Diablo III Introduces New Endgame System, Paragon

@CornBREDX: I agree with you completely. Diablo III is not, at all, a bad game, but there's nothing in it (for reasons you mentioned) that kept me playing. I played Diablo I and II for countless hours, and I'd still go for it today, while with Diablo III I just finished on normal once, finished Act I in the next difficulty and never played it again.

I would like to know more about these stat boots.

Wait... so if you hit the new cap, you'll have gained 300% each of item find and gold find?

Blizzard and its customers are too accustomed to MMOs now. What's wrong with making games where you play until you reach the end, then stop (or start over)? (Besides the lack of continuous income, of course.) If the only reason to continue playing a game is that the numbers get bigger, that's... not any reason at all.

@Turambar said:

@Sparky_Buzzsaw said:

I don't know. It feels like this is a Band-Aid instead of a permanent fix to Diablo 3's end-game. I'm not wholly familiar with the entire list of changes, so maybe this is off-base. But it still feels like Blizzard isn't addressing the core question of if this game exists as a front for the real-life auction house or if it's really the other way around.

The change to legendary items already answers this. 1.0.4 will significantly increase the stats of all new legendary items. However, these changes will not be retroactive. If the game was as conspiracy theorists predicted, a front for the RMAH, retroactive stat changes would only be logical as you'd suddenly have a massive inflation of prices for all preexisting oranges and greens.

Oh, okay, cool! This might finally convince me to take the plunge on the game when I can afford it.

@Gravier251 said:

Hmm, throwing an extra 100 levels in dosn't seem like particularly compelling extra depth. Still dosn't really fix certain underlying issues such as the stats on items being kind of devoid of personality and flavour; It is all just +x dps, +x strength, etc. Nothing wildly varied or unique to have the pleasure of stumbling upon.

Go read the rest of the dev blogs for 1.0.4. This one in particular.

@patrickklepek: You really should add an addendum that this is not the entirety of the 1.0.4 patch, which is actually incorporating changes in core systems, class skills, and equipment stats. Enough people are getting the wrong impression that I think this is warranted.

@flufflogic said:

Wait... so if you hit the new cap, you'll have gained 300% each of item find and gold find?

Yep. It's specifically meant to address the issue of people feeling required to change armor mid fight to maximize Magic Find without making existing Magic Find armor suddenly devalued.

Paragon 100 is essentially lv 160, so it's gonna take you a long, long time unless you really just poop sock it.

@movac said:

Blizzard and its customers are too accustomed to MMOs now. What's wrong with making games where you play until you reach the end, then stop (or start over)? (Besides the lack of continuous income, of course.) If the only reason to continue playing a game is that the numbers get bigger, that's... not any reason at all.

It's 2012 not 1999, games need to evolve. Online games NEED an end game or there really isn't a point in continuing to play unless it's for PVP which isn't added yet. If you want a game where you play till you end then play a non-multiplayer game and yeah you can play this game solo but in reality it's an online RPG. You don't have to do this paragon stuff you can simply finish Act 4 and then stop playing.

The game was designed poorly maybe this will help a little but all I know that I don't know anyone who is still playing the game.

Sounds neat, but really, it's all about establishing a worthwhile treadmill. Not really digging treadmills these days. The fascination of persistent online worlds is lost on me for now, and D3 isn't even close to being a great persistent online multiplayer game.

Man, think what the game could have been... IF 1.0.4 was 1.0! I would still be playing the game! These changes are maybe a little too late, even though a lot of the changes are very needed, cool or logical! For one, changing the worst part of the game: the stupid, illogical and unimaginative elite mob affixes is a great way to start.

But... Everything prior to 1.0.4 feels like a waste now... making it harder for me to get into the game again!

@AnEternalEnigma Can't say that myself, I made triple the costs of the game much by selling crap and recently from selling my actual gear. But I never enjoyed the the game at all.

@planetary said:

I would like to know more about these stat boots.

It's just as it reads: each paragon level gives you the same bonus stats as a regular level increase with the added bonus of 3% Magic find and 3% gold find. The reason this is being kept as a separate system instead of just increasing the level cap as normal, I predict, is that it'll make it easier to negate these stats when pvp is launched.

This just further feels like Diablo 3 was a half-assed game.

@planetary said:

I would like to know more about these stat boots.

It's just as it reads: each paragon level gives you the same bonus stats as a regular level increase with the added bonus of 3% Magic find and 3% gold find. The reason this is being kept as a separate system instead of just increasing the level cap as normal, I predict, is that it'll make it easier to negate these stats when pvp is launched.

"players feel frustrated once they hit level 60 because they no longer feel like they’re making progress"

That's too bad.

I guess wasting precious hours of your life, clicking on things to make them explode, isn't enough "progress" for some people.

Priorities!

Don't worry! Keep playing Diablo, you'll get your progress: it's called "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome".

Fuck that loser.

@Torticoli said:

@GERALTITUDE said:

I don't really have a huge problem with the endgame, but I despise the game's skill system.

I like that you're limited in DII and that you have to make a new character to play a different style. Am I the only person who thinks that was a huge reason that game enjoyed such longevity?

No, you're not the only one. It obviously played a huge part in it. But remember, the people who made and designed DII are not the ones who made and designed DIII. Different vision of game design, and frankly, one is better than the other.

I have to agree. I enjoy being able to switch anything I want on the fly, but at the same time, it fundamentally changes the very nature of the franchise. There's no weight behind any of your decisions. No risk, no reward, just a lot of design decisions made for the sole purpose of mass appeal. It feels shallow.

I had many friends who made a meta game of perfecting specific builds in Diablo II. Like making five different sorcerers, each to conform to a very specific style or purpose. There is certainly something to be said for that kind of heavy duty strategy and planning behind the building of a character.

There are achievements for bringing up multiple characters of the same class up to a certain level in D3, and I have to ask, why? With how the game is designed, there's absolutely no reason to do so other than to play as a different gender. That's not enough to keep me playing more.

It's a shame, because the fundamental feel of the gameplay itself is extremely good. It's just everything around it that doesn't feel like a Diablo game.

This reminds me of The 4th Coming oddly enough.

@HydraHam said:

It's 2012 not 1999, games need to evolve. Online games NEED an end game or there really isn't a point in continuing to play unless it's for PVP which isn't added yet. If you want a game where you play till you end then play a non-multiplayer game and yeah you can play this game solo but in reality it's an online RPG. You don't have to do this paragon stuff you can simply finish Act 4 and then stop playing.

What in the nature of multiplayer RPGs means that they need to continue indefinitely? And how does making the numbers continue to increase make the game worth continuing? As I understand it the Paragon system doesn't introduce any new challenges to overcome, it just allows you to make your avatar even more powerful, which (lacking PVP) only serves to make the existing challenges (which presumably you've already cleared) easier.

I don't fucking get this "end-game" crap. Is the worst problem with Diablo 3 really the fact that you couldn't monotonously grind through exactly the same campaign hundreds of times over to get a greater number of suffixes? If you enjoyed it the first five times through, be glad you did, uninstall the damn thing, and keep the fond memories of compulsive insanity.

This paragon system is not bad, it actually seems pretty neat even, but it is not at all what D3 needs most. D3 needs more legitimate content to actually utilize this system with; the endgame at the moment is entirely unfocused and, with the emphasis being on finding and killing the not-usually-fun-to-fight rare spawns instead of a specific dungeon or boss (ex: cow/Baal runs in D2), there just isn't much point to this.

Between D2's fast-paced, somewhat-ninja-looting-encouraging grind (and its later 'Uber' boss additions) and the upcoming Path of Exile's rather awesome endgame map system, D3's endgame just feels extremely lacking and simply dull; it has a lot of catching up to do, both to be on par with the old and to challenge the new.

@Turambar: Do you work for Blizzard or something?

So here's what I'm getting from all this:

• Paragon is just adding 100 more levels to the game in terms of your core stats increasing, but there's nothing past the level 63 gear itself now? In turn, what the fuck does weapon damage even end up mattering since you'll hit Paragon 100 and the stats you gain will most likely offset at least 40% of the raw weapon damage bullshit that has been the problem of the game? Oh wait...
• They are giving ilvl61 and ilvl62 weapons the ability to roll all the way up to ilvl63 damage? Right, because ilvl63 damage rolls are RELIABLE! -___- Anyone wanna take a guess how many ilvl63 weapons I would get to drop...and how many of them were only at 700dps? Fucking please.
• They are getting rid of the Invulnerable minion affix...FINALLY? After, what MONTHS UPON MONTHS of people claiming how incredibly unfair that affix was in the first place because of the other affixes that randomly generate...and then they narrowed the types of affixes that would appear on certain mobs to being two forms of CC and a form of nuke per mob? CONGRATULATIONS! YOU FINALLY LISTENED TO THE COMMUNITY! ONCE!
• After months upon months of saying "we want to work on offering more build diversity", you made a bunch of changes that killed build diversity...and now you are saying (specifically with Barbarians) "well, ya know...Rend and HotA and Bash and Cleave and literally every skill that isn't Revenge, Frenzy, Ignore Pain, and three or four others suck...and we're finally owning up to that, so we're going to buff them...but it won't matter because you aren't changing specs anytime soon"? THAT WAS YOUR ANSWER?!
• Wait wait wait...you actually have a picture of The Three Hundredeth Spear with a quote below it saying " Some people want to try out a ranged barb. We think that's awesome. Here you go."...after all the shit-talking you did about people playing ranged barb and even going so far as to say you were going to nerf Weapon Throw because of it?

Seriously, Blizzard just thoroughly disappoints me nowadays. Does everything they are posting up seem cool? Yeah, in some way, it does...but it's too little too late for me. I put my time in. They dumped out 1.0.3 like a sack of hot potatoes that weren't completely cooked. When people complained about it EN MASSE, Blizzard's response was to have their fucking moderators on the forums troll their customers and act like assholes, going so far as to flat-out tell people they are bad players and should uninstall the game...

...and now they offer up 1.0.4 as, what, some kind of fucking amends?

Sorry. I'm already on Path of Exile, and I am not leaving anytime soon. That game dropkicks Blizzard's bullshit, puts it in a chokehold, then Texas Cloverleaf's it until they fucking tap...and while Blizzard is tapping, Grinding Gear Games just keeps going while the ref is knocked out stone cold on the fucking mat...for days on end.

I already uninstalled the game from my computer months ago. I have no plans on putting that 11GB piece of shit back on the hard drive. Blizzard got my money. En...fucking...joy.

Man, this just makes me remember what a hugely disappointing product Diablo 3 was. This seems like a neat addition for people who are still playing, but my time with the game left me too soured to be interested in jumping back in for any reason.

I don't fucking get this "end-game" crap. Is the worst problem with Diablo 3 really the fact that you couldn't monotonously grind through exactly the same campaign hundreds of times over to get a greater number of suffixes?

So no new content with this? Won't this just trivialize the harder difficulties and make your not even matter because your stats will be crazy high at level 160. Seems like a weird solution.

@CornBREDX: @Jace: Nope, I currently work as a student teacher in Wisconsin.

I'm specifically responding to people because the article reports on the latest dev blog for 1.0.4, leading many to have commented that they wish it also did x and y, when in fact 1.0.4 does attempt to address x and y, and but isn't included in what Patrick wrote. I never knew keeping people informed was only allowed for company employees.

@movac said:

@HydraHam said:

It's 2012 not 1999, games need to evolve. Online games NEED an end game or there really isn't a point in continuing to play unless it's for PVP which isn't added yet. If you want a game where you play till you end then play a non-multiplayer game and yeah you can play this game solo but in reality it's an online RPG. You don't have to do this paragon stuff you can simply finish Act 4 and then stop playing.

What in the nature of multiplayer RPGs means that they need to continue indefinitely? And how does making the numbers continue to increase make the game worth continuing? As I understand it the Paragon system doesn't introduce any new challenges to overcome, it just allows you to make your avatar even more powerful, which (lacking PVP) only serves to make the existing challenges (which presumably you've already cleared) easier.

It needs to continue because outside of PVP there is nothing for players to do, again. It's 2012 not 1999, we live in a generation where gamers want to keep playing and keep progressing and that's just where we are with gaming. It's why the FPS genre has changed so drastically over the past 5-6 years with leveling, perks and constant progression and unlocks. Gamers want to keep going not stop 4 hours into the game and be done with it. That stuff is there for the people who want to just experience the core of the game and they add this so the hardcore players will be able to keep playing and keep progressing instead of throwing the game aside and moving elsewhere.

It's business and it's the state of online gaming. Online gaming has progressed and i love it.

I just don't care much about D3 anymore. Good for the people that don't have tons of other games to play I guess. :D

@CornBREDX said:

@Turambar: Let's be fair here, as well. If they wanted the game to have lasting appeal, why would they be looking into this stuff now after being in development 6 years or whatever it was? Telling me that is the state of modern game releases is not something you want to say. That is sad if that is considered an acceptable answer. It's one thing if you're patching bugs (not acceptable but at least fixable now a days) but searching for ways to correct intentional fundamental design decisions? Blizzard did not at all fail at making a great game, but a game with lasting appeal I feel they missed the mark this time. That was the point of my response to this article, and I stand by that.

Specifically on this point, here's my assumption which has no grounding on facts. It's a development philosophy that is carrying over from SC2 where major balance and mechanic changes can and will still happen after the actual launch. Whether this is ok or not, and in what situation, is of course up to the individuals.

@vhold said:

Keep in mind that one of the main appeals of the Diablo series is that it's fundamentally a big complicated slot machine. Playing the game is like pulling that lever. If the rewards aren't coming out often enough, or aren't satisfying, people will lose their addiction. That's what Blizzard is working on. Those kinds of players, who want to be hooked on the gambling aspect of the game, consider the end-game to be when the game really begins, everything up to that point is just a time investment, a barrier to entry that gives their winnings a feeling of value. Blizzard has to retain players if they want to keep making money on having a big enough community to draw new players, make money on the auction house, and sell expansions.

This is probably where the disconnect is. I look at a game as a set of challenges to be overcome. Those challenges can be discrete challenges designed by the developers, they can be the challenge of defeating an opponent or enemy team, or they can be the repeated besting of records (times, scores, whatever). In a good game, the act of playing is so fun that you'll want to face those challenges repeatedly. (What gamer doesn't have a game they replay every year or 2?)

Finding loot with the right color and a long name is good insomuch as it helps me beat those challenges. But loot and progression for its own sake? Might as well play Progress Quest.

@kerse said:

So no new content with this? Won't this just trivialize the harder difficulties and make your not even matter because your stats will be crazy high at level 160. Seems like a weird solution.

Well, most of your stats are going to be coming from equipment, not your inherent character stats, so I doubt the bonus stats will suddenly make the game dramatically easier. That and D2's lv 99 cap and its lack of inferno difficulty didn't really keep people from playing it despite the rather trivial difficulty either, so I doubt difficulty is going to play much of a factor in terms of lasting appeal.

@Turambar said:

@CornBREDX: @Jace: Nope, I currently work as a student teacher in Wisconsin.

I'm specifically responding to people because the article reports on the latest dev blog for 1.0.4, leading many to have commented that they wish it also did x and y, when in fact 1.0.4 does attempt to address x and y, and but isn't included in what Patrick wrote. I never knew keeping people informed was only allowed for company employees.

Well keeping people informed is one thing. However, defending a game in extreme detail repetitively within the same thread is another.

@movac said:

@vhold said:

Keep in mind that one of the main appeals of the Diablo series is that it's fundamentally a big complicated slot machine. Playing the game is like pulling that lever. If the rewards aren't coming out often enough, or aren't satisfying, people will lose their addiction. That's what Blizzard is working on. Those kinds of players, who want to be hooked on the gambling aspect of the game, consider the end-game to be when the game really begins, everything up to that point is just a time investment, a barrier to entry that gives their winnings a feeling of value. Blizzard has to retain players if they want to keep making money on having a big enough community to draw new players, make money on the auction house, and sell expansions.

This is probably where the disconnect is. I look at a game as a set of challenges to be overcome. Those challenges can be discrete challenges designed by the developers, they can be the challenge of defeating an opponent or enemy team, or they can be the repeated besting of records (times, scores, whatever). In a good game, the act of playing is so fun that you'll want to face those challenges repeatedly. (What gamer doesn't have a game they replay every year or 2?)

Finding loot with the right color and a long name is good insomuch as it helps me beat those challenges. But loot and progression for its own sake? Might as well play Progress Quest.

That's a perfectly valid viewpoint. But different strokes, etc etc etc. (And despite apparently being an undercover Blizzard employee, I agree with your take on games of this type. My enjoyment of games of this type only comes from being able to play with friends. The loot treadmill itself is rather irrelevant to my interests in Diablo.)

Pretty excited for this patch, honestly. Seems like a bundle of smart changes to the game.

@vhold said:

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

I don't fucking get this "end-game" crap. Is the worst problem with Diablo 3 really the fact that you couldn't monotonously grind through exactly the same campaign hundreds of times over to get a greater number of suffixes?

Keep in mind that one of the main appeals of the Diablo series is that it's fundamentally a big complicated slot machine. Playing the game is like pulling that lever. If the rewards aren't coming out often enough, or aren't satisfying, people will lose their addiction. That's what Blizzard is working on. Those kinds of players, who want to be hooked on the gambling aspect of the game, consider the end-game to be when the game really begins, everything up to that point is just a time investment, a barrier to entry that gives their winnings a feeling of value. Blizzard has to retain players if they want to keep making money on having a big enough community to draw new players, make money on the auction house, and sell expansions.

I understand that from Blizzard's perspective, this sort of no-progress progression might as well be a cash-printing operation. What I can never understand is people complaining about not having enough incentive to do the same thing over and over. If fun is no longer part of the process, they might as well go do something that is fun.

i like diablo 3. i like it a lot. that is all.

@Jace said:

@Turambar said:

@CornBREDX: @Jace: Nope, I currently work as a student teacher in Wisconsin.

I'm specifically responding to people because the article reports on the latest dev blog for 1.0.4, leading many to have commented that they wish it also did x and y, when in fact 1.0.4 does attempt to address x and y, and but isn't included in what Patrick wrote. I never knew keeping people informed was only allowed for company employees.

Well keeping people informed is one thing. However, defending a game in extreme detail repetitively within the same thread is another.

I think we both know how the comment sections of articles like this works. You make a comment, and for the most part, you leave and don't come back. So if I see a misconception, I'll address it individually. Sure I can send PMs, but the quote/reply button is much easier.

This is great but unfortunately the 200+ hours I played past level 60 on my main character is still a waste.

I understand that from Blizzard's perspective, this sort of no-progress progression might as well be a cash-printing operation. What I can never understand is people complaining about not having enough incentive to do the same thing over and over. If fun is no longer part of the process, they might as well go do something that is fun.

@ThePickle: That made me chuckle.

@Dark_Lord_Spam said:

I understand that from Blizzard's perspective, this sort of no-progress progression might as well be a cash-printing operation. What I can never understand is people complaining about not having enough incentive to do the same thing over and over. If fun is no longer part of the process, they might as well go do something that is fun.

Yeah, that's something that I found weird! And it's not just the complaining, it's the indignant complaining. Like "How dare you not provide me with a reason to ditch my friends and family for the next 20 weeks. FOR SHAME. FOR SHAME."

When I found out that the game would not be a series of killing Belial over and over every 5 minutes, and getting showered with .... mostly vendor trash, I was a little bummed, but then I got a new game. I don't resent D3, or Blizzard for that matter, for not providing me the experience I hoped for (and for what it's worth, I'm not 14 anymore, I don't have that "Never talk to anyone, ever. Just try to get those effing Uniques!" drive I once did. Probably would've got bored.) I just stopped playing.

Man these comments are starting to look like WoW forums. Not saying people shouldn't complain, it's just the level of melodrama that doesn't belong here. I dunno why anyone has a problem with RMAH, so what if they take 30%, it's a fucking virtual sword you found in their game that they are allowing you to sell to some retard for hundreds of dollars! There were tons of D2 items sites back in the day (probably still some) and loads of people went to shady ones and got hacked.

I quit at level 36. Just don't get what people see in it.

I'm all about this patch. Tying magic find to gear always seemed flawed to me. But oh man, are there people who disagree.

Hm, I don't know. It seems like more of a bandaid. What happens when you get to Paragon level 100? I don''t know what made Diablo II's endgame so appealing, so I don't know how they really fix that. It just seems that adding more levels is a cheap way to do it.

Hm, I don't know. It seems like more of a bandaid. What happens when you get to Paragon level 100? 

The time to reach the upper Paragon levels approximates the long-term time investment required to get a level 99 character in Diablo II.

if you reach lv 60, that's 60$ well spend in my book.

I can't recall the last game I finished more then 3 times (excluding Dark/Demon's Souls)

So basically what happened is that Diablo III launched with a set of features and design that was meant to eschew some of the design decisions they made in II, and now it looks like they're rolling all of that back in with the changes to Legendary items and the paragon mode. Not that I'm complaining -- all of these re-additions provide a positive benefit to the game -- but it's just odd that they're now just going back in to re-implement features that were once considered flawed or old.