Did Ledger's Death Change The Dark Knight Rises Story?

I can't help but wonder if this is how it would have played out if Heath Ledger were still alive. Would Nolan have continued the story of the Joker or weaved him into the Bane story line? Would there even be a Bane story line this soon? I've heard Nolan and the rest of the cast say that this is the conclusion, the final Batman movie Nolan will make. Could Ledger's death have caused Nolan to "shortcut" his plans for Batman? Yes, a new Joker could have been selected but I believe Ledger embodied exactly what Nolan was looking for and it would be most difficult to find another. Though we may never know if this was the full vision Nolan had for Batman, it still makes me wonder what could have been.

No, I don't think Nolan really wanted to drag the Joker into a whole 'nother movie. That arc was fully explored in one movie. I think he probably wanted to introduce a new villain in the newest movie, and rightly so - it's more interesting that way.

Also, I haven't even seen Rises.

@believer258 said:

No, I don't think Nolan really wanted to drag the Joker into a whole 'nother movie. That arc was fully explored in one movie. I think he probably wanted to introduce a new villain in the newest movie, and rightly so - it's more interesting that way.

Also, I haven't even seen Rises.

This is about right. I mean, in the comics.. it's excusable, because that's a different medium. But to repeat Joker again in another movie without exploring a lot of villains first wouldn't work so well. Nolan probably had plans to end it at 3 movies for awhile.

I have yet to see the new one (I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit), but I feel like any plan at all to keep the series going longer than 3 movies died when he did. I could easily have seen them go on for another movie or two and then cap off the very end with another final Joker experience, but who knows. I will say that the second movie is one of my favorite movies of all time mostly in part to his simply fantastic performance as the Joker. It really sucks that we'll never be able to see another performance like that from him.

Maybe not another movie with the Joker but a cameo or side story in Rises. I wonder if he would have popped up or if Nolan had plans to use him. Just a thought...

I think so; Scarecrow was a cameo, after all. Joker would have probably made a small appearance in a neat little scene.

It definitely wouldn't have been another story with Joker at its center, but he would have made some kind of appearance with all of the connections that were made throughout the movies in Rises.

I think Joker would have been a big part, but the core story would have been the same with Bane still the main bad guy.

I'm pretty sure Ledger wasn't supposed to die and would've gotten a sizable part in the third film. Who the hell knows what that could have been, though? While it does seem like the Bane arc in Rises is a natural extension of the War on Terror allegory, they also took it to NeoCon insanity with "Goddamn it capitalism is what will save us! Never mind that class warfare bullshit!" tattooed on the forehead of this film. It's hard to say why Rises is such a goddamn mess, but if people want to pin it all on Ledger dying and thus ruining Nolan's grand vision (hint: he didn't have one) then sure, why not?

I image that Nolan had plans to do more with him, but I don't think Ledger's death caused the entire film to change from the ground up.

I'm not sure. I liked Ledger's performance and I was skeptical at first. I never really cared about Joker until I saw that film. At the time, the only iterations of Joker, but he's way more sinister and interesting in the graphic novels. I would have liked to see more, but I feel like it would take most of the attention away from the other bad guys.

I've seen an interview with him, David Goyer, and Jonathan Nolan saying that, had Heath Ledger still been alive, he would have been heavily involved in the story. So yes, I think his death changed the story.

I don't know if he would have been the main villain, but I can only assume he would have played a somewhat significant role in the third film. Something at least comparable to how The Scarecrow appeared in The Dark Knight after being defeated in Batman Begins.

The joker will come back to life during the batman reboot.The batman reboot will be more comic bookish which will result in magic that somehow brings him back to life. This joker will be more like his video-game counter-part since he came back as a different persona.I'm just speculating.

@RandyF said:

I've seen an interview with him, David Goyer, and Jonathan Nolan saying that, had Heath Ledger still been alive, he would have been heavily involved in the story. So yes, I think his death changed the story.

Really? Do you know interview that was per chance?

I have yet to see the new one (I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit)

I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit

Until the crowd at the theaters dies down

Crowd at the theaters dies

Considering Nolan didn't want to make a third movie, I don't think it impacted it very much.

I still think Heath's Joker would've been featured in some form or another in Rises. Maybe his random form of chaos would have screwed Bane's plan up at the end or something since he would've been among the criminals who escaped from Blackgate. I don't think Nolan would have left such an extremely popular character out just because its a different movie.

@ShadowConqueror: Joker's different from Crane. He doesn't want to destroy the city entirely by nuclear means, he wants to get to Batman. I think if Joker was there he wouldn't be on Bane's side. Remember killing Bat's is something that only Joker feels he has a right to.

Sure it did. No doubt about it. They would have made a different movie if Ledger didn't ride the handsome one at the clearing on the end of the path.

@ImmortalSaiyan: David Goyer did say in an interview of Joker's possible involvement in the third movie would have been in the third. It would show Joker's trial. Maybe something in the beginning.

@ImmortalSaiyan: It was directly after The Dark Knight came out and I was looking at interviews on YouTube. It was at a Comic Con I believe and it was a panel of some kind. It was a long time ago. David Goyer said that if Heath Ledger were still alive it would be a "no brainer" for him to be involved.

Try searching David Goyer stuff on YouTube maybe? Sorry, but I can't really remember much about it. It was nearly four years ago now.

@RandyF@ImmortalSaiyan: I think this is what you are looking for?

@DillonWerner said:

@RandyF@ImmortalSaiyan: I think this is what you are looking for?

hmmm it's really interesting to think about. Considering how they brought Scarecrow back it would make some sense. I wonder how things would have changed.

We will never know.

@MikeGosot said:

@DoctorWelch said:

I have yet to see the new one (I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit)

@DoctorWelch said:

I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit

@DoctorWelch said:

Until the crowd at the theaters dies down

@DoctorWelch said:

Crowd at the theaters dies

Ouch.

Hahahahaha wow, I didn't even try that...oops :P

I think the Joker would have been in prison, and Batman would have visited him a few times and talked about Bane, but I doubt he would have a been a major character.

@MikeGosot said:

@DoctorWelch said:

I have yet to see the new one (I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit)

@DoctorWelch said:

I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit

@DoctorWelch said:

Until the crowd at the theaters dies down

@DoctorWelch said:

Crowd at the theaters dies

Ouch.

HAHAHAHAAHHAHA.

Oh, my night was made.

I would guess he would have appeared in some new flashbacks.

I think he would have been mentioned, but due to his death, Nolan left him out for respect of Ledger's legacy.

@PhilESkyline said:

@ImmortalSaiyan: David Goyer did say in an interview of Joker's possible involvement in the third movie would have been in the third. It would show Joker's trial. Maybe something in the beginning.

God dammit that could have been so awesome. Heath Ledger's death truly was tragic.

@DoctorWelch said:

@MikeGosot said:

@DoctorWelch said:

I have yet to see the new one (I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit)

@DoctorWelch said:

I'm waiting until the crowd at the theaters dies down a bit

@DoctorWelch said:

Until the crowd at the theaters dies down

@DoctorWelch said:

Crowd at the theaters dies

Ouch.

Hahahahaha wow, I didn't even try that...oops :P

i actually saw that also, but didn't want to say anything. i also am waiting so it's not so crowded.

anyway, yeah, i think it changed the story to it. the movie was probably going to have joker and some other villains as joker. joker was made huge in that movie, with posters, tshirts.

I don't know how much the Joker would have been in the new film. While Bane might have used him I think he might have been a cameo at best like Scarecrow. To me, Bane was more threatening than Joker so having another film with him might have been a downer unless the Joker somehow unites other Villains against batman. Lets be honest though, any other characters in the Nolan universe would have been silly to throw in. Poising Ivy? Too fantasy. Mr. Freeze? Too Sci Fi. The Riddler? Possibly, but too me not powerful enough. It might have been interesting to see Penguin though, I'm sure Nolan could have some sort of old money vs new money type of theme (even though that doesn't exist as much anymore) and I think he could have somehow fit the Joker into all of that as well as "upsetting the established order".

The whole idea of Bane in the newest film felt right in my opinion. A lot of purists from the comic book are going to disagree, but I'm glad Bane wasn't a raging moron on steroids. Yeah the Joker was cool, but I think we should all leave his character with Ledger and not have anyone try to fill it in. In fact, I think they should really leave Batman alone for awhile. The trilogy is done, it was wrapped up good in a tight bow and now we have Man of Steel to look forward too.

Nolan doesn't tend to use the same villain again, so I don't think so.

@Bobby_The_Great said:

I think he would have been mentioned, but due to his death, Nolan left him out for respect of Ledger's legacy.

He actually gets a mention IIRC. Bane says something to the effect of Joker was the light and Bane is the explosion.

@SomeDeliCook said:

@Bobby_The_Great said:

I think he would have been mentioned, but due to his death, Nolan left him out for respect of Ledger's legacy.

He actually gets a mention IIRC. Bane says something to the effect of Joker was the light and Bane is the explosion.

SPOILERS:

No, he was talking about Ras.

@Whitestripes09 said:

I don't know how much the Joker would have been in the new film. While Bane might have used him I think he might have been a cameo at best like Scarecrow. To me, Bane was more threatening than Joker so having another film with him might have been a downer unless the Joker somehow unites other Villains against batman. Lets be honest though, any other characters in the Nolan universe would have been silly to throw in. Poising Ivy? Too fantasy. Mr. Freeze? Too Sci Fi. The Riddler? Possibly, but too me not powerful enough. It might have been interesting to see Penguin though, I'm sure Nolan could have some sort of old money vs new money type of theme (even though that doesn't exist as much anymore) and I think he could have somehow fit the Joker into all of that as well as "upsetting the established order".

The whole idea of Bane in the newest film felt right in my opinion. A lot of purists from the comic book are going to disagree, but I'm glad Bane wasn't a raging moron on steroids. Yeah the Joker was cool, but I think we should all leave his character with Ledger and not have anyone try to fill it in. In fact, I think they should really leave Batman alone for awhile. The trilogy is done, it was wrapped up good in a tight bow and now we have Man of Steel to look forward too.

Bane isn't a "raging moron on steroids" in the comics. That was an invention by the shitty Batman movies. In the comics, Bane is in many ways Batman's equal in terms of intellect.

Yes, I think they would have had him in it again since he did so well as The Joker. You just don't stop using someone as memorable as that. I haven't yet seen The Dark Knight Rises, but they should have still had something on him, maybe the type of thing they did with Batman in The Dark Knight where they had copy-cat Batman's, but this time there'd be copy-cat Jokers or something, and I think if they showed at least something of it on TV, like Bruce Wayne is watching something like a trial. Also, has anyone watched the Collegehumor's Badman? I find that pretty hilarious.

http://www.collegehumor.com/videos/playlist/6798557/badman-playlist

Watch them all.

@Meowshi: Dude actually physically spoiler that shit dammit. Don't just write SPOILERS like a fucking idiot. This thread has had no spoilers in it and yo drop that?

have to go with this, you don't just throw away gold.

@NTM said:

Yes, I think they would have had him in it again since he did so well as The Joker. You just don't stop using someone as memorable as that.

I believe if Heath was still alive he may be mentioned or even have a cameo like Scarecrow.

I got the impression after Dark Knight that they did want to keep him going, but I doubt the studio would have wanted that, even if Nolan did. The Joker's line that "we're destined to do this forever" or whatever, and then not really seeing exactly what happened to him--cops got him obviously but so what--and also Scarecrow's constant appearances all gave me the impression that Nolan had wanted to keep him going in some capacity.

@Cheesebob said:

@Meowshi: Dude actually physically spoiler that shit dammit. Don't just write SPOILERS like a fucking idiot. This thread has had no spoilers in it and yo drop that?

Can't figure the spoiler thing out. I click on Spoiler and Spoiler Block and nothing ever happens. This forum technology is garbage.

I doubt he would have played a big role, but he definitely would have showed up.

After seeing Rises, I wondered if Arkham Asylum would have been "liberated" instead of Blackrock Prison if Ledger didn't die.