Ceasefire in Gaza

Pretty surprising to me, but I imagine things won't end gracefully.

Hopefully this hasn't been discussed yet.

Gotta have peace on the home front before bombing the shit out of Iran right?

Well hopefully the ceasefire lasts a little longer.

Also hope Hamas doesn't get reelected but after this I have to imagine that they're support within Gaza is stronger than ever.

This happens every couple of years. Ceasefires never work.

This Onion headline pretty much nails how I feel about it: Calm Sense Of Impending Violence Returns To Middle East As Ceasefire Brokered

Going to keep fighting until the scientific or religious apocalypses; though Israel does technically have the military force to do whatever they want in the middle east, not really sure if they'll always listen to external diplomats.

I have family in Gaza, life is pretty damn hard for them.

Good news for now, but it's hard to have hope for the future considering the long history of the hate and violence there. These latest events and circumstances have been especially frustrating, disturbing, and sad for me lately after the various revolts and progress towards democracy in the middle east the past several years. Two steps back is how it seems....from the outside looking in granted. Damnit.

It won't last, but at least it's fine for now. Hamas is to blame for all this, if they would stop firing rockets then Israel would stop doing air strikes. If your neighbor kept throwing grenades at your house and your family, you would fire back at them and you know it.

Israel is only trying to defend it's self.

@smcn said:

This Onion headline pretty much nails how I feel about it: Calm Sense Of Impending Violence Returns To Middle East As Ceasefire Brokered

I don't know what it is, but The Young Turks rub me the wrong way. Kinda smarmy. A bit off topic, but I've always felt weird about TYT.

@Trav:The Young Turks is a very biased outlet, they cater to the far left similar to how FOX caters to the far right.

I just laugh at TYT, I don't consider them credible.

@Trav:The Young Turks is a very biased outlet, they cater to the far left similar to how FOX caters to the far right.

I just laugh at TYT, I don't consider them credible.

@DonutFever:FOX does lie, but so does the TYT. I find them to be a joke of a "news" source and very unprofessional. TYT and FOX don't exist to inform people, they exist to feed people what they want to hear. The only people that like TYT are people with a far liberal bias.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

It won't last, but at least it's fine for now. Hamas is to blame for all this, if they would stop firing rockets then Israel would stop doing air strikes. If your neighbor kept throwing grenades at your house and your family, you would fire back at them and you know it.

Israel is only trying to defend it's self.

You can't just say that Hamas is the only side to blame for this. Israel is at fault as much as the other party is.

Educate yourself a bit with wikipedia links:

Israeli–Palestinian conflict

Gaza–Israel conflict

@DonutFever:FOX does lie, but so does the TYT. I find them to be a joke of a "news" source and very unprofessional. TYT and FOX don't exist to inform people, they exist to feed people what they want to hear. The only people that like TYT are people with a far liberal bias.

I hate the smarmy cunts on that entire network, but what they did say in that video is... right. Factually it's right.

There is way to much money to lose for some of these companies and lobbyists to have peace in the region, on both sides. Israel gets a fortune in foreign aide and there's no real reason to have peace if there's a risk of that going away as soon as there is peace. Granted that's not to say that there ever will be peace in that region. Palestine feels that they got that land ripped away from them after the Second World War, but let's also not forget that the Jews had that land ripped away from them centuries ago when the Roman Emperor Hadrian annihilated the Jews and scattered them from Israel which eventually led to Muslims taking the region over.

Let's face it that entire area has seen war for 2000 years. The Romans, the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews. The sand runs red with blood spilled for God. There will never be peace there because there can't be peace there. Ever.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@DonutFever:FOX does lie, but so does the TYT. I find them to be a joke of a "news" source and very unprofessional. TYT and FOX don't exist to inform people, they exist to feed people what they want to hear. The only people that like TYT are people with a far liberal bias.

Maybe they fell off the high-road but this review by a conservative, I might add, seems to imply that they have a slight left leaning but are generally neutral and are very good for showing the viewer sourced facts before giving their reports on them. That seemed pretty much in line with that video, but I haven't seen all of their media so I can't be sure.

From your posts I get the feeling that you heard one opposing viewpoint to yours and immediately disregarded all of their content, but I might be assuming. Your aggressive posts do make you seem a little unreasonable though.

@Icemo:I'm a Jew, I know about the conflict, Israel has done some bad things but so has other countries such as the US, the UK etc....but overall Israel is in the right, they have the right values, they are a democracy and a beacon of freedom amidst a sea of tyrants. Israel has every right to exist and defend it's self, if Hamas was firing rockets at people in New York we would be pissed and do something about it. Israel is not evil, Hamas however is.

This is all Hamas's fault, not Israel. I don't mind the Palestinians getting a side state of their own, however that won't end the conflict and Israel's security must come first.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

but overall Israel is in the right, they have the right values, they are a democracy and a beacon of freedom amidst a sea of tyrants.

Rofl.

You started the post with "I'm a Jew, I know about the conflict." Well I'm a Israeli, and what you just said about Israel is laughable fiction.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@Icemo:I'm a Jew, I know about the conflict, Israel has done some bad things but so has other countries such as the US, the UK etc....but overall Israel is in the right, they have the right values, they are a democracy and a beacon of freedom amidst a sea of tyrants. Israel has every right to exist and defend it's self, if Hamas was firing rockets at people in New York we would be pissed and do something about it. Israel is not evil, Hamas however is.

This is all Hamas's fault, not Israel. I don't mind the Palestinians getting a side state of their own, however that won't end the conflict and Israel's security must come first.

Ignorance is a terrifying thing. Let's just stop the whole conversation before this thread gets locked down.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@Icemo:I'm a Jew, I know about the conflict, Israel has done some bad things but so has other countries such as the US, the UK etc....but overall Israel is in the right, they have the right values, they are a democracy and a beacon of freedom amidst a sea of tyrants. Israel has every right to exist and defend it's self, if Hamas was firing rockets at people in New York we would be pissed and do something about it. Israel is not evil, Hamas however is.

This is all Hamas's fault, not Israel. I don't mind the Palestinians getting a side state of their own, however that won't end the conflict and Israel's security must come first.

then do you think that the israeli settlements in the west bank are right too?

because they arent

@ShadowMoses900: Wow. You bumped an old thread on a controversial topic with an obvious bias, a one-sided approach and an opinion stated as fact. I think we recently had a thread on this topic locked because it blew up in a really obnoxious way... and I expect the same will be the case for this thread, now.

@AhmadMetallic:If you are really Israeli, you would know what I'm talking about. Israel gives women equal rights, they can dress how they want and go where they want and marry who they want. Israel allows freedom of religion, it even allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military. These things do not happen in Arab countries.

This is why Israel is a good country to support.

@Animasta:No that's not right, they shouldn't break Israel's national law. Those settlements are illegal and they do nothing but fuel the conflict.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@AhmadMetallic:If you are really Israeli, you would know what I'm talking about. Israel gives women equal rights, they can dress how they want and go where they want and marry who they want. Israel allows freedom of religion, it even allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military. These things do not happen in Arab countries.

This is why Israel is a good country to support.

good thing that the PLO is a secular organization then huh

The PLO are not as bad as they used to be, they are at least no longer committed to the destruction of Israel. But they are hardly secular, Israel however is a secular country.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@AhmadMetallic:If you are really Israeli, you would know what I'm talking about.

Yeah Ahmad, you've been doing a pretty good job of keeping up this charade for almost 20,000 posts, but now I see right through your silly farce. You're as much an Israeli as @Video_Game_King is Lunarian! Game's over, pal.

...kidding, of course. This guy's absolutely ridiculous.

@TooWalrus:

But I am Lunarian :|.

Around 800 years ago, European colonists founded a state in the holy land based on western values and religion. Although they succeeded in establishing an advanced economy and a formidable military class, they were unable to create a sustainable political status quo with their Muslim neighbors. As geo-political dynamics shifted, they stopped receiving the financial investment, military aid, and immigration of skilled colonists that their state had become dependent on. Eventually their security was no longer sustainable, and the state collapsed. Those were Christians, but I think the same thing is happening today.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@AhmadMetallic:If you are really Israeli, you would know what I'm talking about. Israel gives women equal rights, they can dress how they want and go where they want and marry who they want. Israel allows freedom of religion, it even allows homosexuals to serve openly in the military. These things do not happen in Arab countries.

This is why Israel is a good country to support.

I didn't realize that providing the human rights that most of the states of the world provide today makes you a beacon of freedom. I also didn't realize that those things you listed are all a country needs to be considered a democracy and a state of good values.

There is incredible injustice towards the Arab citizens when it comes to taxes, career privileges, education and many other fields. The government is not fully democratic and does not give you complete freedom. I was in a peaceful demonstration in Jerusalem last week, led by both Arabs and Jews (the good left-wing Jews) and we were attacked and beaten by a big squad of police officers and militants. The government is controlled by the radical right-wing Jews (they're basically neo-Nazis, it's the funniest fucking irony ever) and is driven by them to acts of violence and injustice and continuous, indirect violations of the rights of the citizens.

Not to mention that those who speak out against this "democratic" state get fucked up. If you manage to reach a political position and you speak against them, they either banish you (Ra'id Salah, Azmy Bshara among others), imprison and torture you, slap a fake connection on you to Hamas or Hezbullah, or if you're out of their reach, they BAN YOU from visiting the country (Norman Finklestein).

They have the big guns, the money, the US backing, the advanced defense systems, and they're supposed to be the peaceful side of the conflict, yet instead of trying to reach a non-violent peace resolution, they bombard the Gaza strip (which they have been inhumanely besieging for years, keeping it in an open-air prison state), massacring innocents including kids and old women like your grandmother, NOT because they're trying to defend themselves, but because the right-wing Jewish parties celebrate the death of the Arabs and ask for more.

You're a Jew, you probably speak Hebrew. Watch this influential Kenneset leader shout "We've killed a few? Fuck that, let's demolish Gaza and crank up the death count to thousands!"

That Nazi up there is a sample of the people controlling the government.

And don't get me started on Israel's Apartheid.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@Icemo:I'm a Jew, I know about the conflict, Israel has done some bad things but so has other countries such as the US, the UK etc....but overall Israel is in the right, they have the right values, they are a democracy and a beacon of freedom amidst a sea of tyrants. Israel has every right to exist and defend it's self, if Hamas was firing rockets at people in New York we would be pissed and do something about it. Israel is not evil, Hamas however is.

This is all Hamas's fault, not Israel. I don't mind the Palestinians getting a side state of their own, however that won't end the conflict and Israel's security must come first.

They're a beacon of freedom my ass. Why the fuck can't they handle their own shit, why does the US constantly have to gild their ceasefire talks with more money and supplies for missile defense systems. Israel isn't a poor nation; they get $3 BILLION FUCKING DOLLARS from the USA every year. Honestly, I wish the US would stop acting like we owe Israel something. We owe them nothing. Fuck, it makes my blood boil.

@murisan:It is very vital to world's best interest, JFK explained it better in this quote:

"Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."-JFK

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnfkenn143338.html#W1vRhFhobtkXwTM7.99

@boj4ngles said:

Around 800 years ago, European colonists founded a state in the holy land based on western values and religion. Although they succeeded in establishing an advanced economy and a formidable military class, they were unable to create a sustainable political status quo with their Muslim neighbors. As geo-political dynamics shifted, they stopped receiving the financial investment, military aid, and immigration of skilled colonists that their state had become dependent on. Eventually their security was no longer sustainable, and the state collapsed. Those were Christians, but I think the same thing is happening today.

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

@RollingZeppelin said:

@boj4ngles said:

Around 800 years ago, European colonists founded a state in the holy land based on western values and religion. Although they succeeded in establishing an advanced economy and a formidable military class, they were unable to create a sustainable political status quo with their Muslim neighbors. As geo-political dynamics shifted, they stopped receiving the financial investment, military aid, and immigration of skilled colonists that their state had become dependent on. Eventually their security was no longer sustainable, and the state collapsed. Those were Christians, but I think the same thing is happening today.

History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

I hope this doesn't happen because most citizens in Israel are probably very decent people, but it things don't look good for them in the long run. They need to ditch their right wing governments and adopt a serious strategy for peace that makes room for compromises. The arab spring uprisings are proof that time is not on their side.

@ShadowMoses900: Please, just be silent. Did you even read AhmadMetallic's post?

I think some folks need to chill out, I understand this is a touchy subject for people who may have friends or family within the conflict zone or who may come from the countries involved.

But the site rules still apply and nobody wants this discussion to escalate into a flame war. There's a lot of talk about a ceasefire to the conflict so I suggest people consider the same for this discussion, agree to disagree at the very least.

@boj4ngles: Yes, I agree. I wish the governments would dedicate their resources into making peace instead of murdering innocents, but the fact is that the people in power rely on the violence to stay in power, this conflict will never end as long as the current parties are in control. I'm not sure what the solution is, I don't even know if the Isreali people want a different government, but something needs to change for there to be any solution.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@murisan:It is very vital to world's best interest, JFK explained it better in this quote:

"Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom."-JFK

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnfkenn143338.html#W1vRhFhobtkXwTM7.99

So much nope. Nope. NOPE. It carries a history in religion, and THAT. IS. IT. I don't care what JFK said. I care about logic and doing what's right. I believe in minding your own business and improving your own country. The United States has a long way to go before we need to be helping other countries, ESPECIALLY ISRAEL. The $3bn we spend on that country every year needs to go to Africa or towards our own infrastructure. Israel is a big boy now.

@AhmadMetallic:I posted a response but for some reason Giant Bomb wouldn't post it, just infinite load. So I will do a brief version of it.

It is disgusting what that man said, I do not hate Arabs at all, in fact we are brothers and cousins, we both have Abram's blood in us. People that say peace is impossible is not true, I am an American Jew and went to a kibbutz where I saw both Arab and Jewish children living and playing side by side. Peace is certainly possible.

I am sorry to hear your story, but I have never heard a thing like this before from anyone in Israel. I didn't know certain political factions there exiled or black listed people who disagree with certain actions. Not saying you are lying but I find this a bit hard to believe, last time I checked the Israeli Constitution allowed freedom of speech, and there are Arabs that live and work in Israel, some of them are even in the Israeli government.

I do agree with you about certain political factions however, I don't think the Orthodox and other such Jewish groups should have as much power as they do in Israel. They also stop other Jews from the States and abroad from going to Israel, for example a friend of mine is not ethnically Jewish, she is Korean but she converted to Judaism through Reform but under the Law of Return she is not allowed because she did not do an Orthodox conversion. I don't think that's right at all.

There is also growing conflict between the secular Jews (it's not contradictory) and the religious Jews in Israel.

@Hamz said:

I think some folks need to chill out, I understand this is a touchy subject for people who may have friends or family within the conflict zone or who may come from the countries involved.

But the site rules still apply and nobody wants this discussion to escalate into a flame war. There's a lot of talk about a ceasefire to the conflict so I suggest people consider the same for this discussion, agree to disagree at the very least.

I'm not being an asshole or anything, I honestly don't understand what you classify as "flame wars." In order to help not escalate into that flame war, can you give an example of a flammatory post in this thread?

We're discussing the ceasefire and the conflict, some of us are defending one side, the others are defending the other side. There's neither cursing, nor insulting, nor posting graphic/provoking pictures or videos.. This is a political argument, where is the flame?

@AhmadMetallic: There's a fair bit of tension in the topic and my post is there to give everyone a clear idea of what is expected of them for this topic to continue to stay open.

@murisan said:

So much nope. Nope. NOPE. It carries a history in religion, and THAT. IS. IT. I don't care what JFK said. I care about logic and doing what's right. I believe in minding your own business and improving your own country. The United States has a long way to go before we need to be helping other countries, ESPECIALLY ISRAEL. The $3bn we spend on that country every year needs to go to Africa or towards our own infrastructure. Israel is a big boy now.

This. I like how the conflict has (of course) devolved into the typical black and white good guys vs. bad guys in people's minds. It's becoming increasingly popular to hate Israel and think of the Palestinians as helpless refugees. Doesn't anyone remember what happened in Munich? Or perhaps the Yom Kippur War? My point is that the issue is a million times more complicated than it's made out to be by either side. NOTE: I do NOT support Israel OR Palestine OR Hamas, as far as I'm concerned the conflict is none of our business, especially considering Israel is no longer a strategic ally to the US in the Middle East. Both groups can go fuck themselves, but I'm really tired of seeing people twisting the facts for the sake of validating their emotional connection to whatever group. Grow up or this shit will never end.

@murisan:I agree that we should send aid to countries in Africa as well, but I also believe we should support Israel. I have friends and family that live over there, from my perspective when people bash Israel and say they are against it, it sounds like to me they are saying Israel shouldn't exist and the people that live there have no right to defend themselves. This is just how it comes across to me.

Now I understand why the Palestinians are upset, and perhaps Israel could do more for them, I'm not against having a Palestinian state living side by side, but Israel's security must come first and foremost. See if your neighbor was throwing grenades at your house and family, you would fire at them and you know it, that's all Israel is doing in this case. It's merely defending it's self and it's people.

The cease fire will not work in the long run, the fact is that Hamas is a terrorist organization, this is how they are listed by the US, the EU, and the UN. Hamas often hides behind civilians and uses their homes for cover, if Hamas stops firing rockets Israel would not be doing drone strikes.

@ShadowMoses900: Yes, I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but Israel should know better than to do EXACTLY what Hamas wants and bomb civilian areas. Hamas wins when they do that.

@ShadowMoses900 said:

@AhmadMetallic:

It is disgusting what that man said, I do not hate Arabs at all, in fact we are brothers and cousins, we both have Abram's blood in us.

I couldn't agree more. I have Jewish friends, there are tons of good hearted peace-loving Jews, and to be honest I'm almost thankful for the Jewish occupation of Palestine because Israel today is (almost) an awesome state to live in, as a citizen. The fact that it was established by spilling the blood of the innocent is why I'm not thankful for it.

People that say peace is impossible is not true, I am an American Jew and went to a kibbutz where I saw both Arab and Jewish children living and playing side by side. Peace is certainly possible.

Sadly, no it's not possible. Hamas is a stupid bunch of dicks whose numbers are smaller than the residents of my village, and they keep throwing rocks at Israel. Israel is a tyrant state led by blood-hungry right-wing influences that welcomes those rocks and loves responding with mass murder. The US enjoys selling weapons to Israel. This triangle of interests will make sure the war will never end.

I am sorry to hear your story, but I have never heard a thing like this before from anyone in Israel. I didn't know certain political factions there exiled or black listed people who disagree with certain actions. Not saying you are lying but I find this a bit hard to believe,

I'm sure your Israeli friends don't want you to get a bad impression of the country. Look up the names I gave you: Ra'ed Salah, Azmy Bishara (politicians who were exiled), Norman Finklestein (a Jewish American writer who is banned from Israel because he opposes its policies). Those are just a sample, there are long lists.

The peaceful standing-still-on-the-fucking-ground demonstration I was in which was disrupted with violence and the arrest of FIVE citizens, two of which are jewish: http://www.panet.co.il/online/articles/1/2/S-616417,1,2.html

Here's a picture of that demonstration:

And then....

last time I checked the Israeli Constitution allowed freedom of speech, and there are Arabs that live and work in Israel, some of them are even in the Israeli government.

Saying one thing and doing another is Israel's religion. I'm sure the constitution is not gonna admit to violence and injustice...

And yes, around 2 million of the state's 7 million citizens are Arabs, I'm one of them, we live (mostly) peacefully and have jobs and Kenneset representative, but the daily economical and privilege injustice, as well as the continuous assault on Arabs in alienated areas who are less fortunate than myself, are facts of life here.

I do agree with you about certain political factions however, I don't think the Orthodox and other such Jewish groups should have as much power as they do in Israel. They also stop other Jews from the States and abroad from going to Israel, for example a friend of mine is not ethnically Jewish, she is Korean but she converted to Judaism through Reform but under the Law of Return she is not allowed because she did not do an Orthodox conversion. I don't think that's right at all.

There is also growing conflict between the secular Jews (it's not contradictory) and the religious Jews in Israel.

This is one of the reasons Israel always creates a new boogy-man to fight. If the religious and non-religious Jews didn't have an enemy to unite against (natives in 1948, Egypt and Syria in 1950-1973, Iraq in 1990-1994, Hamas from the 80's til today, Iran in the few last years), the religious and non-religious Jews would eat each other alive. The turmoil between them is unbelievable. Hence why this state loves war - to keep civil war at bay.

@murisan:What choice does Israel have? It's either that or a ground strike which would be far more deadly. Israel has the military force to go get rid of Gaza completely if they wanted to, but they don't (nor should they as that would be wrong) because that would harm civilians. You also have to bear in mind that Hamas USES civilians as human shields and bunkers down in their homes to hide in, you are ignoring quite a bit here.

The bottom line is that Hamas has to be destroyed. They won't stop firing rockets at civilians, how would you like to live in a place where at any moment a rocket can come flying into your home and kill you and your family? You wouldn't stand for it would you? That's all Israel is doing, it's terribly tragic that civilians are killed in these drone strikes but Hamas (who the Palestinian people put into power) doesn't care about them at all.

@murisan said:

@ShadowMoses900: Yes, I agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization, but Israel should know better than to do EXACTLY what Hamas wants and bomb civilian areas. Hamas wins when they do that.

yeah this is my point too.

@AhmadMetallic: your post really saddens me.

I'm always hoping that we'll find a reasonable and tolerant peace partner in the next generation of the Palestinians, and an understanding with the Israeli-Arabs (even with last week's bus bombing).

The video you've linked is pretty awful, but I'm sure (or sincerely hope?) that you know that most of us, even in the government, really condone such behavior, and that does not reflect the majority of the Israelis.

Most of us just want to co-exist, and I still hope that one day we will find a partner with the same idea on the other side.

It is a tragedy that civilians are killed in the crossfire between terrorists and a state, but what will more money and missile defenses do for Israel? Lower the bodycount further? What was it before the ceasefire, like 9 Israelis died, and several thousand Palestinians? That's what I pay attention to. That's what bothers me. If the US is going to give the area money, we should invest it better than giving Israel a better "Iron Dome." Fuck. Fuck fuck fuck.