I just finished this, and... holy shit.

There are no heroes.

I just finished watching a playthrough of it, and yeah, I agree, that ending is fucking nuts. As soon as payday rolls around I am definitely going to buy this game.

Ya, the fight club ending. This is the first game I can think of that has done it and it was a hell of a ride. Since it's so short I need to play it again to see what, if anything, the choices will impact. I know they all have consequences (one or two of them I recall them mentioning as it happened briefly) but I'm just interested to see how they impact the end.

so its like the resnov thing in black ops

@SlightConfuse said:

so its like the resnov thing in black ops

Yeah, except the story doesn't suck fucking ass.

This is a game to be replayed for sure just so you can apply the knowledge you received from the first playthrough and piece everything together.

Instead of starting another thread, I'm going to ask some questions here:

If Konrad died, who was leading the 33rd? Are they basically a reflection of Walker's team? A group of soldiers trying to do the right thing, but without much success?

Also, after not following orders, what did Konrad do with the 33rd? And also, this seems like a major plot-hole: If Walkers' team could see the fact that he was talking to a broken radio, why the hell didn't they question the fact that Walker was hunting a man that was talking to him through a broken radio?

Ah man...

Here's hoping there's a dirt cheap steam sale incoming.

@FirePrince said:

Instead of starting another thread, I'm going to ask some questions here:

If Konrad died, who was leading the 33rd? Are they basically a reflection of Walker's team? A group of soldiers trying to do the right thing, but without much success?

Also, after not following orders, what did Konrad do with the 33rd? And also, this seems like a major plot-hole: If Walkers' team could see the fact that he was talking to a broken radio, why the hell didn't they question the fact that Walker was hunting a man that was talking to him through a broken radio?

1. I don't think anybody was leading the 33rd, and I think that's the point. They build it up like it's this guy who is pulling all of these strings, when it's probably just a unit in chaos attempting to have order in the worst way possible.

2. Not sure about this one. I think you might be getting hung up on details, though. Konrad was dead long before anything happened.

3. What do you mean broken radio?

@Napalm said:

@FirePrince said:

Instead of starting another thread, I'm going to ask some questions here:

If Konrad died, who was leading the 33rd? Are they basically a reflection of Walker's team? A group of soldiers trying to do the right thing, but without much success?

Also, after not following orders, what did Konrad do with the 33rd? And also, this seems like a major plot-hole: If Walkers' team could see the fact that he was talking to a broken radio, why the hell didn't they question the fact that Walker was hunting a man that was talking to him through a broken radio?

1. I don't think anybody was leading the 33rd, and I think that's the point. They build it up like it's this guy who is pulling all of these strings, when it's probably just a unit in chaos attempting to have order in the worst way possible.

2. Not sure about this one. I think you might be getting hung up on details, though. Konrad was dead long before anything happened.

3. What do you mean broken radio?

I think he's referring to the radio that Walker uses when talking to Konrad. It's revealed at the end that the radio was never even functional. As to why Lugo and Adams never try to relieve Walker of his command, I'd guess that at first they were only mildly worried about him acting all weird, and after a while they just didn't even care any more, the amount of death that they deliver and witness taking its toll on them aswell as Walker.

@Commander_Crichton said:

It's revealed at the end that the radio was never even functional.

Wait, whoa. I must have missed this detail. When does this happen?

@Napalm said:

@Commander_Crichton said:

It's revealed at the end that the radio was never even functional.

Wait, whoa. I must have missed this detail. When does this happen?

When Walker and Konrad finally come face to face and the plot twist is revealed, some of the choices you've made in the game are shown briefly along with a couple of other snippets from certain scenes, one of those snippets shows Walker finding the busted radio and using it to talk to Konrad.

I see stuff has resolved here quite nicely. Um, thanks for replying.

And yes, at the end, the game shows how the the team sees Walker talking to a radio with the cables cut and hanging outside of the case.

@CornBREDX: Well... but Walker was sent specifically to find Konrad. That was his mission. Are you saying that Walker is actually Konrad, and he was part of the unit that was caught in the sandstorm and trapped in Dubai? That feels like it has too many plotholes to be true.

@CornBREDX: Alright, I'm going to start another playthrough. There's a bunch of questions I have.

Spec Ops: The Line is a goddamn masterpiece.

Game of the Year.

@CornBREDX: Okay, then who is the guy in the beginning of the game? When Walker is voicing over, saying Konrad is a hero, and somebody, presumably, Konrad, is in a nice hi-rise in Dubai? It looks remarkably like Konrad, judging by the pictures, but when it fads to title screen, Konrad's voiceover on the radio is very different than what you hear in-game later.

So yeah, I figured I wouldn't make another topic since we have one of such spoilerific proportions already, so what did you guys choose in the end? Did you shoot yourself, hallucination-Konrad or let him do the job for you?

I just ended up blowing my brains out. Felt on-character, as there seemed to be a moment of clarity within him amidst all the insanity, and I feared if this was not done that insanity would do nothing but grow even further. So that choice was pretty cool, even if I didn't like teh twistahs in the end too much.

@VierasTalo: Tell me about that scene. I chose to shoot Konrad.

I'm sorry but "the badguy is you" is the single dumbest, most overused, trite, pathetic, "my mom told me I could write" story conceit in the book.

It's disgusting for a game to try to pull this in the year 2012 and pretend like it is in ANY way novel or surprising. It's an artistic crime, because the only people who will find it entertaining are kids who are too young to know of the seminal works that did it for real.

@VierasTalo: Tell me about that scene. I chose to shoot Konrad.

@Napalm said:

There are no heroes.

There never are. You got me interested in this game.

And now for some ending talk-the first time I shot myself, seems the logical thing that I could have only done, with everything fucked up so badly no way there was a way out, and living with the horrors of Dubai in Walkers' mind seemed like a slow death.

I still think that best ending is this one-You shoot Konrad in the mirror, the marines come to save you, you are wearing Konrad's suit, and you open fire. After killing all of the marines, you spot a radio, Walker picks it up, and goes:" Welcome to Dubai, gentlemen". Really cool ending, and one that basically suggests that the insanity here is a cycle-team comes for the rescue, stays for the killing stuff and playing god.

@Napalm: I ended up not shooting "Konrad" and Walker blew his head off. Fuuuuuck. This game is just depressing in every sense of the word. I replayed and got a different ending but I think Walker killing himself is probally the most fitting ending to the whole thing. Now I want to replay the game so I can see all this stuff with knowledge of what is going on. Kind of like how if you watch Fight Club a second time it takes on a whole new meaning.

@CornBREDX: Actually, Black Ops did this too although it didn't pull it off in nearly this grand fashion.

Ok I'll try to explain this how I saw it so bear with me as this is going to be long and somewhat confusing unless you have played all of the game, seen all of the endings (there are 2 endings and one of the endings has 3 outcomes based on how you treat the epilogue).

Konrad at the beginning of the game is dead. He killed himself two weeks prior (the last transmission). This is my theory based on the intels in his apartment and the fact that leading up to the tower there are several intels regarding his "final orders". He is not only not seen, but not even referenced by anyone else in the game but Walker. The people know he is dead which is why the CIA is able to make their move (more on that later).

As for the 33rd. The 33rd you are fighting throughout the game are the Damned 33rd. They are a group that split off during initial evacuation efforts when the bigger sandstorms hit and walled them in. The 33rd went to war with itself as to why they were actually in Dubai (Walker makes the same statement in the first chapter "I thought we were rescuing people"). Konrad, closed off from the rest of the world thanks to the sandstorm, wanted to save the people and in essence live out there until help arrived. The others wanted to get out of dodge and only survive. Basically screwing the people who lived there. Lugo and Adams both make asides as to the 33rd going to war with each other, but you can also see this when going to each of their respective bases as the US flag flies right in the Damned areas and upside down (signifying distress) in the loyalist areas. It's reversed from the immediate logical since Konrad's men were the ones not actually in distress. The Damned were the ones trying to escape the city with the Radioman's beacon again, more on that in a minute.

As for the remaining 33rd, in the last chapter when you reach the tower and the soldier states that we are the last of the 33rd. this is meaning, Konrad's remaining fighters. The others were executed in the area in I believe Chapter 6 (whatever chapter that you find the broken radio) that you see a bunch of guys in chairs tied up and those that were lined up against the wall. Their uniforms are different and match those in the tower. His final orders don't put Walker in charge per se, but he is the highest ranking officer remaining hence the soldiers who still respect the chain of command to ask what his orders are.

The others, the Damned 33rd were those with the Radioman and those at the beginning that you try to rescue. He was technically their leader as they got their orders from him (which is why they chase Walker and coompany), though they didn't really seem to have an actual infrastructure outside of his leadership. Walker makes several remarks about how the Radioman was not the kind of guy you wanted running around a city like this. He was apparently crazy in Kabul as well according to the intels. The Damned seemed to fight just to protect what they claimed was theirs. Now these folks were mainly fighting the Exiles who were made up of refugees, militia, and those from Dubai who were going to fight back. They didn't want to be oppressed or have martial law imposed on them. The civilians basically fighting back and these Exiles are the ones that attack his group in the first Chapter based on actions from the CIA.

Now here is where it gets even more confusing. Upon arrival into Dubai, there is talks of a ceasefire. From the random Radioman quotes over the airwaves and the one piece of intel at the Nest, Konrad was the one that orchestrated said ceasefire. All was technically at peace between the 2 factions with Konrad, staying away from both with his own private faction at the tower. Though unstable the city was somewhat functional until the CIA came in (or were already there based on one of Lugo's comments and their intel outpost, it isn't clear) and started picking at the scabs on both sides. They had agents working both sides (which is why the first agent was dealing with the Exiles chasing down Daniels) and Riggs pulling all of the strings. Their ultimate goal was to wipe the map with Dubai so the story doesn't get out of the Damned going rogue.

While Konrad had basically given up and was holding out with his loyal followers (they mention his loyal men twice in the game) in the tower, the CIA started events in motion to starve out and dehydrate the entire city hence the weird stashes of food you find and the whole of Chapter 10 in taking the water and destroying it.

All this takes place as Walker is slowly going insane from being shell shocked (the rescue soldiers in the epilogue mention this). Apparently all of this has brought back the misery of Kabul where he, Konrad, his unit, or a combination of the three apparently killed a bunch of civilians, which again, is not really clear. What happened in Kabul is somewhat of a mystery but I think that is the point though Walker was definitely in the middle of it. As Walker slowly descends into madness, he imagines Konrad as his person or figure to blame or justify what he is doing depending on how you are playing. He is essentially following on the same path that Konrad did when he entered Dubai for the first time. Walker was causing a split in his unit (which is why he imagines killing each of them at different points) and even in the last epilogue scene where you kill all of the rescuers of the evac team, he reiterates the "Welcome to Dubai" line from the beginning again, restarting the cycle. Basically, like Kabul, had Walker just followed his orders which Konrad even states to him during the final cutscene in Chapter 15, this would have been avoided.

In essence, Konrad and Walker were like the same person which is why Walker found it easy to blame him for everything. I'm assuming one of them, or both, killed a ton of civilians in Kabul which again, was part of what made Walker descend into madness.

In any event, the story of this game was truly amazing in its execution in order for this debate or these questions to even be asked. Not even counting in some of the messages that make you question what you are doing as a player, but just the overarching story of not only a 4 way fight between multiple factions and the CIA, but also the internal struggle of a man clearly going insane from the situation. Amazing game and while my summation of the events may be opinion, that is what I could make of the story pulling all of the pieces together from the intel and having played through it multiple times. I do think the whole story is meant to be partially vague for the player to actually question where the "line" actually is and how far one would go before they considered it crossed.

I think I hit the key points though and got the players right to hopefully clear up some confusion I've seen from folks here. While I may not be 100% of outcome as that is meant to be up to the player, the key figures and their motives are at least right based on the what the game has laid out so hopefully this helps for some clarity.

@NeilRapalee: Great synopsis. Helped me put a few things into perspective a bit better.

Who wrote the graffiti scattered around the city?

@NeilRapalee great synopsis, just to clarify something: all of the 33rd were called the Damned 33rd. They were known as the Damned 33rd as soon as Konrad defected on the order to come back by the US Government. The Radioman was always in alignment with Konrad - he had deep respect for the man and what he tried to do in Dubai after his commanders told him to come home. He took command of the 33rd after Konrad died. There is a splinter cell faction that broke away from the 33rd known as the Exiles, who rebelled against Konrad's "justice" among the survivors. The insurgents are the civilians and soldiers the CIA are manipulating to help them against the 33rd. Walker first fights insurgents, then part of the loyalist 33rd who mistakes them for CIA, then the loyalist 33rd platoon who hears about Walker killing a bunch of their soldiers and civilians with white phosphorous from the Radioman over the air. By the end of the game, Walkers made so many mistakes all of the factions are out to get him.

Its my opinion that the Exiles were rounded up and killed long before Walker got there. Like you said the clothes for the last 9 men that Konrad gave Walker control of match the ones from chapter 4 or 5. Walker found the bodies of Konrad's second in command and most trusted men in the middle of the game. Those were the soldiers he was hallucinating about gaining control of at the end. I think even though Konrad committed those atrocities, and he had his most trusted men killed because they mutinied against him, he knew that they were doing it to uphold honor and humanity, and Konrad considered them the real "remainder of the 33rd" in the hellhole that was Dubai.

Theres so much here that both makes so much sense and makes the game more awesome god damn. Thanks for the thoughts. The intentional vagueness and how self aware this game is blows me the fuck away! It has all these cliche elements, like the fight club stuff, but does them with so much more impact with the way they're done. Theres the slow descent into actual madness, during the game, but then you realise its far far worse. But it's done in such a way that it really shakes the core conceits you expected.
 
Fucking kudos!

@CornBREDX said:

Ya, the fight club ending. This is the first game I can think of that has done it and it was a hell of a ride. Since it's so short I need to play it again to see what, if anything, the choices will impact. I know they all have consequences (one or two of them I recall them mentioning as it happened briefly) but I'm just interested to see how they impact the end.

Exactly what I was thinking. The funny this is that this game's story and ending seems a lot like what Far Cry 3 is going to be and it looks like Spec Ops beat them to it. However, I have no doubt that Far Cry 3 will be the better game overall.

@NeilRapalee: Well said. Blaming Konrad for all the shit Walker goes through/does and then creating him in his head (split personality) so he can confront him.

I guess someone needs to check the dead bodies and see if they match the guys at the lobby. I was though confused about the guy with the glass eye at the end that Walker hallucinated.

My guess is the split might have started after the accidental killing of the civilians scene, you see a closeup of Walker's head acting weird while the other 2 are arguing.

Also in the epilogue, you can simply not shoot and lay down your weapon after a few seconds. You get taken in by the soliders in a Humvee.

Really great touches in this game, story and overall. You'll also notice subtle things during gameplay, for example, how Walker's behavior in firefights changes as you go through the story, at first he yells out orders in a calm manner, eventually escalating into a madman spouting nonsense.

@dr3day said:

Who wrote the graffiti scattered around the city?

@NeilRapalee great synopsis, just to clarify something: all of the 33rd were called the Damned 33rd. They were known as the Damned 33rd as soon as Konrad defected on the order to come back by the US Government. The Radioman was always in alignment with Konrad - he had deep respect for the man and what he tried to do in Dubai after his commanders told him to come home. He took command of the 33rd after Konrad died. There is a splinter cell faction that broke away from the 33rd known as the Exiles, who rebelled against Konrad's "justice" among the survivors. The insurgents are the civilians and soldiers the CIA are manipulating to help them against the 33rd. Walker first fights insurgents, then part of the loyalist 33rd who mistakes them for CIA, then the loyalist 33rd platoon who hears about Walker killing a bunch of their soldiers and civilians with white phosphorous from the Radioman over the air. By the end of the game, Walkers made so many mistakes all of the factions are out to get him.

Its my opinion that the Exiles were rounded up and killed long before Walker got there. Like you said the clothes for the last 9 men that Konrad gave Walker control of match the ones from chapter 4 or 5. Walker found the bodies of Konrad's second in command and most trusted men in the middle of the game. Those were the soldiers he was hallucinating about gaining control of at the end. I think even though Konrad committed those atrocities, and he had his most trusted men killed because they mutinied against him, he knew that they were doing it to uphold honor and humanity, and Konrad considered them the real "remainder of the 33rd" in the hellhole that was Dubai.

Agreed, after you choose to shoot Konrad at the end the guy who asked "What are our orders" at the elevator appears and talks to you. But when you turn he's disappeared. Those men are clearly a hallucination.

Cliche as hell and kind of boring but when it's compared to stuff like CoD and Assassins Creed it seems pretty good, I guess.

Not to mention the Nolan North voice doesn't fit well in the world, and Nolan North getting all sweary is silly.

@Oldirtybearon said:

Spec Ops: The Line is a goddamn masterpiece.

Game of the Year.

If the actual gameplay mechanics weren't so bland I would seriously consider it being mine. The story is incredibly well thought out and they pull it off spectacularly.

@mosdl said:

@NeilRapalee:

My guess is the split might have started after the accidental killing of the civilians scene, you see a closeup of Walker's head acting weird while the other 2 are arguing.

probably right, seeing as Konrad is painting a picture of the woman and child at the end

@NoRemnants said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

Spec Ops: The Line is a goddamn masterpiece.

Game of the Year.

If the actual gameplay mechanics weren't so bland I would seriously consider it being mine. The story is incredibly well thought out and they pull it off spectacularly.

How about 'Rough Diamond of the Year'?

@dr3day: A piece of intel was a spraypaint can attached to a Radioman recording, where he discussed how he was impressed that the locals were still making art.

Just finished the game and wow what a crazy/awesome ending. Great game!

@FirePrince said:

Instead of starting another thread, I'm going to ask some questions here:

If Konrad died, who was leading the 33rd? Are they basically a reflection of Walker's team? A group of soldiers trying to do the right thing, but without much success?

Also, after not following orders, what did Konrad do with the 33rd? And also, this seems like a major plot-hole: If Walkers' team could see the fact that he was talking to a broken radio, why the hell didn't they question the fact that Walker was hunting a man that was talking to him through a broken radio?

Oh man there is a really good simple psychological reason for this. Walker found the radio after the white phosphorous shit had been going down, so all three felt absolutely terrible about what they had done. By not questioning Walker, Lugo and Adams show that they are following his orders. The reason they are following his orders is because subconsciously they don't want to blame themselves for what happened to the refugees and the 33rd. To do that they lay the blame on Walker and believe that since he gave the order to them then he is responsible. This logic leads them to believe they should follow just about any order given by him since if they disobeyed his later orders then the question would come up of why they didn't question what is the most horrid thing he ordered them to do and their guilty consciences clearly can't handle answering that question. So basically to defer the guilt they feel over the white phosphorous incident Lugo and Adams continue following Walker's orders to put the blame on him as their superior.

Also I'd imagine the 33rd were just deferring to whoever was the highest ranked, even if Konrad had his command structure killed theirs still a lot of rank and file to make orders. Or it could have been the radio guy, he seemed to have a clever if irreverent head on his shoulders.

Anyway, hey guys we can have a philosophical/psychological/mature/all those other kinds of deep story in a shoot-ey game now, somehow shutdown whoever is working on Call of Duty because its clearly been shown that we can do better. If this game doesn't succeed enough financially to leave an impression then hopefully it will get people to look at the next military shooter with the traditional bland story and look poorly on it after experiencing such a high point in video game storytelling.

Or you know those punk assholes who only care about the game part of the video game will continue to be the loudest voice and I'll keep wanting to punch through my monitor.

Even though its been done before where the character turnsout to be ape shit out of he's mind. It was pretty cool how everything turned out in this game. Witnessing the horror of war and seeing the effects it has on men. Captain walker became a victim of being mindfucked by the brutality of war. When I first beat the game I just killed myself right off the bat. Then I drop my weapon in the 2nd ending where those guys came to rescue you. The 3rd ending I went ape shit and killed everyone trying to help me, and the last one I let myself get killed by the soldiers trying to save me.

It was pretty fun to watch I hope they make a sequel of spec-ops, and this time I hope they do more with the gameplay. To make it standout more between other cover based shooters.

I don't know if this says more about me or the game but i picked up for my PS3 on thursday night got home around 9:30pm and started to play not long after, i sat played through it in one sitting went to bed at 8:30am friday. I have never done that before, i have had some long gaming sessions before but never a all nighter. The story really drew me in, i did replay the ending more then once to see all the outcomes (trophies) and its all a big mind fuck that i really enjoyed.

The only thing i would have wanted was for them to completely rip off the gears style of 3rd person action, because i struggled with the mechanics of the game from start to finish but everything else was a extremely compelling experience.

I was into this game until the last 2 hours. Then the gameplay became the most aggravating, nauseating experience possible and the story just made me angrier and angrier. I cannot in recent memory think of a game that left me as angry as I am now. Near the end I was mashing execute on anyone I can because I was so fucking angry, so sick of the conflict that every ten minutes made me more furious. Maybe that was their intention? It's stupid, because I play games to relieve stress, not to get wound up tighter than a corkscrew and be on edge all Goddamn day.

Catherine left me confused and mildly annoyed, Mass Effect 3 left me more confused and the annoyance had to grow over a couple days... LA Noire, I was just glad it was over because I hated Kelso as a character. But I can't think of anything that actually made me physically angry. I wanted to break the Goddamn controller in my hands just because I hated absolutely everything that was happening.

@Brodehouse: Sounds like a pretty powerful experience. I leaned more to the desperate sorrow and exhaustion, but that's just my personality. It's definitely not a "relax and unwind" kind of game.