Nope. Just like stealing money from a bank isn't wrong either. I mean, I'm gonna spend the money anyway so they end up back in the bank at some point anyway,
If I bought the dvd, but would like a digital version of it and I have no clue how to rip a dvd I can just download it so I can watch it on my laptop when I want and don't need to haul dvd cases with me.
" Movies companies don't steal from you, why should you steal from them? "
I dunno £8 for a cinema ticket, crappy horrible tiny chairs and some asshole talking or munching on food throughout feels like a bit of a rip off. But i suppose that's down to the cinema and not the film makers. Saying that £15 for a DVD is also a rip off.
If your going to buy it anyway it's fine to download it. Fine to make copies of it as well. Just don't start handing them out/selling them to people.
I'm not gonna get into my own position on this issue, but I feel it necessary to point out that whatever your viewpoint, the theft analogies don't work out. If you steal something from someone they don't have it anymore, if you pirate something from someone you make a copy of it.
" I'm not gonna get into my own position on this issue, but I feel it necessary to point out that whatever your viewpoint, the theft analogies don't work out. If you steal something from someone they don't have it anymore, if you pirate something from someone you make a copy of it. "
This.
I don't care if people pirate stuff. I don't do it myself but if people want to see a movie or listen to music, I honestly don't care how they watch it or listen to it.
I would ask though, that if the poll is serious, I have to wonder why the OP feels the need to justify their action. If you're uncomfortable with seeing/listening to something before you paid for it, just don't do it. Or do it. It's not like the FBI is going to break down your door and treat you like a black man on COPS.
" I'm not gonna get into my own position on this issue, but I feel it necessary to point out that whatever your viewpoint, the theft analogies don't work out. If you steal something from someone they don't have it anymore, if you pirate something from someone you make a copy of it. "
Not if you're stealing something like an essay or report. In that case, someone else does all the work (and gets paid little or nothing for it), and you reap all the benefits. Not exactly fair to the worker. It's not like pirating means you're taking money out of a creator's pocket, but it does mean you're making it much harder for them to make a living doing what they love... And don't we ALL want to make a living doing what we love? Shouldn't we be supporting each other in that goal?
As for the topic, I think it can go both ways. If you're saying, "I'm going to download this movie now, but then buy the DVD when it's on the clearance rack at Target for $5," then that's wrong. But I could see an argument for, "I'm going to buy this movie later this week, but my car is in the shop so I can't make my way to the store right now." Something like that.
Also, I agree that creating/downloading personal backups or digital versions is fine, morally speaking if not legally.
It is wrong to download movies, tv shows, etc EVEN IF you are going to buy them. I say this because most means of acquiring such media requires you to upload as you are downloading, thus you are facilitating piracy.
" I'm not gonna get into my own position on this issue, but I feel it necessary to point out that whatever your viewpoint, the theft analogies don't work out. If you steal something from someone they don't have it anymore, if you pirate something from someone you make a copy of it. "
Not if you're stealing something like an essay or report. In that case, someone else does all the work (and gets paid little or nothing for it), and you reap all the benefits. Not exactly fair to the worker. It's not like pirating means you're taking money out of a creator's pocket, but it does mean you're making it much harder for them to make a living doing what they love... And don't we ALL want to make a living doing what we love? Shouldn't we be supporting each other in that goal?"
I understand what you're saying but the post wasn't about the morality of piracy, it's just that whenever these debates start there's always the "you wouldn't steal a handbag" or "the companies don't steal from you" arguments, and whether you believe piracy is morally justified or not it's just not the same thing as someone coming up to you on the street and stealing your stuff.
" I'm not gonna get into my own position on this issue, but I feel it necessary to point out that whatever your viewpoint, the theft analogies don't work out. If you steal something from someone they don't have it anymore, if you pirate something from someone you make a copy of it. "
Not if you're stealing something like an essay or report. In that case, someone else does all the work (and gets paid little or nothing for it), and you reap all the benefits. Not exactly fair to the worker. It's not like pirating means you're taking money out of a creator's pocket, but it does mean you're making it much harder for them to make a living doing what they love... And don't we ALL want to make a living doing what we love? Shouldn't we be supporting each other in that goal?"
I understand what you're saying but the post wasn't about the morality of piracy, it's just that whenever these debates start there's always the "you wouldn't steal a handbag" or "the companies don't steal from you" arguments, and whether you believe piracy is morally justified or not it's just not the same thing as someone coming up to you on the street and stealing your stuff. "
Not to drag this into a hole of arguments people have heard a million times before, but you can't really make that distinction, either. It's like saying, "Whether or not running up and stealing your handbag is morally justified, it's just not the same as coming up to you in the street and shooting you in the face." The "this thing isn't as bad as this other thing" argument is always dangerous at best, so it's best to avoid it.
I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty.
" It is wrong to download movies, tv shows, etc EVEN IF you are going to buy them. I say this because most means of acquiring such media requires you to upload as you are downloading, thus you are facilitating piracy. "
Not true. There are a wealth of video sites dedicated to streaming films and TV shows. In that context, all you are doing is downloading (if that's even how streaming video works, I don't know).
How about this situation. I buy a lot of music on vinyl. While I have the option to hook a record player up to the PC to record the tracks so I can listen to them on my MP3 player, it's infinitely easier to just grab a download from some Eastern European blog. Where on the piracy scale do I land?
" @Sargus: Again, this is not a moral justification of piracy, it's just a distinction between two different things that some people don't make. "
Like you, I'm not saying if I'm for or against it, although some people think of it like this: You are supposed to pay for that data on that disc, and by coming into that data without paying for it, you are stealing it, and pirating is stealing. I think both viewpoints are valid.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense. "
People often don't make sense. It's a moral justification so the user doesn't feel like a bad person with everyone telling them they're terrible people for pirating whatever they pirate. Also your analogy doesn't work. A more accurate statement would be "I wouldn't feel guilty for walking into a bakery and cloning a loaf of bread for my own personal use."
I really wish people would stop acting like computer-based piracy was the same as real piracy and theft. They are completely different animals. PC-centric piracy is a beast our civilization hasn't wrestled with before. Trying to compare it to theft is just silly and makes no sense.
" It's fine, especially if you are going to buy it anyway. You aren't "stealing" anything, that's fucking stupid. It's not even stealing, it's copyright infringement. "
Yup, this sums up my feelings about it pretty well.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense. "
People often don't make sense. It's a moral justification so the user doesn't feel like a bad person with everyone telling them they're terrible people for pirating whatever they pirate. Also your analogy doesn't work. A more accurate statement would be "I wouldn't feel guilty for walking into a bakery and cloning a loaf of bread for my own personal use." I really wish people would stop acting like computer-based piracy was the same as real piracy and theft. They are completely different animals. PC-centric piracy is a beast our civilization hasn't wrestled with before. Trying to compare it to theft is just silly and makes no sense. "
I can see your point and why one could make that argument, but they really do have a lot of similarities.
The only reason people don't makes copies of loaves of bread is because we don't have that technology yet. If we did though, I'd bet that would be as illegal as strait up stealing it. This is getting into some crazy sci-fi territory. :P
" It is wrong to download movies, tv shows, etc EVEN IF you are going to buy them. I say this because most means of acquiring such media requires you to upload as you are downloading, thus you are facilitating piracy. "
Not true. There are a wealth of video sites dedicated to streaming films and TV shows. In that context, all you are doing is downloading (if that's even how streaming video works, I don't know).
That still doesn't negate the fact that torrent sites exist and is where most people go to get a high quality copy. Regardless of where someone downloads media, it is wrong to not pay money for a product that is being sold. Just because it has become extremely easy to download media without payment doesn't make it right. People forgot this somewhere along the way.
Is it illegal? Probably, at least grey-area. Is it morally wrong? Heck no.
edit: unless it's via torrents in which case you're spreading it. But anyway I'd love to see anyone in the western world say with complete honesty that they've never illegally acquired a piece of media. "Everyone does it" doesn't justify it, but I don't think people should point fingers either when their own conscience is probably far from clean.
" If I bought the dvd, but would like a digital version of it and I have no clue how to rip a dvd I can just download it so I can watch it on my laptop when I want and don't need to haul dvd cases with me. "
OP says "GOING to buy it," though. At which point I'd say, yes, it IS wrong. Because I've found that "going to buy it" essentially translates to "You know...when I get around to it" which is generally never. After you've already bought it, though, I say go nuts.
Tested had a good segment on that on this week's podcast. While downloading something if you own it isn't completely immoral, torrenting means you're also serving the file to other people who, more likely than not, don't own it.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense. "
People often don't make sense. It's a moral justification so the user doesn't feel like a bad person with everyone telling them they're terrible people for pirating whatever they pirate. Also your analogy doesn't work. A more accurate statement would be "I wouldn't feel guilty for walking into a bakery and cloning a loaf of bread for my own personal use." I really wish people would stop acting like computer-based piracy was the same as real piracy and theft. They are completely different animals. PC-centric piracy is a beast our civilization hasn't wrestled with before. Trying to compare it to theft is just silly and makes no sense. "
I can see your point and why one could make that argument, but they really do have a lot of similarities. The only reason people don't makes copies of loaves of bread is because we don't have that technology yet. If we did though, I'd bet that would be as illegal as strait up stealing it. This is getting into some crazy sci-fi territory. :P "
I have the technology. I make a loaf of bread every two days, and boy is it freaking yummy. That said, I get your original point, but I find it's better to talk to people interested in/using piracy to obtain things they want in a way that doesn't paint them like criminals. Education I've found works a lot better than finger wagging.
@EndlessObsidian said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @EndlessObsidian said:
" It is wrong to download movies, tv shows, etc EVEN IF you are going to buy them. I say this because most means of acquiring such media requires you to upload as you are downloading, thus you are facilitating piracy. "
Not true. There are a wealth of video sites dedicated to streaming films and TV shows. In that context, all you are doing is downloading (if that's even how streaming video works, I don't know).
That still doesn't negate the fact that torrent sites exist and is where most people go to get a high quality copy. Regardless of where someone downloads media, it is wrong to not pay money for a product that is being sold. Just because it has become extremely easy to download media without payment doesn't make it right. People forgot this somewhere along the way. "
I understand your point, but I honestly disagree with it. We live in a culture based on consuming products, and we have been raised to believe that if we can get a better deal elsewhere, we should take our money and our time elsewhere. Right now the best deal is "FREE" and on the Internet, so that's where a lot of people are taking their money and time. It's not up to the consumers to conform to old standards that dictate how media is consumed, it's up to the product manufacturers to offer a better, more streamlined deal. This is the edict we're instilled with from a very young age, and I think it's kind of funny that it's bit so many in the ass because of it.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense. "
People often don't make sense. It's a moral justification so the user doesn't feel like a bad person with everyone telling them they're terrible people for pirating whatever they pirate. Also your analogy doesn't work. A more accurate statement would be "I wouldn't feel guilty for walking into a bakery and cloning a loaf of bread for my own personal use." I really wish people would stop acting like computer-based piracy was the same as real piracy and theft. They are completely different animals. PC-centric piracy is a beast our civilization hasn't wrestled with before. Trying to compare it to theft is just silly and makes no sense. "
So then you just take issue with the name? The bread analogy doesn't work either because the value of the product is in the production, could you have cloned the bread if it hadn't previously been made? No. I will agree that the digital arena is new and there is a lot to work out in terms of legal loopholes, used content and whatnot but if the company making the content is charging for it then it should be purchased. Really though its those that don't pay for things that cause the prices to go up. Even if there isn't a shred of evidence supporting how much money piracy costs a company, the company feels that it does and will spend extra money trying to prevent it, ensuring that the prices will only go up for legitimate users.
" If I bought the dvd, but would like a digital version of it and I have no clue how to rip a dvd I can just download it so I can watch it on my laptop when I want and don't need to haul dvd cases with me. "
OP says "GOING to buy it," though. At which point I'd say, yes, it IS wrong. Because I've found that "going to buy it" essentially translates to "You know...when I get around to it" which is generally never. After you've already bought it, though, I say go nuts. "
Well if I'm going to buy something but have no time today but still need to travel few hours with the train then I'll pre-rip it!
It's mine, they just don't know it yet! I think that legally that is kinda wrong tho, but meh, I'm no expert. xD
" If I bought the dvd, but would like a digital version of it and I have no clue how to rip a dvd I can just download it so I can watch it on my laptop when I want and don't need to haul dvd cases with me. "
OP says "GOING to buy it," though. At which point I'd say, yes, it IS wrong. Because I've found that "going to buy it" essentially translates to "You know...when I get around to it" which is generally never. After you've already bought it, though, I say go nuts. "
Well if I'm going to buy something but have no time today but still need to travel few hours with the train then I'll pre-rip it! It's mine, they just don't know it yet! I think that legally that is kinda wrong tho, but meh, I'm no expert. xD "
I'd definitely say you'd have difficulty with that argument in court, but again: the moment you buy it, you can pretty much consider yourself exonerated, at least from a moral stand-point.
" I download a lot of movies, but i'd also wager i have a significantly larger legitimate dvd collection than your average person, so I dont feel remotely guilty. "
This would be like me stealing a loaf of bread one day simply because I've bought a shit load of bread previously in my life. Doesn't really make sense. "
People often don't make sense. It's a moral justification so the user doesn't feel like a bad person with everyone telling them they're terrible people for pirating whatever they pirate. Also your analogy doesn't work. A more accurate statement would be "I wouldn't feel guilty for walking into a bakery and cloning a loaf of bread for my own personal use." I really wish people would stop acting like computer-based piracy was the same as real piracy and theft. They are completely different animals. PC-centric piracy is a beast our civilization hasn't wrestled with before. Trying to compare it to theft is just silly and makes no sense. "
So then you just take issue with the name? The bread analogy doesn't work either because the value of the product is in the production, could you have cloned the bread if it hadn't previously been made? No. I will agree that the digital arena is new and there is a lot to work out in terms of legal loopholes, used content and whatnot but if the company making the content is charging for it then it should be purchased. Really though its those that don't pay for things that cause the prices to go up. Even if there isn't a shred of evidence supporting how much money piracy costs a company, the company feels that it does and will spend extra money trying to prevent it, ensuring that the prices will only go up for legitimate users. "
I am currently selling a rock, would you like to buy this rock? It was made from the Earth, but I shaped the rock myself with sandpaper so it looks like a shiny rock. Do you think this has value?
The consumer in you I'm betting is saying "no". I have the right to sell my rocks, but that doesn't mean people have to buy them, especially when rocks are freely distributed and easily available elsewhere. The consumer in you would either go to someone who is giving rocks away or just pick one up yourself. The digital age and streaming media has brought about a clash between consumer culture and populist morality. Morality dictates you should buy the rock I'm selling, because obtaining a shiny rock in any other way is "morally wrong" because I'm the one who is selling it, yet consumerist edict dictates you should get the best value for your dollar.
Also the point about companies driving prices up because of piracy is valid, but that doesn't mean the companies are right for doing that. Why should consumers live in fear of hiked prices? If anything, it shows that the company is unwilling to change their format and direction to evolve with the times. It shows that they are not above wringing every penny they can from a consumer. To that I say, fuck that, I'll shop elsewhere.
Is it illegal? Yes, in most jurisdictions. Not just if you're going to buy it, but also if you already own it most probably. Is it wrong? Who cares what anyone else thinks, decide for yourself. If you are happy that you have acted morally and are willing to accept the legal risks then go for it.
I have quite happily downloaded music I already own on vinyl or cassette so I can put it on to my ipod. That's certainly illegal. However I have never felt a pang of guilt and really couldn't give a shit what anyone else thinks.
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