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    Dragon Age II

    Game » consists of 16 releases. Released Mar 08, 2011

    This sequel to Dragon Age: Origins features faster combat, a new art style, and a brand new, fully voiced main character named Hawke.

    'Live or Let Die' Puberty of the Dragon Age Franchise

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    Seppli

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    #1  Edited By Seppli

    Having completed the game yesterday night...

      
    ...and haven written a somewhat informative, yet wholly non-entertaining and emotionally detached review on my experiences, I came to the following conclusion about all the ailments haunting Dragon Age 2.
     

    They Are Syntoms of Puberty...


    • It's Bioware's attempt to mature the Dragon Age franchise from the black and white world of the Grey Wardens and Darkspawn and the obvious limitations of their endlessly cycling conflict to a fully fleshed out world with worthwhile narrative beyond fending off its imminent destruction by an ancient evil - hence the game isn't allowing for more than just the most minute influence over the main narrative, which is built to provide lasting change to the social landscape of Thedas - so it's mostly comprised of peripheral narrative with little influence on the greater scheme of events to unfold. While much of the peripheral storytelling is memorable and consequential, it is disjointed from the main narrative and lacks the ability to incite passion for the main storyline.

    • It's an attempt to bring the classic fantasy RPGs inspired by pen and paper games like Dungeons and Dragons to today's audience by adding more active combat mechanics to the gameplay. While I personally embraced the changes made, playing it like a stop motion Ninja Gaiden game on Nightmare difficulty, the general gaming populus didn't find it quite as enjoyable. Combat is neither fish nor fowl. Played on lower difficulty settings it's more akin to a third person action experience mired in layers of RPG artifacts holding it back. On insanity difficulty, many genre trappings don't work as they usually do, due to more active combat. There ain't no such thing as mitigation tanking or a main healer. Crowd control has been extremely de-emphasized.

    • It's all about smart movement and aggro management. Keeping incoming damage on high fortitude characters. It feels like the game has been built around actively playing a warrior, while using the other classes for mere support - which is exactly what I did and thus I had an outstanding combat experience. It's definitely not what rogue or mage players expected out of their experience.

    • It's an attempt to give the franchise more distinctness from generic fantasy fare by adding a more stylized look to its character art and re-vamping various races from the ground up. Horned Qunari and more goatish looking Elves and clean shaven Surfacer Dwarfs - a painless and successful change which hasn't caused an outcry.

    • It's a low-risk production for EA, which obviously didn't go all out financially. Short development cycle and penny-pincher production budget most obviously displayed by the extreme re-hashing of environmental assets. I'm sure Dragon Age 2 is a 'Live or Let Die' production for EA, which isn't quite sure of Dragon Age's further economical sustainability as an active franchise - this insecurity being to its detriment.
     
    All of these are growing pains of a franchise in puberty. Syntoms of growing up. Of finding its own personality. I hope EA finds confidence in Dragon Age - so we'll see another interation of this universe footing on stronger financing. I hope Bioware decides between fish or fowl combat more clearly - personally I'm hoping they're going all-in third person action, de-emphasizing companion control and stats-driven mechanics completely (fuck knockback and fortitude and finicky companion controls) and emphasizing on active movement and dodge and block and parry more. I'd rather tag-team with companions or play companion characters in specifically designed combat scenarios tailored for them rather than having to control a whole group in a game more suited for third person action gameplay.
     
    Despite of all of this circumstance, I did massively enjoy my sixty odd hours in Kirkwall, mainly because I embraced the stop-motion third person action/RPG-hybrid combat mechanics on Nightmare difficulty and had plenty memorable 'by the flesh of my teeth' encounters. I'm hoping to see a fully grown up Dragon Age game knowing exactly what it wants to be with a focused and driven and compelling story to tell and a production budget to back up its promise with a rich assortement of assets.
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    SeriouslyNow

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    #2  Edited By SeriouslyNow

    If you think Origins was black and white you're utterly deluded.  Or you didn't play the game.  The Grey Wardens were not goodly heroes.  They killed their own as part of their rite of passage and they flirted with the darkness of the world so as to fight it better.

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    Seppli

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    #3  Edited By Seppli
    @SeriouslyNow said:

    " If you think Origins was black and white you're utterly deluded.  Or you didn't play the game.  The Grey Wardens were not goodly heroes.  They killed their own as part of their rite of passage and they flirted with the darkness of the world so as to fight it better. "

    While there's lots of grey area subject matter in Origins, such as 'rascism versus elves' or 'rigid social structures of dwarve caste society and its implications', the main narrative is 'Ancient Evil - Darkspawn - versus Vigilant Guardians of all that is Good - Greywardens -'.
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    blackfire83

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    #4  Edited By blackfire83

    I think what is meant more is that the Gray Wardens were obviously the "good guys" (though their methods were not always wholesome) and the Darkspawn were obviously the "bad guys" (no one felt any sympathy for them). There really aren't any bad guys in DA2. Everyone has the motive to do good, they just mess it up somewhere along the way.  
     
    I agree with most of your points, Seppli. However, I feel the combat has made a positive change and would ike to see it continue in that direction. I honestly don't understand all the vitriol that has been tossed around in response to this game. Is it Origins? No. But it's a damn fine game on its own merits, and I feel that's how it should be judged. *shrug* I just hope EA/Bioware don't do anything drastic in response to the perceived community reception to this game. I like it, and I know many people who couldn't get through Origins that like it better than that game. I just want more!
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    SeriouslyNow

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    #5  Edited By SeriouslyNow
    @Seppli said:
    " @SeriouslyNow said:

    " If you think Origins was black and white you're utterly deluded.  Or you didn't play the game.  The Grey Wardens were not goodly heroes.  They killed their own as part of their rite of passage and they flirted with the darkness of the world so as to fight it better. "

    While there's lots of grey area subject matter in Origins, such as 'rascism versus elves' or 'rigid social structures of dwarve caste society and its implications', the main narrative is 'Ancient Evil - Darkspawn - versus Vigilant Guardians of all that is Good - Greywardens -'. "
    Really?  Really.  I think you're talking out of your ass.  The end boss isn't even the Darkspawn but rather an Old God and the Grey Wardens aren't even accepted as heroes of Ferelden but are viewed as crazed zealots to be spoken about in hushed tones.  There's no depth at all in DA 2's story by comparison.  The hardest boss fight is part of a side quest over a damn mine.  Really expert exposition by Bioware.
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    Seppli

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    #6  Edited By Seppli
    @SeriouslyNow said:

    " @Seppli said:

    " @SeriouslyNow said:

    " If you think Origins was black and white you're utterly deluded.  Or you didn't play the game.  The Grey Wardens were not goodly heroes.  They killed their own as part of their rite of passage and they flirted with the darkness of the world so as to fight it better. "

    While there's lots of grey area subject matter in Origins, such as 'rascism versus elves' or 'rigid social structures of dwarve caste society and its implications', the main narrative is 'Ancient Evil - Darkspawn - versus Vigilant Guardians of all that is Good - Greywardens -'. "
    Really?  Really.  I think you're talking out of your ass.  The end boss isn't even the Darkspawn but rather an Old God and the Grey Wardens aren't even accepted as heroes of Ferelden but are viewed as crazed zealots to be spoken about in hushed tones.  There's no depth at all in DA 2's story by comparison.  The hardest boss fight is part of a side quest over a damn mine.  Really expert exposition by Bioware. "
    Never said the main story was any good or that the villains got enough exposition. Just saying the overarching story of Origins was black and white with a clear-set stage, while Dragon Age 2 is not so clear-cut. I also say, this circumstance is to DA 2's detriment - so I share your value assessement.
     
    I'm talking about Bioware's intentions. Not making any grand judgment calls on either game.
     
    Learn to read son. I implore you. It'd help stopping you from talking out of your ass.
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    GrandHarrier

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    #7  Edited By GrandHarrier

    Why would DA:O be a live or let die scenario for EA? To my knowledge the game was actually pretty successful for them, even more so than Mass Effect 2. I could be saying shit out of my ass, but I am almost positive that I read that somewhere. Will see if I can find it.
     
    Edit: Here it is.  http://www.computerandvideogames.com/255062/news/dragon-age-more-popular-than-mass-effect-bioware/

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    Seppli

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    #8  Edited By Seppli
    @GrandHarrier said:

    " Why would DA:O be a live or let die scenario for EA? To my knowledge the game was actually pretty successful for them, even more so than Mass Effect 2. I could be saying shit out of my ass, but I am almost positive that I read that somewhere. Will see if I can find it.  Edit: Here it is.  http://www.computerandvideogames.com/255062/news/dragon-age-more-popular-than-mass-effect-bioware/ "

    It's assumption based upon the half-assed vibe I'm getting from the game, with few assets being re-used over and over again and half of the companions lacking a decent sidequest. It feels like it had a slim budget and was not slated for a prestige production as it well deserves. Stonecold cost versus potential revenue equasion to the detriment of the product and the longterm viability of the franchise. Pretty sure DA:O was exorbitantly expensive in production and thus not a real breadmaker for EA. I understand the economical need for EA to do such things and I still enjoyed the product a lot, yet it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
     
    Here's me hoping Bioware finally creates some kickass creation tools upon a potent modern engine to churn out unique quality assets quickly and stop relying on copy 'n pasting the same handful of environments over and over again. How hard can it be to move away from loading screens laden and boxy-layout maps to more organic and open environments? Opposed to many other games, Bioware games always feel like they're coming out of an old-school content creation tool instead of being lovingly handcrafted - all the while it seems like they cannot create lots of unique environments efficiently and economically.
     
    It's not that big a deal for me, because I appreciate what Bioware does well a lot, but I definitely am increasingly disappointed in the lack of technological progress in their games. DA 2 takes it to a new extreme, with fewer environments than ever being re-used over and over again. It's got to be their content creation tools and their engine which just doesn't allow for quick and efficient and economical creative output.
     
    Heck, there's middleware out there, where you can push a button and it'd procedurally create more and a lot better looking environments without anybody ever moving a finger out of thin air.
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    TheDudeOfGaming

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    #9  Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

    ...How is this grey?They just blurred the moral choices from Good vs Evil to i need 50 gold pieces for the Deep Roads Expedition -.-

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    Aether

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    #10  Edited By Aether
    @TheDudeOfGaming said:
    " ...How is this grey?They just blurred the moral choices from Good vs Evil to i need 50 gold pieces for the Deep Roads Expedition -.- "
    I think that is almost too much of an oversimplification. If you really want to take it that far then they just made the moral choices of Good and Evil in Origins into who do i want to take into a fight with me at the inevitable end. It isn't like you can have the option of not fighting the Archdemon. Just like you don't have the option of not collecting the money to progress the story. Other then just turning off the game before either of those points.
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    nukkajdav

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    #11  Edited By nukkajdav

    A bit of a pretentious "theory" to say DAII wasn't more of DA:O. Regardless, I agree with a lot of what you say. 

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    ryanwho

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    #12  Edited By ryanwho

    Stop trolling DAO to defend DA2, dumbass. You're not smart for settling on an incomplete sequel and preferring it over a game that clearly more effort was put into.

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    TheDudeOfGaming

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    #13  Edited By TheDudeOfGaming
    @ryanwho: I should have just said what you said.
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    Seppli

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    #14  Edited By Seppli
    @ryanwho:@TheDudeOfGaming:@SeriouslyNow: 
     
    You guys suffer from a serious reading disorder. I'm pretty much doing the opposite of what you're wrongly accusing me of. Read my posts or gauge your eyes out, since obviously, they are useless to you and the world.
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    pwnasaurus

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    #15  Edited By pwnasaurus

    game didn't feel epic enough. plus no qunari companion sten was easily the best character from the first game, i want another qunari with me not a final fantasy elf that bitches about everything. 
     
    only epic moment to me was 
     

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    Hailinel

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    #16  Edited By Hailinel
    @pwnasaurus:  Sten was the worst party member in Origins.  He complained about shit more than Morrigan and his facial expressions ranged from "disapproval" to "staunch disapproval."
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    pwnasaurus

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    #17  Edited By pwnasaurus
    @Hailinel said:
    " @pwnasaurus:  Sten was the worst party member in Origins.  He complained about shit more than Morrigan and his facial expressions ranged from "disapproval" to "staunch disapproval." "
    pffft you just didn't understand him hes about getting shit done. did you ever 100 percent befriend sten? i bet not. sten is a boss and thats that.
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    kingzetta

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    #18  Edited By kingzetta

    You know they were called Greywardens not white or black wardens.

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    deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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    @SeriouslyNow said:
    " @Seppli said:
    " @SeriouslyNow said:

    " If you think Origins was black and white you're utterly deluded.  Or you didn't play the game.  The Grey Wardens were not goodly heroes.  They killed their own as part of their rite of passage and they flirted with the darkness of the world so as to fight it better. "

    While there's lots of grey area subject matter in Origins, such as 'rascism versus elves' or 'rigid social structures of dwarve caste society and its implications', the main narrative is 'Ancient Evil - Darkspawn - versus Vigilant Guardians of all that is Good - Greywardens -'. "
    Really?  Really.  I think you're talking out of your ass.  The end boss isn't even the Darkspawn but rather an Old God and the Grey Wardens aren't even accepted as heroes of Ferelden but are viewed as crazed zealots to be spoken about in hushed tones.  There's no depth at all in DA 2's story by comparison.  The hardest boss fight is part of a side quest over a damn mine.  Really expert exposition by Bioware. "
     The Old Gods are corrupted into Archdemons by the Darkspawn, and then serve as to direct the darkspawn in the Blight.  Your lore is spotty.
     
    The Wardens are not viewed as crazed zealots, they're offered the utomost respect by just about everyone involved until Loghain frames them for the death of King Cailan.  The legends of the Wardens are of the savoirs of the world, flying in on their griffons... not a crazed paramilitary order.  Even their current exile in Fereldan due to Warden's Keep has more to do with politics than fear, as King Maric himself respected the Wardens, so much that he fathered Alistair with one of them.
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    Aether

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    #20  Edited By Aether
    @Seppli: 
    I felt the story was fine but to much of it was implied. A couple of throwaway lines to set up the position of the seeker and chantry should have been turned into a more fleshed out accusation of what the champion was thought to have done.  The storytelling as a means of delivering the story is a fine premise but if they had just fleshed out a bit more of the stances of Verric and the seeker it could have really helped out the understanding of the ultimate outcome and where it leads to.

    I agree with most of the points you made. The point of it being black and white with the Grey Wardens and Darkspawn is potentially true. Not that the Grey Wardens during this time period are heralded as great heroes but in the conflict of DA:O for sure it can be viewed that way based solely on those 2 factions and not other choices made by the wardens or your character.
     
    I did my first playthrough as a mage and i felt extremely gimped compared to what my mage could do in Origins. But admittedly i cheesed alot of stuff in origins and just kind of chugged pots. I didn't feel as overpowered but i felt none the less important on my team. 
    Before i started my second playthrough i went back to origins and did as close to a 100% playthrough with a Human noble going through Awakenings-Golems-Witch Hunt and after playing them back to back the combat in 2 didn't seem all that faster. In fact on Nightmare it felt painfully slow compared to Origins nightmare and almost too involved. With almost just not enough to do or without the ability to do it. What i was doing and looking at compared to Origins felt extremely different. Me twirling my stick around for an auto-attack didn't really mean anything was dieing faster. But it did look a ton prettier.  The combat in 2 almost felt like i had to work harder to achieve what i wanted. Which was nice but it could have been smoother. On the normal settings though i think i only died once or twice against the Dragon and the Rock Wraith because i didn't control my party properly and move them away from spell effects. But this is no different than when i could cast the storm spells and then see Oghren run through them to reach a mage across the screen and die.
     
    I don't think this is really a sink or swim title for EA. There is plenty of word of mouth out there from critics giving it fairly positive reviews and users screaming and pulling their hair out over the sound of gnashing teeth. It will probably spark enough interest for people to pick it up themselves and see if they like it or not. Which will net EA some decent bank and allow for furthering the franchise. I don't think this game will be the crux that will decide the future but most likely the next game to see if they want to keep milking the franchise. There will be enough money to make off this one with whatever expansions they decide to pump out and whatever "DLC" they decide to distribute to most likely make at least 1 more game. Hopefully with a longer dev cycle. 

     Origins is clearly a more polished game but i still believe DA2 is vital to the fiction they are setting up. It does feel like a middle chapter where they wanted to branch out a bit but just didn't go far enough perhaps. They had a very well groomed formula for Origins and in trying to re-invent the formula for 2 or even coming up with their own seems like it should have taken more time.
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    Seppli

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    #21  Edited By Seppli
    @Aether: 
     
    I did enjoy many of the smaller sidedish narratives, but the overarching storyline felt just way too loose. Evidently that's because Hawke doesn't participate in the large scheme of things out of volition. All of it is accidental circumstance. As Hawke is stumbling from one chapter into the next - I feel like Bioware is fumbling and dropping the ball, as in losing my interest. Retreading the same environmental assets over and over again doesn't help keeping my attention either.
     
    In the end, what I'd need the most would be a decisive moment setting up a clear-cut bad guy. 'Seek and destroy' is the usual modus operandi for videogame narratives. Dragon Age 2 never offered me clarity of purpose; a gamble which didn't pay off - at least I didn't appreciate it as much as the classic blueprint of 'This dude is evil. This are his evil stooges. Kill him and each and every of his evil associates. Because you are good and they are bad'.
     
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    Aether

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    #22  Edited By Aether
    @Seppli: 
     
    I think Hawke sort of fits the "accidental hero" archetype. Right time and place type of thing. I enjoyed it focusing on him and Kirkwall. It was a different approach to how rpgs kind of involve the whole world. This was a small story with larger implications. 
    Definitely agree with the bad guy thing for videogames. It is hard to appreciate when there are countless other games who can consistently nail it on the head since it seems a basic formula but i liked how they set up their factions. The payoff wasn't nearly as good as it should have been but that i will discuss in regards to your spoiler.
     
     

     
    I would have liked to see a more fleshed out ending but i really enjoyed what they game brought me. I like that they changed things and at least attempted to shake up the regular formula for these types of rpg's. People will enjoy it to varying degrees or absolutely hate it judging by this forum but it still has me heavily invested to see the continuing adventures of Hawke and possible tie in with the Hero of Ferelden. Maybe even adressed in a proper expansion like awakenings an Awakening type of experience. Or just where the hell Hawke decided to go when he peaced the fuck out.
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    Seppli

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    #23  Edited By Seppli
    @Aether: 
     
     
    The characters carrying the game's narrative climax on their shoulders haven't gotten enough exposition. If they were introduced much sooner and would have gotten more exposition than DA 2's companion characaters, they could have grounded the experience and might have held the narrative strings together. Sadly, they are testament to the detachment of the overarching storyline from the rest of the game.
     
    A crass oversight and worth of explicit reprimand.
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    project343

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    #24  Edited By project343
    @SeriouslyNow: There is no nuance to the Dragon Age: Origins main plot (in particular, with regards to the morality division). The nuance of Origins is in the sideplots that exist as a result of this simplistic overarching story. Your 'exploration' of the lore is turning into straw grasping. The Darkspawn is inherently evil, and the Grey Wardens are inherently good--political debate aside (over right to exercise power, etc.). There is an impending doom, and this is the backdrop for the smaller stories that follow. 
     
    Dragon Age II, however, elaborates on many of core moral debates that were only briefly explored in Origins. These become integral aspects of the plot, and I think that this can only be achieved in the narrowed setting. I do hope that BioWare finds a way to maintain scope without sacrificing such things. Even Mass Effect 2 struggled with this.
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    CaptainCody

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    #25  Edited By CaptainCody

    I feel like out of all of this, anyone trying to defend this game's lore is blind. It's a typical fantasy archetype Which LOTS and TES have done far better. At this point it seems like Bioware doesn't give a fuck about DA's lore, as long as it can make a competent enough story for a game they're just gonna roll with it.
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    SeriouslyNow

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    #26  Edited By SeriouslyNow
    @project343:  I guess you missed the naming convention of the Grey Wardens.  They exist in a morally grey area outside of the law.  DA 2's lore is not more adept at describing grey areas at all and in fact many of the decisions made by you and your party throughout the game run entirely contra to what you and your party are meant to stand for.  Do not confuse poor writing and unresolved/unexplained character growth with Bioware attempting to add more depth to the game's lore. 
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    01wilsonj

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    #27  Edited By 01wilsonj

    I think number three should have another five years dev cylce like the first game and come out on the next gen of consoles, i dont think you can make a dragon age in two years but then again mass effect 2 was dont in two and that is epic.

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