Does everything count?

So in the latest UPF of 01/16/15 at 41:10 as everyone was playing the final mode of Puyo Puyo Tetris Dan mentions that the mode wouldn't count if he lost and Brad said that everything counts or nothing does. Now I've had my wins and losses during friendly and competitive multiplayer games just like everyone else. There have been times where the wins and losses were legit, and other times where certain circumstances messed up the game in a way that would make the match difficult or impossible to call.

In both local and online multiplayer have you ever been in a situation where you would call BS in a match? If so, what happened and what would you count as BS in those matches?

For the sake of this conversation, please exclude cheats, hacks etc. even if developers put them in their games. All this is under the assumption that all is equal and fair.

Jokingly I've said "That doesn't count" before but I've never cared enough about my Win Loss ratio to say so sincerely.

I never take any match of any kind very seriously. I've never really been able to. My goal is to have fun, and when people get as competitive as either Dan or Brad, I immediately tune out.

But my gamer cred!

In large amounts, yes.

Best example that comes to mind was using the zoom out and view the offense button in Madden to make the guy playing defense jump offside (because the sudden screen movement would fake him out that the ball had been snapped). This was universally agreed upon as a bull move and when used on a crucial play, more or less negated the win. Granted, I am talking about playing local coop Madden over 15 years ago.

I'm not competitive so I don't really care who wins or who loses. But I don't think wins count when there are outside shenanigans or technical difficulties.

On a sidenote, I've never understood people that disconnect when they're losing. It still goes down a loss on your end so it counts regardless. Take the hit and don't look like a jerk.

They can be really tough to call, but I think there are all sorts of situations where you can say a win or loss doesn't count or at least doesn't count as much (it might be a mistake to make it a binary thing). A common one that comes to mind is being stuck on a team in a game where most of your side has dropped out but the other side still has all their original players.

In your defense, sometime in the last generation this was given a button and made a go-to strategy, particularly for online. And it only became more emphasized in the past two or so years with the jump the snap mechanic (where a defensive player could hit the turbo button at the right time to anticipate the snap and get a head start).

It just seems that unless you know who you're playing against or have a common understanding, then things shouldn't get out of control.

Everything counts. No human action can be undone.

Only if bets are on the line. And really, the only time something doesn't "count" is if there's some form of interference (shenanigans from onlookers or a controller dying or something).

When we played goldeneye, we had a rule that you could not pick oddjob because when you crouched as oddjob you were really hard to hit. It was kind of an unfair advantage.

I remember I played a game of Search and Destroy in Call of Duty 4 where the game ended as a win for both sides, 4-4. I can't remember which side I was on, but a guy managed to diffuse the bomb as the timer expired in the final, tie-breaker round and it counted as a victory for both teams.

But life is meaningless.

well it always counts a win is still a win and a loss is still a loss. the question is does it matter. and do you care about it.

Are you saying i have a do over on the last ten or so years of my life?

@zleunamme: Brad and Dan should always shake hands when making pseudo video game related contracts, because from the contract there's no turning back.

Not a chance :D

If I'm losing it doesn't count.

At an amateur level, any form of credit is only in the eyes of your audience. If you have a win that you think 'counts' but everyone you're with doesn't then it effectively doesn't as your reputation in their opinion hasn't increased. My favorite example of this is ScoreHero's (a Guitar Hero/Rock Band score-tracking website) policy on people who put fake scores in was 'So what, they're only fooling themselves that they've achieved something.' (I'm paraphrasing).

This shouldn't stop you from arguing your case though. If a game says someone else won but you really feel it should have been a tie then if you can persuade the people your with (or at least the majority of them) will make it 'count'.

So you're saying that it doesn't matter who actually wins or loses and unless you can prove your case, the majority gets to decide the outcome due to popular opinion. That is if your reputation matters to you.

Yes. Though who 'actually' (I.e. the game says) wins or loses will certainly be strong evidence in/not in your favour.

When I saw the thread title, I was hoping to find this here.

Some things count, some things don't. It depends on who you ask and when you ask them. So, no, not everything counts to everybody. It's about as subjective as it gets. Which is why I can get away with being this vague.

But even if it doesn't "count" according to you, that's not something you ought to say to someone's face. Bear it with stoicism and some grace, and come back and kick their ass in the next round.

Except if they're maining Ermac in MK 9, fuck those people. What is wrong with you? Like, seriously? Over-the-screen grapple-moves without any animation, delay or projectiles? Go learn how to play. I'll wait over here, with my 7 fucking trappers / rushdown / mixup characters and my dignity. I said I'll wait!

Raw stats are meaningful but on a game to game basis it's easy to point out when someone gets lucky/some bullshit happens.

With FIFA 15 my friend and me don't count games we play on the same console versus each other as there is no form of tracking (stupidly) but in our Ultimate Team friendly seasons we are super competitive and that's where it's at! He is currently leading 5-2 on seasons and I couldn't be more pissed!!!! Especially because it doesn't count goal difference so we've tied two seasons where I've had a superior goal difference only to find it count the season as a tie. One season I won with a last minute winner to make it 2-1 but over all my goal difference was +5 over him and it all counted for nothing...

It only counts if everyone's on equal footing. That means no cheap characters, no glitching (unless it's part of the meta game) or otherwise unsportsmanlike conduct. Otherwise it's a farce. For a "win" to mean something it has to be earned.

Of course its all bullshit; we're talking about video games here. But in the heat of the moment, when that competitiveness boils the blood in your brain to the point where all you can think about is making the person next to you weep tears of defeat... you bet your ass there are rules to be followed.

I agree with your second statement. About the cheap characters, if they're in the game and all parties agree that the entire roster is fair game, would it be sportsmanlike to count certain characters as "cheap?" Even if they really are cheap, wouldn't that still count as a win since everyone knows they have certain moves that make the match possibly uneven?

It's in the game it counts. End of story. Unless like, you play on a real competitive level at something then that's different. Then only what you have done in all official competitions (i.e. like in sporting events, competitions, and seasons) is what "matters" I guess. But in my opinion, as someone who likes to have fun and do good at things, every match/game matters, because it is you playing in it.

It feels like you are talking about competitive game theory. For that, I would say for a match to be competitive, both players have to agree to it beforehand. Not every match has to be serious. In fact, most shouldn't be.

But once a match starts for real, oh, its on! It should be really really rare a match to be invalidated.

Of course, this is all about "serious" gaming. Most people don't play that way, and I have more fun just messing around.

@mackgyver: Yes cheap is relative. The group decides what is fair in the end.

Are there any competitive games where all characters are completely, or even close to, fair and even without any cheap moves etc.?

@zleunamme: You beat me to it.

Everything counts

You cheat or are consistently going against the house rules and people just won't play with you.

ALL OR NOTHING

Makes sense. If you choose to play a competitive match it does count because you chose to play it. No one forced you and you know what you're getting into.

@mackgyver: When it's someone as competitive as Dan - who likes to pretend he's not "an excuse kind of guy" - then yes, everything should count. Dan had long enough to get acclimatized and got merced. And using Ninja Kid, too... Tsk, tsk. Nah, I love Dan. I'm sure neither took it that seriously. But yes, it counted.

Every action influences following actions, so yeah. Everything counts.

@dirtyrandy: Fatal determinism all the way baby.

Yes plenty, but people will still say something is cheap if it's winning against them.