Quite a bit might be an overstatement. Well, at least Skyrim could learn a lot from one aspect of Dead Island which is its melee combat. Although Elder Scrolls tries to cover many more gameplay aspects like; stealth, bow'n arrow, melee, magic, and so on, I can understand then why a game like Dead Island was able to do such a better job with its melee seeing as how it basically only focused on a single area. But, ultimately I would like to see Elder Scrolls in the future take some additional tactical approaches to its hand-to-hand combat in later installments. I thought a more tactical and RPG-esque game mechanic may have been foreshadowed by Bethesda's Fallout games because of how you can target limbs, which is also another feature of why I though Dead Island's melee was vastly superior to Elder Scrolls'.

In Dead Island you can target not only a limb but also a specific section of a limb and then chop it off. Some Zombies (thugs) have devastating melee attacks when they flail their arms around and will send you soaring through the air if you're not careful. The best tactic for dealing with a Thug zombie is to first remove both arms so you can finally get within weapon's reach of their neck and finish the job. Besides the tactical applications of limb-removal I also found the analog setting to be extremely innovative when it comes to melee combat in a first-person game. Lastly, in the Elder Scrolls franchise melee definitely does not feel weighted and instead tends to feel (mostly) like you're swinging through air and when you strike someone in melee combat usually only a stream of blood will jet-off in the direction according to the way your arm was swinging at your foe. Dead Island's melee nearly never feels like that. Every swing hits with the right "umph" and every clank feels as though it is connecting with just the right impact to spin or topple your enemy.

Jump to 5:18 in my review to see an example of some of the contact sensitivity and weighted combat feel of Dead Island.

It's just too bad that so much more of Dead Island's aspects were completely shallow when compared to it's melee combat.

What do you think? Would you like to see contact information like this in future Elder Scrolls installments? Possibly enemy types that require tactical dismemberment to defeat? I know I would.

Quite a bit might be an overstatement. Well, at least Skyrim could learn a lot from one aspect of Dead Island which is its melee combat. Although Elder Scrolls tries to cover many more gameplay aspects like; stealth, bow'n arrow, melee, magic, and so on, I can understand then why a game like Dead Island was able to do such a better job with its melee seeing as how it basically only focused on a single area. But, ultimately I would like to see Elder Scrolls in the future take some additional tactical approaches to its hand-to-hand combat in later installments. I thought a more tactical and RPG-esque game mechanic may have been foreshadowed by Bethesda's Fallout games because of how you can target limbs, which is also another feature of why I though Dead Island's melee was vastly superior to Elder Scrolls'.

In Dead Island you can target not only a limb but also a specific section of a limb and then chop it off. Some Zombies (thugs) have devastating melee attacks when they flail their arms around and will send you soaring through the air if you're not careful. The best tactic for dealing with a Thug zombie is to first remove both arms so you can finally get within weapon's reach of their neck and finish the job. Besides the tactical applications of limb-removal I also found the analog setting to be extremely innovative when it comes to melee combat in a first-person game. Lastly, in the Elder Scrolls franchise melee definitely does not feel weighted and instead tends to feel (mostly) like you're swinging through air and when you strike someone in melee combat usually only a stream of blood will jet-off in the direction according to the way your arm was swinging at your foe. Dead Island's melee nearly never feels like that. Every swing hits with the right "umph" and every clank feels as though it is connecting with just the right impact to spin or topple your enemy.

Jump to 5:18 in my review to see an example of some of the contact sensitivity and weighted combat feel of Dead Island.

It's just too bad that so much more of Dead Island's aspects were completely shallow when compared to it's melee combat.

What do you think? Would you like to see contact information like this in future Elder Scrolls installments? Possibly enemy types that require tactical dismemberment to defeat? I know I would.

Skyrim needs more trucks, obviously.

@ShadowConqueror: yes, skyrim would be my GOTY if there were trucks in it

Yeah agreed. I'm loving Skyrim but the combat really does feel flat sometimes.

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Yeah agreed. I'm loving Skyrim but the combat really does feel flat sometimes.

@Oldirtybearon said:

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Yeah, I played as a stealth character and by the time I was in my 30s I could basically one-shot anything and by 40 I could be right in front of an enemy and they'd never spot me. Made it boring actually. I love it early on, but later it becomes too powerful.

Yeah...I've one-shot a dragon. It's stupid, I know.

@TerraMantis said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Yeah, I played as a stealth character and by the time I was in my 30s I could basically one-shot anything and by 40 I could be right in front of an enemy and they'd never spot me. Made it boring actually. I love it early on, but later it becomes too powerful.

Yeah...I've one-shot a dragon. It's stupid, I know.

I know what you mean, but I never took perks in Light Armour because they were better spent on pickpocket perks (100 Pickpocket can lead to hilarity, like naked Whiterun). As a result, if and when I do get spotted, I need to get the hell away because at level 59, I'm a total glass cannon. Dragon fights can still be a bitch because of this, not being able to run and hide from them and all. I dunno, I still find the idea of stealth-bombing a dungeon or getting through a quest like a ghost to be appealing. If it's not someone else's bag I get that, but with the OP criticizing melee combat I figured I'd point out sword and shield isn't the only way to play.

Skyrim could learn quite a bit from Dead Island. 

  What do you think? Would you like to see contact information like this in future Elder Scrolls installments? Possibly enemy types that require tactical dismemberment to defeat? I know I would. 

@Storms said:

Skyrim could learn quite a bit from Dead Island.

...Like how to make me return it without any remorse. Dead Island was good at that.

What do you think? Would you like to see contact information like this in future Elder Scrolls installments? Possibly enemy types that require tactical dismemberment to defeat? I know I would.

Oblivion improved on Morrowind's combat and Skyrim made vast strides in combat over Oblivion. VI's combat will be a huge improvement over Skyrim's. Remember, this is going to be half a decade from now. Also remember that Skyrim's combat (melee, sneak and magic put together) is co-equal to all other features of the game, whereas games like Dead Island are all about combat and nothing else.

But imagine if it DID have Dead Island's analogue combat... DROOL!

@Storms said:

Oblivion improved on Morrowind's combat and Skyrim made vast strides in combat over Oblivion. VI's combat will be a huge improvement over Skyrim's. Remember, this is going to be half a decade from now.

I agree that Elder Scrolls has continually improved over their own game with each installment from its combat aspects, but the fact is that Dead Island is out right now...and its melee is better right now.

Also remember that Skyrim's combat (melee, sneak and magic put together) is co-equal to all other features of the game, whereas games like Dead Island are all about combat and nothing else.

I do realize that. That's why I say "Although Elder Scrolls tries to cover many more gameplay aspects like; stealth, bow'n arrow, melee, magic, and so on, I can understand then why a game like Dead Island was able to do such a better job with its melee seeing as how it basically only focused on a single area."

I also later reiterate by stating "It's just too bad that so much more of Dead Island's aspects were completely shallow when compared to it's melee combat." That was supposed to imply, "unlike Skyrim."

@washingmachine said:

But imagine if it DID have Dead Island's analogue combat... DROOL!

Exactly. Don't get me wrong, Dead Island was a shallow game and Skyrim was extremely rich, but even with its technical issues and lack of depth the combat alone was basically able to keep me interested in Dead Island. Where as if the situations were reversed and Skyrim didn't have the rich, immersive world and I was playing a melee character there would have been no way it would have kept my interest as long as Dead Island was able to solely based off of its fun melee mechanics.

The only thing I would like in Skyrim is Analog combat. Everything else can stay in Dead Island. I've put more time into Skyrim than any single player game in a decade, and that wouldn't be the case if I didn't like the combat.

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

@Zenaxzd said:

I tend to agree with you though, OP, Skyrim's combat is just downright terrible compared to just about any other RPG out there.

I...never said that. I never said anything even close to that. I'm not sure if you're just saying your own feelings, but the way you reference the OP then say that almost sounds like you're quoting me saying the combat is downright terrible.

I don't think Skyrim's combat is terrible, i think it covers many more interesting avenues of engaging an enemy and thus is more difficult to make each one as well done as its best, but ultimately i believe Dead Island (a game that only focuses on melee alone) has far superior hand-to-hand combat.

If we're talking combat, both games could learn a hell of a lot from Mount And Blade.

I feel like Dead Island's combat wouldn't work well in Skyrim. It was fun to play for a while, but it's so slow compared to Skyrim's combat, and you're constantly running backwards.

@Oldirtybearon said:

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Would you recommend a sneak+knife/sword character, or a sneak+bow character?

I've been extremely impressed with the combat improvements in Skyrim over Oblivion. That said, even a Bethesda fanboy like me gets frustrated at times.

I don't know if copying Dead Island would work, but some manner of limb differentiation would be nice. Make attacks to the head do more damage. This wouldn't logically apply to some creatures, like the Dwemer constructs; so give those opponents a different weak point that can be attacked for massive damage. Also, make it possible to cripple the legs of an enemy to slow it down. I love that you can cripple an enemy, but you have to have him nearly beat to reach that point.

Bethesda could crib these improvements straight from the Fallout games, and wouldn't even need to reach outside their own property.

@TerraMantis Keep in mind that Bethesda did this in Fallout 3 with VATS; you target a deathclaw's leg and shoot it to slow it down, but once you get into level 20 territory (and pick certain perks) you can just target them in the face and pop it like a pimple with a .308 round. The thing is that with alchemy, enchanting, and smithing in the picture it throws Dead Island's style of combat out the window. Everyone's gonna get the best weapon and improve it 'til it does 20,000 damage, so then why target an enemy specifically when you can go by the Gerstmann rule of playing and forget about buff/debuffs and hit the kill button?

How @Oldirtybearon plays is how I'm playing, but I'm not speaking for him, and he can agree with me or not when I say that purposely hindering yourself makes this game's combat that much more suspenseful. If you've got the best stuff then why not throw in your own personal achievement and run around in chef clothes for the hell of it? You're gonna get fucked up, but coming out of those skirmishes with a slit of health is pretty damn thrilling and funny.

arkham asylum/city, world of warcraft, any diablo/diablo2 clone, dark souls, mount and blade, dark messiah, darksiders, and even witcher/witcher 2, prince of persia or assasin's creed games handled melee combat far better imo. More recently kingdoms of amanlur seems to have a decent melee combat system too.

Also most fighting/arcade style games; obviously.

I'm tempted to give dead island another go but I played it for a few hours and all I remember doing was running up to enemies, whacking them in the head and then stepping back. Felt pretty similar to skyrim actually. Also annoying was the constant weapon durability crap.

@Brendan: It depends, really. Bows are good for long-distance sniping, but unless you're far along the skill tree, they can't do shit in a close-up fight. I'd recommend double daggers for personal engagements (not to mention the kill cams are awesome), because if you're upping your one-hand as well as your archery, they can do some massive damage. Especially with Dual Flurry. Another knock against archery is keeping a healthy stock of good arrows. You can find yourself only with Steel or Dwarven when coming up against high-level enemies, and once you lose the element of surprise you're pretty much done. Daedric Arrows are the best, but they're hard as hell to find.

So yeah, use a good Daedric bow for sniping, but try to sneak in and one-shot with the x15 backstab (x30 with Brotherhood Assassin gauntlets) with dual daggers, and you'll be the sneakiest of the sneaky killers.

@innacces14: I agree with you, although I would've probably taken free Light Armour perks if I got them. I decided to make a choice between Pickpocket and Light Armour (since you can only max out three, maybe four skill trees), so I naturally went with the one that lets me steal everyone's clothing and weapons and leaves them fighting with their fists.

@Oldirtybearon: Naturally, of course. haha Did you go for the Shadow Warrior perk by any chance?

Apparently I'm in the minority, feeling that the analog combat in Dead Island was nothing more than a gimmick. I played the game on PC and only bothered with analog combat for the achievement. The whole time I used felt like a chore to kill enemies. After that achievement popped I immediately switched back.

Then again I really didn't care for the game that much.

Bows in skyrim are actually really nicely done and the bow physics implement a reasonably nice parabolic trajectory. Although controlling the shot itself is quite limited.

@Brendan said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Would you recommend a sneak+knife/sword character, or a sneak+bow character?

Neither. Sneak requires a very boring levelling process; either do it the normal way or afk near a wall in a city, or summon familiar/backstab repeat. Sneak synchronizes best with light armor and daggers. The problem is that with light armor your defense is really awful until you put perks in it. Skyrim doesn't have any "vanish"/"distract" type ability so restealthing can be a HUGE pain. You have to keep running until the enemy "loses interest". Additionally stealth isn't really well done in skyrim compared to a game like thief/splinter cell/arkham city+asylum. At level 100 you can be right in front of your enemy with muffle and they won't see you.

Imo the most optimal build in skyrim is heavy armor with dual wield swords. Why heavy armor ? because it's better than light armor *without perks*; thereby saving you perk points. Swords with the 30% crit give you the highest average damage.

Put points next into one-handed 1st; all the way up to the 30% sword crit perks; and most of the stuff on the right side of the tree.

You should level smithing to 100 along with enchanting (very easy to do); and go down the daedric tree. And in enchants just get the right side trees until the dual enchant perk at the end.

After this you can put points into heavy armor and then alchemy as appropriate.

I think if the next elder scrolls were to take a page from another game for action they'd be better off with something like Condemned. It doesn't need a bunch of crazy dismemberment, just make sure every hit has impact to it and work on the animations.

I prefer skyrims combat.

@Brendan said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

I will never understand people not sneaking in these games. Sneak 100 breaks the game entirely, turning you into the Invisible Man. I have whistled dixie while I crawled a dungeon back-stabbing and slashing the throats of every bandit, highwayman, and undead wrinkly thing. Dave Snider wasn't kidding that with a total Stealth/Thief build, Skyrim turns into Thief 4.

Would you recommend a sneak+knife/sword character, or a sneak+bow character?

I'd suggest both. I mainly use a bow, but keep a knife with a soul trap ability handy for back attack instant kills, and quick soul gem recharges. I didn't power-level sneak, I just let it happen naturally. If you use it, you naturally get better. And bows can be really effective in Skyrim, especially once you have most of the archery and sneak skill trees filled.

I'd also suggest light armor over heavy, mainly because of how much inventory space you waste with heavy armor. Speaking of which, I strongly recommend leveling pickpocket up to 50, and getting the extra pockets perk.

If you level non-combat perks like speech/lockpicking/pickpocketing/stealth; you will eventually level your character from these. if you do so enemies will scale and become more powerful; but you will not. be very careful here; because doing it wrong will lead to the game rendered frustrating/unplayable. A huge exception here is smithing/enchanting because they actually indirectly increase your combat ability enormously.

Heavy armor is ALWAYS better than light armor since it provides a huge amount of protection with almost no perk investment; leaving you to put points in better perks. Any light armor playstyle will restrict you early on in having to put perks into it; and being totally fail until sneak is levelled.

Money is incredibly easy to make in skyrim so I really wouldn't bother with anything like stealing or complicated fencing quests, or pickpocketing, or even inventory space (for selling junk) or storage in houses.

1) Sell potions made by alchemy or looted potion that isn't a health potion; every other potion is pretty much useless.

2) Enchant an item, sell it (daggers are good for this).

Tomorrow there'll be an IGN article titled "What Skyrim could learn from Dead Island" 

@Neeshka: Your post made my heart sink. I hate it when people distill "the correct way" down to a binary system of A to B to C. There's no exploration, no experimentation, no care. Just follow what you saw on a forum for maximum dps and max damage resistance.

That's no way to play, man.

@Oldirtybearon said:

@Neeshka: Your post made my heart sink. I hate it when people distill "the correct way" down to a binary system of A to B to C. There's no exploration, no experimentation, no care. Just follow what you saw on a forum for maximum dps and max damage resistance.

That's no way to play, man.

If someone has difficulty with a game, or is looking for advice it's not wrong to point out the optimal way of doing things. If a game is good there are multiple "optimal paths". Suggesting suboptimal things isn't really useful if you're looking for ways to improve your game. There are a lot of people that want to play optimally, even in single player games. I don't understand why it's okay to give advice that actually makes the game harder for someone or is actually just wrong.

@ShadowConqueror said:

Skyrim needs more trucks, obviously.

Agreed, well said.

Who do you voodoo, bitch

Trucks and Boot Parties