Kamitani responds to Kotaku criticism of the characters.

Yeah, but hentai fucking sucks. This art style is really good and I think this character is very appealing, and there is nothing wrong with that. I prefer seeing sexy fully-clothed and relatively innocent Japanese art and animation in a game rather than in some demon rape hentai. The existence of one does not negate the existence of the other.

They're human. They're Serans in the same way that humans on Earth are Earthlings.

@hailinel: True enough, but they're not our humans, leaving them a different species. Even the stranded are bigger than us. 'Tis the way of Sera.

I was not aware of that fact but for all intents and purposes they are humans so my point still stands.

these anime ladies are also considered humans too.

I'm just saying that the "burly oiled white male" protagonist rarely, if ever gets to the extreme that the excessively buxom japanese woman character type gets to.

Also i'm not 8 years old stop talking to me like I am?

@snail said:

There are no angels and no one's being attacked, the painting is just of a bunch of witches flying around, it's inspired by a part of Goethe's Faust.

What makes a power fantasy less "artistically expressive" than anything else?

@snail said:

This is not true though, in this painting (as in pretty much all classical paintings of nude women) the women are nude simply because it's nice to look at.

So why are portrayals of attractive women purely for the sake of their beauty a problem in this game but not in classical paintings?

@animasta: I was unaware I was treating you like a child, nor was it my intention.

You need to stop being so inflammatory all the time.

edit: to your point, I in no way can realistically become the size of James Vega, the same as I can't Marcus Fenix, the same as most women cant become witches.

That's really not how that works. Humans are humans regardless what planet they've colonized. And the fact is that the Gears of War designers gave the men in those games a bizarre musculature.

I was tickled by the immaturity of the response and don't really have an issue with the character design in Dragon's Crown, hell, I actually like the ridiculous look of basically everything in that game. I also think Schreier needs to save his soapbox for something that actually matters, the Sorceress has ridiculous breasts, woop-de-fucking-doo.

@rebgav: You are giving this guy way, way, way too much credit.

@hailinel: The women are also giant, not just the men.

@canteu:

I was hardly being inflammatory. I was having a discussion about the body types of western video games and I was trying to have a nice discussion when he decided to handwave all my points with some dumb straw man.

@animasta: That's not what I meant. Your argument was clean, valid and written well.

I meant the part where you told me to stop treating you like an 8 year old.

I don't think that it's the scale of exaggeration that is the whole point, it's more that western games have their distinct aesthetic preferences just as Japanese games do and that both sides are apt to complain about finding the other off-putting.

And I apologize for being sarcastic, I did not mean to offend.

You may be right but I don't think that it's fair to assume ill intent based on a couple of lines of poorly translated (and largely innocuous) text.

I give him respect for saying sorry and giving a more thoughtful argument but i don't agree with the "male power fantasy" argument. I hate how it completely writes off a male's point of view and generalize it by saying of course that what every male wants and wants to see. Somehow this argument does not go both ways even when the act of vain culture affects both men and women just the same.

Women being harassed is never good but is a different issue completely. I could understand if only the women characters were drawn like this or if it had the old armor problem of women wearing bikini armor while the men have full plated armor. But both men and women characters are hyper stylized to the point of being silly. So i simply don't get how the bottom line is male characters it does not matter what you do to them but women characters are off the table when being more stylized.

To close i just feel its more important to have a balance and not to just erase every hyper sexy stylized character. For every sexy character we need a smart one too. For every heroic character we need a every man or women.

I'm just glad to know I can finally sexually harass women and it's not my fault, it's Dragon Crown's.

Oh great, another one of these situations.

I have no problems with articles like this, It gets kind of annoying reading them sometimes when patrick writes them, but he is constant. When he says he thinks something is objectifying woman, I believe him, whether he is right or wrong is up for debate and a matter of opinion, and not the issue.

Within 6 hours, from 6:30 to 12pm, we have at least 3 sexualy charged stories, 2 with pictures that are contrary to the ideals talked about in the article they were chosen for.

I am just tired of men rushing to the defense of women because some video game character's tits were too big or someone found them just a liiiiittle too sexual and now they are just demeaning women and objectifying them and blah blah blah blah oh mY GOD WHO CARES

I realize I am not exactly the leading source on how a woman thinks because, heh, I am not a real one, but women don't need to be protected. We don't need the internet to come in and decide what is the proper representation of a female and what isn't. We don't get pissed off that male video game protagonists mostly have bald or shaved heads, we don't get pissed off that just about every male character is perfectly in shape with little to no body fat, we don't get pissed off that they are generally handsome or charming or capable because it's make believe, and when you play make believe, of course attractive traits are going to be emphasized. To a heterosexual female, maybe all of those things I just listed are attractive sexual traits. So why are you pissed off that we have breasts, why are you pissed off that we show a little skin from time to time? That's a harsh double standard, man.

Also, Dragon's Crown's art style is intentionally ridiculous and highly stylized. I feel that getting mad that the Sorceress has huge knockers or the Amazon has aircraft carriers for thighs because it is sexist is about as fair as getting on Mario's case for being a short, stubby hairy dude with a mustache that speaks with a ridiculous accent because it is racist.

I dunno, man. Those dwarves look like they're having a blast. The sorceress just sort of looks uncomfortable.

Christ, was that Kotaku article written just so that guy could make his bad 14 year old boy joke? It's only just over 300 words long. That is not an article.

Again, not familiar with them, that was a shot in the dark. However, it seems to me that the attacked are the young, attractive ones and the attackers are the old, deformed ones. The victims look innocent, the predators look corrupted. Maybe I'm completely wrong here though.

You seem to be completely ignoring what I have been saying time and time again about the woman being portrayed as a vulnerable sexual object, despite her witchcraft might. It makes no sense for this woman, a warrior who cooperates with other warriors to fight hordes of demons, to deliberately show her thigh every time she casts a spell. It is unnecessary, it is basic. Even as a fighter this person is being portrayed as a sexual object, with unrealistically large and wiggly breasts, which are each like four times the size of her face. It is a caricature that doesn't fit the game, and it awkwardly stands out as a sex-infused selling point that seems to be a requirement in Japanese games reliant on a national success with the otaku crowd.

I don't think the Sorceress thing is an issue. It's a design choice of exaggerated features on all characters, not just her. But his response to the Kotaku article was juvenile and kind of gross.

How should I know. It is more a social thing but you can not blame it on movies or video games. These people lack manners but not because they have played video games with sexy woman in it. Also these women should report them Many woman say they try so smile and forget it but that is wrong. Be loud and hold their hand up and call the police. Make a scene so people notice it. Done.

Fact is that you can not blame it on media just because idiots do that.

I agree with the kotaku dude on this one. That design is awful and the developers response seems no better than a school kid saying "lol if you don't that you must like big muscle men". He does not get to see the point brought up.

Kotaku dude started the fight by insulting the artist without thinking.

The developer could of been the bigger person and ignored it or maybe engaged the writer in a dialogue and try to explain the him why they went with their artistic choice if he does believe in it.

I'm not saying he's any better or worse. Only that this wouldn't have come up if Jason hadn't been a dick about it from the start.

Why? Why do you need now a reason to use such artstyle? This is just stupid.

@hailinel: so if he had posted a better written response about the same thing, in that he doesn't like the art style and considers it... terrible, you would be fine?

Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm saying that today's article wouldn't happened if Jason hadn't been a dick two weeks ago. That's all. Jesus.

For fuck's sake, why can't we all just fucking enjoy video games anymore? Why does everything have to be fucking sexist these days. Don't get me wrong. I know women in games don't always get the greatest treatment, but it's a fucking hyper-stylized game made my a studio famous for it's hyper-stylized art. It's like people complaining about women in fighting games. They're supposed to be ridiculous. That is the point. Subtle is not the name of the game. Dudes throwing giant fireballs is totally reasonable, but an attractive woman in a ridiculous outfit is not?

If women were presented like this in some "serious" game trying to convey a touching, heartfelt story then you could get fucking angry, but the point of the game is to be a fantasy. It's supposed to be unrealistic. It's supposed to be over the top. Jesus fucking christ.

I'm wondering this too. I agree that attacking the artists instead of just the art was not necessary and makes it seems more petty than it is. I too wish he explain himself more, he assumed that his stance was well shared and know I suppose considering the recent sexism stuff in the game industry. Turns out he was wrong.

@artemesia: I'm a tall, thin, Italian man who cannot grow a mustache. I can't speak for all Italians, of course--I don't even speak much Italian--but there's nothing harmful about Mario's design that I can see.

Anyway, on topic: I consider myself to be a feminist. It bothers me a lot when I hear that women face prejudice in the workplace in any industry. It makes me sad that when I was a game design student, out of my class of about 30, there were only three women. I'm not the kind of person to make claims that sexism is an illusion or any of that. I'm frequently disappointed by comics' and games' treatment of female characters.

What I've seen of this game doesn't bother me though. The characters cover a pretty wide gamut of designs for either sex, and they're all ludicrously exaggerated. I just can't see how they hurt anyone. People being sexy doesn't generally bother me either. And hey, what's wrong with burly dwarfs of ambiguous sexual leanings? Maybe they're just buds with their shirts off after spending time next to a hot forge. Nothin' wrong with that, either way.

My point was that there isn't anything wrong with it. Maybe I worded it poorly...

I wasn't though? I was just asking if you would have been fine had it been better written; it was a question, not a statement (though I probably should've phrased it better).

I'm just gonna add that some of Kamitani's art puts me off in precisely the manner the original Kotaku post is describing.

Now, I probably wouldn't have gone all ad hominem on the guy--I probably would've just not bought Dragon's Crown--but then, I don't write for Kotaku, so.

@artemesia: Oh I know. I was just confirming that there wasn't from the perspective of a person of Italian descent. I figured I could speak with more authority on that than on whether the art of Dragon's Crown was somehow sexist or misogynistic.

Ah, I can see this thread is going swimmingly.

Fuck Kotaku. Impossible navigation and a clown cast of writers have kept me away from that site for years. The community is full of asshats too.

I have no interest in this Dragon's Crown game but that response is beautiful.

Hard to say without reading this theoretical piece. Sure, it could have been better written, but would it have been less inflammatory?

If you guys listened to one of the previous 8-4 podcasts, then you already know Kamitani does in fact love drawing large breasted women. Forget "artistic style" or anything like that, he just likes it that way. His Christmas card one year were bare breasted women. So if we characterize immaturity with "male infatuation with large breasts", then sure, you can call him immature.

Now, from the sounds of it, this Kotaku article is apparently going beyond that and claim the games contributes to female sexual harassment in real life (haven't read the article, but that's what I'm getting from people summing it up here. Correct me if I'm wrong), and that's where shit falls apart.

As for his drawing, the idea that the western audience is attracted to muscular men isn't a comment on one's sexuality so much as it is a Japanese stereotype towards western aesthetic tastes. There's a reason Nier's main character was completely redesigned for the western release as the devs felt it'd appeal to western players more.

Yeah. It is like saying Rock Music back then was responsible for crime and murder....

Oh lord! Large breasts and nude skin? Run for the fucking trenches!

*sigh*

I'm not sure about the oily part, since that kind of indicates that they are bare chested, and the only other bare chested male protagonists - not in a fighting game - that I can think of right now are Kratos and Monkey from Enslaved. And I would agree that they are more realistically proportioned.

However, there are other burly male protagonists in armor that are also ridiculous. Either they have unrealistic physiques under that armor or the armor is very thick and weirdly fitted.

As a sexual object? Yeah I'll give you that, because once again, Kamitani really likes big tits on woman on principle. But as a vulnerable sexual object? You'll have to show me the part where she's somehow displayed as more fragile than all the other playable characters.

Yeah, I mean, given the fact that she's dishing out and taking punishment just as much as any other playable character in the game, Dragon Crown's sorceress is not a "vulnerable sex object." She's a sorceress fighting monsters right alongside a bunch of other stylized fantasy trope characters. She just happens to have an exaggerated figure.

It's the internet. Any real life action you take doesn't count for shit unless you stir up an online storm about it.

I've seen art styles and character designs that I don't like. Haven't written an article about it any of them though. I'm not a big fan of the character designs of Dragon's Crown (art style in both illustrations and game is fantastic though) but even if I hated them I don't see a point in making a big fuss about it.

All that aside, the original post was a complete joke and the article isn't any better. The article supposedly goes on to 'elaborate on his criticism' when there was literally nothing to elaborate on.

Looking through some of the stuff he's done previously it really doesn't seem like this is the case. Even if it was, liking the look of something whatever it is sounds like a decent reason to draw it. I haven't listened to the podcasts though.