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Is the RPG as a unique genre dead?

You're already calling me crazy. Hold on a minute. (or skip to the TLDR version at the bottom~)
 
This is history as I'm seeing it: 

I'm looking at this as a matter of definition. For a long time all games were in the realm of the tabletop, and "role playing games" made sense in comparison to classic abstract games (Board games and sports very rarely have a profound back story to them). Even wargames, which model real world combat, were often isolated conflicts forever being told and retold with no consequence on each other. But with RPG's, Instead of being the general on an ethereal checkerboard battlefield, players were jumping into the "role" of an individual with an entire plot ahead of them. A new term for a new game experience.  

For a time this went on, and all was good. Until video games.  

The impact wasn't immediate. During the arcade era, video games were created in a similar mindset to classical tabletop games. For a time, hardware limitations forced a sense of abstraction to game elements. Slowly games gained more resolution, and developers were able to add more definition to their games. Triangles became ships, gained colors, and so on.  
Some people might point to this time period and half sarcastically say "Well, in defender you play the 'role' of a space ship pilot. So doesn't that make it a role playing game?" Logically, that could be a sound argument. The loss of abstraction also seems to fall on the RPG side of the definition from the tabletop era. But even as hardware increased and games gained setting and themes and back story, games remained these isolated experiences. This was still a stark difference from RPG's. You start a game, you play until you die, and then that game is wrapped up and tossed into the void of the infinite. You could start a new game, as long as you had more quarters, of course.   

That was the importance of the home market. Even though the mindset stuck for a long time that games should be short and repeatable, eventually designers began to understand that game experiences could be longer and have more permanence. Passwords came about, and are a kind of remarkable invention in this context. But the point is that games were developing from short isolated events into longer experiences which had room for not just clearly defined characters, but even character development and plots with twists and other such elements of storytelling.  

Fast forward to current day. The possibility for narrative is being well explored from many fronts. Traditional storytelling is exercised in games, linear plots and narratives are alternated with gameplay that challenges the player. Designers are also delving into ideas of immersion and social aspects among other areas. Most importantly to RPG's, the idea of player agency in storytelling is a topic which some developers are focusing almost their entire efforts on. Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age games are probably the most spoken of games in this area, and with good cause. They give the player character to fall into the role of, and they they allow that player to develop their interpretation of that character given the world they are in. They are as close to the pure RPG experiences offered in the pen and paper days.
 
Now the actual argument I'm trying to make here: 
 
Bioware games are close to pure RPG experiences, but they aren't. Pen and paper RPG systems were created to facilitate storytelling and, well, role playing. The characters, and the players acting as the characters was the core that the games were based on, and the systems built around that. Video games have a number of existing cores, however, looking at existing VG genres. Platformers, FPS, RTS, action / adventure... the list can be pretty long, and at times very vague. I don't know if RPG should even go on that list. 
 
Personally, I don't think it belongs there. Not when a popular decision for designers is to slap some "RPG elements" onto whatever game they happen to be making. If RPG's can be distilled into a syrup that you can pour over whatever genre that you want, then it can't be a genre on it's own, right? 
 
Looking at it backwards, even the games I mentioned could be consider to be of other genre's with RPG mechanics. Mass Effect is a third person squad based shooter with some cover mechanics and special skills. Fallout 3 is basically a sandbox first person shooter. Castlevania SotN is an open world side-scrolling platformer. Are they RPG at their core, or are they defined otherwise with RPG elements? Can RPG's even exist in video game form, or is there something about the tabletop realm that defines what an RPG really is?
 
Or is there something else at fault here? Are video game genre's laughably vague and murky so that they are beyond use? Is "RPG elements" a misnomer for what mechanics like leveling up, side quests, and loot are? Am I just a crazy person? 
 
All of these possibilities seem equally likely to me, so I ask the public. Do the people see any truth in this argument?
 
PS. For sake of argument I'm ignoring JRPG's and MMORPG's. MMORPGS's are more about social aspects, avatars, and slaying/fetch quests then they are about telling the stories of the player characters. JRPG's, regardless of their story writing and telling, are often terrible in terms of gameplay and player agency. I'm going to write an article later about why they're bad games as well as bad RPG's, so please yell at me later for that.) 
 
TLDR version: 
 
RPG elements can be applied to anything, and all of today's RPG's could be defined by their other systems (FPS, platformer, etc). Are there actually any RPG's anymore?

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Example1013

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@LCom: And I'm specifically replying to the OP: I take exception to the idea that MMORPGs have no relation to role-playing. Those things you mentioned only apply to shitty MMORPGs. EVE Online can be taken as an example, because from what I've heard, the world is largely shaped by the players. Because player-run guilds control the world, can you really discount the role-playing aspect? I mean, in a game like that, it would seem that player agency is taken to an even further extreme than in a Bioware game, because players in a literal sense create their own stories and shape the world around them, except on a grander scale involving large organizations of players, rather than a small, 5-man D&D club like old P&P RPGs used to do. 
 
One might even argue that an MMO like that is the truest distillation of the RPG experience. And I can give you some pretty compelling stories to demonstrate this out of my experience with that type of game.
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butano

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I don't think there will ever be a video game RPG to ever catch the feeling of a pen and paper one. The closest that comes to mind would be TES, giving you that open range feel and doing whatever you want, even if you could get your character up to crazy levels with amazing stats. The dialogue choices are sort of meh, but again, going out, robbing a house, joining a guild, sneaking out of jail, bribing folks to give you info, is what RPGs in general are about. Giving you the freedom to be whoever you want be.

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AlexW00d

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@example1013 said:
" @AlexW00d: Did you read past the first line of the first paragraph? I brought up 3 games where you play a role in the main character, all of which I stated aren't RPGs, because they're not. Granted, I wrote the first paragraph off-the-cuff, and then failed to revise it before posting, but I still delineated that a game isn't just an RPG because you're a main character in a story.  Way to make the same point I made, but act like you were disagreeing with me. "
Of course I did, but the rest had nothing to do with my point so why talk about it? And if I was making the same point as you in that post then you must have been making the same point as me in your first post, which makes you a hypocrite. 
Also ME2 is entirely an RPG, you control a character and manipulate the story with the choices you make.
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Example1013

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@AlexW00d said:
" @example1013 said:
" @AlexW00d: Did you read past the first line of the first paragraph? I brought up 3 games where you play a role in the main character, all of which I stated aren't RPGs, because they're not. Granted, I wrote the first paragraph off-the-cuff, and then failed to revise it before posting, but I still delineated that a game isn't just an RPG because you're a main character in a story.  Way to make the same point I made, but act like you were disagreeing with me. "
Of course I did, but the rest had nothing to do with my point so why talk about it? And if I was making the same point as you in that post then you must have been making the same point as me in your first post, which makes you a hypocrite. Also ME2 is entirely an RPG, you control a character and manipulate the story with the choices you make. "
How does it make me a hypocrite? RPGs aren't defined just by player-influenced stories. Champions of Norrath was an entirely linear game with no player choices beyond class, weapons, and character progression. The ending is the same no matter what race, class, or skill tree choices you make. It's still an RPG. In the same vein, inFamous has a player-influenced story and game world, where moral choices affect much of the final outcome. But inFamous is not an RPG, it's an action game. 
 
ME2 is more of a point of contention, and not having played the game, I'll rescind my statement on that for better-equipped people to judge. 
 
I guess I misunderstood your posts. I thought you were referring to more than just the plot, when in fact you're basically saying that multiple endings is the only thing that makes a game an RPG. Early RPGs had endings that you made up yourselves, because you'd write the story. So in a sense, the first RPGs were absolutely linear, with no dialogue trees or alternate endings.
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Punk1984

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@example1013 said:
Champions of Norrath was not an RPG, it was a top down action game, same with Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance and Gauntlet. InFamous is an action game. RPGs tend to have tropes that grew out of Dungeons & Dragons; things like character creation, character development, stats that track your characters prowess, mathematically resolved actions. 
Mass Effect 2 strips out a lot of that stuff but still remains based in RPG tropes. I would call it a Third Person Action Game that started as an RPG.
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Example1013

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@Punk1984: You...do know that those games had all of those tropes, right? They even had the setting and enemy tropes (fantasy hack 'n slash, orcs, goblins, bugbears, etc. etc.). Like, name one RPG feature of mass effect (besides story choices, we've covered that) and I'm pretty sure you can find it in any of those 3 games you named. Except that in Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance, the 3 classes were also unique characters, and their races and genders and everything were unchangeable. 
  
I've also only ever heard people refer to them as ARPGs, which are still RPGs. 
 
Don't believe me? 
 
Look here, here, and here, and tell me what it says under genre. Three reputable gaming websites all listing it as an ARPG, not an action game. Champions: Return To Arms was even more of an RPG by AlexW00d's definition, because you had some basic story choice thrown in.
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Punk1984

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@example1013: Okay kid what does the "A" in ARPG stand for "Action." Your problem is that you're so sure you're right that you refuse to see that an essential element is depth. Yes Norrath has 'stats' and that must make it an RPG right because we need one defining element to call something unequivocally an 'RPG' so if it has stats or character creation it must be an RPG because that is what it is. Right? No, look at the whole game. Sure it may have parts of an RPG, but that doesn't make it, it may have parts of an action game but that doesn't make it an action game. What is it as a whole. Baldur's Gate is an RPG, Final Fantasy is a RPG. They are two vastly different games that fall under the same genre.
 
Also next time you write a paper (because I'm sure you will) don't use a wiki website as proof of something.
 
Oh and above all else cool down, no one is going to punch a puppy if the internet doesn't agree with you.
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BigLemon

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@LordXavierBritish said:
" @LCom said:
" @LordXavierBritish: Any ideas how to fix them then? "
Stop using genres.  Defining anything by genre is pretty stupid in the first place.  Game mechanics have gotten too complex to still be using definitions that were, at the latest, conceived decades ago. "
this is exactly it. To try and confine something to the unidimensional contrivances of a single genre is absurd. Games are just too complex these days. And it's not bad to move away from labeling.
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floodiastus

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@jozzy said:
" @floodiastus said:
" @BaneFireLord said:
" The concept of leveling up and adding points into various skill trees is what makes an RPG. Some games have leveling up, but no skill trees. Some games have skill trees, but no leveling up. RPGs have both. "
That is what makes a videogame RPG sure, but that is not what PnP RPGs are about at all, which focuses on roleplaying/theatrics... and most RPGs I played we did not even role any dice nor had any statistics but were played more or less as psychology sessions where we delve into our inner personas to shatter identities to free our minds from the shackles of society. "
Really? I just equiped my barbarian with a morningstar and 20d the shit out of orcs in little rooms and hallways. "
Really, well you got a bad group running my friend :) Dungeons and Dragons is the pinnacle of mindless hack-n-slash genre too, hardly a proper RPG imho although some ppl use the system for character development fine.
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Punk1984

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@floodiastus said:
" Really, well you got a bad group running my friend :) Dungeons and Dragons is the pinnacle of mindless hack-n-slash genre too, hardly a proper RPG imho although some ppl use the system for character development fine. "
Bad mouth it all you want Dungeons & Dragons is the original and best RPG system. It allows you to be theatrical and still defines play mechanics in a way that helps those that don't want theatrics to still enjoy the game.
I dare you to build an encounter in any other system that couldn't be done better in D&D
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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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I'm no longer super interested by selecting options from a menu.  I don't think I ever was.  I wanted the story, characters and statistical development you see in RPGs and now I can get that in games that have action-based combat.

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Little_Socrates

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@LCom said:

"Is "RPG elements" a misnomer for what mechanics like leveling up, side quests, and loot are?"

THIS is the problem between games and RPGs. RPGs are not about leveling up, side quests, loot, stats, skill trees, or ANY of that. RPGs are about storytelling. 
 
Let's take a look at a nominee for last year's Tabletop RPG of the Year, FIASCO. Here's a quick quote of the description. 
 
@BullyPulpitGames said:

Fiasco is a GM-less game for 3-5 players, designed to be played in a few hours with six-sided dice and no preparation. During a game you will engineer and play out stupid, disastrous situations, usually at the intersection of greed, fear, and lust. It’s like making your own Coen brothers movie, in about the same amount of time it’d take to watch one.    

Now, this game has no statistics. At the start of the game, you assign characteristics such as past relationships, starting location, goals, and possessions, but none of these things have numerical values put upon them. If combat is engaged, dice rolls do not determine the winner; the players, all trying to tell a good story, must decide (or, if the group initiated the combat in the first place, one of the players will decide the winner.) There is no leveling up, there are no side characters (unless a player chooses to be a supporting role or something) and, though there is often loot, it's not persistent. When the game ends, the game is over; if it went well, type it up and send it in to the people who made the game. 
 
RPGs are about the decision-making and the like. Gameplay is absolutely secondary. LARP games don't always involve dice rolls either, nor do they always involve leveling up (outside of maybe a player going to the gym.) You could resolve gameplay situations in an RPG entirely by playing games of Guitar Hero. 
 
Character progression is often an element of the RPGs that popularized the genre, such as D&D and Final Fantasy. But it isn't always an element, nor are turn-based battle systems, and loot is especially not always an RPG staple. 
 
In that sense, though, RPGs should not be classified alongside "shooters" or "action-adventure" games. They are a type of presentation. 
 
(I'm going to write my own blog about this.)
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deactivated-5a46aa62043d1

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No. Don't be stupid. 
 
RPGs come out all the damn time, it's just that some people are too narrow-minded to accept that not every RPG needs to be about loot, stats, and dice-rolling. 

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Example1013

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@Punk1984: I said that the game's an Action RPG. That's still a kind of RPG, right? I mean, just because we add the word "Action" that doesn't mean we take away the "Role-Playing Game" part of the genre definition, right? 
 
But moving beyond nomenclature, let's get to the substance of the game. In the post I replied to, you said that RPGs follow typical D&D tropes, implying that Champions of Norrath didn't. I pointed out that every trope listed is in Champions of Norrath. If you want to get really in-depth about this, I don't mind directly comparing the linear storyline of CoN to a pre-fabricated D&D adventure, as in both you create a character (or take a previously created character), travel through areas, fight monsters, level up, get stronger and gain new abilities, get fat loot, and then fight a boss and either wash, rinse, & repeat or finish up (because the game/adventure is over). So are pre-written D&D adventures now not RPGs either?
 
The last sentence of the first paragraph mentions how two very different games are within the scope of the same genre. I fail to see how that applies to any argument made, as it neither proves nor disproves my point (indeed, it barely addresses it at all).
 
I also know that the three sites I listed are wikis. I listed them to show corroboration among different websites (and thus, likely, different communities). It's not like there's one authority on the subject whose word is law on genre. Rather, the definition of a genre has to be created through general consensus. And if there's general consensus on a definition, and general consensus on whether or not some game is within the genre, then it can safely be stated, factually, that the game is of that particular genre. 
 
And besides all this, I'm willing to bet that critical hits and damage were based largely on simulated die-rolls (i.e. the selection of pseudo-random numbers), which is incredibly D&D. 
 
I fail to see what part of Champions of Norrath makes it not an RPG (specifically an ARPG, if it makes you feel better to have that caveat). And you have failed to define where Champions of Norrath differs from an RPG, which is your thesis. 
 
I don't mind the internet disagreeing, I just genuinely think that I'm right, and until we reach a point of difference based solely and completely on opinion, I'm willing to discuss this with you.
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Punk1984

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@example1013: 
You know somewhere there is a version of you that is relaxed, calm and concise. 

Anyway my point was that Champions of Norrath is an "Action Role-Playing Game" like Zelda or Baldur's Gate ark Alliance and therefore not actually a Role Playing Game mainly because it lacks party management and tactical combat. Two things that I feel are part of Role Playing Games specifically Computer Role Playing Games and Single Player Role Playing Games. 

I wasn't trying to imply that Champions of Norrth didn't follow these tropes. I was just bringing them up to help define a "RPG"
 
As far as general consensus being correct, I disagree but I'm not gonna change your mind on that right now so we'll leave that life lesson for you to discover on your own.
 
Actually my thesis was on "The Roll of Color and Sound in Setting the Tone of a Motion Picture". My other thesis was on "The Role of Behavior Training in the Treatment of Anxiety Disorders." How did you get a hold of those?
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AlexW00d

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@example1013: It's the influencing the story and the sculpting of the character how you see fit that makes an RPG. That was my initial point. 
 
 
Off topic: But why in the fuck is there a couple of semi naked animé children in the footer? 
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Example1013

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@Punk1984: Okay, now that you brought up party management I see your point. I didn't understand what criteria you were dismissing those games as RPGs with, which is why I was confused and a maybe a bit confrontational in my response. I guess that's really a matter of opinion, because I personally don't feel that party management is necessary for a game to qualify as "Role-Playing".
 
Anyways, the point I was trying to make about the consensus being correct is that, because genre is defined by consensus (at least within the scope of games), and the genre of a game is determined by consensus, the corroboration of multiple sources can be used to determine a game's genre. I'll admit that it's not exactly the best conclusion to be drawn, but that's (hopefully) a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say. 
 
When I'm not debating, I'm relaxed and calm, but I'm almost never concise.
 
 
@AlexW00d: And I'm disagreeing with you. I don't think player influence on the story is a necessary part of an RPG, based on the linearity of so many of them (where the only choices involve skill and stat progression, as opposed to story progression). To make requisite player influence on story is to remove an enormous chunk of games that I (and probably most people) consider to be RPGs.
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floodiastus

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@Punk1984 said:
" @floodiastus said:
" Really, well you got a bad group running my friend :) Dungeons and Dragons is the pinnacle of mindless hack-n-slash genre too, hardly a proper RPG imho although some ppl use the system for character development fine. "
Bad mouth it all you want Dungeons & Dragons is the original and best RPG system. It allows you to be theatrical and still defines play mechanics in a way that helps those that don't want theatrics to still enjoy the game. I dare you to build an encounter in any other system that couldn't be done better in D&D "
"ok"  
 
Build an encounter? Man I dont know how you run campaigns but no rulebook ever helped out in "building an encounter", it is all based on the characters backstory and the intrigues of the storyline, it has nothing to do with rules at all. But whatever, you might play RPGs like you play videogames.....
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Punk1984

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@floodiastus: So in these other games how does one resolve a conflict between players? How does a player succeed in a task and how do they measure that success. ? 
 
When you start looking at the system as a 'game' and not as a group therapy session you start to realize why so many other games have fallen by the wayside while D&D has become a cultural icon.
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s10129107

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rpg - you know it when you see it. 
 
if you are spending hours developing a character and interacting with a rich environment you are most likely playing an rpg

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Punk1984

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@example1013 said:
" @Punk1984: Okay, now that you brought up party management I see your point. I didn't understand what criteria you were dismissing those games as RPGs with, which is why I was confused and a maybe a bit confrontational in my response. I guess that's really a matter of opinion, because I personally don't feel that party management is necessary for a game to qualify as "Role-Playing".
 
Anyways, the point I was trying to make about the consensus being correct is that, because genre is defined by consensus (at least within the scope of games), and the genre of a game is determined by consensus, the corroboration of multiple sources can be used to determine a game's genre. I'll admit that it's not exactly the best conclusion to be drawn, but that's (hopefully) a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say. 
 
When I'm not debating, I'm relaxed and calm, but I'm almost never concise.  
I think you keep looking for a check list of mechanics that make something an RPG when the game has to be taken as a whole. It can be an RPG and lack "Party Management" or "Stats." I mean yes those games lacked party management and NPC interaction as well as a player directed narrative but they still fall under the Action Role Playing Game banner because of the stuff they do have "Stats" "Persistence Rewards" "Character Progression."
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Example1013

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Edited By Example1013
@Punk1984: I'm confused. Are we agreeing, or disagreeing? I said they were ARPGs. I also said that an ARPG is a type of RPG. I thought that you said they weren't RPGs at all, and I didn't see how, since they pretty much fit the bill in my mind (create a character, go on an adventure, get stronger, etc.). I didn't understand how you were considering them not to be RPGs. 
 
I'm trying to discuss this in terms of criteria (mechanics, setting, etc.) because that makes it a lot easier. I could say that a game isn't defined strictly by one part or another, and that i know an RPG when I see one, but that makes discussion difficult (look at the controversy over the RPG status of Mass Effect 2). 
 
I'm also confused, though, as to how you judge a game "as a whole" without analyzing its constituent parts. I'm basically trying to find a ruler that we can all agree to measure by, and saying to take a game "as a whole" isn't exactly a well-defined method for judgment.
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Punk1984

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@example1013:  
1) We're agreeing- sort of. You view the Action RPG as a subset of RPG. I view it as something different for instance you wouldn't say "The Legend of Zelda and Pool of Radiance belong to the same genre of game." because they both feature vastly different play mechanics. So if you agree that Action RPGs are a separate genre than RPGs then I guess we agree. 
 
It terms of judging a game and how I look at as 'a whole' without judging the separate parts; this is how I take into account the play mechanics and then judge them together instead of judging them one by one. You said you 'know an RPG when I see one' that is the same thing. When confronted with a game it is easier to pass judgement on its genre than to build a list of criteria that you are going to use to judge it. 
 
Basically you can judge the breaks, the engine and the transmission but you won't know if it is a good car until you drive it.
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LCom

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@BeachThunder said:  "If anything, what you're indicating here is that 'RPG' is indeed a coherent term - you can capture its main essence into something that can be "distilled". If Mario Kart included areas where you pick up a gun and shoot goombas from a first-person perspective, would it not be a racing game which included first person shooter sections? "

Well is that what's being said? To what extent would such a section reach? How much of that type of game need to be applied before the switch from "Racing with FPS elements" to "FPS/Racing"?     @Punk1984 said:  "  @TheDudeOfGaming: I actually just thought of a good response; Saying that there is no RPG genre because RPG elements are in other games, is like saying there is no Maple Syrup because you only use it on pancakes and waffles. "

More that when you eat something with maple syrup on it you say "I'm eating pancakes (with syrup)" Not "I'm eating maple syrup (oh and some pancakes too if you want to push the issue)".  Syrup alone doesn't make the meal.     @Juno500 said:  "Genre names don't need to give a precise definition of the game to work. It's just meant to be a quick, shorthand description of a game so that you can give somebody a rough idea of what the game is without getting into specifics. If you've never heard of Bulletstorm before, and I tell you it's an FPS, then you have a basic idea of what to expect. "

Okay, but even then when you say FPS the ideas it calls up are the functional definition of that genre. Just because no one sat down and wrote it out doesn't mean it's not there. But FPS brings up thoughts of how you view  with the world, the kinds of actions you can expect to take, and a pretty quick idea of the goal of the game (shoot stuff). When you say RPG, it brings up ideas about character building, maybe exp and skill trees and the like, but that's only half the story. What is are the action the player can take beyond this character building? That why I bring up RPG's specifically instead of calling out the VG genre system as a whole.      @owl_of_minerva @example1013: I never meant to say that people are no longer playing or creating games which use RPG mechaincs or draw from them. Far from it. If anything I'm seeing more games take these elements into themselves.

just @example1013: When I talk about MMO's I'm coming from very limited experience. And personally, I like to actualy play from a character standpoint. I have two characters who I make respond in different ways to a given situation. But in my experience, MMO's don't really facilitate situations where charater personality difference mean much. Saint or Jerk, you still have to bring the clerk 20 pelts. And players will give each other situations where personality differences matter, but I have not seen the prevailing trend of players to be to play from that peronality point. Their character is composed of skills, not of morals. Even when they have alts, it's so they have different loadouts, not diffrent personalities. If you can show me examples contrary to this, I would love to see them.

@Little_Socrates: I hadn't heard of FIASCO, but I'm definately going to go check it out now. Also I'll read the blog once you write it!    

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Example1013

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@Punk1984: Yeah, I see what you're saying and I guess you're right. I just figured it would be easier to talk in abstraction about the genre as a whole if we had an abstract definition to go with, but that's probably impossible given the wide variety of games contained within the idea of RPG. 
 
And the only real reason why I consider games like Champions of Norrath to fit into the RPG category is because it's like a simplified, single-player version of a D&D adventure at its core in every aspect except combat and skills (specifically, the treeing). But yeah, I definitely don't consider Zelda to be a true RPG. 
 
I appreciate the evenness with which you've debated me. I get...heated sometimes. Well, a lot. Actually, just about every time.
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Chaoskiller2000

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RPG's are still very much around, more so on handhelds now but still. Yes there is less of them but they are still around and probably will continue to be around.

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floodiastus

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@Punk1984 said:
" @floodiastus: So in these other games how does one resolve a conflict between players? How does a player succeed in a task and how do they measure that success. ?  When you start looking at the system as a 'game' and not as a group therapy session you start to realize why so many other games have fallen by the wayside while D&D has become a cultural icon. "
The GM determines the succes and yes the focus is more on roleplaying than on GAME, it is about escapism and dissecting the psyche of each individual together and  weaving storylines. I have played a huge amount of Dungons and Dragons too, but it was a much more shallow experience than playing alot of other RPGs, much had to do with the rules system, killing monsters give you XP and make your character grow stronger, instead of having your characters persona grow and get XP from that instead, which is a much more interesting way of playing imho. 
 
D&D is a cultural icon because it was marketed in a good way and it now has the monster that is Wizard of the Coast behind it, and because people like hack n slash. I would not say Call of Duty is the best game ever made just because it is popular with the kids ;)
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I do not think the Genre itself is dead, but the word and use of the word "RPG," however, is. 
 
I will disagree with your opinion for Mass Effect and its universe. It's a gigantic scope of imaginable things that are no different than having a person in front of you creating the story as you go along. Just this time its already done for you. Mass Effect really makes you feel into your character and make him or her your own. You begin to feel feelings for your crew mates, make decisions as a Space Pilot rather than a person sitting in front of his TV. That is the aspect that truly makes an RPG. When you can truly bring yourself to be a part of your Avatar and play the game through them instead of as them.
 
Like I said, I DO believe that the title of "RPG,' as a genre, is dead. Only because people who do not really know what that entitlement means, decided they could use it.

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DystopiaX

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I think a lot of genre titles are dead. Really the only games that are just one genre are like FPS (and even then perks and such add some level of really light RPG-like customizability) and racing games. A lot of action-adventures also have platforming and RPG elements, a lot of RPGs have shooter or action elements, etc. Rather than RPGs being dead I just think that the way we title and brand things as one genre or another is dead, or at least needs serious reworking.

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Disgaea 4 is coming out...

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Example1013

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@LCom: Well, you could always find an RP guild. They're a dying breed, but I'm sure there are some out there. When I started out I was in a newbie guild in which the leaders all enjoyed doing some light RPing, and the whole guild had its own lore and everything. 
 
But one thing about Shadowbane was that you actually interacted with other people, and so someone else's personality not only impacted their treatment of you, but it could also lead to reaction. Being an asshole in a weaker guild could result in getting your town (where you respawn if you die outside of town) camped for hours as the pissed off guild just repeatedly ganked anyone who happened to stop by. Also, if anything was left unprotected, you could get shit burnt down or stolen. And if you really pissed off another guild, you might end up with a bane stone outside your city 
 
A bane was where your town's Tree of Life (the thing that you spawn on, and the thing that grants your guild ownership--like a combination between a deed and a control point) became vulnerable until either the bane stone or the Tree was destroyed. So getting baned meant your town, along with all your property and wealth, was at risk. 
 
The forums for the game were also extremely active. Basically, they were the place for politicking. So the interaction between you and your guild, and rival players and guilds, was the entirety of the game. Thus while you might not role-play a character, the game was extremely immersive in a different way, because you'd be actively involved in the politics of the server, whether through actual politicking or just through slugging it out with other players. 
 
Also, are you hitting the reply button to @reply people? Because I didn't get a PM, and I'm supposed to.
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@example1013: I'm still getting used to the way these GB forums work. I had to save my post in a .txt file until it let me post again, and that made it lose all that messaging / formatting stuff.  
 
It sounds to me like Shadowbane does have mechanics where the gameplay is affected by social interaction. There's a lot of great experiences that come from that kind of gameplay, but to me that's less an aspect of the game being an RPG and more about the game being MMO / social based. To me it seems more based around the same ideas as Facebook games. 
 
For what I expect out of RPG's, there's not enough distinction between player and character. If I have my character in a guild, and he's set up as a carpenter, I end up thinking to myself "Well here I am, I'm a carpenter. Waiting around to carpent." Where as when I'm talking about my character in a game of Mass Effect, I always refer to them as LCom Shepard, and tell of their exploits. 
 
When an in-game character has some restrictions on their story and history, it forces the player to make decisions they would not play if they were playing purely as themselves. I'm not saying that they aren't able to shape the actions and future of the character, but an existing history gives the player something unique to the game session to consider when making their actions. 
 
In playing P&P RPG's, I find the game experience is always better when the players sit down with each other and form their characters together. Talking out how characters have existing relations to each other, or at least getting ideas for how the characters fit into the world enriches the experience. Games like Traveler try to build this sort of thing into character creation by having the player not only roll the character, but roll their past as well. 
 
Every MMO I can think of that I've played gives the player character as vague a past as possible. The game asks the player who they want to be and how they want to play, but doesn't do anything to integrate the player into that world. It seems to brings you in under the assumption that the character is going to be an extension of you. And if you are going to integrate your character into the world, the player is going to put in the effort to break in and do that from scratch. Even then, the only world that the players can break into is the one being driven by the other players. 
 
There's nothing wrong with this, but it makes the game closer to a virtual environment like Second Life. Except that MMO's are actually games. And don't suck every ball possible.
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@floodiastus:  
Don't blame D&D because your DM failed to hand out XP for things other than slaying monsters. Experience points are supposed to be awarded for overcoming obstacles. D&D is built to handle all situations of play, combat, intrigue and dialog. 
Also, you know Dungeons & Dragons was the first roleplaying game, right? The game is a cultural icon because it does something no other game does and it does it very well. You can be dismissive all you want but without D&D whatever game you are playing wouldn't exist.  
IT sounds like the only reason you don't like D&D is because of its popularity, which considering what we are talking about is highly ironic.
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@example1013: if you want a real single player D&D experience I would suggest something more like Oblivion. Norrath is just kind of a Diablo clone. Not that that is bad, but it isn't D&D. A big part of RPGs in general is a player guided storyline, kind of like a choose your own adventure. Horrath and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance are just kind of hit monsters until the boss then get loot and go to next area. 
 
Actually thinking of Oblivion that kind of blows the definition of FPS out of the water. Oblivion is in First Person Perspective and you can shoot in it. BAM! My mind is blown.
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floodiastus

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@Punk1984 said:
" @floodiastus:  Don't blame D&D because your DM failed to hand out XP for things other than slaying monsters. Experience points are supposed to be awarded for overcoming obstacles. D&D is built to handle all situations of play, combat, intrigue and dialog. Also, you know Dungeons & Dragons was the first roleplaying game, right? The game is a cultural icon because it does something no other game does and it does it very well. You can be dismissive all you want but without D&D whatever game you are playing wouldn't exist.  IT sounds like the only reason you don't like D&D is because of its popularity, which considering what we are talking about is highly ironic. "
D&D was not the first roleplaying game, both Braunstein and Blackmoor was made before it. Nevertheless I have no problem with D&D but when reading the rulebooks there are alot more focus on  rules and then about 10 pages about the actual ROLEplaying, dont play ignorant that you don't know it is a famous hack-n-slasher. I have no problem with it being popular, but that IS the reason it is an RPG icon. "My DM" hah, funny I have played RPGs for over 25 years with loads of different groups in different countries almost always the dungeons and dragons sessions where more hack n slashy than the psychological aproach that games like Kult and Call of Cthulhu bring to the table. 
 
In any case, to contribute to the thread, I think bioware IS on the right track with the dialogue trees because that to me is much more about defining the character your are playing (the ROLE in roleplaying) than leveling up stats and weapons. 
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Example1013

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@LCom: Ah. Formatting issues happen, I was just asking because sometimes the site bugs out and fails to PM me when people @reply me. 
 
  
An MMO isn't a great place for character development by its nature, is sort of the problem. But it's not like the game was completely without role-playing aspects. I've spent a good amount of time trying to write this post, mostly with lengthy paragraphs. But I guess the best way to sum up Shadowbane is that the roles are played by the player, not the character. In the guild I was in, I played my position. I helped out rolling gear and such, and I played a bunch of support toons, usually priest (main healer) during battles. I was also busy a lot, so I wasn't on often. My role was really kind of just to give light support here and there within the guild. 
 
I mean, it was sort of like being a member of a kingdom in some sort of feudal society. And you had your statesmen (like as in doing administrative work), and your politicians, and your generals, and your grunts. And I was pretty much a grunt. That was my role. And all the different kingdoms were jockeying for limited land and resources, but also for prestige. My stories from the game aren't things any of my characters have done, but rather things I've done. Like whupping ass while severely outnumbered, or running straight into the entire group of enemies and back out again, and managing to survive the encounter. Or the time we (the guild I was in and I) secretly started a brand-new guild under an anonymous name and created all-new characters to get away from our superior nation, because we'd just merged with them and we wanted out.
 
That might not sound appealing to you, because it seems that you prefer to build worlds of fiction, where as mine was sort of just like an alternate reality I'd visit. But I enjoyed it. 
 
Also, as I said, RPing did happen. Not really much at all towards the end, but there were still a couple of guys who held it up. Hell, I think there was still an entire guild that RPed elves up until like the last year. They're out there. It's just hard to find them because of how low the numbers are. Also kind of the problem is that RPing over voice chat is a little too close to LARPing, though.
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RPG elements is different from RPG. COD is a shooter with RPG elements. Borderlands is an RPG with Shooter elements (in terms of gameplay.) I think an RPG is also defined by how the game progresses, where you go from place to place, learn new things, and go to new places with new abilities (to put it very, very simply.) In that sense, Borderlands has shooter gameplay elements, but progresses very much like an RPG, making it so. Also, I didn't include leveling up in here, because there are ways to fill the quota I filled out without that. The character progression in Zelda is a good example. There are no games with levelling up in the series, except for one game in the series, yet the progression and travelling are definitely part of the gameplay experience.  Of course genres are going to evolve, we just have to adapt with them.
I think you also sometimes have to trust intuition. If you think it's an RPG, it's an RPG. Sometimes there are grey areas, as there are for most things. As to wether their dead, however: do JRPGs for the most part fall in to the nicheiest of niche? Yes. But are there exceptions? Yes. Pokemon is going to sell fucktons, and will for a long time. Wester stylized RPGs are progressing at a quicker rate. Taking inspirations from other genres is a good way to see what works and what doesn't

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Example1013

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@Punk1984 said:
" @example1013: if you want a real single player D&D experience I would suggest something more like Oblivion. Norrath is just kind of a Diablo clone. Not that that is bad, but it isn't D&D. A big part of RPGs in general is a player guided storyline, kind of like a choose your own adventure. Horrath and Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance are just kind of hit monsters until the boss then get loot and go to next area.  Actually thinking of Oblivion that kind of blows the definition of FPS out of the water. Oblivion is in First Person Perspective and you can shoot in it. BAM! My mind is blown. "
Yeah. When I said it's "like D&D", I was referring to the setting, weapons, creatures, class archetypes, and statistic structures (outside of combat). Obviously the gameplay is not even close to D&D, because the only "die check" is on damage and critical chance. Plus there really aren't any out-of-combat skills. Also, there's mana and stamina (neither of which are in D&D, at least not as I've played it). Oddly enough, I've never played Diablo. 
 
Oblivion is extremely fun, and I guess it is closer to D&D than Champions and all those games, at least overall. I'm currently trying to do third person only, though. I'm pretty much just going into first person whenever I need to make sure I don't steal something.
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Stats/levels/experience and RPGs are not mutually exclusive. Unless the R stands for Roll instead of Role.
 
The next time somebody says "RPG elements" when they mean character stats, I will defecate on their face.

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LCom

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@example1013: Actually, I'm not an RPG'er in the least. The first time I played Mass Effect 1, the person who owned it was watching me play and took it away from be because "I was doing it wrong" by not talking to anyone and was just going around shooting. UT2k4 was the home I grew up in. 
 
And honestly, I like telling stories of the things I've done too. John Woo-esque gun duels on top of burning buildings clashing Sigfried against Nightmare in an eternal struggle, every swipe meeting my opponent's perfect parry. These moments tend to grip me far more then most long drawn out stories. To date, the only RPG (whoops, forgetting my whole argument) I've beat is Chrono Cross, and even then only by way of a Gameshark letting me breeze through it. 
 
So I'm definitely not saying that what you're describing isn't a valid or worthwhile experience. I am saying that it's not something inherent to RPG's. You can have that experience in just about any kind of game, only limited by your taste in mechanics. You seem to like social dynamics, I like to shoot people (even if they're bots).
 
So this still questions what the experience of an RPG is. What I come to expect from an RPG is the conflict between the player and the environment, both fighting over where the player's character should exist in the game world. But this just leads back to my original point that this could really be added to any type of game, questioning if and RPG can be a type of game onto itself!
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Punk1984

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@floodiastus: My point was that D&D has rules set up to codify interactions in the game. Things like dice rolls to settle arguments between players and such. As far as it being famous for "Hack N' Slash" it isn't there are games that are famous for hack n' slash. Braunstein was a addendum to Napoleonic war gaming more in line with a 1960s era SimCity than with what we consider an RPG. Blackmoor was the first campaign setting published for D&D and before that existed as Dave Arnenson personal fantasy based war gaming world. Dungeons and Dragons was the first published Role Playing Game. It introduced many if not all the elements you are taking for granted. I'm not here to convince you play D&D week in and week out. I'm only here to say you should pull your head out of whatever hole you've got it shoved in and not bad mouth something that actually gives you joy.
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Example1013

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@LCom: Well, what I can tell you is that I know an RPG when I see one, and they're still out there being made. 
 
EDIT: RPGs also tend to involve a Hero's Journey of some sort (or at least most of it).
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floodiastus

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@Punk1984 said:
" @floodiastus: My point was that D&D has rules set up to codify interactions in the game. Things like dice rolls to settle arguments between players and such. As far as it being famous for "Hack N' Slash" it isn't there are games that are famous for hack n' slash. Braunstein was a addendum to Napoleonic war gaming more in line with a 1960s era SimCity than with what we consider an RPG. Blackmoor was the first campaign setting published for D&D and before that existed as Dave Arnenson personal fantasy based war gaming world. Dungeons and Dragons was the first published Role Playing Game. It introduced many if not all the elements you are taking for granted. I'm not here to convince you play D&D week in and week out. I'm only here to say you should pull your head out of whatever hole you've got it shoved in and not bad mouth something that actually gives you joy. "
No need to get personal dude, im just saying there is a misconception that RPGs are all about dicerolls and leveling.