People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
Stupid argument is stupid.
Yours was very fleshed out and well sourced, thanks for your input.
I wonder if this type of thing only exacerbates the issue.
We all hope (at least I hope all of us hope) to destroy the "game designer" versus"girl game designer" and "games journalist" versus "girl games journalist" divisions. But for tonight, we've ensured that the "girl game designers" and "girl games journalists" are seen in stark relief.
This stupidity of sexism must be eradicated, but look at how that happened / is happening with the film industry.
A great example of a strong female character in video games is Crysis 2's Tara Strickland. Why? Because she was realistic. She was perfectly feminine, utterly strong, and most of all, I didn't notice until my third playthrough that she was indeed a prime example of a strong female character. She simply fit. I shake my head when I see Marcus Fenix because that guy's character model and uniform are ridiculous; I do the same about most female fighting game characters--I actually can't think of ridiculous female characters in my game catalog.
People didn't demand Hitchcock. In fact, they called his films grotesque trash. No-one asked for Stanley Kubrick's spiders of cinema. But, unlike with Hitchcock, they knew it when they saw it. Will the gaming audience drag the industry out of infancy? Will developers embody the Hitchcocks and Kubricks? Or will it be the journalists who shame us to progress through their open derision and rebuke?
Judging purely on the trailers, I find Far Cry 3's sexuality to be disgusting and childish. The intimacy between the native girl and the player character is no intimacy at all, not while we, the player, are sitting beside them leering. On the other hand I think all gamers, developers, and journalists should be proud of the upcoming Tomb Raider. Again, this is all based off of a two-minute trailer, but to honestly show an attempted rape is a grave and horrifying thing. Should women be outraged that one of their sex is shown to be physically weaker than a man? No more than men should be that one of their sex is shown to be a disgusting monster. Perhaps the outrage is justified; that depends upon how maturely the matter is handled in the finished product. But at it appears now, they are attempting to portray a deathly serious matter with deathly seriousness. Yes, people may run from the theater(re) weeping, but this Psycho should and must be made. This Clockwork Orange is necessary.
Why can't we have reasoned discussion instead of this emotional babble?
There's no hope for sanity on the internet. All of the logic in the world won't be enough to shield you from being trampled by the massive herd of emotionally charged Twitter and Wordpress users.
It's like every time I see someone racist, "Oh, I forgot you guys still exist". It's pretty disheartening to see people blissfully unaware of their misogynistic ways, or worse, proud of them. All we can do is give these people a hard time any time they act out in this way.
@YOU_DIED said:
People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
I've never been a fan of these kinds of arguments. It sucks that those things are happening all around the world, but that doesn't disqualify these "smaller" things from being legitimate issues. There's no reason that we can't care about all the bad parts of society and the world at the same time, big or small.
It doesn't stop them from being legitimate issues, and you don't have to stop caring about them. It's analogous to having an ingrown toenail and lung cancer, and going to the foot doctor first.
It's like every time I see someone racist, "Oh, I forgot you guys still exist". It's pretty disheartening to see people blissfully unaware of their misogynistic ways, or worse, proud of them. All we can do is give these people a hard time any time they act out in this way.
@YOU_DIED said:
People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
I've never been a fan of these kinds of arguments. It sucks that those things are happening all around the world, but that doesn't disqualify these "smaller" things from being legitimate issues. There's no reason that we can't care about all the bad parts of society and the world at the same time, big or small.
It doesn't stop them from being legitimate issues, and you don't have to stop caring about them. It's analogous to having an ingrown toenail and lung cancer, and going to the foot doctor first.
How can you not think that portions of the video game industry is sexist? And how can you not think it's a problem?
You sound like one of those guys who lurks around such topics like this and mention something like, 'why don't all these women think of men's rights?'
Don't be that guy. They're doing this because they give a shit about women's representation in the video game industry. They're doing it because it's important to them, not because they don't think that there are other problems in the world. That's it.
How can you not think that portions of the video game industry is sexist? And how can you not think it's a problem?
Can you please point out where either of those things were said in my post?
@biggiedubs said:
Don't be that guy. They're doing this because they give a shit about women's representation in the video game industry. They're doing it because it's important to them, not because they don't think that there are other problems in the world. That's it.
That isn't an argument, and they're not doing it right in the first place, which I called out in my other post:
@YOU_DIED said:
@TruthTellah: If they feel women are underrepresented in the industry, they should start working to get more women interested in related subjects, like Engineering, Computers, PR, Business, etc. If they feel they are being sexually harassed by their co-workers (or anyone, for that matter), they should visit their HR department, local police, or perhaps a lawyer if all else fails. If they are catching a bunch of heat on some shitty social network then they should learn to use the tools that are in place to block or remove the offenders from their field of view (either that or just deal with it, behaving like a responsible adult is the price we pay for a free and open internet). Most importantly, they should learn to distinguish between the following things:
1. Anonymous, random internet hate - hate for the sake of hating, not because someone is out to get you (this is the bulk of what you see)
2. Hate or harassment directed towards someone because of their personality and behavior, NOT because of the fact that they are a woman (see Leigh Alexander)
3. Actual sexism, like being denied a job because you are a woman
THIS is how you start, not by becoming a fucking 'pop culture critic' on YouTube (that phrase makes me cringe).
It seems like every day now there is a new article or forum post somewhere about this where the same tired old arguments get recycled, 'check your straight white male privilege' ad infinitum. This is why you see people complaining about it, because they just want them to shut the fuck up and do something about it already so we can get on with playing and talking about video games.
People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
To me, that reads like you're saying you don't think that it's a problem with the whole bracket thing, and you then seem to imply that even if it does exist it's not worth bothering trying to solve anyway. Sure, you didn't specifically say those words, but it's not hard to see what you're snarkily implying.
Why should they have to distinguish between those kind of hate? There all kinds of hate, why should any of them exist? You can't throw your arms up and say, 'you've never going to stop it, it's pointless', because it doesn't make it okay for it to happen in the first place.
And it's a twitter hashtag, I think they know it's no substitute for boots-on-the-ground style work. If a couple of people who didn't know some of the fucked up things that women experience in the industry now do, then it did it's job. It's been going, like, 11 hours. Cut it some slack.
People really think "sexism" (and I use this term very loosely) in video games is a problemworthwastingtime on? Wow, and I thought I had my priorities fucked up. They were right, we are definitely living in the hyperreal.
To me, that reads like you're saying you don't think that it's a problem with the whole bracket thing, and you then seem to imply that even if it does exist it's not worth bothering trying to solve anyway. Sure, you didn't specifically say those words, but it's not hard to see what you're snarkily implying.
Why should they have to distinguish between those kind of hate? There all kinds of hate, why should any of them exist? You can't throw your arms up and say, 'you've never going to stop it, it's pointless', because it doesn't make it okay for it to happen in the first place.
And it's a twitter hashtag, I think they know it's no substitute for boots-on-the-ground style work. If a couple of people who didn't know some of the fucked up things that women experience in the industry now do, then it did it's job. It's been going, like, 11 hours. Cut it some slack.
I'm not implying anything, snarkily or otherwise. My point is, as stated, that it's an incredibly trivial problem compared to issues that are much more important, which get little to no discussion. If they don't learn to distinguish between random, senseless hate and targeted ideological hate there's a good chance they will end up fighting against an imaginary enemy, much like what has happened with Anita Sarkeesian. To your last point, the discussion about sexism in video games and the industry in general has been going on for years. I apologize if it's new or novel to you.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
This is what I hate (yes, hate!) about how some women behave about this issue. I have learned from personal experience that ugly people exist, but there aren't that many of them, honestly. I'm an openly gay man. I made it through high school and some community college and I'm joining the Marine Corps, and I've received my fair share of shit, but most people are totally supportive of it, and I don't blame Christianity on homophobes telling me they'll beat the gay out of me (Maybe not the best idea to go up against a guy going into the Marines, but hell, get some!). I feel like a lot of the discussion in the industry is being blown out in ways that obscures the women who are being reasonable about it, and the real issues. Instead of the fucking twats crying about rape culture and bullshit like that. They need to recognize the disconnect between 4chan and actual human beings. They need to stop playing the victim and just say "hey, you wanna fuck with me? Come on, come at me. I'll fight it, and I'll fuck your shit." Discrimination and abuse are illegal regardless of the reason. I wish women would just punch every guy that did something stupid, I wish they would report corrupt hiring or HR practices to the proper places. It's great that women come out on social media and blogs and all that, but ultimately it's actions that will speak for their plight, not twitter.
I shouldn't be treated like an asshole because some stupid feminist wants to make claims that rape is somehow something we see regularly in games, or that there is some sort of rape culture in the industry, and I call her out on her bullshit. Feminism has about as much place in the world as black power or gay pride. Don't wanna be defined by your gender? Don't be a feminist, just call out bullshit. It doesn't matter WHY a women is treated like shit, it shouldn't happen. So instead of focusing on the fact that women are treated poorly in some cases, just get shit done. Get employees to quit their jobs when they are treated like shit, report any abuse of any kind, regardless of reason or nature of the abuse. Punch the son of a bitch acting like a 9 year old with a newly found obsession for his dick.
It's tough for me sympathize in the way I feel some women expect me to because, hey, I've been called homophobic slurs, I've been told I'm "not allowed to use a rainbow because God made rainbows" and I'm "just not allowed." I've been threatened by internet toddlers from the 4chans of the internet. But I don't expect any sympathy. I defend myself, I kick ass, I get the job I go for, and soon I'll be serving the hell out of my country and generally being a bad ass. So it sort of pisses me off when a women whines about rape culture when she hasn't even been looked at the wrong way yet I've gone toe to toe with rapists, I've had incredibly close friends and even my girlfriend actually go through that, so you know what ladies? Stop bitching, and fuck the assholes up when they get in your way, but ignore the dumb asses that don'e actually matter. Some idiot on the internet will always hate you for some part of you. Be you a female, a homosexual, a male gamer, a war hero, or really, really into some lady blowing bubbles in skimpy outfits. They are just trolls, just freakin dumb asses on the internet. It doesn't mean everyone is a piece of shit, it doesn't mean it's proportional to actual real life humans that you interact with on a regular basis. I think that's the biggest issue the discussion has: too few people are bothering to make that distinction.
Women in the industry who have been treated like shit? Yeah, you can talk shit about asshole bosses or colleagues or whatever the fuck. But you have to take action to get anywhere. And you have to have perspective. Women aren't the only ones not represented well in the industry. And again, the internet is not real life, and treating it like it is is fucking stupid.
At least the derogatory term for you hasn't just become the derogatory term thrown around at everyone and in any situation, especially in this industry.
EDIT: I know, I'm a callous asshole. How dare I expect women to be tough enough to get through bullshit like I did. It's not fair to compare women to a man. Who works out! And wants to kill people! Also I'm a monster who wants to kill people, did I mention that?
@Sgtpierceface: Hell, she blows like 30 guys away in one of those E3 bits, so I'm guessing she can handle her shit. lol.
"Do something about it!"
Get employees to quit when they're treated like shit, reporting abuse, punch a son of a bitch, all your answers and solutions scream of privilege that you have.
Quit? Some people live paycheck to paycheck, or they need the insurance or have a family to support. Fighting up for what you believe in is important, but so is surviving.
Report abuse? To who? What if it's your boss? What then? You think a woman is protected from harassment in these situations? Rarely. And what if it has nothing to do with your employer, many of these instances involve random assholes, people in other companies or freelancing associates who have no bosses or supervisors to report to.
Punch a son of a bitch? Yeah, easy for the marine to say. And even if the woman in the situation can win the fight, that doesn't mean it will solve anything She'll go from being the "woman who whines about sexism" to the "woman who punched a guy for no reason" if she doesn't have any proof.
Finally, feminism is the notion that women are people, so if a woman doesn't want to be defined by her gender then the best way to do that is to be a feminist.
And OF COURSE the response most critical and demeaning to the actual problem is the one that is getting "salute."
Isn't this a problem in general? I mean why is this related to video games? The guy groped her because of video games?
How often do you hear about women being groped at, say an industrial engineers convention or a meeting of sales reps? I've heard at least three stories of women being abused, harassed or assaulted at video game events THIS YEAR. And those are just the people who come forward, the actual numbers have to be much higher.
I remember listening to a podcast where they talked to a woman who'd done some presenting for videogame TV shows. She'd been told straight up to her face by one of the producers that when casting for a female host, they didn't care whether or not she knew anything about games - all that mattered was that she was "fuckable". So, uh, yeah, industry wants to improve, that's one place to start.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
This is what I hate (yes, hate!) about how some women behave about this issue. I have learned from personal experience that ugly people exist, but there aren't that many of them, honestly. I'm an openly gay man. I made it through high school and some community college and I'm joining the Marine Corps, and I've received my fair share of shit, but most people are totally supportive of it, and I don't blame Christianity on homophobes telling me they'll beat the gay out of me (Maybe not the best idea to go up against a guy going into the Marines, but hell, get some!). I feel like a lot of the discussion in the industry is being blown out in ways that obscures the women who are being reasonable about it, and the real issues. Instead of the fucking twats crying about rape culture and bullshit like that. They need to recognize the disconnect between 4chan and actual human beings. They need to stop playing the victim and just say "hey, you wanna fuck with me? Come on, come at me. I'll fight it, and I'll fuck your shit." Discrimination and abuse are illegal regardless of the reason. I wish women would just punch every guy that did something stupid, I wish they would report corrupt hiring or HR practices to the proper places. It's great that women come out on social media and blogs and all that, but ultimately it's actions that will speak for their plight, not twitter.
I shouldn't be treated like an asshole because some stupid feminist wants to make claims that rape is somehow something we see regularly in games, or that there is some sort of rape culture in the industry, and I call her out on her bullshit. Feminism has about as much place in the world as black power or gay pride. Don't wanna be defined by your gender? Don't be a feminist, just call out bullshit. It doesn't matter WHY a women is treated like shit, it shouldn't happen. So instead of focusing on the fact that women are treated poorly in some cases, just get shit done. Get employees to quit their jobs when they are treated like shit, report any abuse of any kind, regardless of reason or nature of the abuse. Punch the son of a bitch acting like a 9 year old with a newly found obsession for his dick.
It's tough for me sympathize in the way I feel some women expect me to because, hey, I've been called homophobic slurs, I've been told I'm "not allowed to use a rainbow because God made rainbows" and I'm "just not allowed." I've been threatened by internet toddlers from the 4chans of the internet. But I don't expect any sympathy. I defend myself, I kick ass, I get the job I go for, and soon I'll be serving the hell out of my country and generally being a bad ass. So it sort of pisses me off when a women whines about rape culture when she hasn't even been looked at the wrong way yet I've gone toe to toe with rapists, I've had incredibly close friends and even my girlfriend actually go through that, so you know what ladies? Stop bitching, and fuck the assholes up when they get in your way, but ignore the dumb asses that don'e actually matter. Some idiot on the internet will always hate you for some part of you. Be you a female, a homosexual, a male gamer, a war hero, or really, really into some lady blowing bubbles in skimpy outfits. They are just trolls, just freakin dumb asses on the internet. It doesn't mean everyone is a piece of shit, it doesn't mean it's proportional to actual real life humans that you interact with on a regular basis. I think that's the biggest issue the discussion has: too few people are bothering to make that distinction.
Women in the industry who have been treated like shit? Yeah, you can talk shit about asshole bosses or colleagues or whatever the fuck. But you have to take action to get anywhere. And you have to have perspective. Women aren't the only ones not represented well in the industry. And again, the internet is not real life, and treating it like it is is fucking stupid.
At least the derogatory term for you hasn't just become the derogatory term thrown around at everyone and in any situation, especially in this industry.
EDIT: I know, I'm a callous asshole. How dare I expect women to be tough enough to get through bullshit like I did. It's not fair to compare women to a man. Who works out! And wants to kill people! Also I'm a monster who wants to kill people, did I mention that?
@Sgtpierceface: Hell, she blows like 30 guys away in one of those E3 bits, so I'm guessing she can handle her shit. lol.
Simple question: You say you're a gay man but have a girlfriend?
Isn't this a problem in general? I mean why is this related to video games? The guy groped her because of video games?
How often do you hear about women being groped at, say an industrial engineers convention or a meeting of sales reps? I've heard at least three stories of women being abused, harassed or assaulted at video game events THIS YEAR. And those are just the people who come forward, the actual numbers have to be much higher.
Even if I didn't heard as much stories from other industries, it doesn't mean that it isn't a problem on a much bigger scale. You said that the actual numbers have to be much higher. Couldn't this be true to places other than the video game industry?
Heh. To be fair, Leigh is the only obnoxious, silly, immature, annoying drunk game person I've heard (on the Bombcast at least)
I remember before the forum backlash she apologized for being so disruptive on her blog. Now she says its our fault. >.>
I don't see those two things being mutually exclusive. She was sorry for being disruptive but the backlash was our fault.
I'm not saying she wasn't annoying at the time, but the amount of shit she got was far from justified by her actions. It's a prime example of people giving too much of a fuck on the internet.
Finally, feminism is the notion that women are people, so if a woman doesn't want to be defined by her gender then the best way to do that is to be a feminist.
I would like to talk about this for a second if I may as I think it represents just how muddied any line of thought can be when trying to deal with large movements such as feminism.
If the feminist movement wishes to improve equality for women and wishes to eradicate gender bias thought, why is it called ‘feminism’, an incredibly gender-biased phrase? When something becomes as multi-faceted and complex as feminism has, with so many different beliefs and opinions coming even from the staunchest of its advocates, it’s hard to promote reasonable discussion because it’s hard to identify one form from another. How do we address this form of feminism when it runs counter to that form?
What we have are a bunch or separate factions tackling the issue in sweeping generalities that often run counter to each other and themselves. On one side are the feminists insisting on equality and pointing the finger at large groups of people they feel need to change. On the other are the people being blamed and fighting back at every feminist. While it happens, not enough of the conversation is talking about individuals.
You can’t abolish generality without accepting individuality.
We are all different people. We have different backgrounds, support different ideas and must be responsible for our own behaviors. There are women who love sports and men who love cooking. I know women who charge through walls and men that are too anxious to leave their houses.
Unfortunately, there are bad people in the world- people who lie, who cheat, who kill, who rape. Those people need to be punished and dealt with accordingly. But they are individuals too and must be recognized as such. Just because they congregate in, and identify with, a group of individuals does not mean that every individual within that group should be held accountable for a set of beliefs or actions.
You can’t accept individuality without acknowledging individual accountability.
There are also people that justify their actions with excuses, try to avoid potentially valid personal criticism through deflection. It’s an irrational, dishonest practice that does more to perpetuate generalities than solves actual problems.
Let’s look at Leigh Alexander’s tweet for a moment:@Apathylad said:
Isn’t it possible that people have problems with her being ‘obnoxious, silly, immature, annoying’ when she’s drunk, not because she’s a woman, but because when she drinks she is overly obnoxious, immature and annoying? Can’t we say that about her as a person without it having anything to do with her being a woman? Maybe the truth is something more: maybe she’s saying that people should accept her no matter what she does as a person because she’s a woman? We have to judge people on their individual merits and faults if we want to promote equality. Equality doesn’t come from special treatment one way or another.
I am a straight, white male and want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to have food on their table and the right to pursue their own dreams. I don’t lie, don’t cheat- have never killed or raped. I don’t know anyone who has done those last two. I am not the cause of people’s grief and reject any assertion that I am.
Even if all my conclusions here are absolutely wrong, that is on me- not my gender, my ethnicity or my social status.
@Laurentech: @StarvingGamer: It was a twitter hashtag for Susan Boyle' new album. It was meant to read Susan Album Party but everyone else read it as Sus Anal Bum Party and it started to trend. Some intern out there is probably still laughing themselves to sleep.
I know, right? I don't mean to trivialize the other people who have contributed to this or the problems they've faced, but it's really hard to take it seriously when Leigh decides to jump on the bandwagon and continue to play the victim for being a disruptive, confrontational drunk that made everything about her and act like it's all because of sexism.
I've never seen any sexism in my entire life. If anything, I've seen women unfairly getting ahead of men simply for being women. I really don't get some of you people.
Finally, feminism is the notion that women are people, so if a woman doesn't want to be defined by her gender then the best way to do that is to be a feminist.
I would like to talk about this for a second if I may as I think it represents just how muddied any line of thought can be when trying to deal with large movements such as feminism.
If the feminist movement wishes to improve equality for women and wishes to eradicate gender bias thought, why is it called ‘feminism’, an incredibly gender-biased phrase? When something becomes as multi-faceted and complex as feminism has, with so many different beliefs and opinions coming even from the staunchest of its advocates, it’s hard to promote reasonable discussion because it’s hard to identify one form from another. How do we address this form of feminism when it runs counter to that form?
What we have are a bunch or separate factions tackling the issue in sweeping generalities that often run counter to each other and themselves. On one side are the feminists insisting on equality and pointing the finger at large groups of people they feel need to change. On the other are the people being blamed and fighting back at every feminist. While it happens, not enough of the conversation is talking about individuals.
You can’t abolish generality without accepting individuality.
We are all different people. We have different backgrounds, support different ideas and must be responsible for our own behaviors. There are women who love sports and men who love cooking. I know women who charge through walls and men that are too anxious to leave their houses.
Unfortunately, there are bad people in the world- people who lie, who cheat, who kill, who rape. Those people need to be punished and dealt with accordingly. But they are individuals too and must be recognized as such. Just because they congregate in, and identify with, a group of individuals does not mean that every individual within that group should be held accountable for a set of beliefs or actions.
You can’t accept individuality without acknowledging individual accountability.
There are also people that justify their actions with excuses, try to avoid potentially valid personal criticism through deflection. It’s an irrational, dishonest practice that does more to perpetuate generalities than solves actual problems.
Let’s look at Leigh Alexander’s tweet for a moment:@Apathylad said:
Isn’t it possible that people have problems with her being ‘obnoxious, silly, immature, annoying’ when she’s drunk, not because she’s a woman, but because when she drinks she is overly obnoxious, immature and annoying? Can’t we say that about her as a person without it having anything to do with her being a woman? Maybe the truth is something more: maybe she’s saying that people should accept her no matter what she does as a person because she’s a woman? We have to judge people on their individual merits and faults if we want to promote equality. Equality doesn’t come from special treatment one way or another.
I am a straight, white male and want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to have food on their table and the right to pursue their own dreams. I don’t lie, don’t cheat- have never killed or raped. I don’t know anyone who has done those last two. I am not the cause of people’s grief and reject any assertion that I am.
Even if all my conclusions here are absolutely wrong, that is on me- not my gender, my ethnicity or my social status.
You claim to be for equality yet you come here and write an essay on why feminism is a "gender-biased" phrase and then go on and on about individuality and personal responsibility, all while picking out one tweet that kind of supports your view, while ignoring the hundreds upon hundreds of stories of sexual assault, discrimination, bullying, male privilege and so on.
Whatever man, you can sit here and pick apart feminism all day while still being for "everyone to have food on their table and the right to pursue their own dreams" or you can admit this is a series problem, especially in the games industry, and maybe listen to some women talk about it for once, instead of nitpicking their arguments to infinite and beyond.
I'm quitting this thread before I lose it again. I knew it was a mistake to try and bring this up here. I never learn.
I really hope a lot of these women claiming they were denied work or opportunities on the grounds of sexism had the credentials to perform.
In Afghanistan, we had a female soldier that wanted to go out on patrol with us when we were incredibly under-manned. We needed one more .50 cal gunner on a truck. We had to end up throwing our Platoon Leader (which is unheard of giving an officer a gunner position) because the female wasn't competent with the weapon's systems. We were expecting a lot of contact, and everyone needs experience. But we were expecting to get hit hard by the enemy. She ended up making a formal complaint for sexual discrimination. It never went anywhere, but caused a lot of problems. She did end up being a gunner, but on a less complicated patrol so she could get some basic experience before being thrown into battle. This same course of action with denying her wishes to go on her first patrol as a gunner in a hot zone would've also been denied to a male of equal experience.
Moral of the story is, it's easy to throw around discrimination. But playing devil's advocate is equally as healthy.
I've known there has been harassment on Xbox Live and such, but I guess I didn't realize overt sexism was happening on the creative end of the industry as well.
Sexism isn't a problem in the industry. I promise the people who make games for the most part are not sexist, have no problems treating women with respect, or being respectful of their female employees. The old adage "Sex Sells" is what drives this. In other words, the problem is with the consumer. Because that old adage also happens to have been proven true time and time again.
@Karkarov: If the old adage 'Sex Sells' is accurate, and women make up a significant number of gamers, why are there not disgusting ads geared towards female sex fantasies? Every time people say 'Sex Sells' I wonder how they can believe that since it's not really true, and if it were it's excluding a half (or more) the people on the planet, by limiting ads to strait males.
I've never seen any sexism in my entire life. If anything, I've seen women unfairly getting ahead of men simply for being women. I really don't get some of you people.
Stop the presses, people. CaLe, the great arbiter of truth and expert on all things gender politics, has weighed in that sexism is dead. He's never seen it so clearly it's not there. This thread is solved; we can all go home now.
Finally, feminism is the notion that women are people, so if a woman doesn't want to be defined by her gender then the best way to do that is to be a feminist.
I would like to talk about this for a second if I may as I think it represents just how muddied any line of thought can be when trying to deal with large movements such as feminism.
If the feminist movement wishes to improve equality for women and wishes to eradicate gender bias thought, why is it called ‘feminism’, an incredibly gender-biased phrase? When something becomes as multi-faceted and complex as feminism has, with so many different beliefs and opinions coming even from the staunchest of its advocates, it’s hard to promote reasonable discussion because it’s hard to identify one form from another. How do we address this form of feminism when it runs counter to that form?
What we have are a bunch or separate factions tackling the issue in sweeping generalities that often run counter to each other and themselves. On one side are the feminists insisting on equality and pointing the finger at large groups of people they feel need to change. On the other are the people being blamed and fighting back at every feminist. While it happens, not enough of the conversation is talking about individuals.
You can’t abolish generality without accepting individuality.
We are all different people. We have different backgrounds, support different ideas and must be responsible for our own behaviors. There are women who love sports and men who love cooking. I know women who charge through walls and men that are too anxious to leave their houses.
Unfortunately, there are bad people in the world- people who lie, who cheat, who kill, who rape. Those people need to be punished and dealt with accordingly. But they are individuals too and must be recognized as such. Just because they congregate in, and identify with, a group of individuals does not mean that every individual within that group should be held accountable for a set of beliefs or actions.
You can’t accept individuality without acknowledging individual accountability.
There are also people that justify their actions with excuses, try to avoid potentially valid personal criticism through deflection. It’s an irrational, dishonest practice that does more to perpetuate generalities than solves actual problems.
Let’s look at Leigh Alexander’s tweet for a moment:@Apathylad said:
Isn’t it possible that people have problems with her being ‘obnoxious, silly, immature, annoying’ when she’s drunk, not because she’s a woman, but because when she drinks she is overly obnoxious, immature and annoying? Can’t we say that about her as a person without it having anything to do with her being a woman? Maybe the truth is something more: maybe she’s saying that people should accept her no matter what she does as a person because she’s a woman? We have to judge people on their individual merits and faults if we want to promote equality. Equality doesn’t come from special treatment one way or another.
I am a straight, white male and want everyone to be happy. I want everyone to have food on their table and the right to pursue their own dreams. I don’t lie, don’t cheat- have never killed or raped. I don’t know anyone who has done those last two. I am not the cause of people’s grief and reject any assertion that I am.
Even if all my conclusions here are absolutely wrong, that is on me- not my gender, my ethnicity or my social status.
Yes, she was really fucking annoying and really fucking obnoxious. I can't stand her. It also got way more attention than other really annoying, really obnoxious, really stupid, really drunk people on podcasts that shout over each other, and there are plenty in this industry. She is admitting fault, but also saying that her male peers aren't held to the same standards.
Garnett Lee was the host of one of the most respected gaming podcasts ever, and he was also one of the least informed, least insightful, loudest, drunkest, most obnoxious, with a big ego that constantly played "devil's advocate" with ridiculous statements. I've never seen a bitchfest for him doing that consistently for years, but Leigh did it once or twice and that's all anyone ever mentions.
I'm not saying it's not deserved, I'm just saying that it's inequal, and I believe her sex is one (but not the only) reason why.
Also most, if not all, IGN podcast hosts (at least as of 2008, the last time I tried to even give them a chance).
If I talk on Voice Chat and win in a game, I might on the rare occasion get a message about cheating or being a fag or something. If I lose, I might, even less rarely, hear about how I just got stomped and that I'm my opponent's little bitch. Ignoring voice chat, I get those messages pretty rarely, but enough to notice. Voice chat is usually just dude's being obnoxious and immature, not focusing their attention on me. If a girl uses voice chat, the entire conversation, all of the insults, all of the attacks, immediately swing to her, and immediately focus on her sex. They will more often than not receive random friend requests, messages offering them achievements, or swag or whatever, messages calling them fat ugly sluts who belong in the kitchen every time they win, or dirty skanky sluts that deserve a fat cock if they lose. Almost every time. You can't claim that that's equal despite the insults and the amount of attention and the specificity of the comments and the likelihood of it happening are heavily skewed. That's delusional.
Truly awful to read that a lot of these incidents are occurring in workplaces that should be above this kind of nonsense. Can't imagine how difficult it is to handle these kinds of situations without outright quitting.
It sucks that this needs to be done in the first place. However, this does appear to be preaching to the choir. So what are we reasonable people supposed to do? Especially those of us not in the game industry (the majority of us here). We can talk about it (and we have, at length, multiple times) but ultimately it's on the game companies to change the way they think/operate. How the fuck am I supposed to make that happen? Not buy their games? As if that makes a blind bit of difference. People are going on about silence being the enemy of equality etc. but here we are, not being silent every time an over-sexualised female character comes along or every time a shocking story hits and it's still the same. So now what? I'm not saying at all that we should leave the issue be simply because we can't make a difference right now or but there's got to be a better, more productive way than taking to Twitter and 'talking about it' or 'having a dialogue', which is easily ignored. I hasten to add that I'm not suggesting we stop 'having a dialogue' and also that I have no idea what the more pro-active solution might be since I'm just a dude on the internet who, obviously, knows very little about the inner workings of the game industry.
That article provided somewhere in the Twitter debate that suggested that games with only a female protagonist sell much less and are marketed much less than games with male protagonists was very depressing and made me lament the fact that I could only think of two games that only have a female protagonist and they are old games. I would happily play games that solely feature a female protagonist and in games where there is a choice I have no issues with choosing the female (in fact, I pretty regularly do). But again this is an industry/marketing thing which I, and many of you, don't know nearly enough about to go about fixing.
I stress that that is just my view on the stuff about the games industry. The repugnant attitude toward women (producer or consumer) in gaming communities on the internet and conventions and such is easy to counter-act. Kick these assholes out of the community, exclude them, let them know this behaviour is not tolerable.
Garnett Lee was the host of one of the most respected gaming podcasts ever, and he was also one of the least informed, least insightful, loudest, drunkest, most obnoxious, with a big ego that constantly played "devil's advocate" with ridiculous statements. I've never seen a bitchfest for him doing that consistently for years, but Leigh did it once or twice and that's all anyone ever mentions.
I'm not trying to defend the (somewhat deserved, but as is the internet's way, completely) overblown reaction to Leigh, but this is patently untrue. Plenty of people have taken Garnett to task for his drunken insanities; there are essentially entire 1UP Yours threads on NeoGAF about just that.
Garnett Lee was the host of one of the most respected gaming podcasts ever, and he was also one of the least informed, least insightful, loudest, drunkest, most obnoxious, with a big ego that constantly played "devil's advocate" with ridiculous statements. I've never seen a bitchfest for him doing that consistently for years, but Leigh did it once or twice and that's all anyone ever mentions.
I'm not trying to defend the (somewhat deserved, but as is the internet's way, completely) overblown reaction to Leigh, but this is patently untrue. Plenty of people have taken Garnett to task for his drunken insanities; there are essentially entire 1UP Yours threads on NeoGAF about just that.
Ah, I guess I just never saw them. Thank God... I cringed whenever he'd open his mouth.
Garnett Lee was the host of one of the most respected gaming podcasts ever, and he was also one of the least informed, least insightful, loudest, drunkest, most obnoxious, with a big ego that constantly played "devil's advocate" with ridiculous statements. I've never seen a bitchfest for him doing that consistently for years, but Leigh did it once or twice and that's all anyone ever mentions.
I'm not trying to defend the (somewhat deserved, but as is the internet's way, completely) overblown reaction to Leigh, but this is patently untrue. Plenty of people have taken Garnett to task for his drunken insanities; there are essentially entire 1UP Yours threads on NeoGAF about just that.
Ah, I guess I just never saw them. Thank God... I cringed whenever he'd open his mouth.
I've been listening to Weekend Confirmed lately because I used to frequent 1up a lot back when everyone was still there, and I hadn't heard a Garnett Lee-helmed podcast in a while. Yeah, dude has not changed AT ALL. The only difference is he has a girlfriend now and mentions her constantly. I was always under the impression he was well liked because people were sympathetic towards him. It's kind of hard disliking someone who wants to be everyone's buddy, despite his lack of knowledge; I have a hard time disliking him. He has an ego, but I don't think he's arrogant.
I probably won't be continuing with it soon. He clearly misses the 1up days when he was the center of attention because he always reflects back on his time there in every Weekend Confirmed podcast, even though 4-5 years have passed. It's kind of sad.
On-topic, I think some of the criticism Leigh received had to do with her gender, I don't doubt that, but the Internet is usually pretty good at voicing their displeasure about anyone and anything in some forum. I think she's right, to an extent, though.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
This is such an absurd position to take. Criticism like this is against people who are sexist, racist, whatever the point of discussion is. If you are not, you have no reason to feel this way. The reason it is generalized is because it is simply a fact that a majority of white males are commonly seen to be sexist or racist and to treat such behaviour as acceptable. If you do not, then you are excluded from this group and have no reason to worry about it.
You also say "from feminists" implying that you are not one yourself. I'm not sure if you know what feminist means - but it is simply a term for someone who believes women deserve equal treatment to men. If you do not believe that, then please, ignore me as I am unlikely to sway your opinion in any way.
@CaLe said:
I've never seen any sexism in my entire life. If anything, I've seen women unfairly getting ahead of men simply for being women. I really don't get some of you people.
Unfortunately you are either blind to it or not very experienced in a modern society. I would be happy to take you to my girlfriends workplace where you could watch sexism happen literally minute to minute against both her and any other woman in the area. (For the record, she works in a mall, so it's a pretty good look at a group of people).
I am really glad to see more shit being raised about this and other issues. As threads like the discussion about differing sexuality display, even among this community there is a still a huge issue of people thinking this is acceptable, or being ignorant to it's existence somehow. It should be made clear how much this is still an issue and I think deserves even more attention than this (as well as other issues like racism, homophobia and transphobia which permeate society and this industry just as heavily).
You also say "from feminists" implying that you are not one yourself. I'm not sure if you know what feminist means - but it is simply a term for someone who believes women deserve equal treatment to men. If you do not believe that, then please, ignore me as I am unlikely to sway your opinion in any way.
Which is weird, don't you think? That a term with "feminine" as the root word means "someone who believes in equality?"
I do believe in equal treatment, but I'm not a feminist, because I'm not concerned with just women's rights, I'm also concerned with men's rights and problems, which, as I'm sure you've seen, are drastically underplayed and underrepresented in comparison.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
If you feel guilty for being a man, that's your own problem that you have to work out. I don't feel guilty for having a penis. I just feel ashamed at what some idiots who also have a penis do to people.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
If you feel guilty for being a man, that's your own problem that you have to work out. I don't feel guilty for having a penis. I just feel ashamed at what some idiots who also have a penis do to people.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
If you feel guilty for being a man, that's your own problem that you have to work out. I don't feel guilty for having a penis. I just feel ashamed at what some idiots who also have a penis do to people.
I'm fucking thrilled I have a penis.
Cool, me too. We can get to stick it in things. Touch it a bunch. It's great.
But some people don't have one and it's important to remember that. That's all this "movement" or whatever you want to call it is saying.
You also say "from feminists" implying that you are not one yourself. I'm not sure if you know what feminist means - but it is simply a term for someone who believes women deserve equal treatment to men. If you do not believe that, then please, ignore me as I am unlikely to sway your opinion in any way.
Which is weird, don't you think? That a term with "feminine" as the root word means "someone who believes in equality?"
I do believe in equal treatment, but I'm not a feminist, because I'm not concerned with just women's rights, I'm also concerned with men's rights and problems, which, as I'm sure you've seen, are drastically underplayed and underrepresented in comparison.
Isn't it sad that it has to have that as a root? There's a reason it does, and it's primarily because throughout all of modern history, white men have been the dominant force on this planet. Sadly the term has been spun into something negative and radical by this dominant white male group who portrays being "feminist" with being someone who wants to kill all men.
It's not as if I am concerned with only women's rights - I spend most of my time studying and working with people trying to alleviate sexism, racism, classism, ablism, homophobia, transphobia, and any other sort of discrimination you can imagine.
I would be interested to hear some of these "men's rights" issues you are referring to - as someone with several years of experience in the field of sociology and human rights, I have yet to see a valid complaint regarding discrimination toward men. The one example I can think of is rape counselling, where most of the time they will not accept men into the service (for understandable reasons), though I personally think they should consider the type of person and the patient more than the sex of the counsellor in specific cases.
How this makes me feel -> Men did this. I am a man. I did this. It is my fault. I am a bad person. All men are bad.
Pretty much the same thing I've been hearing all my life. I envy women, it must be nice to be able to feel proud of your gender.
Yep, this hits the nail on the head. Even the best intentions from feminists make me feel like I'm complete and utter garbage just because of my Y chromosome, and I owe it to the world to not be a male.
If you feel guilty for being a man, that's your own problem that you have to work out. I don't feel guilty for having a penis. I just feel ashamed at what some idiots who also have a penis do to people.
I'm fucking thrilled I have a penis.
Cool, me too. We can get to stick it in things. Touch it a bunch. It's great.
But some people don't have one and it's important to remember that. That's all this "movement" or whatever you want to call it is saying.
You also say "from feminists" implying that you are not one yourself. I'm not sure if you know what feminist means - but it is simply a term for someone who believes women deserve equal treatment to men. If you do not believe that, then please, ignore me as I am unlikely to sway your opinion in any way.
Which is weird, don't you think? That a term with "feminine" as the root word means "someone who believes in equality?"
I do believe in equal treatment, but I'm not a feminist, because I'm not concerned with just women's rights, I'm also concerned with men's rights and problems, which, as I'm sure you've seen, are drastically underplayed and underrepresented in comparison.
@Karkarov: If the old adage 'Sex Sells' is accurate, and women make up a significant number of gamers, why are there not disgusting ads geared towards female sex fantasies? Every time people say 'Sex Sells' I wonder how they can believe that since it's not really true, and if it were it's excluding a half (or more) the people on the planet, by limiting ads to strait males.
Half the worlds population may be female but you are kidding your self if you think half of the gamers in the world are female. I would be surprised if it is even 10-20%. Heck I can count the number of female coworkers I have had who played video games on one hand, and I have historically always worked jobs with more female than male employees and have been a full time employed dude for like 14 years now. At least 75% of gamers are male, probably more. Also it is really true, if it weren't there would not be a version of playboy for almost every known written language.
Meanwhile where are these adds with "disgusting male sex fantasies" exactly? I haven't seen them on tv, in a games informer, on this website, or anywhere else to my knowledge. If you are the type of person who goes to places with these types of advertisements odds are you are more than happy to look at them.
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