Gaming's Women Raise Sexism Awareness With #1reasonwhy Movement on Twitter

"one of gaming's most memorable protagonists regardless of gender"

Faith was not a memorable character, what exactly was so memorable about her? How many people were talking about her a month after Mirror's Edge came out, and how much of what was being said wasn't talking about her specifically as a female character? I hate to come down on you and split hairs over something so minor, especially because I respect your intentions with this article, but I think that statement amounts to little more than flattery on your part, Patrick.

I think men understand these problems, but at least for me, all I can say is:

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

@jozzy said:

@SpicyRichter said:

It's funny this is such a big deal when women in the middle east aren't even allowed to show their faces outside the home. Maybe some of this energy should be put into fighting for their rights?

There are places where kids have to work 10 hours a day for a few bowls of rice, maybe some energy should be put into fighting for their rights? Oh wait no, there are places where people die because of hunger, all energy should be put into that. Do you see how dumb that argument is?

I think he was trying to get people to gain a little perspective on the situation. The way some people react to these types of issues you would think that people are dying. Of course it's a silly argument but it's still an interesting point to consider.

But then again you could say this about pretty much anything like "Hey as long as people aren't dying it's not a big deal" and in that case nothing would ever get done. At the same time though I think outright dismissal of his point is dumb also. Why not take a moment to reflect on how great our lives are in the grand scheme of things before we dive into fighting social injustice. Perspective never hurt anybody.

@Arx724 said:

@martyarf said:

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Again, why should I care?

I mean if the issue doesn't bother you and you don't in fact care than you're right, there really isn't a reason for you to care. People are so quick to judge one another they assume that if you don't care about sexism that happens in the games industry that makes you a horrible person.

I tend to believe that everybody has things about them that make them horrible, and things that make them good. I'm sure the people judging you because you don't care have plenty of skeletons in their closet that you can judge them on. So we will all just continue to judge each other, have our own problems and solutions, and continue to be living, breathing human beings with our own unique perspectives and personalities. Frankly I prefer that to this mythical utopia where everybody thinks the exact same about everything.

Straight up - I have no goddamn idea how to deal with this stuff. I feel like I'm being made to feel guilty for things that other people have done and then feel shitty about myself that that's my gut reaction to this sort of thing. I try not to be an awful person.

@martyarf said:

@Arx724 said:

@martyarf said:

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Again, why should I care?

If you don't care about the marginalisation of half the world's population, then congrats on your sociopathic diagnosis.

Serious question. Since you care about this issue so much I'm curious as to what you have done in an attempt to help these issues? It's entirely possible that you actually do things to help, but overall I tend to think that caring about an issue and doing nothing about it is just as bad as not caring at all. Caring helps nobody, action does.

For example, suicide prevention is an important thing to me, so every year I try to donate money to some various charities and such to help out a little bit. But I'm not going to judge somebody that doesn't care about suicide prevention, and try and tell them that makes them a horrible person. Everybody is different.

http://www.fmvmagazine.com/?p=13391

“At the end of the day I am the work I produce, not a pair of boobs,” she said. “It’s individuals who may or may not be sexist, and those are folks who reside in the broader ‘asshole’ category that applies to all things, not just games.

end of discussion, some people are assholes, most are not. Patrick jumped the gun on this.

Most of the comments Patrick posted would apply to the workplace in general, and at the very least aren't exclusive at all to the video game world. I'm sure there are some distinct problems with being a female game designer, but there are with lots of other jobs too. I'm sympathetic to anyone who's being treated unfairly, and there's no doubt that video games generally treat women like pieces of jiggly meat, and that attitude probably spills over into the development world a bit, but the same could be said for working in advertising or sales. Long story short, I'm sure there are some problems, but Patrick seems to spend so much energy dwelling on this, you get the impression these women are being forced to come to work in bikinis or something. I think it's being blown up a bit.

@MarkJW said:

@SmashingTimes: @SmashingTimes said:

@MarkJW said:

@poperamone said:

I've worked in games for a few years and had struggled to see what all the fuss was about, until I attended gamescom this year. I was utterly shocked and a little disgusted at at how some of my colleagues where treated. Not by spotty kids on the show floor but by supposed adults and professionals at the end of show party. Yes there where way more men than women there but it was no excuse for some of the teenage nonsense that was on display. One guy even grabbed a girls hand and 'jokingly' tried to shove it down his trousers, she hadn't even met him.

We are fortunate to work in or follow a creative industry that has been solely the product of innovations of the past 50 years. Its time to start showing it in our approaches to the production of , the way we conduct business in and the way we talk about the art form.

Dude, Gamescom is a shitstorm waiting to happen. I go every couple years (2008 and then this year in 2012, probably won't go again until 2014 or so) and nothing changes other than the location (Cologne is definitely a better location than Leipzig). It's only a trade show for the first two days or so, and even then the admission rules are loose as hell (E3 runs a tight ship compared to Gamescom). Once the doors open to the general public, GC goes straight to hell. People running through the hallways every morning when the doors open just to do some shitty-ass swag, people going nuts for Razer's booth babes.

Oh god, the Razer booth. Just thinking about it dude, I felt uncomfortable standing there with my few German/Austrian buddies. Imagine that, an American on vacation feeling awkward at a sleezy swag-tossing tight t-shirt competition. Impossible, right? Not at Gamescom.

PAX is positively tame compared to GC. I fucking love PAX. I'll go every year even if I'm broke and homeless. Especially if I'm broke and homeless.

Still puritans after all these years.

You're probably right. I'm probably too sensitive. I'd rather be ogling an unreleased game than a lady after travelling somewhere around 4500 miles. Weird, huh? Fuck me.

As strange as it may sound is that chaos of the show floor is more excusable in some way to me. Alot of the people on the public days are kids or young adults so perhaps don't have the social skills to know how to behave in those situations as well. The point was I was at an after hours event, with apparently industry professionals. The socially retarded kids running around the show floor need to look to the people working with, creating and writing about their hobby and see that that behavior is not acceptable.

Oh god The razer booth was jaw dropping, I didn't understand it one bit. I remember laughing at how ridiculous is was. I've not been fortunate enough to get to pax yet but what I have seen in the press and anecdotally events like pax, euro gamer and rezzed are the future. That's what I want to be a part of!

@Onkel_Apan said:

http://www.fmvmagazine.com/?p=13391

“At the end of the day I am the work I produce, not a pair of boobs,” she said. “It’s individuals who may or may not be sexist, and those are folks who reside in the broader ‘asshole’ category that applies to all things, not just games.

end of discussion, some people are assholes, most are not. Patrick jumped the gun on this.

That's an interesting take on things, and I agree with her. I think the focus on the games industry is wrong, I have a hard time believing sexism is worse there than in any other field of engineering or other male dominated field of work. That doesn't mean the problem isn't real though, and needs to be discussed. This is a form of sexism I really dispise.

It's when people start complaining about booth babes and having attractive female characters in games, that's when I lose interest. Oh. And when someone brings up "rapeculture".

I'm just as sick of the sexist nature of the video game industry, and any group mostly dominated by men, as anyone else. But this article doesn't accomplish a damn thing, and barely even qualifies as an 'article' to begin with. It's just a group of tweets and Patrick putting another pandering pip in his progressive collar.  
 
You want to combat sexism? Great! Do it with your own behavior in actual real life situations. Do it when you're on camera. Stand up to people when you think they're being sexist. Put together a serious news feature about sexism that doesn't consist of hashtags. I appreciate what you're trying to do here, Patrick, but you haven't done a goddamn thing to seriously combat sexism aside from halfhearted articles like this and the occasional tweet to make yourself feel better.  
 
It's a classic show, don't tell, problem. People might take the sexism stuff seriously if, instead of being demagogic about it, you were doing something about it.

If you don't care about the topic, why post? And how in God's name does the inequity in gaming culture translate to you feeling that the guilt is being heaped on you b/c you're a guy? I haven't read thru all these posts, but some of the shit being posted in here is ridiculous.

@dr_mantas said:

I think men understand these problems, but at least for me, all I can say is:

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

You are too awesome for this place.

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

@ManMadeGod said:

@Indarys said:

The solution, thus, is to stop making products that appeal to only one gender. If all games appealed equally to both genders, both genders would likely be interested in being in the industry. The a whole new set of issues crops up, of course, in turning a homogenous industry into a diverse one. That's a whole different ball of wax, of course, but we aren't even at that bridge yet. You'd think that games like The Sims or World of Warcraft that do a good job of appealing to both genders would be what the industry -wants- to go for, since you're basically doubling your market, but as it stands, we still have the industry dominated by shootan games and D&D nerd battle babes. Instead of blaming men as a whole for something that's a product of their environment, the focus should be on changing the environment. Telling someone "If you like scantily clad women you're part of the problem" is going to hurt more than help--men like scantily clad women because they've been indoctrinated from birth to do so. They're as much victims of their environment as women who feel the need to diet and preen like supermodels. Fix the environment, you fix the problem. Get angry at people, and you are not only victim blaming, but making the problem worse.

Why would you want all games to be gender neutral? No other industry does this. Shampoo, novels, film, watches, plastic covers for your cell phone. Women and men are different. It's fine to have games target different audiences.

I have no problem with more diversity (games need it). But the idea that a game such as Dead or Alive is inherently bad because it targets a male audience confuses me.

This is a great point, and I completely agree.

@Marokai said:

I'm just as sick of the sexist nature of the video game industry, and any group mostly dominated by men

I agree with the rest of your post but here it seems like you imply that only men are sexist.

Also, how is the video game industry sexist?

I do agree that there are occasions where sexism takes place, with men or women as victims. However, the portrayal of specific characters in stereotypical or exaggerated, unrealistic ways is not fueled by sexism and it is unfair to label the whole industry as such.

Both male and female characters are "victims" of such portrayals. Am I to believe that a sexist group people conspire to opress men when the majority of male video game protagonists are muscular, sweaty, dirty, one-line thrower, murderer meatheads?

I think people are seriously grasping at straws.

@Draxyle said:

What's even worse is the people completely dismissive of the problem; many completely missing the point.

It is a problem with culture, and everyone has a part in it. Standing back and doing nothing or denying that there is an issue at all is exactly why it's still prolific today.

I don't understand your point. There are literally dozens even hundreds even thousands of problems and issues that people think about and deal with every single day. Just because this one problem isn't as important to them as something else doesn't make them bad.

For example this issue to me isn't high on my priority list of issues that I deal with or do something about simply because of the priorities in my life. If you think that makes me a horrible person than OK, but I would encourage you to think about the issues and problems in the world that you personally don't spend time considering or thinking about and maybe you'll realize that you aren't really any different than the people that "dismiss" this one particular issue.

Also, may I say that most of the "sexism" in the quotes stems not from some hate against women but from the simple fact that the massive increase of female video game players is quite recent.

You can't imagine the sarcastic/teasing comments I earned when I started dancing 5 years ago.

I was a bearded football player and, being the only tree trunk (that's how flexible I was) in a group of 20 excellent, female dancers, was quite awkward at first.

I didn't start crying about it on the internet because that's how human beings work. They form groups and question outsiders who are different and do not share the same characteristis which is, if you ask me, quite natural and healthy.

Both women and men will have to compromise stuff when that happens.

Feminists like Anita Sarkeesian (sp?) besically want to kickforce the aforementioned process of acceptance and this only serves to increase the gap and hostility against prettty much everyone.

Now, when it comes to actual discrimination against someone's rights, be they man or woman, I'm all out against it.

@kalparun said:

I didn't start crying about it on the internet because that's how human beings work. They form groups and question outsiders who are different and do not share the same characteristics...

That. Pretty damn standard human nature stuff but people act like it's some kind of newly developed atrocity or something.

@Kierkegaard said:

@Archaen said:

@Kierkegaard said:

@Terramagi said:

I guess it really comes down to this: if women are treated differently from men, you're sexist. If they're treated the same as men, you're a misogynist.

What are you talking about? If someone is treated as less of a person because she is a woman, she is experiencing sexism, as the women in the twitter hashtag are exemplifying. That's it. That's the only if, then statement here.

What he's referring to is the phenomenon of many feminist women saying they want to be treated as equal but then also wanting men to open doors for her and pay for dinner and drinks. It's incredibly common. Treating a woman as an actual equal isn't really considered enough with many feminists. You need to treat them as equals in some situations and as delicate, wonderful flowers in other situations. The end result is that the woman wants to be treated overall better than a man would be.

That's a trumped up, unreal phenomenon. Feminists, with whom I try to include myself but feel that I have much to learn, present themselves and their beliefs far better than you appear to. Doesn't make anyone above criticism. Does mean that criticism should come from a real place, not a fabricated fear.

It is neither trumped up nor unreal. It is a daily occurrence for many men to meet or deal with women who think that way. Just because your feminist friends and writers you've read don't think that way doesn't mean many, many women do.

I find it sad that everytime someone, usually a female, bring up sexism there is always tons of men saying there is no sexism, they just need to adapt. I think that says a lot about the whole issue.

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

@Archaen said:

@Kierkegaard said:

@Archaen said:

@Kierkegaard said:

@Terramagi said:

I guess it really comes down to this: if women are treated differently from men, you're sexist. If they're treated the same as men, you're a misogynist.

What are you talking about? If someone is treated as less of a person because she is a woman, she is experiencing sexism, as the women in the twitter hashtag are exemplifying. That's it. That's the only if, then statement here.

What he's referring to is the phenomenon of many feminist women saying they want to be treated as equal but then also wanting men to open doors for her and pay for dinner and drinks. It's incredibly common. Treating a woman as an actual equal isn't really considered enough with many feminists. You need to treat them as equals in some situations and as delicate, wonderful flowers in other situations. The end result is that the woman wants to be treated overall better than a man would be.

That's a trumped up, unreal phenomenon. Feminists, with whom I try to include myself but feel that I have much to learn, present themselves and their beliefs far better than you appear to. Doesn't make anyone above criticism. Does mean that criticism should come from a real place, not a fabricated fear.

It is neither trumped up nor unreal. It is a daily occurrence for many men to meet or deal with women who think that way. Just because your feminist friends and writers you've read don't think that way doesn't mean many, many women do.

And let's not forget, when you're trying to make something equal with the other, you either support the weak or take away from the strong.

When you apply the latter approach to a group's social provileges, you dramatically deteriorate society's quality as a whole and that's exactly what I think the modern, tweeter age feminists are doing.

For example, when you're trying to forcibly shake away the dominance of males in the video game's industry, instead of trying to gradually and naturally become a part of it, people are going to get upset and hurt each other.

Dear ladies, Instead of wanting current video games to change for you (which will make you and us both unhappy by the result), try and make developers make OTHER video games who appeal to you. It's how free market works. Diversity is a good thing. We can't all enjoy the same stuff.

That way, we all stay pleased and happy.

"Guys must love you."

That's a whole other can of worms, the assumption that guys all want gamer girls.

But yeah, it's really not cool. Not to excuse it, but it's hardly unique to the video game industry. I'd like to think we've made progress over the years, but we definitely still have a long way to go to stamp out these attitudes.

@Kovski said:

I find it sad that everytime someone, usually a female, bring up sexism there is always tons of men saying there is no sexism, they just need to adapt. I think that says a lot about the whole issue.

Usually, the issue isn't that men don't believe in sexism. In 9 out of 10 of those cases you say you see, I usually find that the men "attack" the idea of sexism because the situation brought up by the woman going "OMG sexism" is rarely actually sexism at all.

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

@Kovski said:

I find it sad that everytime someone, usually a female, bring up sexism there is always tons of men saying there is no sexism, they just need to adapt. I think that says a lot about the whole issue.

It happens pretty much anytime a minority in any situation brings up problems that they have. It's a damn shame that anyone thinks that women talking about their experiences dealing with sexism in an industry that is known for sexism are simply "whining".

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

There's a very valid argument that one could make about characters like Duke Nukem or the portrayal of men in the media being harmful to men, which is what I wish people would argue instead of "I didn't say anything about how bad I was treated so I don't see why these women are whining" type of argument that you and others have made. If you experienced something that you felt wasn't right, then speak up, don't try to minimize what these women have gone through.

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

@Onkel_Apan said:

@OneManX said:

treat women with respect, treat people with respect in the workplace.

i give respect to people that deserve my respect. "treat all women with respect"? some of the most hateful, disgusting and selfish people i met has been women. Should i give them respect just because they have a vagina? No, i treat everyone equal and that make feminists hate me when i call them out on their bullshit sometimes. but hey, maybe i should just swallow all the shit that thrown at me just because i am a white male.

To be real... yup.

Just because some people treat you wrong, doesn't men everyone has to measure up to some imaginary test to get some respect. If I meet someone, I say Hi, I smile, I shake hands, if they dont respond back, it doesn't bother me... because I know I did what was right. And keep it moving.

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

"No advance in wealth, no softening of manners, no reform or revolution has ever brought human equality a millimeter nearer."

What I want to know, is why sexism consists exlusively under the purview of women. When they grandly proclaim that to be a women is hard and to be a man is easy, where is the consideration that they demand for themselves? Men are to treat them as equals, I hear you say. Then I ask, what would be considered equality under these conditions? Are men to treat women how they treat other women, as they treat men, as men treat women, as men treat men, or as something brand new, something that goes beyond the sexes, biology, nature and frankly, sense? Ironically, it's the only possibility as we are all, so different and so alike. It's a series of self-aware paradoxes that the majority of people tweeting seems to become utterly oblivious of in their rampaging serial-contrarian complaints. Not only is a state of non-sexism impossible for it is in our genetic code to view the other gender differently, but if such a state is desired, a non-state, so to speak, where all is equal and all is considered and forgotten at once in the brashest form of double-think, then how can we ever achieve it if we go to such lenghts, as seen in these posts, to seperate the two genders as to make one the scape-goat for the state of the other?

We all look at sexism with a frown on our face, for whatever reason we individually feel that it somehow incriminates or incapacitates us, but show me a society, a world, where women and men were treated the very same and I'll show you a world without sentient thought. Sexism seems to be defined as differential behaviour of the two sexes when one takes umbrage and catergorically decides to interpret it as an inherent fault of the other gender. Sexist in itself, the paradoxes are endless.

The thing is that you'd have to be sexless in order not to be sexist for it's all so very subjective, and we are all different due to so many different factors, one of them being sex. So then it's sexist to reform your way of thinking in order to better encompass the other gender and how you treat them for that invites the implication that you think you have to treat them in a softer, more pandering manner for they cannot handle what you have to hand out, thus a sexist notion. It's sexist to ignore them and act in a brusque, stereotypical fashion without consideration of the difference in gender, for to ignore the need of the other, to see them as equally able to take and receive as you might implies that the sensibilities of others are beyond your capacity of understanding and that you so will not go to greater lengths in order to understand what might offend or please the other gender, thus a sexist notion. And it is uniformly sexist to claim that the other gender is beholden, and yes even responsible, for your useless complaints, a sexist notion.

We are different, but we've managed to survive together, for very obvious reasons, for quite some time now. What these women and men seem to fail to understand is that both sides need to give ground, and that said ground will only be given unwillingly, and that finally if achieved, it will accomplish nothing for it's in how we differentiate that the spark of interest, attraction and thus, life itself lies.

This is seriously the most eloquent and reasonable post I've seen on the internet in a looooooong time. Bravo.

@MildMolasses said:

@CaptStickybeard said:

@NoTicket said:

Women in the tech and gaming world need to take responsibility for their image as well. It does not help matters when Veronica Belmont and Felicia Day host a webcast called "Vaginal Fantasy" and Nixie Pixel is posting top down cleavage shots as her profile pics. Many of the foremost "nerdy women" play up their sexuality and play a pivotal part of keeping the industry sexist.

Things aren't really going to move forward until we start to see women that don't talk about being a woman in the gaming industry, but are like Jonathan Blow, creating personal games that they care deeply about.

This is a fantastic point that no one seemed to notice.

There's a difference between choosing to sexualize yourself and being sexualized by others. None of those tweets were complaining about being treated like objects while they were doing cosplay photoshoots

Oh man is it really such a horrible thing that I as a man look at an attractive woman and sexualize her? Men and women sexualize each other aaaaalllll the time it's why the species hasn't died out yet.

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

IM SORRY I RESPONDED, BUT CAN YOU GUYS STOP QUOTING ME?

All I did was like a video >.<

@CarlosTheDwarf said:

#1reasonwhy Because at a games networking event, someone a beta herb whom I was not at all attracted to asked for my business card and proceeded to flirt via text the next morning.

— Kristen Halloran (@anetherealtwist) November 27, 2012

FIFY

Hahahahahaha slow clap...

@Indarys said:

@gogosox82 said:

@Indarys said:

Oh, and please, stop using the tired "You can never understand this because you're a MAN/WHITE/CHRISTIAN/STRAIGHT" line. Being a bigot is not just a white male thing. It's a human thing. If I, as a man, tried to get a job in child care, you bet I'd run into the same kind of discrimination that women in games do. There are whole areas in Japan where it's not only legal, but common, for stores to refuse service to anyone who isn't Japanese. Of course I can understand discrimination. Just because I don't run into it right now, in America, doesn't mean I never had, or I can't.

Then you should have empathy for what some women in the industry go through but you'll never fully understand b/c your not a woman. People look at you and treat you differently b/c of it and therefore can't totally understand what they go through but having being discriminated against will help you empathize with them.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that the way a woman feels for being discriminated against in her vidya game job is somehow different than the way a man feels for being discriminated against in his kiddie care job? It's literally the exact same thing. Women doesn't get some special "super discrimination" that only they ever get, in certain places, it's quite possible to get the exact same thing as a man.

Saying stuff like "You'll never understand" just marginalizes people for no reason at all. It's divisive and dismissive, and hurts the issue more than it helps.

Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? I said you should have empathy since you know what its like to be discriminated against. Also, unless your a woman and have been harassed or discriminated against, no your not gonna be able to have sympathy b/c your not a woman who's been harassed. People have different experiences partially based on their in dentiy ( ie, woman, man, black, white, etc) because of that, its nearly impossible to have sympathy for them, but you can empathize with what they are going through b/c it really sucks what happened to them.

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

to address your points:

i do not think those people who act on video game impulses exist. it's the same bullshit argument that's used on violence in video games. HOWEVER- i do recognize that what we consume is a reflection of the society we live in, and to think otherwise is to deny how the consumer market works. there is an influence- it's breadth and extent is debatable.

i don't think anyone's calling for censorship (i certainly never made a call for it) or the removal of content as the solution- i'm a proponent of games as an artistic medium; developers should be allowed to do or say whatever they want. but they will be held accountable for their statements (implicit or otherwise). if they make an abomination worthy of embarrassment, that should be in the public record. and as you said, "Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content." i absolutely agree- but it also doesn't mean we should just ignore those aspects of the industry we find repugnant and hope they go away.

as for your second point- i 100% agree. positive examples are the way to go, and vote with your dollars- don't buy the crap that assumes you like prepubescent interpretations of women. and regarding liking "boob and butt shots"...if you're a heterosexual male, chances are you're into those. nothing wrong with that. but i use pornography for that. i don't need it in a game, too.

I think men and women think differently about things and if you are in the minority it is natural that nobody takes you seriously. And yes women do have to argue their points better if they want to get heard in this business. All they can do is do their best to have good ideas and contribute and they will gain respect hopefully.

I wouldn't support any large campaign to stop sexism in the video games industry.

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

@DeviTiffany said:

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

...Girls love Bayonetta. I'm not even joking.

@TooWalrus said:

@DeviTiffany said:

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

...Girls love Bayonetta. I'm not even joking.

As they should, Bayonetta is a fantastic character. She's a strong and resourceful character in her own right, while at the same time being an excellent satire on female tropes in games. Bayonetta is hands down one of my favorite characters this generation.

@DeviTiffany: You're god damn right.

@sissylion said:

@Terramagi: A lot of terrible shit does happen to Leon if you mess up, and I'm sure that Lara Croft can have terrible stuff happen to her. That premiere trailer had her cutting herself off a rope and getting stabbed by a bone when she fell. That's fine.

What isn't fine is Leon, or Isaac, or Marcus Phoenix, or a bevy of other male characters being treated differently than female protagonists. Naughty Dog didn't come out and say that you'll want to "protect" Nate Drake, because you shouldn't. You should want to keep him from eating it so you can keep playing the game, just like how you should want to keep Lara Croft from getting hurt because it means you'll have to restart at the last checkpoint.

The few times that I've been upset by a video game character seeing harm in the terms of story, it's been because those characters were well-written and I had developed some sort of attachment to them, not because I had some Neolithic desire to "keep pretty lady from get hurt."

Naughty Dog originally called Nathan Drake an everyman so that the average male would empathize with him since that's their main audience. Crystal Dynamics is doing the exact same thing, trying to get their audience of males to empathize with their character. Men react very differently to male and female characters, just as women react differently to men and women. Crystal Dynamics decided the best way to get their male players to empathize with a female character was not to say "See? She's just like you!" and to instead say "You should protect her because you like her, don't you?"

To pretend we're all the same and we're even capable of reacting the exact same to both sexes is simply ignoring the realities of how our minds work.

One of the problems with sexism is how one change the situation. Should men be treating women like how men are suppose to act towards other women, towards other men, how women act towards other women or as women act towards other men. In nature, only very few species are a-sexual, which make it problematic to act towards the other sex as "equal" in the fullest meaning of the word. To be completely "equal" is to be completely "sexless" or "a-sexual" which isn't biologically feasible. The subject is must more complex than simple "behave better towards the women of the industry"

Sure Faith is a memorable heroine, but just read the above comments and you'll realize nothing's gonna change in that matter... ^^

Stick to the golden rule: Don't live your lives as dicks. Respect everyone, and it'll be golden. These negative thinking about "it's not going to change" is why we don't have flying cars and not having robot servants. It's people who are too narrow-minded to even give two seconds' worth of their time to think about others.

Empathy. It's what society lacks. It's time we slowly re-learn how to do that.

@Wonloong said:

Stick to the golden rule: Don't live your lives as dicks. Respect everyone, and it'll be golden. These negative thinking about "it's not going to change" is why we don't have flying cars and not having robot servants. It's people who are too narrow-minded to even give two seconds' worth of their time to think about others.

Empathy. It's what society lacks. It's time we slowly re-learn how to do that.

Amen to that, the world is a pretty rotten place, we don't need everybody to make it worse by being assholes.

@VintAge68 said:

Sure Faith is a memorable heroine, but just read the above comments and you'll realize nothing's gonna change in that matter... ^^

What? Faith is a generic asian female who does parkour. She is not remotely memorable.

Heck, even FF3 had more memorable 2D female protagonists than Mirror's Edge or Heavenly Sword.

I love me some Fatih from Mirror's Edge <3

Anyways, yeah, this kinda comportement/attitude toward women is a reason why games won't ever be taken as serious as movies/TV series/books...

@PatrickKlepek Did you return the gift from Tecmo? I would. FUCK them!