Learning by comparison - LoL vs DOTA2

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Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

Okay disclaimer time:

If you want deep comparisons, you'll not find them here.

If you want anything but my own personal opinions, you'll not find it here.

If you want to be a dick..that's up to you, but it would be pointless.

Week 2 can be found here - link

That said- on with the show.

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So some background:

Yesterday there was a post about how League of Legends (LoL) wasn't really covered here, and that there was a DOTA2 bias - due to Brad and Co. It spurred me to try LoL as I had the time to spare.Anyway having played LoL I thought it would be interesting to compare it with DOTA2 from a completely new player perspective. I've played a ton of RTS games but never a MOBA. I've got some time on my hands and not very much money so it'll give me something to do in the down time.

I will be updating this over the course of the summer as I learn the in's and outs of both games. I cannot stress enough that this is based upon my personal experience with the two games.

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  • DL'd LoL first - takes up less space and Steam does not like my computer. First thing, the presentation could use some work - menus are kinda bland but the artwork is okay. Naturally very Warcraft-esque given it's roots.
  • Paywalls..well, okay. Looks like they give you stuff for playing..like most FTP games it's probably takes a whole lot of grinding (or money)
  • I like the character designs, lore and the names a pretty cool.
  • Tutorial: Easy to follow - I prefer ranged elves in my RPGs anyway so Ashe? is probably the way i'd go to begin with..ohh ice, even better. Bit dry of a tutorial but got the job done. Also she looks like Noel Vermillion.
  • Graphically bright and not over done - s'alright.
  • Co-op vs AI - this is fun. Don't play Ryze as I have no idea what I'm doing but Ashe locks down the middle lane in the second game. No screaming was done by anyone which was nice.
  • I seem to have made enough IP/RP to get 3 starter characters, and the rotation is weekly. It appears to be a nice progression at the moment but i'm sure the grind will kick in soon. Got's to make that dollar bill 'yo.

Result: LoL is fun..fun enough to make me try DOTA2.

(5 hours downloading and a restart later)

I fucking hate Steam sometimes...well most of the time to be honest.

  • Dota2 has great UI and just general design but boy is there a lot going on here.
  • Picked 'beginner' as my level. Turns out that was a mistake.
  • Character designs: I prefer LoL, at least they have names rather than 'Dragon Knight'..seriously? Does he henshin? I bet he does.
  • He does. Should have called him Ryuki.
  • I really shouldn't have picked 'beginner'. Not designed for people who have played anything like an RTS before. I know how to click a mouse..thank you.
  • Oh this tree heal thing is pretty cool.
  • Courier's for items? That's a great idea.
  • Graphically it's what I would call a smoother version of Warcraft mixed with Pixar. I don't like Pixar. Yes I have no soul.
  • Okay..do you need to speak every time I click where to tell you to go. I know this is based on Warcraft but seriously? I wonder if there's an option to turn this off.
  • Not going well..lets finish off this tutorial and get into a botmatch..
  • So all characters are unlocked? To me that's a good thing and a bad thing. More player choice is always great but...no sense of progression through the master of unlocking? Probably just a personal thing..geeze these guys all look the same.
  • Drow..always bet on the Drow with a bow.
  • Right Botmatch..I'm going mid. I don't know which role I should be playing but archers are usually DPS..I should probably read up about this.
  • Err..shouldn't I have someone in this lane with me? Bots..anyone?
  • Abilities are similar to Ashe which is cool..but she doesn't seem to be an all out DPS character. Wind push thing is odd...is this a major component? Pushing the other team off weaker supports? Ice arrows are great for picking off other Champions or whatever they're called.
  • two towers by myself and the bots finally turn up..this is pretty cool too. Way more to take into consideration that LoL - I mean, wards? WTF. Accessibility is helped by the guides but..more work needs to be done here on my part.
  • Oh I got some drops. A cape and shoulders for someone I don't play...great.
  • money money money money money....I wonder how much Brad has spent.

I know there was a lot more negativity towards DOTA2, but that's purely because I played it second..it's not an overall commentary on the game itself. As HS said to me - DOTA2 is better but it takes longer to appreciate than LoL.

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Showtime da!

Thanks for all the comments earlier. Honestly I will limit this to one a day so not to appear spammy.

For Day 2 I thought I'd switch around stuff and take DOTA2 first. I made notes during my dead times - so lots of notes. DOTA I play by myself with bots.

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  • Tried Windranger - she seems fun and mostly an assist kill character. Item selections seems very important.
  • Big thing to note. Tower projectiles. Having played LoL first I was used to the green circle showing its range and whether you aggro it. Perhaps it's the noob in me, but the random aggro I got sometimes, even with pulls infront of me and the INSANE tracking distance annoyed the hell out of me..but you die, you learn.
  • Tried Luna next - that is not a Scots accent.
  • Stayed in the middle lane, upgraded her glaive and pew pew...ult and got 3 kills. Thats fun. Again I see the WoW Dark Elf thing here..but gods that accent.
  • Tried bounty hunter after listening to Brad talk about him on Idle Thumbs DOTA podcast..nope. Not for me.
  • Fire Ember? Nope
  • Juggernaut..hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha everything died.

In summary - learning characters against the AI before deciding who to main at the beginning seems like a good idea. Time to read up on lanes and who needs to be where. Thank the gods for all that time playing CC or Kite in MMOs. Good stuff with DOTA2 today.

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Co-Op with players against AI.

  • Start with Katriana? Looks like an assassin to me..decide to play that way. Lie in wait in the grass and gank champions as they go by.
  • chat = top top bottom bottom bottom...errrrr, wait a sec.
  • Starts off well, we at the bottom do a good job UNTIL random guy who doesn't play the first 5 mins starts telling everyone what to do and going off at some guys build. Ignore and move on.
  • Probably not the way to play Katriana, die a lot but eh...continued moaning.
  • Next game with Ashe - call bottom again. Looks to be fine.
  • Some guy decides he wants to go mid with another guy...guy already there starts calling him noob and asks him to be reported. Roll eyes.
  • Goes well..apart from NOOB NOOB NOOB every so often. I love ice arrows.
  • Final game - Lux. ooooooooooooooooooooooooh baby yes.
  • Go bottom again with a very competent Jinx, we clean up the bottom lane damn fast..CC is fun with someone sniping.
  • Accidently kill Golem instead of Jinx..Jinx pissed and rightly so as I get ganked by the whole other team rolling by..oops.
  • PEW PEW PEW PEW.........PEEEEEWWWWWW
  • Apart from me not really understanding the jungling thing (sorry Jinx person) that went well.

TLDR- lots of home work to do.

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aka 'Carry on my wayward bot'

Again thanks for all the helpful comments - today was a doozy.

Before starting I should mention that I currently play to the sounds of Motown...fyi.

Today I was joined by our own TobbRobb to guide (read troll) our way through Co-Op.

Team LoL started off today:

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  • Having loved (and I mean LOVED) playing as Lux yesterday and as today was rotation day in LoL I just played her while I could in the two matches we played. TobbRobb(TR) went Yusuno then err Sin Lee?
  • First Co-Op match and TR just wanted to watch me rather than tell me what I should be doing..probably rolled his eyes a fair bit.
  • Lane Arguments FTW
  • Random person 'Can I go top?' Me 'Sorry, Nope' 'Them 'Awww'
  • Procing..this was something I didn't notice yesterday. Lux's E ball thing places a proc when it explodes. Autoattacking sets it off doing extra damage..cool.
  • Yusuno kills things..fast.
  • PENTAKILL!!!
  • Random mid lane dude 'Stop taking my kills' TR 'But I'm bored...'
  • Lux is skillshot based, so aiming is key...her ult straight down a line of heroes is super satisfying.
  • Easy win..just messing around.
  • 2nd Match
  • comboing - TR kicks a hero into my CC for the kill...yesssss
  • Mayhem ensues, we wipe the floor with everyone just in our top lane.
  • 12 min match before kill? I know it's just AI but we were laughing our heads off.
  • Things to take away - boots/speed are hyper important, as is positioning when playing a support role.

TLDR - Trolling AI is amusing.

After a lunch break, cat break, gym break and hoovering break we returned for:

DOTA2 Team:

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  • I'll own up to a little DOTA2 time last night, random selected Warlock. In my notebook I have written the following:

Cool looking guy

Chains are sweet

OMFG O_O

  • Upon telling TR this he said that he had actually being nerfed recently and you can get 4 golems.

4

Golems.

  • Which brings me to my next side point before we get started. Macroing. I can imagine that macroing multiple characters in DOTA can get complex..and I wonder if LoL has a comparison?
  • We talked about the compendium and how it's not necessary but it can help you watch the league competition and you get free stuff. I said that the buying of the compendium would be the signal that DOTA had won me over. Not there yet.
  • TR went on to describe DOTA as being more complex but not necessarily deeper - there's just more going on. LoL is more straight forward but fun for it. I'd agree with that statement at the moment.
  • Looking at my picks (going into a botmatch with just the two of us) I went with Rubrik.
  • Fun stuff..especially nicking other peoples spells.
  • Again learning to play support..TR picked Tiny, threw everyone all over the place.
  • Flying goblins ftw
  • Denying - this was interesting. You take out your own creeps so that the other team can't gain the exp/gold. Not easy to do given I don't A-Click much and if you're not careful you'll end up helping the other team.
  • Holy shit the bots are steam rolling without us.
  • Gaaah 5 man gank squad are chasing me..ruuuuun.
  • Wow those bots be crazy.
  • I hate Luna..I really really hate Luna.
  • Match 2: Crystal Maiden and ? I didn't note it..Zeus?
  • I HATE LUNA - 'Bottom missing - bottom missing'
  • She's totally trolling me.
  • Support role, let the carry get all the last kills. Don't get any money can't buy items. Sucks but it's a team game for a reason.
  • positioning!
  • These bots are so OP - goddamnit Luna.
  • I like CC and allowing Carry to take stuff out effectively..Crystal Maiden seems pretty..erm..cool.
  • Okay, I think we've done every line from Mr Freeze now in the chat.
  • Win
  • Match 3 - AI up to medium, Death Prophet and Zeus
  • 'Not a good lane synergy, oh well' - famous last words of TR
  • Hmm CC is kinda cool.
  • God damn Luna is in this AGAIN? 100+ characters and they be trolling me.
  • These bots are tough.
  • Waiting behind the lines, picking stuff for mana regen when I can afford it, and yes boots.
  • 'TR, Where are you?' 'THEY'RE CHASING ME..AHHHHHHHH'
  • GHOST SPAM FT...oh crap how come there are 4 chaos knights? Khorne doesn't do magic, wtf!
  • 'Err..I've got to go' = me being steamrolled by AI.
  • Ghost spa..oh screw it.
  • loss

So what did I learn, dear readers?

Speed, positioning, denying and knowing your role are SUPER important. No different from an MMO in that respect but just in micro here.

I like CC and direct damage Int users at the moment. Will be trying Agility and Strength tomorrow I think.

Warlock is OP

Bots are OP

Warlockbots are seriously OP.

Great thanks to TR for putting up with my craziness and the swedish heat. I think we genuinely had a good time just messing about..cause you know, this is a game, played for fun. Easy to forget that with all the hullabaloo surrounding it.

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aka 'Work on your micro GEEZ' - Dudeglove

I know I said Strength and Agility for today but..today was a day of research. Of watching streams, reading and generally resting my poor aching hand. I don't have the greatest set-up in the world with a crappy dell inspiron laptop, wrist-rest mousemat and tecknet mouse on my painting table but you live with what you have.

See what I mean?
See what I mean?

Anyway here's today's write up:

  • Watching some of the Noob stream last night (Liquid vs CIS) was a great help in explaining the importance of magic stick, Rochan, force staff and wards.
  • Never knew about melee and ranged creeps.
  • You can deny towers? oh shit son..
  • Denying really is the coolest thing ever.
  • Score isn't that important - it's exp and gold difference. farm farm farm.
  • As mentioned in comments tried recording so DOTA and LoL. Dota was juttery (expected due to writing to disk thats being used and cpu stuff) and LoL just decided not to record..oh well.

Now I'm gonna detour a bit as most of this is theorycraft - or learning what to theorycraft and just random thoughts I've had:

First up is the new ebook from Shoryuken regarding fighting games. It's been in my feed for a couple of days (I'm a KOF/Arc fan) and I thought I'd have a read of the first couple of chapters. A couple things stood out to me as being relevant to my current situation and common in many online games:

  • Proof reading in books is important, in blog posts..not so much.
  • The psychology of thinking one step ahead of your opponent - knowing what he will do and how to effectively counter it while also having an escape route. I know it's important in every competitive game from chess to American Football but it's not something you tend to consider without thinking about it.
  • Frametraps, footsies...momentum. It's all in DOTA and LoL.
  • I'm not a good fighting game player - I tend to play by instinct and get killed by Tager a lot.
  • Fighting games aren't team sports and they have a limited roster. Mind boggling variations available.
  • Combos. Engage, stunlock, FADC/Slow, Ult - kill. Same concept but now with Co-Op.
  • Execution of combos and timing, placement -all the same ideas.
  • Learning your side: Radiant/Dire have different lane advantages vs Seth Killian only being able to throw a Dragon Punch 40% time on the left hand side and still being a threat (according to the ebook).
  • Would pay to have Iori/Geese/Terry in DOTA/LoL (they are making a KOF moba..hmm)
  • GEESE *shakes fist*

It was only a quick read through but there's a lot for me to think about there and how I can apply it to my understanding of the genre.

My second bit of research is more to do with the mechanics and design of the games. I listened to Brad Muir on DOTA Today and he mentioned an article where one of the designers of LoL set out some of their design choices vs old DOTA. Remember this is from 2010 and from their perspective so don't..freak out or anything. I'm really interested in why certain mechanics are the way they are and why the devs choose to do things differently so:

  • The Dev 'Zileas' talks about 'Game Design Anti-Patterns' or just..convoluted design choices I guess which can either enhance gameplay or effect it negatively. He separates them out into categories of which I'll take some as well, giving my opinions:
  • 'Power without Gameplay' - he talks about how passive auras don't have the same player satisfaction as direct action abilities like 'click to blow shit up' thus they've tried to mix active and passive buffs together so they're more useful/appreciated. As a guy who plays RPGs that's just...urgh. A buff is a buff. If you're team suddenly gets lifesteal or whatever because you picked a buff in your tree thats MASSIVE. It could change the whole flow of the game. Crystal Maiden is a favourite of mine due to the mana regen buff..oh and freezing people.
  • 'Burden of Knowledge': using Bloodseeker's rupture as an example he talks about how high the threshold is for new players to get into these games. If you didn't know not to move with rupture on you, you'd never understand why you keep dying. This is a major difference between LoL and DOTA2 I feel - and why many new players prefer LoL as a gateway drug. It's more straightforward and easier to understand how things fit together. Once you get it though..you get it.
  • 'Unclear optimisation': How to use your abilities and what items synergise with them is a probably both games suffer with for new players and something I haven't even begun to learn beyond 'boots, bloody boots'. (Sepultura ftw) The player guides in DOTA are great..it would be nice if more of them included the reasoning behind the choices in their mouse-over boxes.
  • 'Fun fails to exceed anti-fun': Getting repeatedly smashed by the other, more experienced team is never fun. Mana burn for the burned is never fun..especially as it stops most characters from being able to interact with what's on the screen effectively. Balancing these problems is something both games need to do more with. LoL's 'oh shit' B button helps in some cases, as does a TP scroll but..if all you do is lose, you'll either get better or not come back. You've got to have the desire to get better and a game that fosters that will always be more popular.

There's more stuff in that post than I actually understand at the moment (or I may not understand any of it) so please do have a look. From a design perspective it's interesting.

Some quick final notes for today:

  • Denying is awesome - LoL does not have denying. Thats..sucks.
  • When I described denying to someone his reply was 'UGH THAT'S ALREADY TOO MUCH TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT' Cap locks was obviously necessary.
  • Going back into League was kind of tough after so much DOTA yesterday and the towers hit like a goddamn brickhouse...but no Luna.
  • Riven in League is fun to play. Not used to having characters that only use cooldowns rather than mana. Do they balance the damage output accordingly?
  • I'm now coming around on the whole 'choice' thing between League and DOTA. Seeing other characters who are interesting to play as and being stuck to a couple is kinda sucky.
  • Did not play as Lux..probably coloured my experience.
  • They needed to sort out the commentary on those DOTA streams..couldn't hear half of what they said at the beginning with the picks and the banning stuff..so meta.

Apologies again for no real gameplay notes on Str/Agl. It's taken me a while to type this out to be fair. Tomorrow I'll get into strength (time willing) and have some more thoughts about the game design.

Oh and my Steam ID is Jazz and my LoL ID is JazzGB or Ahriman Efreet (long story).

Thanks for getting this far with me.

To be continued:

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aka: 'This could turn Hare Krishna into a bad boy'

Me..earlier
Me..earlier

Quick bits to get out the way:

  • My pc was running like crap last night, so I tried switching over to my 2007 MBP. After downloading everything it turns out you need 10.7. Grrr.
  • Thought it might be interesting to look at the original DOTA sometime..looked for my WC3 and FT dvds..couldn't find them, went on battle.net £10 each? Are you fucking kidding me? - two resellers later got the set for the price of one. Goddamn it Blizzard.
  • I did find my original Diablo/Starcraft and Warcraft CDs for my Power Mac...which is nice
  • This article from PC Gamer is a great look at early DOTA2 play by someone who can actually write 'Dota 2 has an absurd learning curve, but it’s the personal side that attracts me to it and that reminds me of improv. It’s not a one-to-one match: the aftermath of a bad improv show looks like a soul-searching pint in an Edinburgh beer garden, while a catastrophic Dota 2 game ends in a collective withdrawal from the process. Silence over Skype, muttered deadpan truths about feeding and failure. But there’s a common process of analysis and consolation that produces a technical solution by starting with each player’s implicit flaws and tendencies. The crusty mechanical layer fractures and reveals human working parts. Sometimes, the human working parts swear at you in Russian and abandon the match.'
  • But it's not as good as this related 3 part article by Quentin (Quinns) Smith.

    'Tonight, after three bot games played with some of my Cool Runnings-like noob superteam, something clicked. I took my headphones off. I closed our Skype channel and gazed at the metropolis of dirty mugs beside the keyboard.

    I get it now.

    Here's your reason to play Dota 2, a reason Dota 2 players don't articulate because they're too busy playing Dota 2 and, frankly, the last thing you want on your team is more noobs.

    Dota 2 is fencing.

    That's the skill, and the appeal. I finally see it. You're fighting back and forth down these lanes, looking for an opening in the other heroes' defense. The other guy's too close to your tower, or too far from his friend, his ultimate skill's on cooldown, his health is low. Fights in other games last seconds. Fights in Dota 2 are dramatic; entire minutes of feints and narrow escapes. Duels that can span forests, roads and rivers without coming to an end.'

  • I need to learn more about what each specific role in the game is - ie carry, support, jungler, initiator? and nukes. I can guess what their basic requirements are but..when exactly do you go jungling? Is there a exact time during the game - say when you hit level 3 you pull back from the front line and go into the trenches as it were?

Aaaaanyway. Today was all DOTA2 all day. No League due to the above messing around taking up my morning.

Team DOTA2:

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  • As promised it was mostly Strength characters today.
  • Fiyenyaa was kind enough to lend me some tips as to how Wraith Knight should work for a newb like me. I...didn't really feel it. I don't like playing physical 'smash their face in' type heroes..even if they do have a stun. Also the bots just left me high and dry.
  • Tidehunter - yeah, I can get behind this guy. I see why he needs the blink dagger to really be aggressive and his ult is awesome for combos..he just mows people down.
  • Bigb..i mean Lycan- YES..yes yes yes yes. Junglist massif, wolves..mass hysteria, cats and dogs living together, soloing Rashon, people dying left right and centre, sorted out my macros..god that was fun.
  • Sven - like Wraight Knight, just not my cup of tea.
  • Pudge - I can see the utility of the hook, but killing yourself with the cloud thing? Really have to be careful with that. Not bad, but...tricky. Oh and health bars covered each other so I died due to a creep blocking it..not cool.
  • Abaddon - nope...no despoiling was done today.
  • Kunkka - Yeah, cool. Passive is great but need to keep an eye on the cooldown..ghost ship is a laugh and the teleport would be good from ganking.
  • Beastmaster - nope.
  • Treant - Yup. Awesome. Healing and just taking everything they send at you. It took 4 of them to gank me, and only because I had no mana. Awesome.

I then had a look at the agility heroes for 2 matches:

  • Ember Spirit - I like his design and I can see there's something there I just...have an issue with it. I dunno.
  • Viper - I was sick and tired of seeing him (only had to deal with Luna twice thank god) so I thought i'd try him myself. Forget Warlock..holy crap this guy is terrible/awesome. Terrisome. Must be the simplest character I've played so far - once you have decent regen it's game over for the other team. 17 kills or something silly. Yeah it's bots but it feels good.

Final Thoughts:

  • Re: Jungling
  • Bots are beginning to piss me off, purely due to them stealing kills due to them picking dumbass heroes to go with my pick. Or it could be that I just suck.
  • I've pretty much come around on DOTA2 now...I'm going to need to put more time into LoL as I tend to start up DOTA2 instead and I'm still just playing botgames.

If anyone knows of any good articles/posts regarding the development or ideas behind either games I would appreciate you passing them on if possible. Might also be worth suggesting other mobas just to have a quick compare. I have Demigod somewhere and that Transformers one is browser based (even if they use those godawful movie designs..Drift is crying..somewhere on the Lost Light).

Once again thank you for all your comments.

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aka: 'Fuck you Morgana'- Some whiney git.

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Before I begin some quick notes:

  • Tried Transformers Universe - thats not a moba, nor is it any good. Ran like crap on my laptop but it is only in open beta. Made by the guys who brought you Runescape and...erm..
  • Surprised that there isn't a Warhammer 40k Moba. The setting is made for it and it's not like GW isn't being a complete licence whore at the moment. Also Pacific Rim.
  • Finally uninstalled Guild Wars 2..I don't know what that means, but it means something.
  • Bottles and Runes..bottles and runes.

Okay so, as promised it was all LoL all day:

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  • I managed to play as Lux just before the switch over to the new champions..I'll admit I cried a little when she was no longer available. Will be grinding Lux - that sounds so dirty.
  • On the wonderful suggestions of you guys I picked up Morgana. Kayle..and I got Twisted Fate cause he looked cool.
  • Started with Morgana and I have to say I really like her. Puddle is great to farm with and the stun saved me more times than you can imagine.
  • Taric is the Luna of LoL. He never goes away, he never dies..gods I hate him.
  • I was trying to play support but Master Yi player decided to just do his own thing and ignore the stunned AI heroes. (still playing vs AI) Annoying.
  • Spell Vamp is great. Health of AOE even if it is nerfed is great.
  • Mana issues - look at your build.
  • Eventually won, zero co-ordination but eh, what do you expect.
  • Kayle next - Don't like her move animation.
  • Stun sucks. Die in seconds.
  • Hmm this flame sword thing procs on swing..need to up attack speed.
  • Why does everyone have xx_xx or 666 in their names? Sakura666? xxsoraiskingxx? is this the fucking twilight zone?
  • Eh, she's okay..too squishy to be a melee person from my experience.
  • Back to Morgana. Riven comes lane with me.
  • Loads of bitching from some guy about bot feeding
  • Stuns work well
  • more bitching - called out on it 'huurr look at my score compared to yours' - 'hurrr it's a team game dipshit and I'm playing support - if I had more kills than you I'd be doing it wrong..also it's an AI game..seriously?'
  • Eventually get through that...urgh.
  • Morgana again. Crocodile dude comes with on top.
  • Croc decides not to move past the 3rd tower, miles away from the xp.
  • 'Fuck you Morgana' - reply 'Fuck you for being a pussy - get out here and earn that xp. Difficult to support someone who runs away' This game is making me evil.
  • Forumite tbk turned up to lay down some tips and play some games with me.
  • Tried Twisted Fate, had a hell of a fun time (we wiped the floor with the AI it 19 mins) but as tbk pointed out I had no idea how to play him. Card mechanic is awesome though. Teleported with his ult just before I got ganked by 3 of the AI..s'cool.
  • Back to Morgana. Had a really fun time just messing around and farming as support. Later informed that I should have just gone mid due to the puddle to farm it up. Flash, Hourglass and Rod of Ages are the way to go..but before 15mins (have to be honest..didn't really follow any of that but it's good to know)

So thanks to tbk for coming and riding the newbie train with me.

Final thoughts:

  • LoL is still pretty cool. I prefer being able to deny, but I made an effort to harass the AI so they wouldn't be within the XP area, thus we would out level them. I think it worked well.
  • So much more to learn - I'm not sure I like the invisibility in the grass but it helps de-aggro.
  • Whining about killstealing seems pointless unless you're the carry - and nobody knows if they're the carry in a beginners botmatch.
  • urgh those names and ugh Taric.

Thanks for keeping with me and the comments. I'll probably do another blog for week two otherwise this will probably crash the system or something.

TBC

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aka 'Well that's clear as mud then.' - me

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Well, gosh. It's a week today since I began this journey. I'd like to thank all of you who have commented or spent some time attempting to knock some sense into my brain, it's very much appreciated. Without you guys I don't think I would have ended up this far.

So the quick notes:

  • RIP Tommy Ramone. I grew up on the Clash, Ramones and it's sad to lose another.
  • Ancient Thai saying : 'Tiger balm is great for aching hands, not great for eyes.'
  • I've spent over 24 hours between the two of these games this week. I need a job.
  • You know what's a great palette cleanser for MOBAs? Brutal Doom.

I spent this morning with a couple of games of LoL - to be honest I spent most of this morning wanting to jump right back in with Morgana and Twisted Fate. Nearly pulled a Brad of 7am start..but my cat put an end to that by waking me up at 4am. Evil evil cat.

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  • I had no idea there were skill trees in this game. Runes, Skill trees...this is madness. How do you get points in the skill trees? I dumped most of Morgana's into mana regen and movement speed..seemed like the right thing to do?
  • Played mid as suggested yesterday by tbk - farmed and rolled them right up. I didn't pick up the hourglass as I don't have flash yet due to levelling needed (again..wtf) Anyway lots of fun.
  • I broke for lunch and had a look at some Fiora builds. Oh dear...bad idea.
  • I played..no wait..I TRIED to play a jungling Fiora build. I had no idea what I was doing which lead to the guy playing vivi (FFIX)-esque character to keep saying 'go adc' I asked him to elaborate to which he replied 'go adc' - Attack Damage Carry? well considering he was supposed to be playing mid but moaning about how I wasn't helping him against Ryze..he actually surrendered. A bot match...as if it matters. However I accept that was probably my fault and he wasn't mean about it...it was just, frustrating...on both sides I would think.
  • That rather soured me on Fiora and jungling at length. Stick to what I understand before screwing up other people's enjoyment.
No Caption Provided
  • After a wee bit I went into DOTA2 with the idea of picking up where I left off with the Agility heroes.
  • Funny to note, it's been a week but I still haven't played against people yet...don't think it would be fair to the rest of the team. Nor have I played all the heroes.
  • Started with Medusa. I liked some of her stuff - her mana snake thing is cool but too tanky for my liking. Slow I guess.
  • Naga Siren: A beautiful model and great fun to play..if I knew what I was doing. I can imagine her scream would set up well with Tide.
  • Mirana: Meh...giant meh.
  • Lone Druid: Items on the bear? What madness is this? He's cool..I seem to like playing characters that have extra..erm...characters? Which brings us to:
  • Phantom Lancer - I enjoyed myself so much with this guy I played him 3 times in a row. Once you have all your abilities up and attack speed up..good luck stopping this guy. By the end my illusions were killing the bots by themselves. Oh and then there's the vanish....
  • Necrophos - kinda cool I guess. His aura slows/stops regen which is nice and he has heals..pretty tanky but slow. The hook stun is great.
  • Razor - Boring but effective. Press Q to farm with not much movement needed.

Final Thoughts:

  • It's been both a really long and yet really short week. If I didn't have my pull list coming in I wouldn't have spent money on anything but food...so I guess I'm saving money?
  • I last turned on my PS4 a week ago to play Wolfenstein. I..don't really like that game much. My ps2, ps3 and original xbox still get a load of play. Playing through the Drakengard and Kingdom Under Fire series.
  • I don't remember when I last turned on my WiiU. My gamepad is all dusty.
  • LoL has way more going on outside of the game itself than I knew. Masteries, runes..it's like World of Warcraft and must give a massive boost to those with a higher level - matchmaking must be tough.
  • I used bottles a lot more today - allowing you to stay in lane longer is always a good thing.
  • How do you level items? Diffusal blade (apparently a must have for PL) could be levelled..no idea how.
  • I'll be taking tomorrow off - thoughts on staying on this blogpost or making a new 'Week 2' post would be appreciated. Not sure which people would prefer.
  • Tonight is Rifftrax night.

TBC

Avatar image for adequatelyprepared
#1 Posted by AdequatelyPrepared (2522 posts) -

The biggest grind in LoL, I feel, are the runes. Runes won't really matter until you hit lvl 30 (because until then, you don't have all the slots unlocked) that provide slight bonuses in a game (which can be quite substantial if you choose to just have every rune in a rune page be the same, you can get 20% critical chance at the start of a game like this) and until you get all the runes you want, expect most of your IP (earned currency, not paid for) to be going towards them. Other than that, LoL's pay-wall is almost non-existent compared to other F2P games (barring DotA 2, of course, but that's Valve, so it's a different story). Because of the weekly rotation, you get an opportunity to try out many champions, and if you find one you like, it's not a massive expense of IP to unlock them for good. The only thing, to my knowledge, that both DotA 2 and LoL will ONLY accept real money for are cosmetic items. Hell, LoL allows for name changes to be bought via IP, and not many F2P games allow for name changes without some real money exchanging hands.

I feel as though Jeff would understand the difference between the two games more if you compared them to fighting games. Sure, to a casual observer, both Mortal Kombat and SF are just two characters on a screen punching each other, but anyone who is a bit more into those games could tell you that the differences are massive.

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#2 Posted by Bollard (8165 posts) -

Having played both, I think DOTA2 is the better game. Having all characters available is nice, it clearly has a higher skill cieling, and it has much better UI. The champion build guides are built right in the damn game, it shows you all the items to buy and what skills to upgrade at each level are highlighted for you. It's ace.

That said, I play more LoL. Why? LoL is actually just more fun. It's weird, I know DOTA is better, yet I'd rather play LoL.

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#3 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@bollard: Exactly how I found it after one day..perhaps day 2 will show me new things. Thanks for the comment.

@adequatelyprepared: That's a valid comparison. Especially considering the depth idea. Thanks for the info on the pay wall.

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#4 Posted by Christoffer (2374 posts) -

I tried to get into LoL a long time ago. I played a few games and I watched some good players play it but it didn't really stick with me. It wasn't until I stumbled upon Dota, funny enough, that I finally got the appeal of Mobas. I tought of going back to try LoL again, but, one extremely time consuming Moba is enough, right?

For me, I think it was just a matter of various internet personalities, that I follow, started to play Dota instead of LoL. TotalBiscuit, Brad, Idle Thumbs etc. And then I watched some tournaments and got hooked on some of the commentators and experts. Draskyl, Purge, Bruno, Merlini etc. Thinking about it, I guess I fell in love with everything surrounding Dota at first. And then, when I understood all the basic menusha, the game just became extremely fun to get good at (or try to).

So, to your point, I don't think LoL had any chance with me since it doesn't get covered as much. At least not in my parts of the internet.

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#5 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

Well this is followed. As long as you keep an open mind this will at the very least be amusing, and potentially interesting.

Though I have to say, you might not know what you've gotten yourself into. Learning one of these alone is hard enough, both at the same time can be crazy. I'm comfortable with my skill in both games, but I learned one at a time, and it can still be jarring to go from one to the other if the break has been long enough.

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#6 Edited by Corevi (6796 posts) -

Was not expecting a Ryuki reference.

Dota 2 talk: Mid is a solo lane so you should probably go bot or top if you are starting out. I recommend reading up a little bit on every hero you are interested in either the in-game encyclopedia or the unofficial wiki. Check out Steam Guides for premade builds, be careful though as a large amount of them are outdated.

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#7 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@corruptedevil: I should have led with 'It's Showtime'..I'm sure counting up sins will come up later. Thanks for the advice about lanes.

@tobbrobb: I'll do my best. Open mind is kind of the whole point of me going in blind. I may have bitten off more than i can chew..but I'll learn that soon enough probably. We shall see.

@christoffer: Thanks for the input. It does seem to be more of a spectator -> player thing..specially with the internet personalities being so big on DOTA (and Steam being so ubiquitous)

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#8 Posted by Freshbandito (705 posts) -

@bollard: I'd probably agree with that for the most part. I love everything Dota is doing around the edges and for the experience, I just wish that actual experience in game was League of Legends as League just feels more 'fun' to me in the same way that sure I could play magic or hecatomb or 7000 card top deck murdertapper but I'd just not be having the same kind of boiled down fun as in Hearthstone.

Disclaimer; This statement is complete opinion and your mileage on the measurement 'fun' may vary product to product.

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#9 Posted by Midjet (162 posts) -

About the character speaking every time you click to move, go into the options and on the right side of video/audio it should say 'Unit Speed' switching that to events will take down a lot of the noise.

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#10 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -
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#11 Posted by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

Side thought: Do people really care about "lore"? The lore for MOBA games makes about as much as sense as the lore for Team Fortress 2 (the rich narrative of building two bases across each other and trying to get in). I always thought it was an amusing side thing where at best it adds flavor to in game chatter but it has never ever effected the game.

ps. Dota 2 "The International" start tomorrow with the "Wild Card" play offs!

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#12 Posted by ChrisHarris (287 posts) -

@jazz said:

Character designs: I prefer LoL, at least they have names rather than 'Dragon Knight'..seriously? Does he henshin? I bet he does. He does. Should have called him Ryuki.

Characters are generally called by something resembling what people used to refer to them in Dota 1, unless it was too close to something Blizzard owns. One of the exceptions is that Valve insist on using "Io" in the UI when everyone calls it "Wisp" already. Just about every hero has a real name and an alias/title: Davion the Dragon Knight, Io the Guardian Wisp, Lyralei the Windranger, etc.

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#13 Posted by Rothbart (469 posts) -
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#14 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@chrisharris: So imagination wasn't a big thing back then?..I kid..kinda. I see what you're saying, it just seems lazy to me, but if it's a call back then I guess that's okay. Bit late anyway to complain on that side.

@extomar: Eh, I think it adds to the whole package. I like my fighting games the same way.

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#15 Edited by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

Players still called heroes by their classic names (Nature's Prophet = Furion, Terrorblade = Ilidan, etc). And what is wrong with "Dragon Knight"? He is a knight that transforms into a dragon. :)

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#16 Posted by CheapPoison (1127 posts) -

@chrisharris: Pretty much. If you want the name you can use the name but i think there is actually something possitive to just a very generic name that describes that the character is about. It is just like the title the heroes get in lol besides their name, their title is just prioritized here.

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#17 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@extomar: It's a personal thing I guess. I find it lazy but others like that sort of thing....as I said. Nitpicking. Not really a serious problem. Chris explained that there are proper names..so...works both ways I guess?

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#18 Posted by GaspoweR (4899 posts) -

I'm actually liking that you are taking a bullet notes format for this blog since it's pretty easy to follow and because of that I think the thoughts that are going on in your head at that moment is easily conveyed. Very interesting approach duder!

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#19 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@gaspower: Thanks, I thought it would be too cluttered otherwise. Literally word for word the notes I write as I play..especially the pew pew pew part.

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#20 Posted by Christoffer (2374 posts) -

I have a question for those who have played a fair bit of both LoL and Dota. I often hear that there's much more straightforward heroes in LoL, for the most part. Always wondered what that mean. Does that mean no equivalents to Puck, Storm, Furion, Enigma, Tinker or whatever the hell a skilled Earth Spirit is doing to my health bar?

To get things straight, I have nothing against straightforward heroes. I love playing Viper or Drow if I ever carry and of course it doesn't make LoL a worse game. I don't really have the time or energy to practice a decent Puck "Get in and. Zap the supports. Silence and coil everyone. Disappear and blink away" -combo.

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#21 Posted by BradBrains (2265 posts) -

Really interested to see how a newer player is treated by the online community at this point. It's always kept me away as someone who won't be great and may not have full days to spend on it

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#22 Posted by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

I have a question for those who have played a fair bit of both LoL and Dota. I often hear that there's much more straightforward heroes in LoL, for the most part. Always wondered what that mean. Does that mean no equivalents to Puck, Storm, Furion, Enigma, Tinker or whatever the hell a skilled Earth Spirit is doing to my health bar?

To get things straight, I have nothing against straightforward heroes. I love playing Viper or Drow if I ever carry and of course it doesn't make LoL a worse game. I don't really have the time or energy to practice a decent Puck "Get in and. Zap the supports. Silence and coil everyone. Disappear and blink away" -combo.

To that end, are there "whombo-combos" on LoL? The synergies in some team combinations can be "explosive" where at the pro-level you need to counter draft to avoid it.

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#23 Edited by Fiyenyaa (87 posts) -
@jazz said:
Dota2 has great UI and just general design but boy is there a lot going on here.
  • Picked 'beginner' as my level. Turns out that was a mistake.
  • Character designs: I prefer LoL, at least they have names rather than 'Dragon Knight'..seriously? Does he henshin? I bet he does.
  • He does. Should have called him Ryuki.
  • I really shouldn't have picked 'beginner'. Not designed for people who have played anything like an RTS before. I know how to click a mouse..thank you.
  • Oh this tree heal thing is pretty cool.
  • Courier's for items? That's a great idea.
  • Graphically it's what I would call a smoother version of Warcraft mixed with Pixar. I don't like Pixar. Yes I have no soul.
  • Okay..do you need to speak every time I click where to tell you to go. I know this is based on Warcraft but seriously? I wonder if there's an option to turn this off.
  • Not going well..lets finish off this tutorial and get into a botmatch..
  • So all characters are unlocked? To me that's a good thing and a bad thing. More player choice is always great but...no sense of progression through the master of unlocking? Probably just a personal thing..geeze these guys all look the same.
  • Drow..always bet on the Drow with a bow.
  • Right Botmatch..I'm going mid. I don't know which role I should be playing but archers are usually DPS..I should probably read up about this.
  • Err..shouldn't I have someone in this lane with me? Bots..anyone?
  • Abilities are similar to Ashe which is cool..but she doesn't seem to be an all out DPS character. Wind push thing is odd...is this a major component? Pushing the other team off weaker supports? Ice arrows are great for picking off other Champions or whatever they're called.
  • two towers by myself and the bots finally turn up..this is pretty cool too. Way more to take into consideration that LoL - I mean, wards? WTF. Accessibility is helped by the guides but..more work needs to be done here on my part.
  • Oh I got some drops. A cape and shoulders for someone I don't play...great.
  • money money money money money....I wonder how much Brad has spent.

I know there was a lot more negativity towards DOTA2, but that's purely because I played it second..it's not an overall commentary on the game itself. As HS said to me - DOTA2 is better but it takes longer to appreciate than LoL.

Edit: Day 2: 7/7/14

Showtime da!

Thanks for all the comments earlier. Honestly I will limit this to one a day so not to appear spammy.

For Day 2 I thought I'd switch around stuff and take DOTA2 first. I made notes during my dead times - so lots of notes. DOTA I play by myself with bots.

  • Tried Windranger - she seems fun and mostly an assist kill character. Item selections seems very important.
  • Big thing to note. Tower projectiles. Having played LoL first I was used to the green circle showing its range and whether you aggro it. Perhaps it's the noob in me, but the random aggro I got sometimes, even with pulls infront of me and the INSANE tracking distance annoyed the hell out of me..but you die, you learn.
  • Tried Luna next - that is not a Scots accent.
  • Stayed in the middle lane, upgraded her glaive and pew pew...ult and got 3 kills. Thats fun. Again I see the WoW Dark Elf thing here..but gods that accent.
  • Tried bounty hunter after listening to Brad talk about him on Idle Thumbs DOTA podcast..nope. Not for me.
  • Fire Ember? Nope
  • Juggernaut..hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha everything died.

In summary - learning characters against the AI before deciding who to main at the beginning seems like a good idea. Time to read up on lanes and who needs to be where. Thank the gods for all that time playing CC or Kite in MMOs. Good stuff with DOTA2 today.

OK, I found this very interesting. I've been playing Dota 2 for about 2 years, got over 1,500 games played and I've probably spent about £50 on cosmetics/items/stupid wizard hats (although that includes money made from selling steam inventory stuff, so actual money spent may be less).

Few pointers;

- Yes you can switch off unit speech; you can have them speak all the time, speak only when "events happen" (such as kills, certain hero pairs on lanes, etc), or never.

- They are called Heroes in Dota, no Champions - although who actually cares?

- Middle lane is usually just one player except with some very rare strategies. The classic lane lineup is 2 on safe lane (which is top for Dire and bottom for Radiant), 1 on middle, 2 on offlane (bottom for Dire and top for Radiant). In the lanes with 2 heroes on, usually one will take the last hits (i.e. earning the gold) and the other will try to facilitate this. Sometimes you have other lane variations; you can have 2 on the safe lane, 1 on mid, 1 on offlane, and one in the jungle (some heroes can use the jungle npcs to kill and get gold and experience, although most heroes are not viable for this at level 1).

- Drow is pretty much an all-out DPS character. Her damage dramatically ramps up when you get to level 6 and get her ultimate ability, which adds a load of agility (her primary stat, so she gets damage from it) as long as enemy heroes aren't next to her. Also, damage with most heroes is contingent to a large degree on the items you get; buying items that increase agility or just simply damage with add to this. Her whirlwind ability does slightly move the heroes away from it, but the real use of it *most* of the time is the silence; when a hero is silenced it cannot use any of it's active spells.

- Wards are vital. Wards win matches. If you are a support, buy wards for your team all the time. If your team isn't buying wards, but them for your team. Knowing where the enemy team is allows you to win.

- Tower aggro works roughly as follows. If nothing is attacking the tower, it'll attack the first thing in range. If something is attacking the tower, it'll attack the closest thing attacking it. If a tower is attacking you and you're not the closest thing to it, you can get the aggro off you by either moving out of range (the long/inefficient way to do it), or by attacking a friendly creep which is also attacking the tower (use the attack-move button, which I cannot remember the default key for for the life of me).

- Luna's accent is I *think* supposed to be Irish. It is an affront to the ears.

Hope you keep trying these games and GLHF!

Oh also; I hate hate hate lore names. Use the name that the game says it is when you pick it. Worse are the names that people use because of dota 1. "Furion" isn't in Dota 2. He's a warcraft character. AH! (I am a total hypocrite because I still call Io "Wisp").

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#24 Posted by Galiant (2237 posts) -

Thanks for an interesting read.

I could never get into the first Dota, learning the labyrinth of items and combining them was more effort than I was willing to put in at the time.

I started playing LoL a few years back, buying/combining items was easier and I was older and more patient/willing to learn. I played a lot, but eventually I got sick of it. Not sure what it was.

Along came Dota 2, and I got hooked again. It felt more polished, balanced (no "runes" tied to your account level like in LoL, everyone starts from scratch every game). It felt a little overwhelming at first - denies, losing gold upon death and so on - but I got used to it and actually preferred it.

1000 hours of Dota 2 later, I play it almost daily. I can't imagine going back to LoL at this point.

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#25 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@darkstalker: Well, DOTA2 is bots at the moment, and so far I've had half and half good Co-Op AI games in LoL. Of all of the modes, in beginner, you'd think people would be more accepting generally of people trying to learn..but sometimes that isn't the case. People take internet/games seriously for some bizarre reason.

@galiant: Glad you enjoyed it..it's worrying but the rabbit hole seems to be drawing me in.

@fiyenyaa: Thanks for the tips, especially the lane stuff. Very helpful to get the rough concept of how that's supposed to playout.

Now what's the general etiquette for pinging? Cause some people go all ping crazy...I'm still not sure how to ping in LoL (DOTA it's alt-click I think?)

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#26 Posted by Freshbandito (705 posts) -

@extomar said:

@christoffer said:

I have a question for those who have played a fair bit of both LoL and Dota. I often hear that there's much more straightforward heroes in LoL, for the most part. Always wondered what that mean. Does that mean no equivalents to Puck, Storm, Furion, Enigma, Tinker or whatever the hell a skilled Earth Spirit is doing to my health bar?

To get things straight, I have nothing against straightforward heroes. I love playing Viper or Drow if I ever carry and of course it doesn't make LoL a worse game. I don't really have the time or energy to practice a decent Puck "Get in and. Zap the supports. Silence and coil everyone. Disappear and blink away" -combo.

To that end, are there "whombo-combos" on LoL? The synergies in some team combinations can be "explosive" where at the pro-level you need to counter draft to avoid it.

Yes there are certainly wombo combos that result from say an amumu (his ult is a large radius circle from himself that snares all enemies in place) with ziggs (ult hurls out a large bomb that has a travel time detonating at end point over a large area doing 'tons of damage') and miss fortune (ult roots her in place as she channels a cone of damage across enemies) all ulting a grouped enemy team can be game ending.

Wombo Combos in League can be played around (split pushing, mechanically out playing etc.) picked against (poke/disengage comps) or itemised against (banshee's veil ((think bkb but only works on one spell and then recharges)) mikhael's crucible ((think mek but also removes stuns / snares)) )

I'd say Dota probably has the more varied comp matchups as league gets very deep into a set meta to the point that if you gave me an upcoming fixture on the League eSports scene I could predict the picks with an about 80% accuracy.

you get more thought out and 'interactive' champions in league than all the point and click ashe's (drow ranger) but the top end of weird and wonderful in dota champs is yet to be approached by league characters who tend to be very binary and have a set effect on ability use and Riot want players to know what will happen clearly.

Best example of a more interesting league champion I can offer is Thresh, he's a support champion with a dedication to engage / displacement and peel. His passive has enemy champions and minions drop souls upon death that he can absorb to become stronger and tougher. His first ability winds up a hook/chain that will latch on to the first enemy it comes across (pudge like) and root them for a second, upon re-activation of the ability Thresh will launch himself at the hooked target.His second ability lets him throw out a lantern that collects souls, applies a shield to allied champions and friendly champions can click on the lantern to travel directly to thresh very quickly. Third ability Flay has Thresh whirl his chain and create a displacing effect that moves enemies depending on the direction of the flay and their positioning, caught on one side of the dragging motion you will be pulled towards thresh and on the other you will be pushed back, both apply a heavy slow and the Thresh player can manipulate which way the motion will be cast. His ultimate places down a five sided box around himself that has 5 seperate walls that enemy champions will break upon passing through taking damage and a very hefty slow.

Thresh is thought of as one of the more interesting characters in League as his kit lets him do everything a support would want in most situations and has remained a high priority pick in professional play since his release. Other very interesting champions you may want to look at are Yasuo and Zac who have their own unique mechanics based around manipulation of wind and collecting your own destabilizing matter to regenerate health.

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#27 Edited by Fiyenyaa (87 posts) -
@jazz said:

@darkstalker: Well, DOTA2 is bots at the moment, and so far I've had half and half good Co-Op AI games in LoL. Of all of the modes, in beginner, you'd think people would be more accepting generally of people trying to learn..but sometimes that isn't the case. People take internet/games seriously for some bizarre reason.

@galiant: Glad you enjoyed it..it's worrying but the rabbit hole seems to be drawing me in.

@fiyenyaa: Thanks for the tips, especially the lane stuff. Very helpful to get the rough concept of how that's supposed to playout.

Now what's the general etiquette for pinging? Cause some people go all ping crazy...I'm still not sure how to ping in LoL (DOTA it's alt-click I think?)

The community for both these games are awful. If you can, try to team up with some people who you can play with who are *around* your skill level. Failing that, you could play with someone who is willing to teach you, but people who can do that well are few and far between. I help teach people first aid stuff in real life and consider myself a pretty calm person, but teaching people Dota? I turn into a mean-spirited grumpy bastard. Something about it stresses me out, not sure why. Maybe that's what happens to everyone who plays this game, and that's why the community is so bad?

As for pinging, I'd say keep it to a minimum, because if you're pinging all the time people will ignore it. There are actually 2 pings in Dota 2; the normal alt-click one, and the ctrl-alt-click one which is the "warning ping" (it's higher-pitched, and has a cross in the middle). People in public matches apparently use the normal ping for "attack this guy/move here" and the warning ping for "move away from here" (this isn't a hard and fast rule, not only because not everyone behaves the same way but also because I've never played a game of dota without at least 2 other friends on my team, and 95% of them have been full 5-people teams so I'm not too familiar with pub-etiquette).

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#28 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

@christoffer: Since no one is answering your question... Go check out the skillsets/video of characters like Zed, Jayce, Yasuo, Elise, Riven... League does not have characters with much of a strategic niche like Nature's Prophet, goalwise and overarchingly they are all pretty straight. But with the examples I gave and a fair bit of others a lot of emphasis is put on making the straightforward goal fun and mechanically interesting to pull off. It's just hit dude--> Kill dude, but the characters are designed to make that more involved and entertaining than a drow.

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#29 Edited by President_Barackbar (3641 posts) -
@jazz said:

Now what's the general etiquette for pinging? Cause some people go all ping crazy...I'm still not sure how to ping in LoL (DOTA it's alt-click I think?)

Pressing "G" and clicking is the default for a general ping in LoL, and "V" and clicking is the default for "retreat ping" which is usually used to tell teammates to get back (in the chat it says "be careful"). Pressing "G" and clicking on a structure like a tower or inhibitor will give a "defend/need help here" ping. If you hit "G" and then hold left click, you will get a radial menu that has both of the above in addition to "Missing", "Caution" (used to warn people of impending danger like a champ going off map in someone's direction), and "On my way." You pick which one you want by moving the mouse in the direction of the ping you want and then releasing left click when your cursor is in the correct quadrant. In general, one ping is enough, but two quick pings can be used to underscore urgency. If you are doing it more than that, you'll likely annoy people. In Dota pinging isn't really done a ton due to the ability to voice chat, but I'd say the same rules apply about ping frequency.

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#30 Edited by azrailx (604 posts) -

well if your looking for someone to play with in league add:

monkey777love or azrail

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#31 Posted by slyspider (1827 posts) -

I cannot stand DOTA. Personally the way CC works and the move speed feels like I'm stuck in mud and the whole game feels less fun. Sure the game has more mechanics but most mechanics=/= better game to me. I've spent 50 hours or so in DOTA, a extremely small amount to be sure, while I'm an upper level League player with an ungodly amount of time spent. Feel free to add me on league: Slyspider. I can answer any questions you have and will play with you if I'm not busy

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#32 Edited by Slag (8157 posts) -

It's interesting to read these perspectives, It's amazing to me many how differently people approach these games vs the way I do. I would never ever just dive in like that in a team game, I always practice privately before playing a multiplayer game, so doing some research beforehand and figuring out mechanics always seemed natural to me.

DOTA 2 never seemed impenetrable to me, certainly not compared to DotA.

Maybe it's my background in Sports or maybe it's because I grew up on games that didn't explain themselves, or maybe it's just me . I dunno. I guess Riot was smarter than I realize to design LoL the way they did, since it seems many gamers don't do what I do.

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#33 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@slag: Well, you'll see above that I take the same view..playing with bots in DOTA2. LoL doesn't allow you to do that afaik so it was Co-Op vs AI. Quickest way to figure out mechanics is to play the game otherwise it has no context. So yeah I agree.

@slyspider: @azrailx: I might just do that. I'm in the UK so time difference may be a bitch.

@president_barackbar: Thanks for the explanation

Quick question. Can you download your replays or do you need a capture device/card for that sort of thing?

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#34 Posted by Fiyenyaa (87 posts) -

@jazz said:

Quick question. Can you download your replays or do you need a capture device/card for that sort of thing?

For dota, if you click on your picture on the main screen, go to "games played", you can click on of them and download the replay, no extra software needed.

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#35 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

@jazz: Dota has a built in download feature if you look in your profile>match history. It's excellent.

For league you have to download a little thing called Lolreplay. It's not retroactive, it crashes a lot and you only see healthbars/stuff from where your camera was at any given time. But hey, at least its something right?

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#36 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@tobbrobb: @fiyenyaa: Fantastic...might put some up on my YT if I ever feel brave enough. Thanks for the tip.

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#37 Posted by Crysack (567 posts) -

@slag said:

It's interesting to read these perspectives, It's amazing to me many how differently people approach these games vs the way I do. I would never ever just dive in like that in a team game, I always practice privately before playing a multiplayer game, so doing some research beforehand and figuring out mechanics always seemed natural to me.

DOTA 2 never seemed impenetrable to me, certainly not compared to DotA.

Maybe it's my background in Sports or maybe it's because I grew up on games that didn't explain themselves, or maybe it's just me . I dunno. I guess Riot was smarter than I realize to design LoL the way they did, since it seems many gamers don't do what I do.

The perspective given in the OP is a good indication that the way to get the most out of DotA is most certainly to read up about it first. There are quite simply too many things, including the absolute basics, that you won't ever know unless someone tells you.

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#38 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@crysack: I think it's been mentioned on Podcasts, like DOTA Today, that much of the design in DOTA and LoL flies in the face of modern game design and as such people will not automatically 'know' to read up on this stuff because games aren't generally made that way anymore. People don't even read instruction manuals..most games don't have them. I think LoL is attempting to try and fix this again with their new bot system but I don't know how successful it will be.

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#39 Posted by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

@slag said:

It's interesting to read these perspectives, It's amazing to me many how differently people approach these games vs the way I do. I would never ever just dive in like that in a team game, I always practice privately before playing a multiplayer game, so doing some research beforehand and figuring out mechanics always seemed natural to me.

DOTA 2 never seemed impenetrable to me, certainly not compared to DotA.

Maybe it's my background in Sports or maybe it's because I grew up on games that didn't explain themselves, or maybe it's just me . I dunno. I guess Riot was smarter than I realize to design LoL the way they did, since it seems many gamers don't do what I do.

The issue with Dota 2 is there are a lot of quirky things that are never readily explained. For instance how to effectively use Eul's or Ghost Scepter. When should one get a Mek vs Pipe of Insight. When you want to build Treads vs Phase. Hell there is even quirky things like knowing you can use Eul's a mini-BKB that is important to know but never explained even though all of the parts are detailed in the item's text.

Basically it is great recommend builds and items are in the user guides but that isn't an explanation.

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#40 Posted by HS21 (2731 posts) -

HS said it, HS stands by it.

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#41 Edited by Y2Ken (2944 posts) -

Will definitely keep an eye on this, interested to hear your thoughts. I've played and watched quite a fair amount of both, I started with League and then later learnt Dota. I certainly spend far more time with the latter at this point, I enjoy watching and playing it more, but I still have plenty of affinity for LoL. It's interesting because when I first switched to Dota the bigger map and long animations made the game feel much slower, but as I became adjusted to it going back to League always makes me feel far slower thanks to the much fewer mobility options (TP Scrolls, Blink Dagger, Force Staff, Boots of Travel, Shadow Blade, and so on).

I'd say League is certainly easier to grasp as a new player, for a number of reasons. Champions in LoL tend to have much more clearly defined roles than Dota Heroes (Tank, Carry, Support, etc.) and there are far fewer items with active abilities (which obviously complicates matters). In addition, attack animations are much faster and there's no "denies", so last-hitting (a crucial skill in both games) is much easier to learn. The jungle and lanes are also cleaner and simpler in League, and there's only one shop so you don't have to worry about knowing where to go for the items you want.

That said, it isn't necessarily a better game for the new player, because of the way its F2P model is structured. You'll only have access to the 10 free heroes for that week unless you start dropping money or spend your (slowly-earned) in game points on purchasing more, and while your profile is levelling up to 30 you'll be at an active disadvantage if you play against higher level players thanks to the Runes and Masteries system (which both give you small benefits to your stats, they don't make a huge difference but it's always been a big sticking point for me that I think brings League down a bit).

In comparison, having all heroes unlocked from the start in Dota means you can try out as many people as you like. And try not to think of "maining" one or two characters - that's certainly a good way to start, but if you decide to progress with these games you'll likely find yourself playing as many of them (people sticking to a few characters is more common in League as they may only have purchased a small few, rather than having access to them all). Worth noting that I've spent just over £100 on League (mainly on heroes during sales) compared to around £50 on Dota 2 (which includes 2 Compendiums and a bunch of cosmetic gear at roughly £0.04 - £1 a piece, generally towards the lower end). And I have about twice as much time played in Dota. And I felt more as though I 'had' to spend that money to enjoy the game in League, whereas I started buying Dota cosmetics fairly recently after feeling fairly happy giving some money to Valve for the amount of time I'd spent in-game.

If you have any particular questions about specific differences I can probably answer them; my League knowledge is slightly lessened as I haven't been paying close attention to it lately with The International coming up, but I still try to keep an eye on what is going on in that game.

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#42 Edited by Y2Ken (2944 posts) -

As a side note, I absolutely recommend playing bot matches with someone who is patient and understands the game, if you can find them. It's a much better way to learn, as you can ask questions and they'll be able to give you advice as to what you might want to be doing at any given point in time. Failing that, watching games is a good way to go (that's how I initially learnt the workings of League when I first started out, alongside talking to a few people).

I'd highly recommend anyone with an interest in Dota checking out The International as they're going to be running a stream focused on explaining the game to new players (I believe it's this one).

@jazz To play with bots in LoL you can create a private lobby and then manually fill it with bots. It's actually quite useful as you can manually construct a team composition somewhat akin to the normal game (they may have changed it as I heard they are updating the bots but last time I tried they would fill in to make a 2 top - 1 mid - 2 bottom formation depending on where you started the game). Also I had generally poor experiences with Co-op vs. AI when starting out as it seemed to be people looking to exploit AI and stomp through for ridiculous kill numbers or fast wins which isn't helpful if you're trying to learn the core mechanics and game flow.

Oh and a follow-up to @fiyenyaa - I believe the default Attack-Move key (in both games, in fact) is A (then left-click). Do that on one of your friendly dudes in Dota and you'll lose tower aggro. Dota towers are generally a lot less dangerous at early levels than their League equivalents, but you don't want them shooting you nonetheless if you can avoid it.

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#43 Edited by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

The classic differentiation between Dota 2 and LoL seems to be that in Dota 2, players protect towers since they represent a reserve of "reliable gold" while I'm not sure what purpose they serve LoL beyond raw protection and interference.

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#44 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

@extomar: Towers protect the jungle as well. It limits the entry points for the enemy team to try and take your camps/ganks through your jungle. A loss of a tower is a loss of map control. But that goes for both games.

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#45 Posted by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@y2ken: Actually, I prefer the LoL way of doing (as does TR I believe). Too much choice can be a big problem at the beginning, and having some sort of progression (through unlocking actual characters rather than cosmetic items) is something I like. We'll see if I think differently now that Lux is gone. I will only buy characters with ingame currency so it'll take a while. Also thanks for the tip about botmatches in LoL. I will be watching the beginner streams when I can.

@hs21: Verily did Hitman47 speak from the heavens regarding thermal paste, and it was so..and everyone was pleased.

@extomar: god yes, TR and I discussed that at length while using force staff on each other (hmm that sounds dodgy). It's a real issue knowing when to buy what and people take it a bit too seriously if you don't get it right.

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#46 Edited by Jazz (2365 posts) -

@tobbrobb: Who cares about the towers though? I mean really?

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#47 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

@jazz: I think the progression in league is better for a new player or ones who need an extra hook to play a game. If I had to start a new moba right now, I would prefer the dota model.

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#48 Edited by EXTomar (5047 posts) -

I guess? It is my experience no one fears towers in Dota 2 beyond the starting phase and they are easy to "fool". Hell it maybe an issue that depending on the situation, a player doesn't even fear the enemy fountain which is the most powerful "tower" in on the map.

In fact "back door protection" and "invulnerability" are artificial and are the primary rules forcing teams to clear towers in an order where some teams would skip the outer towers if they were not required. Reliable gold is nice but why bother if the team can just push to high ground and cripple opponents or end the game early?

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#49 Posted by TobbRobb (6582 posts) -

@extomar: Hmm you do have a point that no one fears dota towers in the same way. The map control argument probably is more applicable to league where the tower are damn strong. "getting buffed too".

But yeah, even if towers weren't invincible, why would you skip the outer turrets? If you ignore them they are just gonna either make you take unneccessary damage/detour around the map to try and get to the "real" objective. Outer towers are weak anyways, just kill them. Unless you mean sidelanes, but some teams largely skip those already and just focus on pushing mid.

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#50 Edited by Freshbandito (705 posts) -

@extomar said:

The classic differentiation between Dota 2 and LoL seems to be that in Dota 2, players protect towers since they represent a reserve of "reliable gold" while I'm not sure what purpose they serve LoL beyond raw protection and interference.

Defending towers is still incredibly important in League as they provide a healthy cash bonus to the whole team when destroyed and further bonus to those nearby when the tower falls and they are one of the core 'objectives' that dictate movement aroundthe map in team 'rotations' in importance objectives are boiled down to Baron > Towers/Dragon > Blue/Red buff. The current meta in League often involves matching your carry/support lane against the enemies solo laner who will be gold starved during the early game and teams will generally accept the loss of the solo laner's tower early with the caveat that whichever team has their carry/support in the lane closer to dragon can take it early for a good gold/xp haul so the team giving up the dragon as well as the turret will tend to only take the lane swap if the champion draft leaves them wanting to shut down a high scaling solo laner or avoid an unfavourable matchup in a straight 2v2 carry/support.

That game strategy is about the only one where any towers are seen as expendable and in most other cases are defended heavily, some very recent professional games of League were dragged out to 60+ minute grinds with one team sieging an outer towerand the other team looking to defend it and this carrying on even after the point where dedicated tanks had built enough armour to mostly ignore the tower shots as the added danger of the tower damage or it dropping aggro and aquiring a squishy are seen as to dangerous against certain teams.

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