Bombin' the A.M. With Scoops and the Wolf: 08/22/2014

I love this website and I trust the staff's opinion on things, please explain to us what the big deal was if its worth mentioning in half measures on a Live stream its worth explaining in full at least in writing. I'll check out pats blog, Thanks for the content though =)

I'm glad that someone out there felt a little bit better about all this ridiculous crap that is going on after viewing it - I feel like the more people view this video, the more it gets people to put the conversation into the right direction, and away from Phil Fish as a person.

And don't be mistaken, I'm not trying to be some kind of Phil Fish "apologist". The point this video makes is very clear - not I, not any of us (most likely) know Phil Fish in person.

And what if there are people out there that "cannot have fun" because of the things we are turning a blind eye to? Do we just ignore them? Pretend that they or their problems don't exist because hey, "we're just trying to have fun"?

As a whole with video games, just because something is irrelevant to us, doesn't mean it is irrelevant to some other people - where in fact sometimes, our "just having fun" is directly at the cost of a minority or other group who are also "just trying to have fun". Contextually, whether that cost is racial/gender/sexual orientation/geographical/etc., it wouldn't be right to pay that price for our own amusement, which at times can even be construed as "comforting ignorance".

Please don't take my words as finger pointing or accusatory, I'm just trying to say that Giant Bomb is meant to be an inclusive place (and Jeff and all the editors have said this in some shape or form) - there is room to have both things, and in fact all things in this matter.

I came here to talk about game, but by the time I got to the bottom of the comments, I forgot I was on Giant Bomb.

@anjon: Fish essentially was talking about his support of Quinn after the internet turned against her when her ex posted stuff about her. Then a bunch of 4chan or someone hacked Polytron's site and Paypal account leading Fish to decide to sell the Fez IP.

I agree with Tomtomthepirate, I could care less about the personal lives of game devs. I get that sites like GB find coverage of behind the scenes fascinating and I get it..for aspiring devs, that is interesting. But for developer's own integrity or even quality of life, I'm starting to think that they should become more detached from gaming related social media and perhaps the 'gamer' community in general. For some reason anonymous people out there think the coming and goings of these developers have some sort of equity in their lives and 'bringing people down a peg' started to turn into a twisted virtual bloodsport. I'd love to see game coverage get back to what's fun about games and less about industry personalities.

While the petty harassment(Ie. death threats, name calling, spamming burgers and fries, etc.) is obviously uncalled for and should definitely be condemned, it's still pretty disappointing to see people I respected use that as an excuse to completely dismiss and hand-wave the very real issues pertaining to all this(nepotism, cronyism, censorship, hypocrisy and more) that reasonable people have brought up. Not just Patrick and Alex either, but many other game journalists who obviously have a vested interest in keeping her afloat. Some who even directly contribute to her financially by way of Patreon donations.

Also, you guys all seem to ignore the harassment from your side of the camp too. People, including women, politely asking questions and wanting answers are being called misogynists, MRAs, sexists and more for trying to bring this to light. It's pretty sad when Totalbiscuit comes out and says something pretty reasonable and neutral about the situation and then gets screamed at by Phil Fish and other supporters for it. Is this really worth protecting and throwing away your integrity for?

Please don't just lump people with valid concerns in with the trolls. It only makes you appear like you have something to hide and will only make that hole you've dug for yourselves that much harder to climb out of when it finally caves in.

Oh, and IB4 ANIME AVATAR, because that's apparently another counter-argument these people think invalidates all discussion on the subject.

My qualm about "gaming issues" is that if I engage in the (admittedly horrible) social media conversation about it, I will be be berated and called a bigot or told to die or something. The only option for me is to ignore it as best I can. Besides, it's not like the "gaming community" is going to solve the problems that plague other aspects of life. Politicians are just as, and probably more, scummy as the groups and people of this last week... and they run the country/world. Sure I am being a super downer about everything, but the only winning move is to not play. If what totalbiscuit said is treated with such disdain, then what the hell could I say? I'd rather just be a good duder to the people who matter in my life and hope that others will do the same. At least that might eventually get somewhere.

patrick has them on his youtube account.

@foxmulder: Wow... that's a lot more serious than I thought it was... That seems like more of an "I should call the police" instead of "I should make a rash decision on the internet" kind of situation... In fact, I think both Fish and Quinn should think about taking legal action in these cases.

Getting treated like children who don't understand. Getting shouted down when someone who disagrees gets a voice powerful enough to get noticed.

A crowd with no voice demanding answers. They are not evil. They see something wrong and are treated like children.

The real privilege is having a soapbox and misusing it, while kicking others off of theirs.

I'm glad Giant Bomb didn't cover anything about this. The games industry and games journalism shouldn't be fucking celebrity tabloid bullshit, it should be about games and the news related to games. Newspapers don't spend a week's worth of articles attacking other newspapers about their lack of integrity or whatever, they publish the news and hope the public can see the distinction.

Literally nothing about this story needed to be covered. Once people learned about it, people should make the distinction themselves about whether the people accused could be trusted or not. And that should be the end of it.

We don't need articles and discussions and stories about people being dicks on the internet, because we all know that happens. It feels like every single time something like this happens, sites upload things saying things like "The industry has a sexism problem" "why the games industry needs to grow up" and other such nonsense, and no one has said anything new on the topic in years, they just mad-lib in whatever controversy is current as their example. Respected sites lowering themselves to covering bullshit like this is just as childish to me as the assholes on Twitter attacking people. Literally no other industry lets shit like this bother them.

Regarding Maddens "timing the snap" feature, I believe NCAA Football 07 was the first football title to feature that, HOWEVER it wasn't quite the same thing. In NCAA if you pulled the right stick down right after the snap all your defenders would focus on stopping the run, if you flicked it up they'd all go back into coverage. This made the play action plays worth calling, and an added real life football strategy of establishing the run to set up play action. Hitting the right stick down on a play action pass almost always resulted in broken coverage. Loved it!

It's the one feature I miss the most in footballs games these days. My style of play lent it self perfectly well with NCAA Football 07, sadly that one feature never made it into any other title.

I very much do not have the energy to talk about this issue anymore, but I just wanted to mention that death threats are not petty harassment, and very serious. Same with the posting of inappropriate photographs for shaming, or name calling in a way that targets her gender specifically. It's such a sensitive issue. Not to mention it is tough to demand accountability from journalists, when evidence suggests that journalist's accountability wasn't compromised.

I think it's important to recognize that many of the threats Zoe, Phil, and other indie developers are getting are not petty. They are very real. While answers are important, recognize the circumstances. Her personal life was actively broadcast and insulted by an entire community. That is, in my opinion, the bigger story here.

That's why GB isn't talking about it. Even if legitimate issues are raised, you can't help but look at it and shake your head and sigh. The credibility of the accusations is overthrown by the intense harassment and threats. It's the bigger, more important story, and giving it air-time is equivalent to recognizing that there are "two sides" to that issue. (NOTE: Not two sides to Zoe Quinn's story, but two sides to the harassment.) There are not two sides. It is wrong. Discussion isn't needed, but recognizing that it happened is. Which is what Pat/Alex did at the beginning of this video.

I am upset with how the game industry and its journalists seem to be handling it. Like it was mentioned in an earlier post most of them seem to be dismissing it as THE INTERNET IS EVIL!!! Which i think is extremely childish way of looking at this whole situation and is almost (if not just) as bad as the internet's reaction to the situation. I mean these peoples jobs are basically so ingrained with the internet and its culture that just brushing it off as the internet is evil is absolutely absurd. Edit: Was going through some of Phil Fish's stuff. Guy's if you are a game designer/maker/whatever prospect, don't give up. Phil is extremely over dramatic.

You guys need to report on this.

I love you all... so, so much. Every one of you. I actually love Phil Fish too. I love Zoe and her willingness to talk about her depression so openly (as a depressed person myself). Nobody deserves this.

But I feel COMPLETELY in the dark, and like a poster above me mentioned... I feel EXTREMELY misinformed because I'm having to piece this story together from around the internet now. I am having to wade through some of the most vile and toxic arguments I've ever seen on the internet... and I've seen some shit.

I depend on you guys for intelligent, transparent, and as-unbiased-as-possible coverage of the video game industry. You CANNOT just not talk about this because it involves people you know. Again, a poster above me mentioned. This has been happening a lot lately with recent ugly events in video games, and it has only slightly bothered me, but this seems like a big deal.

Let's be clear, I'm talking about the hacking stuff - the personal stuff shouldn't be a part of this mess.

But Patrick even mentioned Phil and Zoe's names.... and then at the end says that our thoughts should go out to "the people dealing with crazy shit...."

.....Who??? Are there other people involved in this situation? I don't know who to send my thoughts to! At least say their names, because YES, they do need some good vibes thrown their way (I love you Patrick don't hate me).

(There's some hyperbole in this post - obviously it's your site, and you can run it however you want, but.... this feels weird. I hope this isn't the sort of comment that needs to be moderated. I just found out about all of this at once and it's hard to know what to think of any of it.)

@dr_mantas: This seems highly dramatic. You are not defined by what ONE of 50,000 celebrities in the world say about 'you' - much less any of them. Worry about weather or not your mother or close friends treat you that way - not some guy that nobody is forcing you to like. ONE out of 50,000 soapboxes that are misused every day - by world leaders, human rights activists, religious leaders...

Is this really the thing? THIS is the thing you need answers about?

@deadlydog: I'd say the exact same shit man if my life was practically ruined like this. Surely the comments made after such a life-altering event does not define a person?

@yohosie: You misunderstand what I meant by 'petty harassment'. Here's the definition I was going for:

5. showing meanness of spirit: a petty revenge.

not

1. trivial; trifling; inessential: petty details.

Also, your post is a perfect example of what I was just talking about. Using harassment, misogyny, anime avatars, etc. as an excuse to deflect criticism and ignore arguments made by reasonable, non-trolls who are just trying to talk about real issues that are happening in the industry. It's pretty much like talking to a brick wall.

No one denies that the harassment is happening and most of us know that it is shitty. Many people, even Eron himself, are calling for it to stop because we know the other side can and does use it as a shield to avoid having to make valid counter-arguments. But being humans, obviously not everyone is going to listen or care. We can't police everyone on the internet or magically make people not be jerks all of a sudden. That's just unreasonable and you know it. Basically, what I'm saying is: We are not responsible for how random jerks on the internet act and we shouldn't be treated like we are. That's the parent's and, maybe, the school's job. And this isn't an excuse or anything, but you guys should read some of the tweets from her and her clique, just for perspective. It can get pretty ugly on both sides.

If they don't want to talk about it fine. Even with the mass censorship happening on most major gaming sites, we still have IRC, GFAQs, The Escapist(of all places), youtubers, fringe gaming sites and other places to discuss it at/with, which I encourage anyone who cares to take a look at. It just looks bad when you cover her as much as this site does, this happens and then censor all discussion on the matter, while also passive-aggressively tweeting about it after saying you want no part of it.

Anyway, check out some of the videos floating around, Eron's blog or maybe even the original blog post he released if you have time. Check out the vod of the stream that TFYC did after their campaign got hacked, where he shot the shit and answered questions for 4hrs while waiting for IGG to get back to him. Etc. There's a lot of info to sift through out there that anyone can read which enables you to decide how you feel about this yourself. The problem is most people don't seem to be aware of more than one side of the story, and these sites seem to want to keep it that way.

I will at least give GB a little credit now for not deleting these comments speaking about it yet.(but I hope no one's offended if I screenshot them just in case :P)

Glossing over the very real issues brought up by this controversy by focusing on the incredibly inappropriate actions of a few people is irresponsible.

You can't dismiss criticism by associating the worst, smallest aspects of the gaming community with the concerns held by the majority. I'm disappointed that your mention of the situation is so misleading and one-sided.

I was going to respond some more but whooooley crap the more I look into this it's just... I feel broken. I've looked at so much hate this evening. I have changed my tune a little bit on thinking that GB should report this I guess, I mean it would have saved me from sifting through this mess but I suppose that's it.

Just a couple of quick thoughts:

@drzhivago: - While I was disappointed that I wasn't given a basic idea of WTF is going on by two news guys I trust (and no trust lost, it's just that I'd rather have heard about all of this from them), I don't think they necessarily 'glossed' over the issues or picked a 'side'. It's really too early to report on any of this story now that I've gone through everything.

- The other part about all of this that I really don't get is saying that the indie scene is 'incestuous'... um, of course it is? Every creative/entertainment industry in America is. LOTS of industries are about the people you know. It's called NETWORKING and it's been around for centuries. You meet people in your industry, you strike up conversations, you talk about your passions, and you find the people you like working with. It's a smart way of finding succesful working relationships. Fuck everyone yelling on twitter about the incestual indie scene, they have no clue what they're talking about.

Yes, I'm aware of the part where it allegedly extends into games journalism, but thats a completely different issue. People are wrapping them up as one and the same, adding another layer of mud to this shitpile. And anyway, aren't we all here at Giant Bomb because we love how GB can step over those boundaries but still remain a voice we can trust through their transparency and disclosure..... right? I mean isn't that why we are here? BECAUSE GB is so close to devs and therefore gets us awesome and interesting coverage?

- Lastly, this thread isn't THAT bad. I saw some shit tonight.

@fapathy: My comment was certainly deleted :\ It seems the rumors about only comments critical of Zoe being deleted were correct.

EDIT: Actually looking back through the thread it looks like people who mentioned specific events were mostly deleted, so that's probably the criteria.

I guess an edited version of my previous comment without the events is "You could write an article for her and piss off the people against her, you could write an article against her and piss off the people for her. People have tried to write balanced articles and it has pissed people off even still."

That's technically not discussing anything but "whether writing an article is appropriate" so maybe this one will stay.

@tomtomthepirate: I came to this thread late, but my God you're being overly dramatic here. GB has had these relationships with devs since day 1 (look at how far back Harmonix and GB go), the Bastion stuff was a special case because of Greg literally being their boss back in the day, and how close they were during the development because of Building the Bastion. E3 after hours goes back to 2010, and a lot of those guys were clearly "friends of the site" even back then. Nothing has changed over the years, it's just that this whole thing (SOCIAL ISSUES!!!!) is colouring your view on it.

Oh, what happened in the exciting world of trivial gaming events, I haven't read my "things no human being should bother reading" blog today.

Did some no name person on the internet call another no name person on the internet a bad word ?

Iron ya damn shirts, Navarro

@freedomtown: I understand where you're coming from but this whole issue is far from trivial, it's an escalation of a lot of smaller abuses amping up to incredible proportions. Peoples lives may have been ruined (may have - everyone relax). Don't you want the industry we love to be free of this kind of shit?

The only statement worth making about this whole business is that there's no solid proof either way, and that the response has been disgusting. Patrick and Alex made half that statement right at the start because the other part is so obvious with even a modicum of critical thinking.

The material that is currently being used as a flimsy excuse for harassment is easily fabricated, and released by someone who has clear malicious motivations.

Calling for calm on his part is meaningless and at best a face saving measure. He knew exactly what would happen, because it's happened before.

There's a great reason GB isn't talking about it, or facilitating detailed discussion about it, which is the same reason most sites aren't. It is a personal issue, affecting only the people involved.

It should have stayed that way, but it didn't, and as a result, we've been subjected to a huge wave of bullshit. There are tiny chunks of legitimate concern buried in there, like chunks of corn, but they're chunks that GB has addressed before, on the podcast and on live shows.

GB has close ties to plenty of developers. As many people have pointed out it's always been that way. Personally, I agree with the guys that that is a far more interesting dynamic than what used to be the norm, which was that editors would have no contact at all with anyone but PR people.

Zoe Quinn is not a special case. She hasn't received any coverage that hasn't been afforded also to a tonne of other developers. The only reason people are calling her or other indies out is because they disagree with them, or feel that their concerns aren't worth broadcasting.