Question about special-ed kids in classrooms.

I'm not sure how common this is, but my the school district my daughter currently attends has a policy of integrating special-ed kids with the regular classrooms, at least for the early grade schoolers. They have between one and three of these kids per classroom, with one or two extra classroom assistants for these kids, so that the regular teacher isn't spending too much more time handling these kids.

Talking to one of the regular teacher's aides who has been doing her job for I think the last 20 years, she mentioned that she felt like it was unfair to the kids who didn't need to extra time, effort, etc. because no matter how many aides get put in a class, having these kids slows things down for the rest of the class.

I'm curious to know how other schools (particularly outside of the U.S.) handle this, for anyone who knows. Do grade schools there generally separate out the special-ed kids, or is the practice of integration something that the rest of the world has been doing for years?

I'm not sure how common this is, but my the school district my daughter currently attends has a policy of integrating special-ed kids with the regular classrooms, at least for the early grade schoolers. They have between one and three of these kids per classroom, with one or two extra classroom assistants for these kids, so that the regular teacher isn't spending too much more time handling these kids.

Talking to one of the regular teacher's aides who has been doing her job for I think the last 20 years, she mentioned that she felt like it was unfair to the kids who didn't need to extra time, effort, etc. because no matter how many aides get put in a class, having these kids slows things down for the rest of the class.

I'm curious to know how other schools (particularly outside of the U.S.) handle this, for anyone who knows. Do grade schools there generally separate out the special-ed kids, or is the practice of integration something that the rest of the world has been doing for years?

When I was going to grade and middle school, we had an "advance" class that I was in that didn't have any special ed kids. It seems that the policy was that having special ed students in the class wasn't a problem as long as they weren't slowing down the "gifted" children. Once we hit High School they were in their own classrooms though.

I've had a few scattered through my school life and even with aides they always end up slowing down the lesson by misbehaving or whatever. It really pissed me off having these bastards ruin my science lesson or something.
The kids with learning disabilities are fine because they try but can't quite understand things, they need some extra help with their math or reading, their aide and them being very quiet and not disturbing anyone else in the class, but the kids that hold up the whole class while they constantly piss off the children next to them by throwing pens or whatever I have no patience for. What pissed me off was they got shit like candy, stickers or toys if they behaved for a lesson while we got fuck all for behaving every lesson! Fuck 'em!

I was in classes that integrated special needs students in both elementary school and middle school, but my high school had a separate class room set aside for them for all classes minus gym.

Personally I was cool with this, I believe that a schools primary function is as a social education tool more so than academic one. Schools obviously are not set up that way on purpose but that is usually how it works out in my experience, so learning to deal and cooperate with the special needs kids prepared me for the real world outside of school. I learned to treat them as ordinary people not as outsiders who I would alienate by treating as second class citizens.

my school separated them. a couple of times they would be put into class rooms with normal students. an assistant would be put in the class room to help them.
 
you see people sometimes they were put into normal class rooms because they were smart enough for a subject than the special ed class room. an assistant would be there to help them understand it more. it just takes them longer to understand than a person.

I get the idea and reasoning the school would do that, but it's just going to negatively impact the kids who don't need special help and that is not good.

I've never heard of this approach. Where I come from (UK) we have a whole separate school for special-ed children, and they even have their own specially designated 'yellow bus'. But maybe what you mean by special-ed isn't what I'm thinking of..

They're doing this in a lot of places now. My stepmom is a teacher and this was her worst year because now she has all these special needs kids in her class that they're not teaching her how to deal with. Its a goofy program. Its one of those things that sounds novel in theory. You want to give the special needs kids the same education and consolidate rooms because of the budget problem. The reality is everyone's education is suffering.

@CaLe said:

I've never heard of this approach. Where I come from (UK) we have a whole separate school for special-ed children, and they even have their own specially designated 'yellow bus'. But maybe what you mean by special-ed isn't what I'm thinking of..

Maybe not 100% the same thing, but I think we're on the same page. The kids special-ed kids I've been around in her school (I've volunteered for a couple of school events) haven't seemed to be the throwing pens, shouting, causing a ruckus type, more just needing sort of constant attention so they don't either get up and wander away, or just sit and stare off into space.

At least part of the reason I'm curious is that thinking back to my time in grade school, I don't have many memories earlier than around fith or sixth grade. By that point, there were one or two kids, who as iam3green mentioned, would be show up in one class, but not another. Maybe that made them stand out more, I don't know. When I got to HighSchool, there were more definite classrooms set aside. Seeing some of the kids my daughter (currently 2nd grade, btw) has in her class, and how most of her classmates seem to act around these kids, it made me wonder if I hadn't been in a similar situation, and just never noticed, paid attention, cared, etc. until I was older.

I'm in Quebec, Canada. In my high school, there was two different group types for people who had difficulties. I never really knew the difference between the two though. So yeah, they were seperated from the rest.

I think it only makes sense to have them be in their own group. I think people who have a harder time in class, for whatever reason the may be, would feel worst if they also had people who don't need as much help and have better grades around. And it's not like they're in a completely different building, rejected from society, they can still hang around everybody else in between classes.

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@sarahsdad said:

I'm not sure how common this is, but my the school district my daughter currently attends has a policy of integrating special-ed kids with the regular classrooms, at least for the early grade schoolers. They have between one and three of these kids per classroom, with one or two extra classroom assistants for these kids, so that the regular teacher isn't spending too much more time handling these kids.

Talking to one of the regular teacher's aides who has been doing her job for I think the last 20 years, she mentioned that she felt like it was unfair to the kids who didn't need to extra time, effort, etc. because no matter how many aides get put in a class, having these kids slows things down for the rest of the class.

I'm curious to know how other schools (particularly outside of the U.S.) handle this, for anyone who knows. Do grade schools there generally separate out the special-ed kids, or is the practice of integration something that the rest of the world has been doing for years?

The High school I went to had the kids in their own class and did not have them in the classes with other kids. 

me too im in canada btw

In all the schools I've been to there has always been a separate class for the special kids. 
 
This also made me remember when I ran away from one who was trying to talk to me in the second grade. Man, I was a douche.

@Jason_Bourne said:

I'm in high school right now and they do this in Canada, although the kids there seem to do a lot more chore type stuff and a lot less learning, at least once a week they have to clean the cafeteria

They make them clean the cafeteria? Something about that doesn't sound right to me.

@Jason_Bourne said:

I'm in high school right now and they do this in Canada, although the kids there seem to do a lot more chore type stuff and a lot less learning, at least once a week they have to clean the cafeteria

They make them clean the cafeteria? Something about that doesn't sound right to me.

We always had those kids in gradeschool but they were there just as much as they were gone.

@Jason_Bourne said:

@billnyethesciencepie said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@sarahsdad said:

I'm not sure how common this is, but my the school district my daughter currently attends has a policy of integrating special-ed kids with the regular classrooms, at least for the early grade schoolers. They have between one and three of these kids per classroom, with one or two extra classroom assistants for these kids, so that the regular teacher isn't spending too much more time handling these kids.

Talking to one of the regular teacher's aides who has been doing her job for I think the last 20 years, she mentioned that she felt like it was unfair to the kids who didn't need to extra time, effort, etc. because no matter how many aides get put in a class, having these kids slows things down for the rest of the class.

I'm curious to know how other schools (particularly outside of the U.S.) handle this, for anyone who knows. Do grade schools there generally separate out the special-ed kids, or is the practice of integration something that the rest of the world has been doing for years?

The High school I went to had the kids in their own class and did not have them in the classes with other kids.

me too im in canada btw

I'm in high school right now and they do this in Canada, although the kids there seem to do a lot more chore type stuff and a lot less learning, at least once a week they have to clean the cafeteria

Damn, training them to be Janitors or work at Mcydees at school is kinda fucked up.

@Jason_Bourne said:

I'm in high school right now and they do this in Canada, although the kids there seem to do a lot more chore type stuff and a lot less learning, at least once a week they have to clean the cafeteria

They make them clean the cafeteria? Something about that doesn't sound right to me.

I went to a private middle school, but the public elementary and high schools I went to had separate classes (even a separate section of the school) for the special-ed kids. I think only in my fifth grade class there was a special-ed kid with a persona aide and I don't remember him slowing things down all that much. Then again, he has only minor mental disabilities.

Oh boy, something I can talk with an informed perspective about!

I'm a TA for a special ed classroom, for kids ages 3-6 and primarily autistic. The reason behind having special education in "general education", or gen-ed, classes is to create what we here in the state of Texas refer to as a "least restrictive environment." That means that children are given an opportunity to spend as much time with non-disabled peers as they can. Of course, children that are too distracting, dangerous or otherwise disruptive to the classroom environment can be in those least restrictive environments for very shorts period of times, usually for free choice social time or low-impact group work where they can contribute. Here in Texas, for students who have basic living needs that must be met, we have what we call "Life Skills" classes. Those students spend very little time in general education classrooms, both because its disruptive and the benefits they receive from such an environment range from minimal to negative. Finally, at least at my school, students who need additional time or assistance on an assignment are helped by their individual aids (like me!), often in environments outside of the classroom when needed. These levels of assistance are really personalize on a student by student basis, and are modified on a regular schedule of meetings with teachers, both special ed and general ed, parents and school administrators.

Hope that answers/clarifies any questions; I suspect that different states, and for sure different countries, have varying policies on this. But the overarching idea of trying to create that least restrictive environment is pretty universal.

My elementary schools all had them more integrated like you described. There was an extra assistant and all that. And yes, I live in the U.S.

@MrMo said:

I was in classes with that integrated special needs students in elementary school and middle school, but my high school had a separate class room set aside for them for all classes but gym.

Personally I was cool with this, I believe that a schools primary function is a social education more so than academic one. Schools obviously are not set up that way on purpose but that is usually how it works out, so learning to deal and cooperate with the special needs kids prepared me for the real world outside of school. I learned to treat them as ordinary people not as outsiders who I would alienate by treating as second class citizens.

I agree with this sentiment, these are people who are going to have to function in the real world and segregating them feels cruel, is socially isolating, and doesn't help prepare them. Hell, it also helps promote this mentality that there's a sharp divide between these two groups, many of them are relatively functional and shouldn't be segregated from the larger community.

Im currently in my final year of highschool (australia) and my school has a separate block set out for the physically/mentally disabled kids. though most of the special ed kids are in whats called the support unit, depending on the severity of their condition they can be put in with the regular classes. theres this one kid in a few of my classes with cerebral palsy. though mentally there is nothing wrong he needs a walking frame to get around. even though he's disabled he's still a huge prick.....and i think his condition is the only thing stopping him from being punched in the face.

Personally I was cool with this, I believe that a schools primary function is a social education more so than academic one. Schools obviously are not set up that way on purpose but that is usually how it works out, so learning to deal and cooperate with the special needs kids prepared me for the real world outside of school. I learned to treat them as ordinary people not as outsiders who I would alienate by treating as second class citizens.

When I was in high school they tried this. They put a severely autistic kid in the same class as us and it turned out...badly. Wanna know what's distracting? Having a kid whip down his pants and start jacking off in the middle of class while screaming. 

They're in the same class as everyone else, but they get their own assistant and take extra classes if they can't work in the same tempo as the others (It should be noted that schools are pretty autonomous, so it differs from school to school). That's in elementary school, high school (or at least the equivalent of it) over here is a lot different to the one you have in the states. You choose a orientation (program) of sorts, like natural sciences, construction, social sciences, nursing, athletics, etc. You need a set number of "points" to be able to choose each orientation, these "points" are based on your grades from junior high, if you weren't able to accumulate enough points (don't know if this is possible) or if you failed one of the core subjects (Swedish, English and mathematics) you have the option (since high school isn't mandatory) to choose a program with the intent of helping you get into one of the other orientations. Here is where I imagine many of the "troublemakers" end up (not sure what you meant with special-ed), I think kids with (more severe) disabilities can pursue the different orientations in an environment more suited to them (i.e. not with the rest).

All through school I had a mentally disabled girl in my class and it never slowed down the class at any point. Might be different other places, but here in New Brunswick Canada the way they did it was she had her own special assistant teacher all through school, from elementary to graduation, that sat with here in every class but to be honest she never really did anything, the kid not the helper. She just sat in the back class and would copy notes from the board as busy work, and the assistant would actually giver her a copy that she would write out too at the end of the class because she could never keep up. The kid was really disabled mentally though. For the most part she couldn't hold a conversation beyond grunting out a yes or no and she said whaaaaaaaaaaaat  and just gave you a dead eye stare any time you tried to talk to her. Every one loved her though. She was cute in that little kid way that always makes people smile and laugh.
 
Most of the time however she was in her own little room down stairs with the aid, and I'm not sure what they did there. I think it was mostly those colouring books for little kids that had problems you had to solve along the way. I may be wrong though. She would usually show up for Gym class too, but she didn't do much most of the time.

Oh boy, something I can talk with an informed perspective about!

I'm a TA for a special ed classroom, for kids ages 3-6 and primarily autistic. The reason behind having special education in "general education", or gen-ed, classes is to create what we here in the state of Texas refer to as a "least restrictive environment." That means that children are given an opportunity to spend as much time with non-disabled peers as they can. Of course, children that are too distracting, dangerous or otherwise disruptive to the classroom environment can be in those least restrictive environments for very shorts period of times, usually for free choice social time or low-impact group work where they can contribute. Here in Texas, for students who have basic living needs that must be met, we have what we call "Life Skills" classes. Those students spend very little time in general education classrooms, both because its disruptive and the benefits they receive from such an environment range from minimal to negative. Finally, at least at my school, students who need additional time or assistance on an assignment are helped by their individual aids (like me!), often in environments outside of the classroom when needed. These levels of assistance are really personalize on a student by student basis, and are modified on a regular schedule of meetings with teachers, both special ed and general ed, parents and school administrators.

Hope that answers/clarifies any questions; I suspect that different states, and for sure different countries, have varying policies on this. But the overarching idea of trying to create that least restrictive environment is pretty universal.

In my High School (U.S.) they were separated into another class-room, though sometimes they would be in the same class (for example, in my gym class two special-ed kids were with our group)

I remember in Canada where I went to school until the third grade there were special education kids in the class, but they weren't really taught the same lesson as the rest of the class. The student and their aide were just off in a corner doing something else the whole time, although the student would occasionally yell or talk loudly in class. 
From 4-8th grade I don't remember seeing any special ed kids in my classes, although in high school I occasionally saw some of them walking down the halls or in the bathroom.

my school separates them for the most part, the ones who are still pretty much functional will still have the same phy-ed classes, but other than that they are separated. 
 
(this may sound closed-minded, but why would a school do full integration? Its not like them learning with the unimpaired children will suddenly make them higher functioning)

My first grade class had a mentally disabled kid in it. That was disruptive, to say the least. Fortunately it was first grade, so it's not like we had all that much to learn. Future classes I took at a different school, which had separate classes for the mentally handicapped children. From time to time, you'd have one or two students in class with the rest of us. But they'd be accompanied by their own teachers. I think they were just incorporated into the class for the social interaction. It was never really a big deal to anybody.

@VanillaPlant said:

@Jason_Bourne said:

@billnyethesciencepie said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@sarahsdad said:

I'm not sure how common this is, but my the school district my daughter currently attends has a policy of integrating special-ed kids with the regular classrooms, at least for the early grade schoolers. They have between one and three of these kids per classroom, with one or two extra classroom assistants for these kids, so that the regular teacher isn't spending too much more time handling these kids.

Talking to one of the regular teacher's aides who has been doing her job for I think the last 20 years, she mentioned that she felt like it was unfair to the kids who didn't need to extra time, effort, etc. because no matter how many aides get put in a class, having these kids slows things down for the rest of the class.

I'm curious to know how other schools (particularly outside of the U.S.) handle this, for anyone who knows. Do grade schools there generally separate out the special-ed kids, or is the practice of integration something that the rest of the world has been doing for years?

The High school I went to had the kids in their own class and did not have them in the classes with other kids.

me too im in canada btw

I'm in high school right now and they do this in Canada, although the kids there seem to do a lot more chore type stuff and a lot less learning, at least once a week they have to clean the cafeteria

Damn, training them to be Janitors or work at Mcydees at school is kinda fucked up.

Damn that's rough. As for me, they were in our class up to 8th grade (13 years old for non-US school system people) due to the lack of special ed. kids-not enough to warrant a whole new class- but were pulled out for things like math and reading.

My mom is and EA and helps those types of students. Here in Canada at least special needs kids in elementary school are part of the class. Now when I say part of the class I mean in the class. They do not do the same work assigned to the other students. For example if in my Mom's class the regular students get assigned 20 math questions she would go with her student and help him with 8 or make her own questions based on the students level. When it comes to activities like gym and music the special needs student does join in because it helps them become more sociable.

It seems like your school is fucked up because they want these children to keep up with the rest when they should have their own sperate work but still be in the class to feel like they belong.

Back when I was in high-school (I live in Canada), there were special ed kids in a lot of the extra side classes, but never in the more academic subjects. In my drama courses there was always at least one, as well as several in my guitar class. It could get weird sometimes (in my guitar class one of them rather abused the others, biting, pinching, slapping, yelling loads, etc.). Though, these were the elective classes, so it's not like we were trying to learn calculus or something. 
 
They also went around emptying the recycling bins and other stuff, I think.

This thread has 0% compassion.

We drown 'em here.

I remember when I was in 4th grade we had two special ed kids in my P.E. class.
One of them would run around the entire gym flailing his arms and making weird noises, which I sometimes look back on and giggle...
 
 
I'm going to hell aren't I?

@Twitchey said:

I remember when I was in 4th grade we had two special ed kids in my P.E. class. One of them would run around the entire gym flailing his arms and making weird noises, which I sometimes look back on and giggle... I'm going to hell aren't I?

Pretty much ;).

To the tc: Mainstreaming is a common policy, all over the US at least. And we're talking kids who have learning disabilities, and maybe some physical conditions that prevent their abilities to learn. Kids who are disabled have special 'Day Classes', even in Elementary School. For those districts who can afford it now, and traditionally in the past, there are also Emotionally Disturbed classrooms for those kids who can't function in a regular classroom(those kids with the very disruptive behaviors).

At my school there are no classroom aides, but the Special Education students, those who've been tested and have an IEP, go to a pull out classroom and get special one on one or small group help with skills that are significantly below grade level. This is like at most 2 hrs a day. To be clear these kids are not disrupters per se. They may need a little extra daily one on one w/me, and take a little more time to teach, but they don't infringe on the other kids at all in my experience. If anything they bring an opportunity for the whole class to learn about empathy, and acceptance, and the value of helping others.

I teach 5th grade though, and most, if not all these kids, prefer to stay in the mainstream classroom more as the year progesses, and by the end of the year they are pretty much hardly going to RSP. Parents have a big say in this, but our Spec Ed teachers don't discourage those who want to stay in the classroom for mainstream instuction. They almost always end up doing better academically, and socially, and feel pretty good about their progress by year's end. It's just normal for kids to want to be where their peers are, and just fit in, so we try to be very flexible with them.

In a NYC Public school in Queens we had separate classes throughout Middle School and High School for them. I fully agree having them in the class is detremental to the learning process of the other kids. While I suppose they are trying to make them feel more "average" it doesn't particularly do that. I suppose it may help with social interaction with the "normal" kids but in reality I don't think it will. More or less the Special Ed kids in Middle School were isolated and in High School as it became much much larger scale (my graduating class was like 1200) they seem to mesh in better. The kids were however mixed into classes like Gym and Art and what not.

I'm from Canada, and throughout elementary school I had one handicapped child in some of my classes (there were always two classes for each grade, so sometimes I didn't have him in my class). He was great, and the rest of us treated him like gold, so it worked out really well. I guess the experience might have been different if there were several like him in one class, but mostly it seems to come down to the temperament of the child. The bad experiences in this thread seems to depend on how much the child would act out.

@CaLe said:

I've never heard of this approach. Where I come from (UK) we have a whole separate school for special-ed children, and they even have their own specially designated 'yellow bus'. But maybe what you mean by special-ed isn't what I'm thinking of..

This. Though in my high school we had different classes for each group, although they were spilt into top set, second set, third set and special needs (iirc).

One of my classmates had a learning disability. It was a genetic condition - he was also practically deaf in one ear, had trouble speaking and had a very bent spine which meant he was constantly slouching. He wasn't a bad kid, but you could tell that.... well... something wasn't quite right with him. Frankly, it was tragic to see him get picked on during the early years of high school. Thankfully, after one or two years of being bullied, our HighSchool Captain and all round excellent guy befriended him and made sure he wasn't picked on anymore, which was awesome to see.

However, he never did well academically and he had problems socializing with the rest of the class. It was kind of a mess actually - his parents were fairly wealthy and it was a private school and they basically paid his way through High-school despite clearly, clearly not being ready for the next grade. Although his parents demanded no special treatment, he got a ton of special treatment - modified assignments, tests with fewer, easier questions and sometimes they would just pass him despite clearly failing a piece of assessment. The teachers didn't want to help him at all (and didn't), but at the same time they were under orders to ensure he passed, so they basically fixed his grades to make sure he passed, but denied him an education. It was actually pretty heart-breaking to see. Also, although he was nice, he was stubborn and half the time he refused to wear his hearing aid (which meant he could barely hear anything going on), but he also didn't know sign language.

Based on that experience I would say no, don't integrade kids with learning disabilities into mainstream classrooms, because:

1. They will get the shit bullied out of them. In my example, thankfully a better person than I ever could be stepped in and made sure he wasn't bullied anymore (yes my Highschool Captain was just about the nicest, greatest friend I have ever had). But the first two years of highschool was a nightmare for that guy and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. And I went to a posh private school that took an extremely hardline on physical bullying (although not mental bullying). I shudder to think how he would have fared in a public school.
2. Teachers don't want to deal with them. Mainstream teachers are not equipped to deal with special needs children, and so, they mostly don't! They ignore them and sometimes even fake results to appease parents! I've seen this happen with my own two eyes. You might think that placing a special needs kid in a mainstream classroom will ensure they get a proper education, but what happens more often is that they get no education and they just slap a C on any report card to pawn him off to another teacher. Some teachers are good and will try their best to help the special needs kids, but some teachers (as I think we all know) are heartless, lazy, callous bastards who are only in the job for the money and these teachers will downright ignore whatever the special need kids need or say.
3. Depending on the severity of the disability, they can't keep up with the regular coursework: If your child really is a special needs child, consider putting them in a school that recognizes this. Otherwise they will flounder. Too many teachers are too lazy to give an adjusted set of assignments/exams and so they end up giving them the same test as all the rest, and of course, they do disastrously on them because they haven't received any help. And if they do give an adjusted piece of assessment, it's usually insultingly easy and will teach the kid nothing. So either they give the special needs children assessment that's too hard or unbelievably easy (as in "A cow says what?" level of "examination")

I understand the desire to let them adjust to regular society. I would encourage more interactions between special needs kids and regular kids, because at the end of the day, you can't protect them forever and they have to live in the real world. I am not against some classes being mixed, but for the majority of classes (especially the really important ones such as Math, English and Science) I would say keep them separate so that the special needs kids can be educated by trained professionals who know how to teach them properly.

@buft said:

@sarahsdad: in my kids school they have foreign kids in the class that dont speak english, last year there were 3 now there are 5 and its slowing everything down

Not to derail my own topic, but at least from the kids I've met at her school, this seems to be the case as well. Going by what my daughter talks about, it seems like the two kids in as many years that are learning english at the same time have slowed things down more than the special needs kids.

I've never heard of this approach. Where I come from (UK) we have a whole separate school for special-ed children, and they even have their own specially designated 'yellow bus'. But maybe what you mean by special-ed isn't what I'm thinking of..

Wait, you were talking about handicapped kids right?