Is Fat Shaming A Problem In America?

@KaosAngel said:

Hell, Canada is just on top of USA and they don't have this issue.

Well, you know how polite us Canadians are. If we're going to be on top, we're going to do what we can to make sure we don't crush you. Either that, or we'll just end up apologizing the whole time...

@the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG:

Sugar often gets blame, but its consumption hasn't increased over the past few years while obesity has. We exercise less than we used to, that's the problem.

@DoctorWelch: You hit the nail on the head.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT said:

@Brodehouse said:

So, @DoctorWelch: how does one person being fat affect others? How does a society with fat people affect the non-fat people in that society?

@TheHT: In my country it works through the taxes that everyone pays. Indirectly you are paying for the concequences of people being obese. This occurs on a greater scale in other, more social economies that are not America.

Also money you spend on insurance is affected by the prevalance of incidents involving obese people to some extent. But the affect that has is not easily measurable due to the general variance and other dodgy things that go on at an insurance company.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: Also you are missing the point, higher prices are bad for everyone. It pushes health insurance further away from people who already couldnt afford it, and out of the reach of people who spared enough for it before.

So peoples (obese) lifestyles, in most cases, are stopping the needy from protection from medical procedures. Get it?

People who genuinely cannot physically lose weight for some reason are obviously excluded from this equation.

Right, so that's literally all there is then? Insurance? Treat people like shit because the risk their bodies are at of needing healthcare means you need to pay higher premiums. That's reasonable to you?

@DoctorWelch said:

@TheHT: Are you kidding? So you don't think thousands upon thousands of people being overweight effects a society? It effects anything and everything. It effects the food in how much people are eating and what they are eating. Which then effects prices and production. For instance, if American's weren't so fat, fast food restaurants would not be nearly as profitable as they are. Their health will drastically impact medicine, and if you have socialized health care it will be even worse. Activity levels and efficiency of workers is drastically decreased because of the negative physical and mental impacts being overweight has on the body. What people wear, what's popular, what businesses succeed and fail, any number of things are impacted by a large overweight population.

Think about this. If we as a society refused to eat shit that is horrible for us. Companies wouldn't make shit that's unhealthy because it wouldn't be profitable.

Good of you to finally relay some examples. Unfortunately arguing that fat people make food more expensive and less abundant for others is a weak argument when you consider that a) there have been plenty of fat people for a long time and food prices increase for reasons other than 'fatties r eatin up teh foodz' and b) there is an overabundance of food in the world, enough to feed literally everyone, so if you're genuinely complaining that fat people are eating up too much food such that you can't get any, all you're complaining about is someone elses overindulgence affecting your overindulgence. I highly doubt a poor individual who can't afford to eat will blame fat people for their predicament.

What makes you think the fat people are what makes the fast food restaurants profitable? Could it be the fat people are fat because of the fast food restaurants? Because they're cheap, convenient, and relatively tasty? You're putting the horse before the cart here.

If an individual who can't physically perform well is hired for physically-intensive work, then the fault lies with the stupidity of the employer.

Fat people do not hold significant sway over fashion. Fat people do not hold significant sway over pop culture. Fat people do not hold significant sway of the general success of failure of overall business ventures. You're irrationally overextending this phantom influence fat people have over the world you live in.

@DoctorWelch said:

@TheHT said:

So healthcare is why we should emotionally hammer the fats?

It's an issue of overstepping your boundaries, pushing yourself into someone elses life and attempting to wrest control of it so you can what? Save some money on your insurance premiums? All this done with the time-tested and always successful method of being an asshole. No, that's not OK.

Well I say being a fat drag on society because of the unwillingness to respect oneself and take care of the body is not okay. If you want to simply start throwing out random judgement calls of "This is okay" "This is not okay" without any real reasons why other than "I think this so I'm right" than we will be here for the rest of our lives. Nothing I have said I'm saying simply because I think it. I'm simply stating the facts about negative impacts vs positive impacts, and then I choose to say I'd rather have positives than negatives. If you want to choose negatives instead of positives, then be my guest.

That treating others as less than a person is wrong is a moral proposition. If you're here justifying "fat shaming" then you're taking a stance opposite to that, saying it's OK to lower a persons self-esteem in such and such circumstances. There is no avoiding a discussion of ethics here.

@DFSVegas said:

@TheHT said:

@DFSVegas said:

@Brodehouse said:

@DoctorWelch said:

@Brodehouse said:

No, you see; crime affects others. Criminal acts victimize others by nature. You have to be insane to try and draw parallels between crime and lethargy. Especially lethargy in one's personal time. At a perhaps. Judging others based on their personal, private lives doesn't make you philosophical, it makes you a petty tyrant.

Also, the word 'laziness' is not 'inherently negative'. That's not how words work. Because 'action' is not inherently positive. You may have been raised to believe if the culture you live in believes that work for no reason but to do it is positive.

Laziness is a negative word, that in fact is how words work. There are these things we call definitions, and along with that there are these things we call connotations. Laziness: "unwilling to work or be active; doing as little as possible". This is a negative no matter how you spin it. Also, a great ignorance of our day is acting as if personal choices that you don't perceive as having an effect on those around you shouldn't matter one way or the other. If you can't see or understand how an obese society hurts the society and the people that live in it, then I can't help you. There are many crimes that are choices which involve directly impact others on purpose, but there are also crimes dealing with the lack of doing something. This is because you don't always have to have harmful intentions to commit a crime. I'm not saying that being fat should be a crime because it shouldn't be, but the fact is that it is a choice to be fat, and it's a choice that does negatively effect others, whether you choose to see that or not.

Quite simply, you're wrong. 'Being active' is not positive, thus failing to be active cannot by itself be negative. Atilla the Hun was 'active'. The failure to be active is not inherently negative. Attempting to enter your views of sociology into structural linguistics is a worthless endeavor. An obese society is really not the argument here, it's an obese person. An obese person, or a thin one, has absolutely no control or responsibility over society as a whole, just as you have no agency over the greater social groups to which you belong. You've clearly lost your rationality in your last rambling paragraph, and I would love to hear you bring a case in front of a judge that fat people are exhibiting criminal negligence (this is the only secular law on record your 'harmful intentions' tangent is appropriate to) by tolerating their own continued existence. You've dug your heels in despite the lack of footing in anything that approaches social justice. The problem is not 'choosing to see', it's that you're so committed to a bad cause that you're taking larger and larger strides into impracticality. It's nonsensical, pride shouldn't mean this much to anyone.

Well, that's the point. If you don't care about how you look, then the teasing shouldn't/wont affect you.

If it does, then one should recognize that, as the obese person, they are their own problem. I don't personally go around smacking ice scream cones out of fat people's hands, but if asked, I will tell you how I feel. I have definitely have less respect for somebody who has a weight problem, but wont take the required steps to fix it.

It's the same for anything. Pity helps nobody. Adversity always makes you stronger. It almost never feels good, but if you have the will, it will push you.

And, fact is, being over weight will always affect your quality of life. It's not a secret. My dad is only 55, and is basically an invalid due to his weight. He struggles to climb the 20 or so steps in his house.

By the way, people being fat DOES effect society. There's a reason health care is so expensive here. There's a load of problems obesity creates, and that increases doctor visits, and in turn, that raises everybody's insurance premium. Normal, healthy people have to pay for other people's healthcare, simply because they find a way to avoid emergency care.

The idea that people should be free to do as the please because "it doesn't effect me" is bullshit. If you improve the quality of the people in the society, you in turn, improve society. Quality of one's physical being included.

As has been said, being fat caries zero positives, and being healthy carries a myriad of positives. There's zero reason to be lenient regarding this issue.

This isn't an issue of aesthetics, this is an issue of maintaining a strong and functional society. You can't have a strong society with flabby, weak minded people.

So healthcare is why we should emotionally hammer the fats?

It's an issue of overstepping your boundaries, pushing yourself into someone elses life and attempting to wrest control of it so you can what? Save some money on your insurance premiums? All this done with the time-tested and always successful method of being an asshole. No, that's not OK.

Isn't fucking up the health care system overstepping your boundaries? That definitely affects others.

Also, when was I an asshole, and when did I say it was OK to be an asshole? My point was just that we shouldn't spread misinformation about obesity. Weight is something that you can control, and there are known ways to control it. I'm always for compassion when it pertains to issues that are beyond one's control, even when it comes to obesity.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about people who just choose to be fucking slobs. You can't live like a fucking garbage disposal, and then ask for sympathy.

The health care system is there to take care of the individuals in a society. It's established and run by the government. The subjects of this system are not required to align their lifestyle to be in line with what is recommended for them. If you force someone to live a certain way, you are making a step on their autonomy. If you wish to extend a response blowing that statement out of proportion, saying something like "well laws force people to live a certain way" then we'll again have to look at the consequences of failing to follow that imperative.

Obesity/heathcare: higher premiums

lawlessness/government: collapse of responsibility and ultimately of a civilized society

Just a pre-emptive response to save myself some time.

And we're talking about "fat shaming" i.e. the title of this thread. It's not a question of sympathy or selective abuse. Treating someone like trash because of their weight is not OK.

@Simplexity said:

I don't understand why people are so bothered by people that are overweight, in what way does it affect them? I honestly don't understand.

In countries like mine where we have a publicly funded healthcare system obesity is a genuine burden on others. Also it's just kind of gross sitting next to a sweaty fat person on the bus/train/airplane...

Ahh Monterey, I was stationed there for about 2 years during language school. I know that Cold Stone well, they do military discounts!

I miss that town, pretty place.

Your lifestyle doesn't affect me, I'LL STILL TELL YOU HOW TO LIVE YOUR LIFE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!

In all honesty, if it doesn't directly affect you then you should just shut up about it and move on with your life without being a dick.

@JDW519 said:

It can be, there seems to be a mentality that being fat immediately means your lazy. There are so many more factors that can effect your weight, but most people will just draw the simple minded conclusion of exercise/food.

But it is that simple for a very large majority of the population. There aren't any factors other than "You are taking in more calories than you are burning". It's simple equation. Using fringe cases of people who truly can't control it makes for a weightless argument. Take those few people out of the equation, and you really do have a simple answer.

I'd love to hear even one example of something that could make a person fat beyond their control. Being addicted to eating shit food is always in your control.

@TheHT: You are still missing the point. Having healthcare is not about money, it's about peace of mind, your physical future and safety. It can be about survival. If you are risking this for others by being obese and being a drain on the welfare system or healthcare system, then you indirectly affect other people in a negative way. You can solve this by not being obese. Once again I feel the need to mention that this is not to be pointed at the medically obese.

It's not richmen fighting about the bottom line, it's about a necessity (healthcare) being unavailable to more and more people with the advent of further obesity in the world.

EDIT: Used the wrong "Peace", been listening to too much Iron Maiden lol

i was a fatty whilst i was at school many years ago and i attacted lots of name calling like 'fat basterd, fatty, fatso, rolly polly, moobman, chinsapleanty etc.

but i did something about it. i stopped eating shit and i went for long walks and rode my bike everywhere. and guess what... i lost weight and lots of it.

now im no longer a fatty. I no longer need to look for clothes that have the XXL labels. I can go swimming without people shouting 'jesus christ her comes a fat whale', i can walk more that 10 metre's with out needing to wipe my brow with a sweaty rag. the jacket i wear no longer looks like a family size tent.

looking back i think it was the name calling that made me make the effort and do something about it. if people had just accepted my rotundness and bloted man boobs i think i would still be like that today. in fact id most likely be much larger than i was. its a slippery slide (not that i would of been able to fit on a slide, plus the climbing up the ladder would of worn me out to much).

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: You are still missing the point. Having healthcare is not about money, it's about peace of mind, your physical future and safety. It can be about survival. If you are risking this for others by being obese and being a drain on the welfare system or healthcare system, then you indirectly affect other people in a negative way. You can solve this by not being obese. Once again I feel the need to mention that this is not to be pointed at the medically obese.

It's not richmen fighting about the bottom line, it's about a necessity (healthcare) being unavailable to more and more people with the advent of further obesity in the world.

EDIT: Used the wrong "Peace", been listening to too much Iron Maiden lol

Yeah no, I got it the first time and it's an overblown fear. Even when you reign it in to a more reasonable concern it still doesn't come close to justifying "fat shaming".

@TheHT: Yes it does? Obese people feeling bad vs people missing out on healthcare? It's obviously not that simple, but solving social issues with social pressure is a zero sum affair, it worked with smoking and it can work with obesity.

@KaosAngel: Wait, your telling me that people make fun of those different than them? This is news to me.

There was this fatgirl in a cross-country team I was in. Nobody made fun of her and we respected her in fact.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: Yes it does? Obese people feeling bad vs people missing out on healthcare? It's obviously not that simple, but solving social issues with social pressure is a zero sum affair, it worked with smoking and it can work with obesity.

Like I said, the fear that people are losing healthcare because fat people be eating it all up is so exaggerated it's ridiculous.

But if you want, I can humor you on it. Even if people were losing healthcare opportunities to fat people, what does insulting a random stranger who's fat do to help that? By berating a random fat person, do you actually think you're fixing that problem? You don't know anything about this person beyond their appearance, and you're going to go out of your way to belittle them because they might be using up more health insurance than other people?

Does that sound reasonable to you?

@TheHT: Why is the fear ridiculous? A large percentage of people are obese by choice.

I think your problem here is that you aren't looking at the big picture.

Insulting some person is really not a cool thing, but what happens if there is no social pressure from society? People won't feel guilty, some won't feel like they need to change, and will continue to damage their bodies at our expense.

If you quantise it so far to the point where it's just one person hurting another persons feelings for no reason, then sure, thats terrible. But this is a social issue, like smoking, the society does not want smokers to continue smoking and they do not want obese people to continue to be obese. Smoking is different because it directly affects others i.e. second hand smoke obviously. People will be upset with other people because the way they look implies something about them, some people will voice this, and like i've been saying; it can be useful.

I wouldn't insult a fat person simply because I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings whether they deserve it or not, but that is technically a social flaw.

People need criticism, it helps everyone in every stage of their lives. Taking criticism and using it is something we strive to do, and we can't avoid other peoples opinions. Especially if they are correct.

@Praab_NZ said:

I wouldn't insult a fat person simply because I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings whether they deserve it or not, but that is technically a social flaw.

People need criticism, it helps everyone in every stage of their lives. Taking criticism and using it is something we strive to do, and we can't avoid other peoples opinions. Especially if they are correct.

Show me one person who was, or is, overweight that cites receiving insults as the biggest help to them losing, or having lost weight.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: Why is the fear ridiculous? A large percentage of people are obese by choice.

I think your problem here is that you aren't looking at the big picture.

Insulting some person is really not a cool thing, but what happens if there is no social pressure from society? People won't feel guilty, some won't feel like they need to change, and will continue to damage their bodies at our expense.

If you quantise it so far to the point where it's just one person hurting another persons feelings for no reason, then sure, thats terrible. But this is a social issue, like smoking, the society does not want smokers to continue smoking and they do not want obese people to continue to be obese. Smoking is different because it directly affects others i.e. second hand smoke obviously. People will be upset with other people because the way they look implies something about them, some people will voice this, and like i've been saying; it can be useful.

I wouldn't insult a fat person simply because I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings whether they deserve it or not, but that is technically a social flaw.

People need criticism, it helps everyone in every stage of their lives. Taking criticism and using it is something we strive to do, and we can't avoid other peoples opinions. Especially if they are correct.

Choice has nothing do with it the fear of fat people causing widespread lack of healthcare. It's ridiculous because it's a left-field and extreme suggestion.

I'm less concerned with grand fearmongering and more concerned with quality of life for all people, fat people included. Informing overweight people of the risks of being so doesn't require "fat shaming". And if someone doesn't want to change then who are you two force them to? If it ever truly becomes such a problem for healthcare providers than there's nothing stopping them from refusing to accept fat people into their programs, or have programs specifically for people with higher risk. Taking it upon yourself to insult someone to apply "social pressure" isn't necessary, granting that this whole thing is ever an actual problem in health insurance.

Smoking and obesity aren't comparable in this regard. Second hand smoke has an actual effect on your own well-being. Hanging around fat people, does not. That's a significant difference that totally undermines any use of it in justifying "fat shaming". If you're puffing smoke in my face, there's nothing wrong with me telling you to cut it out because you're forcing me to breath in toxins and such. If a fat person starts stuffing food down your throat by all means tell them to fuck off, but if they're in front of you in a line for ice cream, there're not doing you any harm.

"Fat shaming" isn't mere criticism, and framing it as such, even taking liberties to make it out to be constructive criticism, is counter-productive to social development and, looking at the big picture, improving the human condition.

@mandude: I hope you aren't suggesting someone would cite 'recieving insults' as a reason for anything. It's about realising the truth and then striving to achieve a goal, its not about being insulted. It's the pressure that can help people move past stagnancy, not the reason they do anything.

@Rolyatkcinmai said:

Wait a minute, KaosAngel is still around? What the fuck is going on right now?

no kidding, can someone track this guy down? i'm beginning to suspect he's like cleverbot or something.

@Praab_NZ said:

@mandude: I hope you aren't suggesting someone would cite 'recieving insults' as a reason for anything. It's about realising the truth and then striving to achieve a goal, its not about being insulted. It's the pressure that can help people move past stagnancy, not the reason they do anything.

People who are overweight generally know that they're overweight. Insulting them is not going to help them realise any greater truth and even if it did, people do not respond to it in the same way you are suggesting they do, because the information they are receiving is still conveyed negatively.

If you insult someone for being fat, chances are the only thing they're going to realise is "Wow, what a fucking prick". If you look back further in this thread you will find people saying that insults or any derivative thereof are definitely not what helped them, and what turned out to be the biggest motivating factor in their weight loss was positive encouragement.

@TheHT: You are making the same mistakes again and again, there is only so many times I can reword the same set of points.

• You can understand the risks to something and still do it, but if you feel bad about something then you are less likely to continue doing it. This is where "Fat shaming" is useful where straight facts are not useful.
• You cannot just say something like 'it's a left field and extreme suggestion' without backing that up with some kind of argument.
• Nobody can force anyone to do anything, but obese people have a responsibility to not cost others money if they want to live in a society with other people.
• There is a moral issue with not letting obese people into health programs, you cant exclude any one person from recieving medical care unless it is dangerous for them to recieve it.
• Smoking and obesity are comparable because they both cost others indirectly through medical costs.
• You cant re define a word. Fat shaming means to make people feel shameful for being fat, as they should. Because it affects them and others negatively.
• If you want to improve the human condition, you dont allow people to kill themselves slowly through obesity. Obesity affects them, their families, their friends, and it affects you.
• It is our responsibility to help these people, "Fat Shaming" is just an ethos which can help in framing obesity as a negative trait in our society.
• If something is seen as negative on a very wide scale, it will occur less.

TLDR:

Feeling ashamed about something can be positive. Other people being unkind can be the catalyst for change.

@KaosAngel said:

I visit a pretty underground website called Reddit, I can't link it because some of the stuff are NSFW but on there many people talk about this trend of "fat shaming", apparently more than half the US population is "fat, overweight, obese" now and the "skinny, normal, in-shape" say it's bad and go out of their way to shame them.

It's called being a shitty ass human. Which is why generally, on a whole, I just try to stay way the fuck away from you people. No offence, I'm sure you're all great...kind of. Oh and btw, those people aren't calling fat people fat to help them loose weight, they just do it because they're assholes.

@mandude: I've looked back and seen at least one case of that not being true and others of you being spot on, but yes, positive treatment can yield positive results. Negative treatment can yield positive results too.

Perhaps I simply react differently to criticism than you do. When i recieve a critical remark, I assess it, I don't either embrace it immediately or discard it. If it was useful, or I can find truth in it, I then embrace it.

Someone might be a prick, but if they are correct you can't discard what they have said.

Also nobody I could find in the thread said that being insulted didnt help them, or hindered them. And I'm suggesting that it did help, compared with if nobody was being critical towards them in a negative way.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: You are making the same mistakes again and again, there is only so many times I can reword the same set of points.

• You can understand the risks to something and still do it, but if you feel bad about something then you are less likely to continue doing it. This is where "Fat shaming" is useful where straight facts are not useful.
• You cannot just say something like 'it's a left field and extreme suggestion' without backing that up with some kind of argument.
• Nobody can force anyone to do anything, but obese people have a responsibility to not cost others money if they want to live in a society with other people.
• There is a moral issue with not letting obese people into health programs, you cant exclude any one person from recieving medical care unless it is dangerous for them to recieve it.
• Smoking and obesity are comparable because they both cost others indirectly through medical costs.
• You cant re define a word. Fat shaming means to make people feel shameful for being fat, as they should. Because it affects them and others negatively.
• If you want to improve the human condition, you dont allow people to kill themselves slowly through obesity. Obesity affects them, their families, their friends, and it affects you.
• It is our responsibility to help these people, "Fat Shaming" is just an ethos which can help in framing obesity as a negative trait in our society.
• If something is seen as negative on a very wide scale, it will occur less.

TLDR:

Feeling ashamed about something can be positive. Other people being unkind can be the catalyst for change.

1. mandude responded to your first point well. Also, see far below.
2. If someone came up to me and told me "you should insult fat people before they use up all the health insurance, otherwise you won't get any" I feel completely comfortable telling them "that's a left field and extreme suggestion".
3. Is it just fat people or does everyone share that responsibility? In that case, you taking any risk is as bad as a fat person being fat. You shouldn't ever do anything that could possibly result in a costly consequence that others must pay for.
4. Oh, so there's a moral wall when it comes to say "because of your physical condition, we cannot provide you with insurance" but no moral problem when it comes to demeaning a fat person? Sounds like you've got that reversed.
5. I laid out pretty clearly where the difference lies when comparing obesity to smoking. Smoking directly affects those around and being fat does not. There's really not much you can say to make that statement fail to be true. As such, comparing the two to support your point is a waste of time.
6. Where did I redefine "fat shaming"?
7. Killing themselves slowly? Did obesity kill your mother and rape your sister? You're just being silly now. Taking away autonomy or actively breaking down self-esteem is no necessary evil. You're stretching yourself thin all to justify verbal abuse.
8. You have no responsibility to force yourself into someone elses life.
9. The world isn't as cut and dry as you put it. Many things, terrible things, things that are on an entirely different level of bad from obesity, that are internationally considered illegal, still happen far more than your theory would allow.

@Praab_NZ said:

Also nobody I could find in the thread said that being insulted didnt help them, or hindered them. And I'm suggesting that it did help, compared with if nobody was being critical towards them in a negative way.

You can't just take a response and where there is no mention of what would help/hinder your idea just assume that it's the case. You're going dangerously close to presupposing what you're putting out.

@Praab_NZ said:

@mandude: I've looked back and seen at least one case of that not being true and others of you being spot on, but yes, positive treatment can yield positive results. Negative treatment can yield positive results too.

Perhaps I simply react differently to criticism than you do. When i recieve a critical remark, I assess it, I don't either embrace it immediately or discard it. If it was useful, or I can find truth in it, I then embrace it.

Someone might be a prick, but if they are correct you can't discard what they have said.

Criticism and insults are not interchangeable. I am talking strictly about insults. I think there is very little to be taken from insults. They are generally played for laughs when there is an audience. If it wont get laughs, it wont be said. The primary objective is quite evidently to make fun at the expense of others. Certainly not to help them become better people, and while sometimes an insult might have a point, it's obviously arbitrary to whatever goal the person who said it had in mind, diminishing its credibility as proper criticism.

@Praab_NZ said:

Also nobody I could find in the thread said that being insulted didnt help them, or hindered them. And I'm suggesting that it did help, compared with if nobody was being critical towards them in a negative way.

Someone said:

And anybody who thinks it's okay to publicly humiliate someone or look down on someone for being fat, or anything for that matter, is an asshole. It's not going to help change them, it's going to drive them right back to their addiction. You know what helped me lose weight? Encouragement. People actively rooting for me to lose weight. That's what we should be doing as a society. Not shaming them or looking down on them.

Considering that I, and evidently others, react differently to insults than you, saying that not insulting someone is technically a social flaw is therefore demonstratably false, based on an assumed notion that it helps the person on the receiving end when this is absolutely not proven to be true.

The fact that there's even a name for humiliating fat people in public bums me the fuck out.

Just want to highlight this post:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I absolutely love how some people in this thread think you can just snap your fingers, and instantly not be addicted to something. Like there's no psychological process to go through.

Addiction is a real thing. Being addicted to food is a real thing. It's not easy to just stop. I've been there. It took a long, long time for me to change my habits and lose weight.

And anybody who thinks it's okay to publicly humiliate someone or look down on someone for being fat, or anything for that matter, is an asshole. It's not going to help change them, it's going to drive them right back to their addiction. You know what helped me lose weight? Encouragement. People actively rooting for me to lose weight. That's what we should be doing as a society. Not shaming them or looking down on them.

Spot fucking on, good sir.

The satire in this thread is fucking mind blowingly thick. That said, fat shaming is actually a huge issue in the states. People love to point out the flaws of others, especially flaws that are mostly controllable.

@TheHT: I had faith that we could have a rational argument, but it was misplaced.

Obesity kills people, thats a fact.

You are taking alot of what I'm saying out of context and it's not worth it to re-explain everything.

Mandude did respond with a good point, but he doesn't speak the whole truth.

When i say I am suggesting, It means I am not using pre-cited evidence. So i can speak in non literal terms, following the words "And I'm Suggesting". This is how the english language works.

No you shouldn't take risks at other peoples potential expense, this is how the banking system collapsed.

You are also claiming falsehoods such as 'I have no responsiblity to force myself into someone elses life'. This is what the government does every single day in every single country. It's called a democratic society.

What you mean is I personally have no right to force other people to do something, which is true. I do however have the responsiblity to help others in society, if i was obese i would be hindering others and i would have a responsibilty to not be obese.

I never said fat people actively hurt others like smoking. Im comparing their social cost.

I also never said that it was morally correct to refuse people from insurance because of their physical state.

Number 9 isnt even relevant.

You re-defined fat shaming as not mere critisism, when in fact it is.

@mandude: When did i say that criticisms and insults are interchangeable? If i wasn't clear, what i meant was that insults can contain criticisms or truths and that they can be extracted for the benefit of the person at the recieving end.

As for what our buddy 'someone' said.

That doesnt state that insults didnt help them. Also he stated that It will drive them back to their addiction, yes it might, but it also might not, I dont have evidence to prove one or the other.

If you are talking strictly about insults like "Dude you are fat" or like in the original post something along the lines of "You dont need all those ice creams", yes they are mean, but I think they have their place in reinforcing the greater negative ethos that needs to surround obesity.

Also I think you have missed what "Proven to be true" means, because a post by a guy on a forum is not enough to prove something to be true or false in the context of a greater social issue.

However, I think he makes a great point, which is that positive reinforcement can be much more effective than negative.

This is true, but negative reinforcement is what helps us as humans fear and avoid scenarios such as being overweight in the first place, it can also reduce complacancy among those who are overweight.

I guess I would draw a line with this, which is when overweight people are actively loosing weight, e.g. at the gym. They definitely don't deserve abuse as they are making change.

Does what I'm saying make any sense? I don't know how well I'm communicating this.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: I had faith that we could have a rational argument, but it was misplaced.

Obesity kills people, thats a fact.

You are taking alot of what I'm saying out of context and it's not worth it to re-explain everything.

Mandude did respond with a good point, but he doesn't speak the whole truth.

When i say I am suggesting, It means I am not using pre-cited evidence. So i can speak in non literal terms, following the words "And I'm Suggesting". This is how the english language works.

No you shouldn't take risks at other peoples potential expense, this is how the banking system collapsed.

You are also claiming falsehoods such as 'I have no responsiblity to force myself into someone elses life'. This is what the government does every single day in every single country. It's called a democratic society.

What you mean is I personally have no right to force other people to do something, which is true. I do however have the responsiblity to help others in society, if i was obese i would be hindering others and i would have a responsibilty to not be obese.

I never said fat people actively hurt others like smoking. Im comparing their social cost.

I also never said that it was morally correct to refuse people from insurance because of their physical state.

Number 9 isnt even relevant.

You re-defined fat shaming as not mere critisism, when in fact it is.

1. I'm not disputing that obesity can be dangerous, but your framing of the threat of it in relation to improving the human condition was melodramatic and misses the point.
2. You presented your points in that post in, well, point form. So whatever context there was, it was isolated to the point. If there was a previous context you wanted to me base your ideas around letting me know would have helped prevent any confusion.
3. When you suggest a cause to an effect without any backing, you're not using reasoning. I can take a post and say the reason for such and such a result is xyz. If I don't support that then there's no value to the suggestion.
4. So if everyone has that responsiblity, what makes fat people so special that you need to single them out amongst other insured individuals and insult them?
5. People vote for governments. They (when the system works right) choose a regime to govern their lives. No one voted for you to go around and actively try to shame fat people. You are not an elected government. You are just another person. Inserting yourself in to someone elses life by targeting and harassing them or otherwise forcing them to change is absolutely NOT your responsibility.
6. Yes, that is the meaning of "youhavenoresponsibility to forceyourselfintosomeone else'slife". You have no responsibility to go about "fat shaming" people. Masquerading it as 'help' is disingenuous and manipulative.
7. The social mindset regarding smoking stems from the fact that it directly affects others around the smoker. You cannot ignore that, and it makes smoking significantly different from any social mindset regarding obesity where there is no direct harm to others. The disparity is so great that trying to equate the two is straight up deceptive.
8. I never said you said it was morally correct. Relax, have a drink, and reread that point if you care to get it right.
9. Point 9 is a result to your last point, where you said if something is seen as negative on a wide scale, it will occur less. I assumed the relationship between perception and occurence was significant, otherwise you'd just be saying "if something's bad, some people might not do it" which is hardly worth pointing out.
10. "Fat shaming" is just that: shaming fat people. It's not a mere criticism. It's a targeted attack on another individuals appearance which is substantially more vitriolic and sinister than mere criticism. I'm calling "fat shaming" out for what it actually is. You're trying to sugercoat it to make it sound less heinous.

@TheHT: Look, you aren't making good points because you aren't reading what I'm writing and it's not worth my time to argue over semantics.

@Praab_NZ said:

@mandude: When did i say that criticisms and insults are interchangeable? If i wasn't clear, what i meant was that insults can contain criticisms or truths and that they can be extracted for the benefit of the person at the recieving end.

As for what our buddy 'someone' said.

That doesnt state that insults didnt help them. Also he stated that It will drive them back to their addiction, yes it might, but it also might not, I dont have evidence to prove one or the other.

If you are talking strictly about insults like "Dude you are fat" or like in the original post something along the lines of "You dont need all those ice creams", yes they are mean, but I think they have their place in reinforcing the greater negative ethos that needs to surround obesity.

Also I think you have missed what "Proven to be true" means, because a post by a guy on a forum is not enough to prove something to be true or false in the context of a greater social issue.

However, I think he makes a great point, which is that positive reinforcement can be much more effective than negative.

This is true, but negative reinforcement is what helps us as humans fear and avoid scenarios such as being overweight in the first place, it can also reduce complacancy among those who are overweight.

I guess I would draw a line with this, which is when overweight people are actively loosing weight, e.g. at the gym. They definitely don't deserve abuse as they are making change.

Does what I'm saying make any sense? I don't know how well I'm communicating this.

It explicitly states that insults didn't help them. Read it again.

You're right. You don't have proof one way or the other, which is why it is incorrect to assume that it will help and say that not insulting fat people is a social flaw.

If you'll read my post again, you'll see that I never claimed that that post proved anything. I said that you hadn't proven anything and thereby couldn't back up the claims you had made.

Negative reinforcement can also lead to depression and unhappiness, which can lead to self harm and suicide.

It is all well and good to say there is a line, but it's not tangible, and so these people get the same abuse anyway. If you're for insulting fat people, you're for it. You can't be for it for some people and against it for others, because that's not how it pans out in reality.

@mandude: No it doesnt, read it again.

I didnt assume, I supported it with logical claims. It's called postulation, it's how discussions work.

I did read your post again and you stated in definite terms that it was proven.

I didnt say negative reinforcement couldnt be bad.

And i can draw a line wherever i want, that was my opinion. It also happens to be morally correct.

@Praab_NZ said:

@TheHT: Look, you aren't making good points because you aren't reading what I'm writing and it's not worth my time to argue over semantics.

They're perfectly fine responses. The bottom line is "fat shaming" is an immoral practice. If you think it's ok to belittle and subjugate a person because of their weight under the misguided fear that their fatness will fuck up healthcare systems around the world, then you're a part of the problem that results in the whole "people suck" mentality.

Alas, if you're not up to carrying on with me though, I won't press you.

@Praab_NZ said:

No it doesnt, read it again.

They said:

It's not going to help change them.

@Praab_NZ said:

I didnt assume, I supported it with logical claims. It's called postulation, it's how discussions work.

Merriam-Webster says:

pos.tu.late: to assume or claim as true, existent or necessary

If we are finished arguing words, I will say that your postulation is useless without proof, which you have already said you don't have.

@Praab_NZ said:

I did read your post again and you stated in definite terms that it was proven.

@mandude said:

Considering that I, and evidently others, react differently to insults than you, saying that not insulting someone is technically a social flaw is therefore demonstratably false, based on an assumed notion that it helps the person on the receiving end when this is absolutely not proven to be true.

Clearly note the word not, and how it is referring to what you were claiming.

@Praab_NZ said:

I didnt say negative reinforcement couldnt be bad.

You didn't but your argument does revolve heavily around how it is a major positive force.

@Praab_NZ said:

And i can draw a line wherever i want, that was my opinion. It also happens to be morally correct.

I never said you couldn't. I said it was useless and impractical to do so. If you are saying that it is morally correct as a fact, then you have yet to prove it is. The very fact that I can dispute it means it is not necessarily morally correct, because morals are subjective.

I feel as though I am being forced to do too much backtracking for this to be productive. If you wont at least respond to @TheHT properly, I am not going to continue this, because it shows you aren't willing to make the effort, which is already quite evident.

@mandude: Whoah lets not say crazy things like "Morals are Subjective"

Postulate: 2. To assume or assert the truth, reality, or necessity of, especially as a basis of an argument.

Like we've been over, I don't have evidence, but for the purpose of an argument/discussion I assumed it to be true.

It might be true, it might not be true, that is irrelevant because neither of us have the evidence. Thus we go forth into the world of discussion.

@mandude said:

@Praab_NZ said:

No it doesnt, read it again.

They said:

It's not going to help change them.

Considering that I, and evidently others, react differently to insults than you, saying that not insulting someone is technically a social flaw is therefore demonstratably false, based on an assumed notion that it helps the person on the receiving end when this is absolutely not proven to be true.

Clearly note the word not, and how it is referring to what you were claiming.

Now, you've actually harmed your cause by quoting yourself here unfortunately:

"It's not going to help change them" - Not personal experience, his opinion. Not a fact.

EDIT: Now i get it, you mean that I have not proven it to be true. My apologies. See above

USA has way more dire problems than "fat shaming"

People who berate others under the guise of "helping" are just simply assholes I wouldn't pay any attention to.

Addiction is a lack of self control. Its still a choice. Just because there is a drive that you have no influence over, does not mean it is controlling your physical body. It's always a choice, unless, mind-control-fungus-food takes over your nervous system. Then your just fucked.

@Praab_NZ:

My original point was that you can't back up what you're saying, and the fact that you admit this is my proof. I do not need to prove that insulting fat people is wrong, because I never made that claim. My claim was, and always has been that it's not necessarily right or beneficial.

I am not digging that post up a third time for you, so go back and read the sentence that immediately follows it. He is clearly speaking from personal experience.

Absolutely not proven to be true, does not mean proven to be false.

I'm not sure why you are acting as though I should have known we were strictly in the realm of theory all along. My original post could have been summarised as "Back it up". I don't see why you didn't just elaborate then. Anyhow, I have some sleeping to do.

@Praab_NZ said:

This is true, but negative reinforcement is what helps us as humans fear and avoid scenarios such as being overweight in the first place, it can also reduce complacancy among those who are overweight.

I guess I would draw a line with this, which is when overweight people are actively loosing weight, e.g. at the gym. They definitely don't deserve abuse as they are making change.

Actually, negative reinforcement helps fat humans feel humiliated and unloved, so they return to their homes and fear going out or doing things they enjoy, and get depressed and find comfort and solace in eating, continuuing the cycle. It doesn't make them want to put on a workout outfit and allow more people to see them in more embarrassing situations (like many workout positions) in more revealing clothing. Idiot.

Most fat people eat because they are unhappy, or as a numbing pleasure enducing thing. It cheers them up. If you mock them for being fat, it will depress them, and they'll search for comfort in food. Encouragement is the only thing that works.

I was about 50 pounds overweight. I decided to change and get in shape. I had lost 15 pounds in a month and was feeling great. At a party a GOOD FRIEND, playfully flicked my nipple/chest, the way guys do sometimes, and i felt my chest lift and then drop. He wasn't doing it because of my weight, just messing with me as a person. Just feeling my chest lift and flop made me depressed and I broke my diet the next day. On the other hand, when I work out or eat right now, and people say they've noticed I've lost weight or that I look good, it makes me work HARDER, because the good feeling I get from those compliments makes me want more. That addiction replaces food.

So quit acting like you know what you're talking about, dipshit.

Your thought process is just like a high school bully's. "Me picking on him is helping him. It's teaching him that it's not okay to be the way he is."

@Wrighteous86: Quit acting like you know what you are talking about, you are one person with one experience and don't represent the whole world.

EDIT: I respect your efforts greatly and know it is difficult to overcome weight issues by the way, I dont agree that the only response or even the majority response is to withdraw when someone says something unkind.

@Praab_NZ: If you believe so strongly in your opinion, feel free to look up the human psychology of it. You're wrong. In almost every situation, shaming WORSENS the situation. It makes the person more insular and more stuck in the rut of what they're being shamed into. Or they kill themselves.

Your son is gay? Shame him, that will straighten him out. Your friend is getting bad grades? Keep telling him he's stupid, then he'll study harder. Your brother sucks at basketball? Make fun of him constantly, and he'll be the next Michael Jordan.

How do you not realize that positive reinforcement is so much more effective than negative?

EDIT: Negative reinforcement only works in very specific ways. In this situation, it's much more likely to make the person enter a shame spiral that keeps them from leaving the house than it is to make them lose weight. It teaches them that people are mean, and that food doesn't judge them.

@Wrighteous86: Ok I will look up the human psychology of it. Obviously you have loads of citations and proof waiting in the wings from the studies you have done so I'll give you that.

Also being gay is not a choice.

The simple fact is, that feeling bad about something can be a motivation to change. You want to avoid a scenario, better yourself and they will have no leg to stand on. Be your own motivation.

Also you might note that earlier I did say that positive reinforcement can be better than negative reinforcement.

@Praab_NZ said:

@Wrighteous86: Ok I will look up the human psychology of it. Obviously you have loads of citations and proof waiting in the wings from the studies you have done so I'll give you that.

Also being gay is not a choice.

The simple fact is, that feeling bad about something can be a motivation to change. You want to avoid a scenario, better yourself and they will have no leg to stand on. Be your own motivation.

Also you might note that earlier I did say that positive reinforcement can be better than negative reinforcement.

You say be your own motivation, yet you think providing negative reinforcement will provide them motivation. How about you leave fat people alone and let them deal with it if and when they want. Fat people know that being fat is bad. Most of them want to get thin. Shaming them is not a kindness. It doesn't help them get better.

Also, B.F. Skinner:

As Skinner discussed, positive reinforcement is superior to punishment in altering behavior. He maintained that punishment was not simply the opposite of positive reinforcement; positive reinforcement results in lasting behavioral modification, whereas punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects.

@mandude: I guess I assumed you knew because I never made any factual claims. I was stating my opinion with logical backup.

And I edited my previous post, I did read that last part incorrectly.

@Praab_NZ: Your assuming that these people are going to become motivated and strive for change due to anger/resentment built up toward whoever the negativity is coming from (home,school,etc)

It's flawed thinking that exceptions to the rule (people being so upset it dives them to change) are the norm (people get so upset the situation worsens)

Also, that type of mentality is clearly NOT how those people think, because if it was, they wouldn't of gotten fat in the first place.

And what your talking about is a mentality. If you don't have it, pissing you off, or insulting you, wont help.