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    Brink

    Game » consists of 10 releases. Released May 10, 2011

    A multiplayer-focused, class-based first-person shooter running on id Tech 4, in which oppressive soldiers and anarchistic terrorists battle for the few remaining resources on a failed paradise known as the Ark.

    Doom 3 (IdTech 4) Engine?

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    buzz_killington

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    #1  Edited By buzz_killington

    According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brink_(video_game)) it is based on the IdTech 4 engine. It doesn't look like it though, this game (judging from the screenshots) looks much better.
    But it makes sense, because Splash Damage's last game, Quake Wars, also used the same engine. But for a multiplayer focused game, that engine has a lot of limitaions. The frame rate in Quake Wars sometimes dropped real bad, so I don't know if they can make the game as cool as its initial screenshots...

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    Diamond

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    #2  Edited By Diamond

    I agree it looks nothing like idtech 4, and I'd be surprised if they're still using it.

    Maybe they finally optimized idtech 4 for modern GPUs and consoles?

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    _Phara0h_

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    #3  Edited By _Phara0h_

    I think you title needs some work.

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    Riotisonfire

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    #4  Edited By Riotisonfire

    wolfenstien is using id tech 4. and that game is looks great at smooth framerate. so for me there is no reason why brink cannot look at good as it does running on id tech 4

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    Lunarbunny

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    #5  Edited By Lunarbunny

    It could be GoldSrc style (GoldSrc was id Tech 1 with improvements from 2)

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    Karmum

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    #6  Edited By Karmum

    I'm pretty sure it is a heavily-modified version of the idTech 4 Engine. Take Splinter Cell: Conviction for example. I'm pretty sure it is still running on a heavy-modified version of Unreal Engine 2.5 (pretty sure it is called the LEAD engine), and it looks pretty good.

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    agentboolen

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    #7  Edited By agentboolen

    I'm lost are we talking about Doom 3 or something else!!!???

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    ZmillA

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    #8  Edited By ZmillA

     http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=191939&postcount=13
     "
    Its a heavily modified Quake Wars engine (idTech 4), its got a completely new renderer, new multi-core architecture (a job system for NUMA (PS3) and SMP systems), a new tools framework and lots more.

    We think its the best of both worlds, get tried and tested Quake Wars tech (its often underestimated how much time it takes to get shipping tech) but with new shiny bits where required.

    We hope the screen shots, show shiny new renderer is doing okay ;)
      "
     
    its always bettter to cite the source then to cite a source citing it ;)

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    jakob187

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    #9  Edited By jakob187

    I gotta say that I really dig the style of this game.  It's got a bit of Team Fortress 2 mixed in there, but it's just sharp looking.

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    BigLemon

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    #10  Edited By BigLemon

    whatever it is, it looks pretty damn smooth.

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    Dogstar060763

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    #11  Edited By Dogstar060763

    Brink definitely uses an iteration of idTech4 (which started life as the Doom3 engine). I'm a big, big fan of this game engine, tbh, and Doom3 in particular still remains one of my all-time favourites both for gameplay and for the beautiful visuals. A contemporary of Source and Unreal3, idtech4 offered dynamic light and shadows and some advanced normal-mapping techniques over it's competitors at the time (circa 2004). In the end, idtech4 lost out to both - Unreal3 has gone on to take the dominant place amongst third-party licensees, while Source has subsequently included most of idTech4's features such as dynamic lights/shadows.
     
    From what I've seen of Brink (not much, but I've seen most of the released videos to date) Splash Damage don't appear to have implemented what is possibly the engine's most celebrated assets - I can't see evidence of dynamic shadowing in any of the videos. A real shame and does make me wonder why - apart from their own experience with the game engine (numerous games developed for and published by id) - they decided to go with the same tech yet again. Splash Damage do have an inside track to id - and presumably Carmack himself - so I can only conclude they weighed up the options involved in switching out to a different game engine and decided to stick with what they know.
     
    So it is idTech4, but not really as we've known it to date.

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    mracoon

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    #12  Edited By mracoon

    BioShock was made with a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 2.5 so I wouldn't be surprised if this is true.

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    SeriouslyNow

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    #13  Edited By SeriouslyNow

    Dogstar knows what's up.  Splash Damage are about as close to iD as any other team can get (with the possible exception of Raven). And yeah Bioshock basically uses Unreal Warfare with the Unreal Engine 3 renderer, face animator and physics engine.  It's about as close as you can get to UE3 with low poly character models.  Which is why Bioshock looks like ass to my eyes.

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    Al3xand3r

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    #14  Edited By Al3xand3r

    No, he doesn't, because Splash Damage uses idtech4 great and is the first team to have succesfully used it for outdoor maps instead of Doom3's cramped environments.The dynamic lighting wasn't lost, it just doesn't work that way for large spaces, and trying to light up that sort of area with the same lighting small Doom 3 rooms did would both look wrong and bring most any PC to its knees. Quake Wars looked (and played, on PC at least) great and it seemed impossible that it was using the same engine as Doom 3 given its expansive levels, and Brink looks far better than that.

    Bioshock didn't have low poly character models and still used normal mapping. The engine had more or less the same feature set as UE3 for its core aspects, just not as well developed, it didn't have low poly anything as a feature. The character design was questionable but that's not the engine's fault. It's similar to the way Valve used the Havok physics engine for Half-Life 2, yet heavily upgraded it enough to make it on par with Havok 2. Havok 2 didn't exist when they started development therefor they basically made it out of Havok 1. Havok 2 isn't exactly the Source version of the engine, though it has many of the same features. They're basically alternate evolutionary paths, one of which became official from the parent company( Epic in Bioshock's case) while the other served its purpose for the company that licenced the then available older version.

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    pallorwag

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    #15  Edited By pallorwag

    Just because developers license an engine. Doesn't mean they can't tweak the settings. Most games using a licensed engine will adjust to their liking.

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    Alexander

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    #16  Edited By Alexander
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    Al3xand3r

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    #17  Edited By Al3xand3r

    Perhaps Return to Castle Wolfenstein would have been a better showcase of how one engine can look very different in different games.

    Modern Warfare is a good example of a company evolving an older licenced engine on their own enough to bring it up to speed without licencing a new version. It still has the id licensing on the box somewhere, if I'm not mistaken. Then again the Havok example I gave before is good too...

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    warxsnake

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    #18  Edited By warxsnake

    who cares 
     
    modern warfare 2. some people think it looks great (i think it looks ok). It is an in-house engine that was heavily modified off the quake III engine, and still has some legacy Q3 commands in it. Q3 engine is archaic. 
     
    as for brink, yeah it could very well be based on idtech 4, idtech 4, like the source engine, was among the first mainstream engines to introduce normal mapping and dynamic lighting, effects that all next-gen games to this day rely on. Add some post processing overlay effects, some SSAO, some -fake- indirect lighting and light maps, and allow the engine to churn higher amounts of polys by dynamically loading meshes, and dynamic loading of textures for shaders, among other stuff and you're good to go. 

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    Alexander

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    #19  Edited By Alexander
    @Al3xand3r: Call of Duty and it's expansion would have been one better. 
     
    [edit] also: no, take a look at some Elite Force II gameplay.
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    Dogstar060763

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    #20  Edited By Dogstar060763
    @Al3xand3r: Hmmm. I've heard it claimed before that Modern Warfare uses some vague version of idTech, but my research turned up a big fat 'no' - all I could establish was that the engine used was a proprietary engine developed in-house.
     
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Duty_4:_Modern_Warfare#Game_engine 
     
    Nothing to do with idTech at all, it seems.
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    Al3xand3r

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    #21  Edited By Al3xand3r

    They don't put this there just for the hell of it, they're obligated to:

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    SeriouslyNow

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    #22  Edited By SeriouslyNow
    @Al3xand3r said:
    " No, he doesn't, because Splash Damage uses idtech4 great and is the first team to have succesfully used it for outdoor maps instead of Doom3's cramped environments.The dynamic lighting wasn't lost, it just doesn't work that way for large spaces, and trying to light up that sort of area with the same lighting small Doom 3 rooms did would both look wrong and bring most any PC to its knees. Quake Wars looked (and played, on PC at least) great and it seemed impossible that it was using the same engine as Doom 3 given its expansive levels, and Brink looks far better than that.Bioshock didn't have low poly character models and still used normal mapping. The engine had more or less the same feature set as UE3 for its core aspects, just not as well developed, it didn't have low poly anything as a feature. The character design was questionable but that's not the engine's fault. It's similar to the way Valve used the Havok physics engine for Half-Life 2, yet heavily upgraded it enough to make it on par with Havok 2. Havok 2 didn't exist when they started development therefor they basically made it out of Havok 1. Havok 2 isn't exactly the Source version of the engine, though it has many of the same features. They're basically alternate evolutionary paths, one of which became official from the parent company( Epic in Bioshock's case) while the other served its purpose for the company that licenced the then available older version. "
    Uh, yes he does and you're sounding a little too much like a crazed zealot.  You're defending something that really wasn't being attacked.  There's nothing wrong with idtech4, it's a very capable and scalable engine.  This was amply proved in the early days of Doom III's release when the modders went crazy pulling off some lovely tech demos.  You're confusing game design and hardware limitations from 2003/4 with engine capabilites and the kind of hardware available since 2006.  It's completely unsurprising that idtech4, even if hadn't been heavily updated since Doom III and Quake IV's release (let alone the work done by IW and Treyarch on the fragment shader side of things), that it can now handle much more expansive environments.  Are you stuck in 2004? No, right.  Well neither is the technology that can run these larger, more complex maps and effects.
     
    Secondly, Bioshock's 'engine' doesn't have the same specs as UE3 more OR less it just has LESS.  It has has lower poly model rigging, lower specularity resolution and quite a few other features that indicate it's UW2.5 engine backbone.  You may not like that and it may make you feel defensive but it's the truth.  Also, VALVe never upgraded HAVOK, Havok is middleware and the developers of Havok also known as...Havok regularly update the middleware's featureset, it's just that VALVe decided to move up a couple of versions with the later revisions of Source because the newer Havok revisions used less memory, were multiprocessor/core aware and patched some latent bugs.  VALVe do not write the Havok engine but they do write and improve interfaces to it and how it's applied.
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    Dogstar060763

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    #23  Edited By Dogstar060763
    @Al3xand3r said:

    " They don't put this there just for the hell of it, they're obligated to:

    "
     
    That's very interesting to know. This is a real mystery. I know Activision have published iD games in the past and are listed here:
     
    http://www.idsoftware.com/business/friends/
     
    But Infinity ward are not listed by iD as a licensee of their game engine.
     
    Hmmm.
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    Al3xand3r

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    #24  Edited By Al3xand3r
    @Seriously Now : What I thought he's wrong about, is that he implied Brink was not a good showcase of idtech4, and in turn put down Splash Damage's skill (by saying things like "Splash Damage don't appear to have implemented what is possibly the engine's most celebrated assets"), even though it's the one company to have used it beyond what you'd think is possible looking at just Doom3 with titles like Quake Wars and now Brink. So, yes, there was an attack, you just choose to ignore it or agree with it even though it's blatantly false. And lol @ you implying the only reason idtech4 can run the huge environments of Quake Wars and Brink so well is the better hardware. The engine has been updated and has features specifically for such large open areas, like, I don't know, do MegaTextures ring a bell? That was also a "celebrated asset" of the engine and has been further improved for Brink among other things as it's clearly looking vastly superior to Quake Wars. Even if it's not going to be as good as id tech5, it will be out sooner than if they waited. Brink wouldn't exist right now if they had to wait for id tech 5. Feel free to hate them for wanting to develop games that are up to par thanks to their own updates instead of wait for newer "official" versions. I'd rather play their games instead. Here's an old and brief forum post about what updates they have done, I'm sure you can find more information if you look around. And here are some screenshots. It's a clearly updated engine. That exact content wouldn't look nearly as good if run in the Quake Wars version of the engine (and even worse in Doom 3) if only thanks to the lighting technology, and likely would bring any PC to its knees as they weren't yet optimised for such assets.

    Nowhere did I say that Bioshock's engine is just as good as Unreal Engine 3 (so, you're the zealot defending UE3's superiority that is already accepted), I only spoke of it having some of the same core features, ie, high polycounts, normal mapping, dynamic shadows, etc, which UE2.5 did not have (well, it did have high polycounts for its time). It's an alternate, and lower end, evolutionary path of the same engine from a different company. Not as good in everything, but perfectly capable of delivering the Bioshock experience. Changing engine would likely not make the game any different (hence they don't use UE3 for Bioshock 2 though their publisher certainly has licences, but the same engine they have presumably further improved), and a lot of what looks bad in it now would look bad in UE3 because it's a matter of the artists' skill. Like the characters. Since it runs so smooth even on relatively low end computers they could certainly push more polygons than the first game does if they actually wanted to, even if the engine as you say can handle less than UE3 (meh, I didn't think they still use hard coded limits outside the DS).

    Finally, you don't know what you're talkng about, when Half-Life 2 was developed Havok 2 did not exist and Valve, in collaboration with the creators of Havok heavily updated the engine during Source's development process, they didn't merely take all the updates ready from Havok and implement it. Source still uses Havok 1 as far as licensing goes (well they did last I checked, and at one point they did not intend to change either, perhaps they did in later iterations, but I was discussing the Half-Life 2 development anyway), but it's beyond anything stock Havok 1 could do. They specifically said they have no reason to upgrade to Havok 2 because their edition is good enough with all their upgrades. So, stop talking out of your ass with what you THINK instead of what you can easily KNOW, while putting others who do down. Try this on for size.

    "Since they licensed and integrated it into Source, Valve have been tweaking and adding to Havok to the point it's virtually a new animal. Almost every aspect of the Source engine follows on from the physics — including the sound, graphics, AI and animation. When asked whether or not they would be upgrading to Havok 2, Valve seemed to suggest they probably wouldn't, in part because H2 wouldn't be much of a step forward from what they currently have."

    Havok 2 spawned in part from that tight collaboration, but Havok 2 is NOT what Source used, and Havok 1 is NOT what Source used in practice even though it's what was licenced. It wouldn't have been hard to find this out instead of attack me just to defend your crap. It's a similar situation to Bioshock's Unreal Engine 2.5. It's an alternate, possibly lower end, evolutionary path of the same engine from a different company, a path the developers are happy enough with to not need the official new version of the respective engines (in this case Havok 2+, in Bioshock's case UE3+) since they're already heavily modified and integrated with features that fit their own games (like also adding Havok to Bioshock) which possibly means moving to a new engine wouldn't offer enough of an upgrade to make the work of tweaking it all over again worthwhile, as Valve stated.

    @Dogstar060763 : Call of Duty 1 used a closer to stock idtech3 so they most certainly have a licence even if they aren't listed.

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