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CJduke

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Progression and Efficiency vs. Fun

I began writing this blog as a post to Austin's most recent Off the Clock. In his article, Austin wrote "But in Fallout 4, spending a resource often means a decrease in efficiency. I lose screws and steel and copper so that I can have a row of lights welcome me home when I return from the wastelands. The lights don’t do anything except trigger a small bolt of electricity in my brain that makes me recognize them as familiar, as something that I placed there. The “most efficient” way to play Fallout 4 would be to ignore these mechanics entirely. In the same way, the “most efficient” way to live in a real house is to spend money only on the most necessary of material improvements. Bare walls and empty shelves. What separates a house from a home is a collection of inefficient, emotional investments, and Fallout 4’s settlement system allows you to make these by the dozen". I love this point about playing games "efficiently". I feel like games often get criticized or our enjoyment of them is based on, like Jeff says, "seeing the numbers go up". I feel like a lot of people, myself included, have put way too much stock in these sorts of things. We complain about all the loot systems being similar, the numerous open world games with completion percentage bars and a list of collectibles in the hundreds, climbing towers to unlock things on a map that let us unlock more things, but sometimes it feels like we also deem a game as "not good" or "pointless" if it doesn't have these arbitrary progression systems.

As an example from what Austin wrote about, the Fallout 4 settlement and building system isn't great. The controls are janky and feel half baked. The idea that you can bring any item in the world you find back to your settlement, allowing you to design your home in anyway you want is cool, but then you realize you cant place the items easily in the way you want them. I can't get my toy rocketship to sit on a shelf facing me. I can't get jangles the moon monkey to sit on a counter. It's annoying and disappointing. Lastly, the entire gameplay system is largely "useless". You build up your settlement(s) to recruit more people, have food to gather, a place to store items, and a place for your companions to hang out. I don't really need any of these things. Food is easy to come by, as well as stimpacks. I'm playing on PC so I have 5,000 carry weight because fuck carry weight stats in games, so I don't need storage space. You can have settlers run your stores, but it is an expensive investment, especially for the higher ranking stores, and there are plenty of stores in other places to trade items. Jeff stated (and I'm paraphrasing) how it seemed that the building was a bit boring because he couldn't figure out the point to it, that it wasn't unlocking him things and getting him new stuff, so it's not efficient to play the game doing it. It's a waste of time. I feel like Jeff, and a lot of other people, myself included, take this approach to gameplay too often. If mode or scenario X isn't unlocking/filing a meter or making numbers get bigger, then it's pointless. But why?

What happened to games just being fun? I think the building/town creation in Fallout 4 is fun. I don't spend hours upon hours doing it, I certainly don't get crazy creative with it, but I take part in it and I enjoy that they put it in the game. I built a house and I dump shit in it I find in the world that I think is cool. I built rooms with furniture, I have lights and turret defenses. I have a collection of power armor models. As I get more settlers I add more water, more food, and in turn more defense. I put goofy pictures of dogs and cats on the walls. I try to place items I find, like pillows and cups, where they would fit in a real house. I put a typewriter on a desk. I have a bobblehead collection stand and magazine racks to hold my comic collection. Doing a lot of this has given me experience points, so I've probably gotten about two levels from building stuff, but beyond that there is no point to it. It didn't unlock me special perks, it didn't give me new weapons or armor. It doesn't give new missions, at least none that I have seen. It's just fun, even though it doesn't have a point. It's certainly added an extra 5 hours onto my Fallout play time that did nothing to progress my character or the story, but it was fun.

Not everything needs to have a "point." Not everything needs to be "efficient." Why play single player games for efficiency? I find myself in Fallout saying "well this gun is boring but it has waaaaay more damage than the gun that shoots an ice beam. It's certainly more fun to shoot people with an ice beam, but this generic pipe rifle kills people faster, getting me experience faster, getting me perks faster, helping me beat the game faster so I can...so I can what? Be done with the game? Why don't I just use the damn Cryolater!? It's WAY more fun! I had a similar feeling reading the Star Wars Battlefront review and watching the quick look. Dan kept talking about the progression, how lacking it all was and how that seriously impacted the review score. He kept saying "this is all there is, that's it." How about just tell us if the game is fun! If you actually enjoy playing a game, then why do you NEED any progression? Why do we need such efficiency to the things we do in games? And yes I know he did say it was mediocre, which is fine, I did not purchase the game because the gameplay did look tiresome. But I mean, would someone give Counter-Strike a lower score because you never unlock new guns or level up? Would someone say Mario is a bad game because you don't have a skill tree and earn experience points every time you jump on a goomba? No they wouldn't, because those games are just fun to play, period.

If something is fun it is fun, even if it doesn't fill some arbitrary progression meter, or is an inefficient way to play the game. Hell if you are worried about playing games efficiently, especially single player games, then I would wonder why you are playing games in the first place. They make life pretty inefficient! And sure you can just say, well the Fallout 4 building mechanics just suck and the Battlefront gameplay is basic and has no lasting value and I wouldn't disagree. The building mechanics in Fallout 4 are really lacking. Battlefront's gameplay does seem very lacking in variety. But I think it is fair, and certainly makes more sense, to judge things based on if they are fun or not, not if they have X amount of "progression." Games used to have zero progression and people loved them! Now everything needs rpg mechanics or it has "slim replay value", or 10 levels of prestige or the review score gets lowered. And yes, I didn't give the best examples with Fallout 4 and Battlefront because I agree both those games could be fairly qualified as "not fun" based on playing them alone, but they are two recent big budget games that I think highlight some issues many people have when playing games today. I even noticed on the Giantbomb forums that some people were having a blast playing Battlefront because they love Star Wars and the gameplay is so simple. Who am I to say it is inherently bad then, because the progression is thin? Efficiency and value are a weird thing. We want to feel like the progression in games, the side missions, the unlockables are all overflowing so we get our money's worth out of every game. I understand, games are expensive. But sometimes it seems like we lose sight of the most important thing in games; is it fun to play even if you don't unlock a single thing? At a certain point the progression will end. You will reach max level. You will unlock every gun. Do you stop playing then? Or do you keep playing because, level 100 character or not, the game is just damn fun to play.

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silversaint

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Edited By silversaint

I believe his entire point is the building in Fallout can be rewarding in its own right, much like building some random whatever in Minecraft, but you are not buying a Fallout game to play Minecraft. There is is essentially no tangible benefit to the Minecraft (not the weapons, but actual settlement part) portion of Fallout 4 that effects the rest of my Fallout experience. So when I have some Minecraft in my Fallout, its...fine, but if you are going to go to the effort to put this Minecraft in my Fallout, well A) actually do it well, B) actually explain it well, and, namely, C) give me a reason to play Minecraft in Fallout vs just playing Fallout in Fallout(aka the reason I am buying the game). If I really wanted to play Minecraft...well I'm going to go play Minecraft as its just straight up better in every way then Fallout Minecraft. For all the resources that went into making Minecraft Fallout and the well over dozen settlement locations, its a large portion of the game...that could of been resources put towards polishing the numerous other components of the game. So if you are going to put that many resources into Fallout Minecraft, make it relate to the rest of the game so I have an extremely good reason (that is made EXTREMELY clear ffs) to want to spend my time doing it.

An obvious example...are these sick shops that require 6 charisma and 4 perk points, plus a lot of resources to fabricate(mostly caps). Well I made one of each of the best shops in the game and made a little market cause I wanted to be settlement guy, only to find out that these shops are actively worse then just going to diamond city to sell/buy items etc because the goods are just weapons that I already have a bunch of (no rares which is all I cared about by the time I could afford these shops as I had been hording and not selling until I decided I wanted them) and the money restock is terrible. Half the time I go talk to a vendor in my market only to see they have 0 caps, I sleep for a day, still 0 caps, decide to go do a quest, complete it and come back...still 0 caps. I go to diamond city and the vendors are always fully restocked, plus some have good resources for weapon modding (adhesive) so its way easier to sell my 5-10K of weaponry that I can't carry around because I am a dumbass that didn't modify my encumbrance. Like why am I wasting 4 perk points and 5 special points (so 9 levels) along with like 15K caps, JUST TO MAKE these shops that are literally worse then the actual vendor shops in major locations. I eventually read there are special super secret god settle vendors, but...why do I need a super secret god settler vendors when i already spent so much? The lack of efficiency and fun regarding those settlement vendors is real.

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Tennmuerti

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Edited By Tennmuerti

Ultimately it's because progression helps.

It's why the vast majority of games that never had progression rewards now have it as a staple, shooters, strategy games, racing games, all have adopted in some for or another a sliver of rpg mechanics. Because that shit works, it's a dopamine release, we figured it out. So when you take those systems away the act of playing has to stand entirely on it's own two legs, with nothing propping it up. And some games do that well. But that depends entirely on the game and the actions in it you're doing and the person doing them. The base building system might be fun for you just on it's own, for many others it's clunky and boring, and if it had a meaningful reward system it would have ultimately have roped in more people to try it and enjoy it.

Like you said if something is fun it's fun. But if something is borderline on fun and not fun a progression/reward system can push it more so into the fun side of things.

(SWBF problem as it is told is not just lack of progression it's lack of progression coupled together with lack of content and depth)

You made a good post but I feel too many times it falls prey to the temptation to separate things up neatly, (reasonable) peoples judgement of games or reviews are not based on factors in isolation but on how well they work together. So to construct any arguments of: "X is bad because of just Y" to knock them down, is ultimately deceptive (more so to yourself).

(for the record I spent a shitload of time with Fallout 4 settlements and do enjoy parts of pimping them out)

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TobbRobb

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The obsession with progression is actually getting kind of absurd. I'm absolutely a sucker for seeing numbers go up, extensive Jrpg playing and stuff like Disgaea and Monster Hunter proves as much. But some games just DON'T NEED IT. Would Quake 3 be better if the rocket launcher was something I unlocked after a few matches? No. Is Battlefield and Call of Duty actively less interesting to me because it makes me use shit I don't like to get things I do like? Yes. Like come on man. Multiplayer games are about playing a game with other people. If all I wanted was to see my level go up, there's a million other games that does it better without hampering my enjoyment of a social experience. Just fucking let me play the game.

Dear god I just realised how venty this post became. Leaving it untouched for science.

Basically, it's cool that Fallout 4 has a cool thing in it for no explicit reason other than it's cool. I appreciate that. The end.

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Frybird

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Interesting post...

...as for me personally, it's complicated.

I resent progression in Multiplayer Games (outside of per-match or cosmetic unlocks) and therefore lost interest in playing most stuff Multiplayer. And i certainly can enjoy elements of games for thier own sake.

That said, things without clear goals in games can certainly annoy me as much as arbitrary busywork. While i can understand the appeal of an non-restrictive sandbox like Minecraft, when i play games that don't immediately are all about going this route, i like to know if i'm working towards something or if i'm "wasting my time".

Maybe thats the issue with Fallout 4. It's a game that is so packed with stuff to work towards that it makes such a nonessential and ""useless"" element like the building aspect stick out all the more.

(I also think the very divisive Reviews of Just Cause 3 are, aside from technical issues, sort of a thing that depends on expectations. JC as a series never was stellar in terms of gameplay, but sold people on the unprecedented power fantasy of being a nearly unstoppable destructive force that can go anywhere and do anything as long as it either has something to do with moving fast or blowing stuff up, and seems still like it's the best game within these outlines.

Yet, if you are not willing to "make your own fun" and compare it with games that more strongly gear towards different goals, you probably see the game as deeply flawed for reasons other people simply do not care about)

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CJduke

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Edited By CJduke

@frybird: Good point about just cause 3. I'm playing it and enjoying it but it really is a game that splits the need for progression and for just having fun with the game itself. I have gotten a bit bored with it but then I look at the map and see I can unlock one more gear and get the next upgrade...other times I see a giant explosion and go OK this game is awesome. So best of both worlds I guess?

@tobbrobb: im in the same boat as you, i love diablo 3 but man do i get sick of unlocking guns in multiplayer games.

@tennmuerti: I agree, i have certainly loved progression systems in games. I could have written a better post if i took my time to research better games as examples but i got lazy and fallout and star wars are recent examples. I dont mean to present my argument as black and white, every facet of a game should be critically analyzed, but i just dont like the idea that progression makes a game good, the gameplay is most important. We used to not have all these level up systems in games. But of course i agree with all your points

@silversaint: All good points, thanks for warning me about the high level shops. I completely agree with you that fallout mine craft isn't very good, I just really like Austin's point, that there is value in it even though it is inefficient. I certainly would never tell anyone to buy fallout 4 because of the building mechanics.

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ninjalegend

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I think the type of game reflects the importance of progression and pacing. I love the way you can fly through Vanquish at a fever pace that never lets up. A collect-a-thon would ruin the pace of that game and detract from the fun. That is a single player game I play for fun and efficiency is key to enjoying it. The frantic pace reminds me of old nes shooters like Contra. Games with heavy narrative reliant on cut scenes would also suffer from a break in pacing.

Large open world games that thrive on exploration are enriched by useless or tack on things if they convey a feeling of making the world your own. It does nothing to push the story forward buying a house in Skyrim, but it is crucial for my dragonborn. He would be lost if he could not lay out his alternate armor/weapon set near his bed. I mean, where else would he store it? These games are made with this in mind. Could you imagine how unwieldy these games would be if every side story and every collectible were a required part of the story?

The issue lies in everyone wanting one size fits all games. That would be bad and create middling piles of junk nobody wants to play. Just because you like spaceships does not mean No Man's Sky is for you. Games and series change as well. I have bought every Elder Scroll game since Daggerfall. I can't stand MMOs so I know to leave Elder Scrolls online alone.

The entitled gamer that moans "How dare you mess with my franchise!" is so tired. I've heard it when Super Mario 2 come out in the US, when Wind Waker come out, MGS2, Metroid Prime, Oblivion, and too many others to even list. What I find odd is these gamers are often also the ones who drones "There is no more creativity in games anymore."