People will deck out thier PC with the latest and greatest but can over look sound (which, in all fairness, people might not care that much about)

It might be worth taking a look at your DAC - Digital-to-analog converter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter

As the name suggests, this converts the digital audio/sound/etc on your PC to the analog that comes out of your headset/speaker/etc. This plays a HUGE part in the quality of audio you'll get from your PC. Clearly the source matters too. Crap in/Crap out now matter what the DAC is :)

Most (all?) built in sound cards don't have the greatest DACs (not shocking) and same the goes for USB headsets. Of course having a "bad" DAC" doesn't mean it sounds bad (very subjective) but i does mean the audio can be different from the source. ie, one can get DACs that will give you "bit perfect" with the source. I'd suggest that closer you get to the source the "better".

Another problem with the onboard stuff is you can pickup noise from the motherboard. The real impact is after the DAC converts it to analog. It is the same way that when getting cables for digital stuff (network, hdmi, sub, interconnects, coax, etc) unless you get pure crap it doesn't really matter what you use. But for analog stuff - you want good cables. They are much more sensitive (and with no error correction). So the onboard card might be good for digital out, but not the best for analog out.

What options do I have?

sound cards with good DACs. There doesn't seem to be many. Maybe M-audio or HT Omega. But they are PCI. When looking at cards check to see what DAC they have. Sound blaster cards aren't known for good DACs (still better than the onboard stuff though)

Stand Alone DAC. These can be VERY costly - when one enters the world of the audiophile - budgets go out the window. But hey, we are gaming so getting a 4k DAC would be.. crazy :) (I also think at some point it becomes a bit of the emperors new clothes with audiophile gear). You can find good untis for the cost of a sound card. $100-$200-ish. These Units are greats. You can connect via optial or coax out or USB. You can do "bit perfect" with these.

I'd suggest something like the HRT Music streamer II (USB only) http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/products/. It might also be worth looking at the Asus box Xonar Essence One ( http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/Audio_Cards/Xonar_Essence_One/) - there are some great reviews for the HRT, but i've never seen a audiophile review of the asus. There are clearly a ton more of these - research :) sites like Head-fi.com or avsforum.com are good places to start.

HDMI out: It is great. You can convert whatever you playing to bit perfect PCM steams out to a receiver. Of course you'll want that receiver to have a good DAC too. If you spent a few grand on it - it most likely does. If it only costs a few $100 having a stand alone DAC might be better. So PC -> DAC -> receiver. A Home Theater PC (HTPC) -> HDMI -> receiver -> sourrond sound is pretty sweet :)

What about an AMP?

well yes, you need an amp. These are also one of those items that can be very costly. But you can also get good powered speakers. Or if part of a HTPC setup your receiver should have a good amp in it. I don't really have any suggestions. They all seem crazy costly - even the "cheap ones" - but do check where you get the advice from. A gaming or techsite might not be the best. I like to hunt around audiophile sites and look for what they think are good and cheap.

I read a post a few days ago that i found very useful about AMP vs Digital scaling. http://www.head-fi.org/t/527095/new-audiolab-dac/255#post_8033649

[quote]This DAC's built-in volume control attenuates the signal in the digital domain by scaling the digital signal. Full volume (i.e. zero dB) should retain full resolution. The more you attenuate the signal the more resolution is lost. Small amounts are OK, but a point is reached where the signal will become noticeably distorted. This is due to the reduced "bit resolution" by the digital scaling. This DAC uses an internal resolution of 32 bits, so attenuating by -48dB would reduce it to about 24 bits, but every -6dB loses another bit (approximately)of resolution and also drives the analog output closer to the noise floor.

The worst case scenario would be using heaps of digital attenuation to counter an excess of gain in, say, the amplifier. The signal would first be attenuated (and distorted) too much at the DAC outputs, then all that noise and distortion would be magnified by the high-gain amplifier. This shows up the importance of correct matching of components in the audio chain, as well as matching signal levels for best performance.

If you are using this DAC as a "one-box solution" for headphone listening (i.e. DAC and amp) and you have particularly sensitive headphones, then you may find that you have to use too much digital attenuation all the time.

As I understand it, you can configure this DAC to operate at full output levels (like a normal DAC) without using it's digital attenuator. This could then be fed into a normal amplifier which has an analogue attenuator (volume control) that may give a more balanced solution (YMMV). It is good that you have the option to use it either way, so you can discover what works best for you. [/quote]

ie, you want to control the volume via the AMP and not the DAC or the digital source (your PC)

I personally went the AMP route (drank some of the audiophile coolaid) but i just read of review of speakers and they look pretty good and because they powered speakers you don't have to worry about an AMP. (i also like cnet's Steve guttenberg's reivews) http://www.head-fi.org/t/589057/emotiva-pro-airmotiv4-loudspeakers-review

What about mutliplayer gaming? Mic?

*shrug* :) i normally just break out a good usb headset with a mic built in :) I'm sure there are better options. Maybe a one ear usb headset with a mic that won't pick up the speakers?

At the end of the day the best option for me was USB DAC -> AMP -> speakers/nice headphones and the HTPC has a nice receiver.

Anyone else go for the stand alone DAC? suggestions? pointers?

blah blah.. no one is reading this anyway :) But if you do, input is welcome. Sound is crazy subjective and all the verbs used to discribe equipment on audiophile sites are not very quantifiable either. "fruity, warm, etc... " =D Getting a good DAC is key if you do care about good audio.

Great. Well, I don't have a great speaker setup, so I don't see a need to invest in a sound card. Either way, it'll sound like ass. I'll wait, then when I decide to drop on speakers, I'll give an actual sound card some thought.

Honestly, though, I don't find the default DAC to be exceptionally bad; certainly, it's not McIntosh or Wolfson levels of sound quality, but it's passable. Seeing as how audio clarity and fidelity is a really big issue for me (I can't stand listening to music in cars without at least a Harmon Kardon Logic7), I could foresee myself upgrading in the future. Just not quite yet.

TL;DR: Cheap Asian semi-audiophile, can't warrant dropping money on something that'll still sound inferior without a full system upgrade.

You're that crazy man with like 12 video cards in his toaster. How do you afford all that stuff? Selling drugs?

Now to the stuff relevant to your post:

What if I exclusively use a headset for audio? Should that influence my choice to use or not use a DAC?

I only listen to my music via my record player, so a DAC is not nescesary.

@Ravenlight: the digital to audio conversion will always happen. There is a DAC some place that is doing it. www.head-fi.com is a site full of headphone nut jobs :) like 1-2k for freak'n headphones!

If they are really nice headphones (plug.. of course.. if it is a usb headset than the headset it using its own "bad" DAC) i'd want a good DAC/AMP.

here is a sample list from a site that I trust:

AMP (headphone): http://www.whathifi.com/search/apachesolr_search/?filters=tid%3A349%20type%3Ahcmproduct%20is_field_star_rating%3A5&solrsort=created%20desc&retain-filters=1

DAC: http://www.whathifi.com/search/apachesolr_search/?filters=tid%3A1182%20type%3Ahcmproduct%20is_field_star_rating%3A5&solrsort=created%20desc&retain-filters=1

but honestly, i'd look at the Asus box if you don't want to spend a lot.

What headphones are you using?

@chrismafuchris: Do you use a pre-amp? i've never used it (nor really tried to understand its use). Normally one uses them for phono or tape (analog) sourced stuff... but then do you use an amp? that seems over amp kill :)

I'm not an audio snob, so I'm perfectly fine with just generic sound off the board and a cheap headset. I'm happy being oblivious too, as that's one less thing I need to spend money on.

As an aside to things people forget about when building a new PC. Most people just think of what goes in the tower, but I think the stuff that goes around it is just as important. Don't be afraid to spend the little extra to get a really comfy chair to sit in while at the desk. No matter how great that machine is, if your ass hurts while playing it you won't be playing on it that much. Same goes for a mouse, keybaord and a good mouse pad. Spend the little extra to get the one that feels right for you.

@Zurv said:

@Ravenlight: the digital to audio conversion will always happen. There is a DAC some place that is doing it. www.head-fi.com is a site full of headphone nut jobs :) like 1-2k for freak'n headphones!

If they are really nice headphones (plug.. of course.. if it is a usb headset than the headset it using its own "bad" DAC) i'd want a good DAC/AMP.

here is a sample list from a site that I trust:

AMP (headphone): http://www.whathifi.com/search/apachesolr_search/?filters=tid%3A349%20type%3Ahcmproduct%20is_field_star_rating%3A5&solrsort=created%20desc&retain-filters=1

DAC: http://www.whathifi.com/search/apachesolr_search/?filters=tid%3A1182%20type%3Ahcmproduct%20is_field_star_rating%3A5&solrsort=created%20desc&retain-filters=1

but honestly, i'd look at the Asus box if you don't want to spend a lot.

What headphones are you using?

Thanks for the relevant linkage, duder. I'll poke around those URLs tomorrow at work ;)

Right now, I'm using a decent-quality $100 Logitech wireless headset and it performs adequately but is getting old. I'd really like to replace it with some Astro A40s. I'm on the fence about whether or not I should get a dedicated sound card to go along with it. I haven't really done much research into how much improved general sound quality would be with a card vs straight out of the mobo.

i bought an over priced GT 460 from a local SHOPPE and then shortly after realized i could get a better version for cheaper.

Ive got a a pair of Astro A40s with a mixAmp running from the optical out on the motherboard..

Dolby certify them as 7.1 surround.. I can say that machine gun fire, flying over your head in Battlefield, sounds incredible..

Ive got Bose on ear for music at work, and some Shure SE215 to walk with.. Astro A40s are well worth the money if you game alot with headphones.

:)

Just my $0.02: if you're an audiophile and care about signal degradation then you'd be insane to waste money in any audio card for your PC with the small exception (as Vista/Win7 killed hardware support and so everyone ensured their software 3D audio stack was competent rather than building a whole new hardware accelerated only path to 3D audio, it is small) of accelerating the 3D sound calculations for those without the multi-core CPU to handle that computation.

You want your precise bit-stream to get as far into the system as possible with no changes. So there should be no DAC in the audio path inside your computer. Ideally you will use HDMI (and the sound card built into the GPU) to output an uncompressed multi-channel signal to your amp which is where you spend your money is owning a good DAC that then sends the analogue driver signal to the individual speakers over nice thick wires (not expensive, just thick, metal is incredible at having free electrons and that's what you need from speaker wire, unless you have coiled power cables or the like you need to pass over and you really shouldn't have your system set up like that if you care about audio and no shielding is perfect).

If you don't care about audio all that much (but still want to be able to hear if the car is going to overtake on your left or right rear through audio alone / know in which directions someone just got shot nearby then a TOSlink (optical) output from a Dolby HT compatible motherboard onboard sound is also a great solution. Dolby Digital 5.1 is good enough that we used it for movies (DTS is available for real-time encoding if you have a DTS Connect compatible audio chip, but I'm not sure any motherboards ship with one and the quality difference isn't that much) and the audio subsystem works out the per-channel audio for 3D as normal (or more accurately receives the per-channel signal the CPU computes) and compresses this with a real-time DD5.1 algorithm before shoving it down the cable. DD5.1 is a lossy compression system (like jpeg, ogg, mp3 etc) so you do lose fidelity over uncompressed audio at the conversion (like mp3 it is a compression system designed to strip out the data you cannot hear to save bandwidth so most people will never know) but it is digital so the path down the cable doesn't introduce noise/static/error. The amp decodes the signal back to a 6 channel audio and pushes that through the DAC. The advantage of this over 3 wires and analogue audio is you don't have to spend money on a discrete audio card to get a passable DAC on your computer, you're not using an analogue signal and so have to worry about what signal degradation is going on between the PC and amp in the wire, and you've only got one wire (yay) and that is carrying the most popular multi-channel encoded signal in the world so it forced you to buy an amp that can decode it (so your movies will also benefit from having the exact 0s and 1s of the DD5.1 stream on the disc transported as far as the DAC on the amp without any tampering/degradation).

Whatever, man. Onboard sound's (Realtek) where it's at! I recently connected my old Soundblaster Live, and although it was good, Realtek was still a bit better.

Though I'm also using $40 headphones....

I have a Xonar DX for Dolby Headphone with a pair of Sennheisher HD595s which are nearly 4 years old. All fine so far and they sound excellent.

When I decide to play PC games on my TV I switch the sound output to my Onkyo amp and speakers (5.1), so I'm pretty covered on all bases.