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Giant Bomb Presents

Giant Bomb Presents: The Bumpy Road Towards Games for Everyone

Designer Samantha Kalman was on a PAX panel called "Queers in Gaming: Gamer vs. Gaymer," in which the panelists tried to explore the challenges of making more inclusionary games. Before that panel, we chatted about the current state of the dialogue.

Giant Bomb Presents is giantbomb.com's home for interviews, previews, and more.

Sep. 4 2013

Posted by: Patrick

262 Comments

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Blaqueronin

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@leebmx: @whatisdelicious: Those are fair points. I just felt like some people might have been too dismissive of the interview,or they were trying to subvert the conversation about inclusion and diversity.

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Serker

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Edited By Serker

i think the content of games is so fucking unimportant.
i thought this interview would be about providing video games globally, not catering to people who already have video games but aren't pleased with them. I don't shoot people in my everyday life but it doesn't mean I can't play a video game with shooting in it. irrelevant topic.

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Milkman

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Edited By Milkman

@soapy86: It's very easy for you to say that you don't care if characters in games are like you when all of them already are.

No one is saying that every character should be gay or transsexual or whatever. Simply that games that do include and talk about these kind of issues (and do it well) are important and more of them should exist. Is that really so bad?

A lot of these comments really suck.

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cabrit_sans_cor

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Why the fuck did I read these comments?

Now I want to stab my eyes out with plastic forks and throw them at random passers-by.

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samanthazero

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I really appreciate the discussion that's started to take shape here, and I want to thank everyone for sharing their opinions. I agree that the panel name "gamer vs gaymer" suggests an antagonistic relationship between "us" and "them", and I'm going to give the panel organizer that feedback.

I also want to say that I think making a game that meaningfully represents all groups would be incredibly hard. I love character editors in games that allow you to choose your gender, skin color, and even weight. I'm also not suggesting that games like Call of Duty need to be dramatically altered to include queer characters. I am suggesting that creators should create more games that feature queer characters because queer people will really appreciate that. There are a lot of non-queer people who would also enjoy games with more diverse characters. Not everybody is going to want to play those games, and not everybody has to. I would guess that most Giant Bomb regulars probably don't want to play farmville on facebook, but there are thousands of people who do!

To me, diverse representation in games is an enabler for people to see how similar we are, even though many of us choose (consciously or not) to apply all these different labels to ourselves and others. It's about building mutual respect for people who are similar and different from ourselves, and allow us to talk about our experiences to find common ground. Help us all understand each other a little better.

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deactivated-5a46aa62043d1

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@milkman said:

@soapy86: It's very easy for you to say that you don't care if characters in games are like you when all of them already are.

No one is saying that every character should be gay or transsexual or whatever. Simply that games that do include and talk about these kind of issues (and do it well) are important and more of them should exist. Is that really so bad?

I never said it was bad. In fact, I think my other post would imply the opposite. It's just that I personally don't enjoy being pandered to, and I can't really understand the perspective of people who do.

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leebmx

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@soapy86 said:

@leebmx said:

@soapy86 said:

This bizarre need that some people have for fictional characters to look, act, and think like they do, and even share their own sexual characteristics of all things seems so strange and foreign to me. Not once have I ever thought, "If the protagonist in this game isn't like me, then I'm not playing it!" I can't understand that perspective at all.

The main character in a game can be a man, a woman, something in between, an animal, an alien, or a colorful geometric shape. It makes no difference to me as long as the game is enjoyable.

Are you a straight man? If so then the reason that thought has never crossed your mind is because the vast majority of game protagonists are if not male, then exclusively straight (I can't think of a gay one anyway - unless you play your character gay in Mass Effect, but the game won't acknowledge it).

Its not that people want every character to be gay or have the same sexuality as them, its just that if you have a medium which hardly ever represents what you feel you are it is quite easy to feel left out. I don't know your background butsuppose you are a white straight man and that every game released has a black lesbian protagonist. How would that make you feel?Probably that these games weren't meant for you. I think that is the dilemma that faces gay people and to a lesser extent women and racial groups other than white. Its just about making games feel as if they are for everyone, not about excluding any particular group.

Read my post again. I specifically say that I DON'T need every (or any) character to be like me.

I guess I have misunderstood your point then, apologies if this is the case. Which people are you refering to as having a bizzare need for fictional characters to act the same as they do. My impression was that this was a dig a people who are asking for more gay characters in games. But like I say apologies if this was not what you meant.

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TowerSixteen

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Edited By TowerSixteen

@samanthazero said:

I really appreciate the discussion that's started to take shape here, and I want to thank everyone for sharing their opinions. I agree that the panel name "gamer vs gaymer" suggests an antagonistic relationship between "us" and "them", and I'm going to give the panel organizer that feedback.

I also want to say that I think making a game that meaningfully represents all groups would be incredibly hard. I love character editors in games that allow you to choose your gender, skin color, and even weight. I'm also not suggesting that games like Call of Duty need to be dramatically altered to include queer characters. I am suggesting that creators should create more games that feature queer characters because queer people will really appreciate that. There are a lot of non-queer people who would also enjoy games with more diverse characters. Not everybody is going to want to play those games, and not everybody has to. I would guess that most Giant Bomb regulars probably don't want to play farmville on facebook, but there are thousands of people who do!

To me, diverse representation in games is an enabler for people to see how similar we are, even though many of us choose (consciously or not) to apply all these different labels to ourselves and others. It's about building mutual respect for people who are similar and different from ourselves, and allow us to talk about our experiences to find common ground. Help us all understand each other a little better.

Can I just remark how incredibly classy it is that you managed to draw the legitimate criticism out of the terrible nonsense in the comments? It would have been easy to have been so put off by the vitriol that the good points get lost, but you've managed to stay open-minded and polite in the face of it while still voicing your own opinion firmly. That doesn't happen often enough, and deserves kudos.

This kind of talk- reasoned, measured, non-hyperbolic, and especially not dealing in finger-pointing but in solutions- is really what the current discussion of diversity in gaming desperately needs, on all sides. Too much anger and in-your-face rhetoric is turning many people off the discussion, me included honestly, and I think that's a shame because it's an important issue.

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deactivated-5a46aa62043d1

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@leebmx said:

@soapy86 said:

@leebmx said:

@soapy86 said:

This bizarre need that some people have for fictional characters to look, act, and think like they do, and even share their own sexual characteristics of all things seems so strange and foreign to me. Not once have I ever thought, "If the protagonist in this game isn't like me, then I'm not playing it!" I can't understand that perspective at all.

The main character in a game can be a man, a woman, something in between, an animal, an alien, or a colorful geometric shape. It makes no difference to me as long as the game is enjoyable.

Are you a straight man? If so then the reason that thought has never crossed your mind is because the vast majority of game protagonists are if not male, then exclusively straight (I can't think of a gay one anyway - unless you play your character gay in Mass Effect, but the game won't acknowledge it).

Its not that people want every character to be gay or have the same sexuality as them, its just that if you have a medium which hardly ever represents what you feel you are it is quite easy to feel left out. I don't know your background butsuppose you are a white straight man and that every game released has a black lesbian protagonist. How would that make you feel?Probably that these games weren't meant for you. I think that is the dilemma that faces gay people and to a lesser extent women and racial groups other than white. Its just about making games feel as if they are for everyone, not about excluding any particular group.

Read my post again. I specifically say that I DON'T need every (or any) character to be like me.

I guess I have misunderstood your point then, apologies if this is the case. Which people are you refering to as having a bizzare need for fictional characters to act the same as they do. My impression was that this was a dig a people who are asking for more gay characters in games. But like I say apologies if this was not what you meant.

I guess it could be anyone really. If Mr. and/or Miss Genderqueer Equality for All Freedom Fighter finds fault with a game because it stars yet another straight white guy, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he and/or she is coming from.

However, it goes the other way too. If Mr. Straight White Male Evil Oppressor finds fault with a game because the protagonist is a gay black lady, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he's coming from.

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Vuud

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How to suck all the fun out of video games 101.

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TowerSixteen

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@soapy86 said:

I guess it could be anyone really. If Mr. and/or Miss Genderqueer Equality for All Freedom Fighter finds fault with a game because it stars yet another straight white guy, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he and/or she is coming from.

However, it goes the other way too. If Mr. Straight White Male Evil Oppressor finds fault with a game because the protagonist is a gay black lady, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he's coming from.

I agree with what your saying, but I'm curious- I don't believe that we should judge a game just for the race, gender, ect. of the protagonist, but it is true that games disproportionately feature straight white males. So, how does one take steps to move gaming toward a more diverse landscape without doing silly things like lobbing caustic criticism on good games that happen to have a straight white male protagonist? Can we at least agree that that diversity would be a good thing, even if its hard to see how to work toward it in a sensible manner?

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Edited By chose

I thought homosexuality was about that, sexuality. Games are about murdering people, not fucking them. Either way, most game characters could be gay, MasterChief, Luigi, the dude in the cave at the beginning of Zelda 1, most fighting game characters, that guy from Gears, that other guy from Pikmin, Mega Man might be robot-gay, Samus from Metroid, each and every unnamed athlete in every sport game since pong, the two Pong paddles, PacMan, Bomberman, and the list goes on.

What you don't see is effeminate man, gay or not. Games are about domination not submission. Self-confidence, mostly over-confidence, not self-doubt. Because games are made mostly by nerds, which is a derogatory term for intelligent losers, and hence games are about winning.

Samantha should realize the nerdiest of nerds, like the queerest of gays, rarely appear in video games if it ain't to be bullied or resented. Welcome to the animal kingdom Samantha!

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nsmb2_mario

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Edited By nsmb2_mario

@towersixteen: It's about economics - it's a safe bet to make games with a white-looking protagonist, and generally they act aggressively over-confident (not necessarily a straight-exclusive trait) and maybe a girlfriend or female love interest (which obviously is), because that's cool. It's a reflection of society as a whole, if being effeminate and having a boyfriend was seen as cool and having a gay black woman was the safest option for most games' target demographic, young men or boys, or if the demographic was different, then things would reflect that. Ultimately change in this area will come from how people vote with their pockets. While I agree Samantha is very humble and thoughtful, I can't help but stereotype this sort of mindset when all I hear about it completely ignores the simple and uncontroversial reason for why games are the way they are: money, not misogyny. The other m.

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Goldanas

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Edited By Goldanas

@samanthazero: Thanks for coming back again.

While I like character creators as well, I would still prefer a story with a fixed well-written homosexual male, or transgendered, or maybe something more off the beaten path because there are some people with greater sociological variances. And I don't want the story to revolve around the hardships of homosexuality or the specific engendered issue. I'd want the same story you'd see elsewhere, but with the differences (and similarities) of how that character would be in the same situations you find Joel or Nathan Drake.

Ultimately we are all people, and we're all going through a similar ordeal, just with our own caveats. We shouldn't let labels define us (or others), though their inspiration likely has some influence on our portrayal.

Of course, game creators are welcome to make whatever they want. If they don't want to make what I suggested above, fine by me. I have no right to tell them what they can and cannot make. They have their own stories to tell, and for some there's a limit to what kind of people they understand and can reasonably portray.

Likewise, if certain game creators do want to make those kinds of games, then they should, and they shouldn't let anything stop them. There are lots of artists out there right now telling their stories, and it's truly amazing to see what they've created on their own, or on limited to no budget, or with significant barriers in their way.

As I inferred before, I'm interested to see what your game eventually is. Not the puzzle game you're currently working on (I don't really care for those), but the one you mentioned in reference to this topic.

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@nsmb2_mario: I would argue that it's still misogeny, just misogeny on the part of society as a whole rather than game designers- if people are willing to base purchasing decisions on race or sex, and society sees femininity as less than masculinity, well, thats still misogeny- its just not misogeny that we can really lay on the feet of businessmen.

That being said, I think that at least in part, companies are more risk-averse toward that sort of thing than the actual statistics warrant. A white male protagonist may be "safer", just like an fps might be "safer" than a turn-based strategy and sci-fi may be a bit "safer" than fantasy, but they seem much more willing to take risks in those arenas than in others. I think your point is valid, but also think the lack of women in the industry (Which I'm not trying to imply is due to discriminatory hiring practices or anything, its a complex issue) and the fact that they want to see gaming as the very male-dominated pastime it used to be and is less so now contributes as well.

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kindgineer

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Edited By kindgineer

I guess I'm oblivious to the carnage that is (taking) place towards "gay" gamers. Whenever I log into a game; my voice, tone, and overall game play becomes a gigantic bulls eye target for any wandering retard who wants to open his mouth. I find it mildly offensive that internet evangelists seem to take their insults in more regard than the ones that caused my completely heterosexual, white, female wife to stop playing games on Xbox Live.

I'm responding to some of the idiotic comments, not the podcast, by the way.

PS: I think in order for there to be a happy medium, we need to expect players to separate themselves from content they do not wish to pursue. One huge aspect that is shoved down my throat is the idea that if a game were to be released whereas the main character is gay, and actions throughout the story are fueled by that, I wouldn't play it. Why? Because I do not associate myself in that manner, and never will. We need to be accepting of this natural avoidance, much like when an equal game of heterosexuality is released, that gay gamers don't feel obligated to give it a shot. Instead, right now we feel that a heterosexual gamer is a homophobe if he can't 'expand his mind,' and vice versa.

It's quite ridiculous.

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deactivated-5a46aa62043d1

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@towersixteen said:

@soapy86 said:

I guess it could be anyone really. If Mr. and/or Miss Genderqueer Equality for All Freedom Fighter finds fault with a game because it stars yet another straight white guy, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he and/or she is coming from.

However, it goes the other way too. If Mr. Straight White Male Evil Oppressor finds fault with a game because the protagonist is a gay black lady, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he's coming from.

I agree with what your saying, but I'm curious- I don't believe that we should judge a game just for the race, gender, ect. of the protagonist, but it is true that games disproportionately feature straight white males. So, how does one take steps to move gaming toward a more diverse landscape without doing silly things like lobbing caustic criticism on good games that happen to have a straight white male protagonist? Can we at least agree that that diversity would be a good thing, even if its hard to see how to work toward it in a sensible manner?

I 100% agree that more diversity would be a good thing for video games. However I'm also absolutely the wrong person to ask about how to get there without it feeling forced or preachy or whatever.

As a Straight White Male™ I know my uninformed opinions are worthless and unwelcome in these sorts of discussions, so I usually try to stay out of them. However, on the rare occasion that I ignore all good sense and decide to comment on one of these "minority representation/sexism in games" things, I usually end up coming off like a complete asshole because I have several varying and conflicting half-formed opinions on this stuff. (And I do apologize if I said anything offensive. But you guys have to understand, I'm essentially just a stray dog when it comes to these issues. I don't know what the fuck is going on, man. I just hear some noise and want to check it out.)

I guess I think the ideal way forward would be to just have custom characters for every game, as long as it makes sense. That way just about everyone would be happy. I think Patrick's Dragon Age II example is extraordinary bad (much like the game :P) but generally I think Bioware does a pretty alright job with that approach.

Beyond that I don't have any answers, I just know that I like video games, I think games would better with more diversity, and I detest being preached at.

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nsmb2_mario

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Edited By nsmb2_mario

@towersixteen: I wouldn't call it misogynistic because I don't think there is misogyny at any level of the decision-making process. There may be a bias, arguably a sexist one, toward men, but that is one made logically because of the target demographic. Where we differ is that I feel big business leaders would risk a female protagonist on their AAA games if it was thought it could succeed. Just look at recent blunders like Lara Croft (albeit because Square sucks at budgeting) and Remember Me. It's simply not viable. I also view much of the baiting as hurting the cause altogether, because it's so fragmented that the only change we see, from EA for example, is awkward and sketchy, i.e. what Milkman talked about in Dragon Age 2.

From my point of view, simply allowing the industry to grow and adapt would naturally lead to great female protagonists like Bayonetta, while being highly-critical of such attempts, as has happened, will only drive developers to play it safe even more. I think there is far more harm done by this movement that is unseen, to the point that a contingent of gamers consciously shut off the discussion whenever it comes up, because it has been grossly mishandled.

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I thought this article was going to be about how games are so desperate to attract as many people as possible that they're dumbed down and homogenized to the point of being dull and shallow.

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@soapy86 said:

@leebmx said:

@soapy86 said:

@leebmx said:

@soapy86 said:

This bizarre need that some people have for fictional characters to look, act, and think like they do, and even share their own sexual characteristics of all things seems so strange and foreign to me. Not once have I ever thought, "If the protagonist in this game isn't like me, then I'm not playing it!" I can't understand that perspective at all.

The main character in a game can be a man, a woman, something in between, an animal, an alien, or a colorful geometric shape. It makes no difference to me as long as the game is enjoyable.

Are you a straight man? If so then the reason that thought has never crossed your mind is because the vast majority of game protagonists are if not male, then exclusively straight (I can't think of a gay one anyway - unless you play your character gay in Mass Effect, but the game won't acknowledge it).

Its not that people want every character to be gay or have the same sexuality as them, its just that if you have a medium which hardly ever represents what you feel you are it is quite easy to feel left out. I don't know your background butsuppose you are a white straight man and that every game released has a black lesbian protagonist. How would that make you feel?Probably that these games weren't meant for you. I think that is the dilemma that faces gay people and to a lesser extent women and racial groups other than white. Its just about making games feel as if they are for everyone, not about excluding any particular group.

Read my post again. I specifically say that I DON'T need every (or any) character to be like me.

I guess I have misunderstood your point then, apologies if this is the case. Which people are you refering to as having a bizzare need for fictional characters to act the same as they do. My impression was that this was a dig a people who are asking for more gay characters in games. But like I say apologies if this was not what you meant.

I guess it could be anyone really. If Mr. and/or Miss Genderqueer Equality for All Freedom Fighter finds fault with a game because it stars yet another straight white guy, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he and/or she is coming from.

However, it goes the other way too. If Mr. Straight White Male Evil Oppressor finds fault with a game because the protagonist is a gay black lady, then (as long as it's a good game) that's a dumb stance and I can't understand where he's coming from.

I don't think anyone is picking out games in particular, saying for example that Splinter Cell or Pac Man Cedx should have a woman or a gay protagonist. People are just asking games in general to be more representative of the wonderful diversity within our societies. Patrick pointed out the fact that you can play as a woman in the upcoming COD and that is a small but significant move in this direction. Its about trying to open up gaming to a wider audience so everyone feels welcome and included rather than crowbarring awkward gender/race politics into everygame. I suppose I want to get to the point where I play a game and the fact that the main character is gay is no big deal and doesn't even warrant a mention unless their sexuality has something specific relevance to the game. Kind of the way it is for straight white characters now.

To reiterate, most games have a straight, white man as the star. This means if you don't belong to this group (and the majority of people don't) it is easy to feel excluded. You say you have no problem who you play as in a game, and that is great. However the way you wrote your post it was hard to decipher whether this was just because you had never had to think to hard about what it would be like to always play characters with different race/gender/sexuality from yours or you genuinely want to be inclusive.

Also using terms like Mr. and/or Miss Genderqueer Equality for All Freedom Fighter and Mr. Straight White Male Evil Oppressor come over as a little bit snidey and dismissive which makes it even harder to work out where you are coming from.

So yeah, apologies again if I misinterpreted you viewpoint. Its always tricky debating topics like this with any sort of nuance when you can't hear someone's tone or see their body language.

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leebmx

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I really appreciate the discussion that's started to take shape here, and I want to thank everyone for sharing their opinions. I agree that the panel name "gamer vs gaymer" suggests an antagonistic relationship between "us" and "them", and I'm going to give the panel organizer that feedback.

I also want to say that I think making a game that meaningfully represents all groups would be incredibly hard. I love character editors in games that allow you to choose your gender, skin color, and even weight. I'm also not suggesting that games like Call of Duty need to be dramatically altered to include queer characters. I am suggesting that creators should create more games that feature queer characters because queer people will really appreciate that. There are a lot of non-queer people who would also enjoy games with more diverse characters. Not everybody is going to want to play those games, and not everybody has to. I would guess that most Giant Bomb regulars probably don't want to play farmville on facebook, but there are thousands of people who do!

To me, diverse representation in games is an enabler for people to see how similar we are, even though many of us choose (consciously or not) to apply all these different labels to ourselves and others. It's about building mutual respect for people who are similar and different from ourselves, and allow us to talk about our experiences to find common ground. Help us all understand each other a little better.

I'm just going to quote you post because ot really sums up well what this debate is about and I hope the people in the thread read it.

I think a lot of gamers react out of fear when discussions like this come up because they think that their fun times and happy means of escape are going to be changed by politics or taken from them altogether. This is not what my idea of how games can be, and it seems not to be yours either. For me its not about having Sam Fisher suddenly start lecturing about gender rights or Mario rescue Prince Peach from the castle (although that would be very funny). Its just about understanding that more people play video games than just straight white men and this majority of the population would like to see some games with characters they recognise.

Samantha Fisher could still ram people's heads into sinks and a Desdamona Miles can still go back in time and stab people in the face - it just makes it a bit more interesting and welcoming for everyone if we all feel we are represented.

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NoMutantAllowed

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I think this is gay.

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Edited By Johntdrake

Big ups to @patrickklepek and @samanthazero for a cool interview about an interesting topic. Hurray for thoughtful discourse between smart people. And hurray for video games.

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Edited By MrMazz

I've never understood the immediate reaction that by talking about representation in games the conversators are trying to force all game to do what they want. This is a creative medium creative people going to do what they want Dosent make them bad for making a game or what have u with another white heterosexual male. No one is saying you must do this and add this an tht, it's just an avenue to view gaming culture and our greater culture

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It's cool that this conversation is finally taking Place among gamers, even if the quality of discussion often leaves a lot to be desired. It has been an ongoing discussion regarding movies for decades now, so like it or not, it'll probably keep being a discussed topic for years to come.

Personally, I do not see the problem with asking for more diversity in games, and I think there should be.

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@patrickklepek said:

@oburian said:

You're not helping yourself here, Patrick.

The quality of Dragon Age 2 is sort of irrelevant, no? It's about Dragon Age 2 being a AAA game, at least by its development definition.

So a game gets a free pass regardless of quality for its progressive and inclusionary ideals? Just because it fits right into your political mold? Good stuff. It's good to know you're not here to play games for what they are-- games.

Holy shit, could you be any worse at reading comprehension or creating subtext where there is none?

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I think diversity of characters in video games is a good cause to promote, overall. I enjoy playing as women in video games, and people of different races. I'm a white man, but I couldn't play Saint's Row 4 with any voice but male voice 2. He's who I played SR3 with, and frankly, he's my n(bomb). Wouldn't have it any other way (although the cockney accent is Excellent). I would definitely love the chance to play as some queer characters too - they're way too few and far between, and when they do exist they're too often ridiculous, like that character in Enchanted Arms (who else played Enchanted Arms? No one?).

Anyway, I think the problem that this discussion has is that it's so often an angry one, from both sides. It usually starts with somebody complaining about a game, and developers either acknowledging or not, and then inevitable backlash. I very much appreciate discussions like this one taking place in a context that does not involve overt rage on anyone's part - I feel that these are the only sort of discussions that produce... well, anything.

Thanks y'all.

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Homelessbird

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Oh, I forgot to make this point as well: any sort of progress on this front is going to be difficult when so many major games that are made are Japanese. It doesn't take long engaging with Japanese culture to realize that their sexual politics are firmly stuck in 1950, and that it's still pretty uncool to be gay, and ok to make lots of jokes about, say, fat women over there.

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Beekeeper

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Seriously, As a queer, I really don't give a shit about games made for me. It's pointless, because games are already made for us, they're made for everyone. The only problem that SaMANtha on this podcast has to complain about is "WE NEED GAMES TO HAVE MORE GAY PPL AND CATER TOWARDS MINORITY'S". And I do realize that most games show straight relationships, but does that really matter? Aside from the fact that they're not homosexual in some way shape or form, there's no problem, I play the game to have fun, not to obsess over the game not catering towards me. SaMANtha goes on about how big budget games are made for cis, heterosexual people and that they should be made for minoritys. Why? So we can have an "experience that speaks to us"? The only people that give a shit about "An experience" are escapists, IE People who take video games way too seriously. Video games are not a culture of humans, it's a sub culture, if you even want to call it that, I call it a hobby. I think more people should realize that games are meant for fun, not to cater towards everyone's sexuality/gender/whatever, Politics and Fun don't match.

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nsmb2_mario

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Oh, I forgot to make this point as well: any sort of progress on this front is going to be difficult when so many major games that are made are Japanese. It doesn't take long engaging with Japanese culture to realize that their sexual politics are firmly stuck in 1950, and that it's still pretty uncool to be gay, and ok to make lots of jokes about, say, fat women over there.

If that's true then why do Japanese games have by far the best female protagonists? Strong, independent and individual ones. Compare that to Manface McGee in one of BioWare's games.

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Homelessbird

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@homelessbird said:

Oh, I forgot to make this point as well: any sort of progress on this front is going to be difficult when so many major games that are made are Japanese. It doesn't take long engaging with Japanese culture to realize that their sexual politics are firmly stuck in 1950, and that it's still pretty uncool to be gay, and ok to make lots of jokes about, say, fat women over there.

If that's true then why do Japanese games have by far the best female protagonists? Strong, independent and individual ones. Compare that to Manface McGee in one of BioWare's games.

Well, I don't want to assume too much here, but I'm going to assume that you're not exactly a member of any feminist movement, based on your use of the phrase "Manface McGee." But I wouldn't say that "strong, independent, and individual" women characterize Japanese gaming, personally. When I look at Japanese games, I see a lot of two things involving women: fanservice and anime tropes.

You don't really get analogues to things like Hyperdimension Neptunia, Princess Maker, or god forbid Sengoku Rance in the West (or Rapelay, teehee). But even avoiding extreme examples, how many women in Japanese games are not personalities directly from harem mangas or princesses in need of rescue? I would hazard there aren't many examples.

Also I dare you to find a non-embarrassing gay character in a Japanese game (Kanji from P4 doesn't count because he's probably not gay).

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TowerSixteen

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Edited By TowerSixteen

If that's true then why do Japanese games have by far the best female protagonists? Strong, independent and individual ones. Compare that to Manface McGee in one of BioWare's games.

You know what? I'm gonna call you out on that, cause I don't think it's true. What stunning well-written and progressive female game characters are coming from japan? I'm sure there are a few, but I call bullshit that they have the "best by far".

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eccentrix

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@swifdemon said:

Wow, that panel title pisses me off enough that I'm not even going to bother listening.

I don't like the words 'queer' or 'gamer' or 'geek'. I don't even like using stores that offer a 'geek squad' service, because it sounds so gross.

I also agree with what @beekeeper said. I've said it before, but I've never felt the need for representation in anything. I don't have to have characters be like me to understand their motivations and feelings.

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nsmb2_mario

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Edited By nsmb2_mario

@homelessbird: You realise Neptunia is designed by women, correct? And I'm sure if you looked up Princess Maker it'd be the same. Sengoku Rance is a very niche indie game and it's very unfair to pick it out, I could cherry pick any number of actual fetish games from the West, though Rance at least is a decent game. As mentioned already, there's Bayonetta, Heather from SH3, Alicia from Valkyria Chronicles, Jill and Claire from Resident Evil, who are just normal women (before RE4 anyway). This is off the top of my head, it's not something I obsess over.

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MrMazz

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@beekeeper: u didn't have to be such an utter ass in making your point ya know? your instance on poor punnery involving Samantha's trans status is both rude and childish . So whatever terrible point u were trying to make is lost

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smmrbowski

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I also agree with what @beekeeper said. I've said it before, but I've never felt the need for representation in anything. I don't have to have characters be like me to understand their motivations and feelings.

Consider games as art (I realize not everyone does but stay with me). The way I see it, great art can do two things to elevate itself above other more shallow forms of entertainment (not to say that those don't serve a purpose as well):

- It can make a person who feels isolated and misunderstood feel connected by presenting them with something they can relate to

- It can make a person develop greater understanding for other people and experiences that they would never know otherwise by finding common ground through a more universal and emotional connection

This second point is really where the potential lies in creating more diversity in games. It's not just about appealing to an audience that is underrepresented, it's about any player finding common ground with a character who on the surface is completely different from themselves. Games especially have an amazing potential to create an enriching emotional experience by literally putting you in the place of the character. @patrickklepek touched on this in his introduction and I heard some of the same ideas coming from @samanthazero, specifically referring to playing as someone completely different from yourself on the Oculus Rift. (Also, great interview!)

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Homelessbird

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Edited By Homelessbird

@homelessbird: You realise Neptunia is designed by women, correct? And I'm sure if you looked up Princess Maker it'd be the same. Sengoku Rance is a very niche indie game and it's very unfair to pick it out, I could cherry pick any number of actual fetish games from the West, though Rance at least is a decent game. As mentioned already, there's Bayonetta, Heather from SH3, Alicia from Valkyria Chronicles, Jill and Claire from Resident Evil, who are just normal women (before RE4 anyway). This is off the top of my head, it's not something I obsess over.

Well, I did call all of those extreme examples. Princess Maker was not made by women, but it's really a moot point, since the fact that Neptunia had some female members on their design team doesn't change anything about the game they put out. It's an irrelevant quibble.

Also, do they make fetish games in the west? I'm sure they're out there, but I'm not familiar with them. The Japanese ones are the only ones I hear about - I'm not claiming to be an unbiased perspective.

You mention a couple characters in Japanese games, although not particularly recent ones, and I'm sad to say I'm not very familiar with any of those games, although I do find it fascinating that you think Bayonetta is a strong female portrayal. I've played enough of that game to see where you're coming from, but come on, let's be real: there's some extreme sexualization going on in that game. It's also interesting that you called out 3/5 survival horror women - maybe that's just your preference in games, but I think you may have hit upon something there. I definitely can think of many more real female characters that I can recall in Japanese games in the Survival Horror genre than any other. Whether that's because they sort of have to be somewhat intelligent and self-reliant just to exist in those universes or not, I don't know.

Anyway, I by no means expected this to be something you obsess over, nor do I expect an essay in response, but I have to tell you that my point of view is not going to be changed by a smattering of unexplained examples from random points in the past decade.

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ragnar_mike

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@cabrit_sans_cor: The forks or the eyes? I would guess both since it would be hard to remove them from the forks. Eyeballs are slippery. Also you would be bleeding profusely.

I liked Gone Home a lot. Except for the stairs down to the basement. Fuck that.

Also, the games community of full of clique's. If anybody wants to call themselves a gaymer, or they just want to be lgbt and be a gamer, or if they just want to be a person who likes to play games sometimes, that's fine by me. Be straight, or gay or transgender or anything else. And play games if you want to. I will still like you if you don't.

Unless you're a jerk. I don't like jerks.

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exfate

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As a Straight White Able-bodied Young Adult Male Of Average Height And Weight With Brown Hair I'd LOVE to play games where the main character is a Transgender Gay Black Disabled 90 Year Old Female Who Is 6ft 2in Tall And Is Obese With Ginger Hair and quite literally every other description of a character in-between and to the side.

Uniformity is boring. Diversity is interesting.

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ajroo

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This isnt about inclusion. Its about making games for a niche group and complaining that it isnt economically viable.

If a game is entertaining, and engaging, and reaches people as a whole, it doesnt matter if there is gay subject matter. If you want to make something that speaks to you and people just like you, primarily, thats completely different, and not inclusive, anyway.

No offense Patrick, but this conversation was a giant pile of pseudo intellectual, touchy feeling, emotional prattle.

It had nothing to do with inclusion.....nothing.

Samantha Kalman comes off as immature and entitled. She seems to view this issue in terms of her own self centered feelings.

We all feel left out of gaming subject matter at times. I have an Asian girlfriend and im plain ole' caucasian, i never see that as the main subject matter of video games. Should i have a forum on why there isnt more games for me?

I appreciate your attempt at finding other points of view. There was no there...there, for this one.

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nsmb2_mario

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@homelessbird: Actually, I'm fairly certain Neptunia's team is all-women or close to it, especially on the design side. I don't think many of its detractors know much about it, as I think is the case with a lot of people who bash the Japanese industry. As you said yourself, you don't know much about any of the games I mentioned, and yet they're huge blockbusters for those respective publishers. They're not all decade old games, SH3 was just in the SH HD collection, Jill was in RE6, Bayonetta has a sequel coming up. Valkyria Chronicles had some sequels, but is probably dead now.

On a more general note, I don't agree with your judgement on Japanese culture. It's a very split society, but women are free to pursue their interests just as much as men. There have been issues, but it to me it comes off as quite ignorant to tar the entire nation / people because of them.

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Tonetta777

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Edited By Tonetta777

@soapy86 said:

@milkman said:

@soapy86: It's very easy for you to say that you don't care if characters in games are like you when all of them already are.

No one is saying that every character should be gay or transsexual or whatever. Simply that games that do include and talk about these kind of issues (and do it well) are important and more of them should exist. Is that really so bad?

I never said it was bad. In fact, I think my other post would imply the opposite. It's just that I personally don't enjoy being pandered to, and I can't really understand the perspective of people who do.

It's not a matter of being pandered to. Those in this thread that are painting the desires of certain groups of people to be able to identify on a personal level with more protagonists in video games as wanting to be "pandered to" are really missing the point entirely, and are being unfair to other people in the process.

It isn't a matter of wanting to be pandered to when literally every video game protagonist out there is the same white dude rescuing the same white chick. The fact that The Walking Dead let me play as a black protagonist for once was a breath of fresh air, even if in the grand scheme of things it was a minor detail. How many women tied to railroad tracks is a gay player going to have to save in video games before their eyes gloss over and they all start to feel EXACTLY the same? It's a matter of wanting to be able to identify with a character, understand their motivations and feel that there's more depth to them than rescuing Princess Peach. When every game protagonist looks the same, acts the same and talks the same, you really have to start questioning why in the world you would be against diversifying that roster a bit.

Most of the people in this comment thread saying that words like "inclusionary" bother them and they can't understand why people want to see protagonists from different perspectives are the same sort of people that grind their teeth at things like the Bechtel Test and bitch and moan when people take a look at the prevalence of white male hetero lead roles in Hollywood under a critical lens.

If it's pandering to want gay guys and gals in game stories, then it's pandering for all of you to want to maintain the status quo of big beefy white hetero Rescue Rangers looking motherfuckers in games. Get over yourselves.

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ianyarborough

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@patrickklepek It's content like this that makes me proud that you're a part of Giant Bomb. Thoughtful, inclusive and insightful. Keep up the awesome work. Also, keep the TOTALLY RAD NEW THEME MUSIC! *ahem* Thanks.

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Baal_Sagoth

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You're probably right about how something that sweeping would be perceived, but you know what Call of Duty has done that is an important change? Allowing you to play as women in multiplayer in Call of Duty: Ghosts. That's huge, and even though I couldn't care less about the Call of Duty series, they deserve enormous props for making steps in the right direction, and what appears to be one their audience demanded, too. Hard to not be happy about that.

I do have to wonder what makes you perceive that as being "huge" though when even Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, one of the (sub-)genre-defining Military Shooters, let you play as that French resistance lady in multiplayer matches. Playing female fighters isn't anything new by any stretch of the imagination and, furthermore, it's pretty easy to do as it's usually little more than a reskin.

Similarly, even Baldur's Gate 2 had the (somewhat hilarious) Girdle of Masculinity/ Feminity that swapped your gender in order to allow you to access quasi-same-sex romance options. So, for example, a female avatar could wear the girdle and access romance options with Viconia or Jaheira. DAII really just build that concept right into the game without the weird workaround. It doesn't offer particularly believable relationships either just à la carte availability of every character to fuck whenever, whomever. As if actual conscious beings didn't have a personality, sexual preferences, diversity and such.

Sometimes, it seems to me, it might be worth to examine all the options you already have/ had in games instead of just jumping onto the most recent hot topic and suddenly ignoring everything that came before.

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Shingro

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@homelessbird: I find it endlessly fascinating that your rebuttle to bayonetta being a strong female character is that she's sexualized, as though those are some sort of matter/antimatter that can never be combined.

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Tonetta777

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@shingro said:

@homelessbird: I find it endlessly fascinating that your rebuttle to bayonetta being a strong female character is that she's sexualized, as though those are some sort of matter/antimatter that can never be combined.

You're confusing Strong Female Character (A three dimensional character with motivations that make sense, interesting flaws and a sense of independent agency and personality i.e a strongly DEVELOPED character) with a "Strong" Female Character (A character who has great physical strength and beats up plenty of baddies and therefore is not the girlfriend in the fridge by default). Just because your character is the latter in no way implies that she is the former. She can still be a two-dimensional idiot with no agency of her own.

Bayonetta isn't a strong character. She's not engaging or interesting on a personal level. She's Kratos with exposed breasts for easily excitable consumers to oogle at.

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Tesla

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Edited By Tesla

The thing about clamoring for interesting gay or transgendered relationships in games while claiming straight people don't understand because they're the norm: there are barely any interesting or meaningful straight relationships explored in the history of video games.

The idea that the video game industry has mastered heterosexuality but still stumbles on LGBT is laughably erroneous. The subject of sexuality is poorly handled by nearly every developer in the industry, regardless of what type of sexuality it is.

I never go into a game wondering what similarities I share with the protagonist. And if I find myself playing a character that is unlike me in some way, I feel no differently than if I were playing a mirror image of myself. The important thing is that something is interesting, not that it is interesting and also applies directly to my situation in life.

We live in a world that still sees gay and transgendered people ostracized, outlawed, tortured and killed in real life. I'd much rather an activist focus their efforts towards real people and their situations before they start protesting over pixels.

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OreoSpeedwagon

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@homelessbird: That's a pretty xenophobic generalization you just made there.