Ok - they got $30 of my money, but would get around $100 if I knew this would get me Psychonauts 2. Note: The $100 does not even need to include Psychonauts 2. I would just pay $70 in bribe money....

Guys, they've raised $223,000 so far and it hasn't even cycled over to a new day.

This is fucking crazy.

@MariachiMacabre: @OllyOxenFree said:

@MariachiMacabre said:

@wumbo3000 said:

400 grand in 33 days? That seems like an impossible amount of money...But good luck to the Double Fine guys! Wish them the best!

They've made almost half already.

lol'd. wumbo3000 did not see that coming!

It jumped $24,000 in the time it took me to post the my first post....

@jaks said:

I love Tim Schafer but this seems crass as hell for a reasonably large company to be begging for money to make a game.

I don't think you understand what Kickstarter is or what the intent is, here.

Is it "crass" when Jerry Pournell sells his books directly on Amazon/Kindle for $3, because he can make his $2.70 per book from that rather than handing it to his publisher and having the publisher do whatever they do, sell the book for $20, and he still only makes $2.70? The only difference is that middlemen are involved in one and not the other and the customer pays $3 in one and $17 in the other.

I mean, you can't be new to the concept of Kickstarter, right? What is the problem you have with someone making a product and asking people to buy it? That's the entire idea behind GiantBomb subscriptions, for that matter. It makes YOU the customer, instead of making the ADVERTISER/PUBLISHER the customer.

If you find this crass, you are going to really hate the future, because middle-men are no longer necessary and people are selling their games online already. And their movies, books, and music, too. And they are involving their fans and customers in the process of making, testing, reviewing, producing, and funding products. Value for value. It's the way the world works.

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Branthog said:

@jaks said:

I love Tim Schafer but this seems crass as hell for a reasonably large company to be begging for money to make a game.

I don't think you understand what Kickstarter is or what the intent is, here.

Is it "crass" when Jerry Pournell sells his books directly on Amazon/Kindle for $3, because he can make his $2.70 per book from that rather than handing it to his publisher and having the publisher do whatever they do, sell the book for $20, and he still only makes $2.70? The only difference is that middlemen are involved in one and not the other and the customer pays $3 in one and $17 in the other.

I mean, you can't be new to the concept of Kickstarter, right? What is the problem you have with someone making a product and asking people to buy it? That's the entire idea behind GiantBomb subscriptions, for that matter. It makes YOU the customer, instead of making the ADVERTISER/PUBLISHER the customer.

If you find this crass, you are going to really hate the future, because middle-men are no longer necessary and people are selling their games online already. And their movies, books, and music, too. And they are involving their fans and customers in the process of making, testing, reviewing, producing, and funding products. Value for value. It's the way the world works.

Nice idea but the comparison isn't apt at all. For one Jerry Pournelle is an established writer who has fucked his publisher in the arse in order to sell his books on Amazon because it makes more immediate in pocket money for him. Amazon didn't get him agents and editors and magazine articles and press junkets and worldwide media attention, his publishers did. In that example Jerry Pournelle (a writer who I admire and respect) is actually damaging the writing profession as a whole by turning his books into little more than a dollar for dollar competitor to Hello Kitty dildos just so he can pocket some money quickly. For another, Kickstarter is nothing like Amazon because it doesn't sell anything, it escrows funds on behalf of investors and developers in the hopes that projects will earn enough capital to get up and running. That developers then give their investors products and other stuff after the fact doesn't automatically turn Kickstarter into an online retailer. Double Fine aren't selling their product through Kickstarter, they are selling the idea of the product being made. Once it is made it will be sold through other channels entirely (Amazon might even be one of those). If the project doesn't get the 400K needed to get started, nobody gets anything at all. That's how Kickstarter works, Are YOU new to the concept of Kickstarter? Now, don't get me wrong, I utterly support the idea of DF working with Kickstarter to get a game published and I love that they are bringing more attention to the Kickstarter program in doing but your comparison is poor and misleading.

Everything he said.

p.s. we're at $235,000 now.

@Kevin_Cogneto said:

@Branthog: Kind of an strange point to be making, considering that this whole thing is going through Kickstarter, which is exactly the sort of middleman that you're railing against. Those infrastructure costs will always exist, just in different and ever-evolving forms.

It is absurd to compare a service that helps you raise funds and process credit card payments (not cheap to do on your own) with all the middle-men involved in putting out an album, movie, book or video game. Here is a simple comparison (one I used earlier in another post). Jerry Pournell (the famous science fiction and tech writer) would get a decent royalty on each book sale. On a $30 book, he might get around $3. The other $27 goes to everyone else involved in the process. With the internet, he can put it on Amazon Kindle for $4 and Amazon would take $1.20 and Jerry would get $3.80. The book costs $26 less, but Jerry makes more. Amazon is still technically a "middleman" in as much as they provide a market for him to sell his product through and provide the payment processing, but you seriously can't compare that to the traditional middle-men that make a book unnecessarily expensive.

Pournell has been pretty vocal in his happiness with this system over the old-school system, where everyone gets screwed (and it's the same in all the other mediums, such as music and games).

Kickstarter takes 5% of what you raise, if you reach your goal. Amazon (processes the credit card transactions) takes about another 3%. Yeah, that sucks. It's a total of 8%. However, the absolute cheapest you could do this on your own if you wanted to remove all "middlemen" (which, again, Kickstarter and Amazon are not, because they have nothing to do with anything other than processing your payments) would still require that you pay to setup and run your own site, setup a merchant account, and *still* pay several percent to VISA and whatever other payment processing you had to do.

So, let's be crazy and consider Kickstarter to be a "middleman". Let's say they're going to take 8%. You keep 92% to develop the game and do whatever else the developer wants to do with it. And, fo course, you dont' have to use kickstarter. The point isn't that the future is "kickstarter". It's that the future is *fans/customers* funding things directly.

So, you decide you're going to make a game I'm super interested in, but you need money to do it. Here's my $60. I can't wait to play in a couple years! You get to keep $55.20 of that after all the payment processing stuff.

Now, traditionally (with publishers, store shelves, distribution, marketing, etc), here's what happens to that $60:

• 20% goes to the console manufacturer (Microsoft, Sony, etc).
• 20% goes to the retailer.
• 45% goes to the publisher and marketing.
• 15% goes to the developer. (This amounts to about $9)

So, let's see:

• Directly funded by your fan base and ditching the out-dated middlemen? The developer has control over $55.20 of $60.
• Letting the middlemen call the shots? You have control over $9.

This game is going to be around $300k (the other $100k was for the documentary, remember). So with $300k:

• Double Fine has control over $276,000 by doing this on their own directly partnering with their customers.
• With the traditional publishing method, Double Fine has control over $27,000.

Most importantly, in one situation, a bunch of suits with other motives call the shots on the game's theme, art-style, content, etc. With the new business model, Double Fine's only obligation is to their fans and customers.

245, 000!!!

I am so absolutely thrilled for Double Fine. This is like the gamer feel good equivalent of It's A Wonderful Life.

I'm in!

Gave $15, it's rapidly approaching $300k, I love you all. :)

They'll meet that goal in less than 24 hours. Hot damn.

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Branthog said:

@jaks said:

I love Tim Schafer but this seems crass as hell for a reasonably large company to be begging for money to make a game.

I don't think you understand what Kickstarter is or what the intent is, here.

Is it "crass" when Jerry Pournell sells his books directly on Amazon/Kindle for $3, because he can make his $2.70 per book from that rather than handing it to his publisher and having the publisher do whatever they do, sell the book for $20, and he still only makes $2.70? The only difference is that middlemen are involved in one and not the other and the customer pays $3 in one and $17 in the other.

I mean, you can't be new to the concept of Kickstarter, right? What is the problem you have with someone making a product and asking people to buy it? That's the entire idea behind GiantBomb subscriptions, for that matter. It makes YOU the customer, instead of making the ADVERTISER/PUBLISHER the customer.

If you find this crass, you are going to really hate the future, because middle-men are no longer necessary and people are selling their games online already. And their movies, books, and music, too. And they are involving their fans and customers in the process of making, testing, reviewing, producing, and funding products. Value for value. It's the way the world works.

Nice idea but the comparison isn't apt at all. For one Jerry Pournelle is an established writer who has fucked his publisher in the arse in order to sell his books on Amazon because it makes more immediate in pocket money for him. Amazon didn't get him agents and editors and magazine articles and press junkets and worldwide media attention, his publishers did. In that example Jerry Pournelle (a writer who I admire and respect) is actually damaging the writing profession as a whole by turning his books into little more than a dollar for dollar competitor to Hello Kitty dildos just so he can pocket some money quickly. For another, Kickstarter is nothing like Amazon because it doesn't sell anything, it escrows funds on behalf of investors and developers in the hopes that projects will earn enough capital to get up and running. That developers then give their investors products and other stuff after the fact doesn't automatically turn Kickstarter into an online retailer. Double Fine aren't selling their product through Kickstarter, they are selling the idea of the product being made. Once it is made it will be sold through other channels entirely (Amazon might even be one of those). If the project doesn't get the 400K needed to get started, nobody gets anything at all. That's how Kickstarter works, Are YOU new to the concept of Kickstarter? Now, don't get me wrong, I utterly support the idea of DF working with Kickstarter to get a game published and I love that they are bringing more attention to the Kickstarter program in doing but your comparison is poor and misleading.

You're just fucking nit-picking for the sake of it. Of course Kickstarter and Amazon don't provide exactly the same services, but the high-level point I was trying to make is that to the "customer", a product is being sold in both cases. In one, immediately processed and delivered while in the other, only after and if the goal is met. I'm pretty sure almost everyone knows how Kickstarter works. It has been around for awhile. The point isn't the specifics of the merchant you are using and the payment processing you are using, but that you are using some facility to negotiate the basic transactions to get as close as you can do the customer/fan as possible. Yes, yes, Amazon is a storefront (and a payment processor) and Kickstarter sort of removes themselves by one step to provide an escrowing service until/unless a goal is met (and uses amazon as payment processor), but I didn't see how going into that detail was necessary for the response the original commenter required.

As for Pournelle fucking his publisher in the ass? Are you serious? Pournelle owns the rights to his own work and has the right to distribute them however the hell he wants. He had the foresight to retain all other rights to his work (and, I believe, to have the regular publishing rights revert to him after a certain time, which is something a lot of authors don't bother to negotiate -- especially freelancers and columnists). You seem to be suggesting that Pournelle is fucking someone in the ass, because he isn't artificially inflating the cost of his books. He has decided that three bucks is enough money for him and that's what he's selling his book for. That's borderline "linux sucks, because nothing that is free could be any good!" logic.

Also, of course Double Fine is selling a product through kick starter. Saying that they're only selling "the idea of it" is like saying that I am only buying the "idea of a microwave" from Amazon, until that shipment is actually fulfilled, because until it's at my doorstep, they might run out of the product. For $15, you get a copy of the game, if they meet the goal they need to hit in order to fund the game's development. That sounds like selling a product, to me. Of course, Kickstarter isn't really selling a product, because their involvement is kind of abstracted a level above that. But Double Fine is essentially selling you the product (or service, in the case of some other price levels).

But go on nit-picking, because restating essentially what we've both already said is terribly enthralling.

Oh man, what a great day it must be for Double Fine. I've been refreshing Tim Schafer's Twitter page and the kickstater page as well, I love reading Tim's reaction to the donations. I fully support DF, I love those guys and I love the way they did this project with the whole behind the scenes videos they are going to be shooting. I'm really happy for them! ADVENTURE GAMESSSSSS <3

@Branthog: First of all, none of the people you've been citing (including Tim Schafer and Double Fine) would even have a fan base if they hadn't been availing themselves of one form of massive marketing machine or another for all those years. Sure, it's great that we're at a point that established artists can break out on their own. But it really only works if you're already established. Most of your examples are still relying on the residual brand recognition that they've built over the years, thanks in large part to the "middlemen" that they've left behind.

Second, you're ignoring the most important reason why your model often isn't a great idea, and that's risk. The publishers keep most of the money, because they take most of the risk. When you place that burden of risk on the developer, what happens when there's a failure? If Double Fine had self-published Brutal Legend, we wouldn't be here talking about this amazing Kickstarter story because they'd be long out of business.

Lastly, the fact of the matter is that a small percentage of a massive pie is often much better than a huge percentage of a tiny pie. Those marketing dollars sell units, much as you might dislike the idea. And even if you're roughly breaking even (say, 10% gross profit on 10 million units sold vs. 50% gross profit on 2 million units sold), going with the larger publisher is often going to be more beneficial because it expands your brand.

Look, I think this model is definitely interesting, and I sincerely hope it paves the way for new funding models for indie games. But this is not a magic wand, as you seem to think it is.

@Coafi said:

Oh man, what a great day it must be for Double Fine. I've been refreshing Tim Schafer's Twitter page and the kickstater page as well, I love reading Tim's reaction to the donations. I fully support DF, I love those guys and I love the way they did this project with the whole behind the scenes videos they are going to be shooting. I'm really happy for them! ADVENTURE GAMESSSSSS <3

Agreed (though I think we continue to do a disservice by labeling the payments as donations). I've said many times around here over the years that I am fucking tired of those god damned four minute "behind the scenes/developer's diaries" pieces of shit put out by marketing teams that tell you fucking nothing and are essentially just long trailers/commercials, instead of meaningful behind-the-scenes pieces. I've wanted someone like GiantBomb to do a regular feature that is the real deal version of that. Or for Sony to ditch that "Tester" bullshit and provide a sort of monthly hour-long documentary behind the scenes of developing a particular game or at a particular developer.

So, to read Tim Schafer to repeat almost verbatim the same complaint I've had about those "developer's diaries" things was refreshing. Honestly, I'd pay some decent subscription or something just for a steady stream of documentaries from different developers, even without the game itself.

@Branthog: Supergiant Games along with Giantbomb did some decent behind the scenes coverage for Bastion.

It's kind of sweet to read Tim's posts, tonight:

(Also, @Notch did confirm that he pledged $10,000 - but only asked for the painting, instead of the lunch.)

1. These things take time to figure out--if they can be figured out--so please don’t expect any Psychonauts 2 announcements any time soon.
2. (Or “PsychoNotch” as he’s insisting we call it. The guy is a hard negotiator, let me tell you. And that ego!)
3. But… on the topic of using non-traditional game funding to fulfill fan requests, we WILL be making an announcement later today!
4. Okay, so, announcement time!
5. Announcement! Double Fine and 2 Player Productions will use Kickstarter to fund an Adventure Game + documentary! Whoa.
6. Holy smokes, we just hit $100k!!! I think that's higher than the budget of Monkey Island! Adventure gaaaaaaames!!!
7. Wow, thanks to all the Backers of our Kickstarter project! You guys are going to make me tear up. If I weren't so damn tough, I mean.
8. I can't peel myself away!
9. notchxenparadox We reserve the right to draft you.
10. We just hit $200k...you guys... Oh man. I have to warn you, I always cry at the end of It's a Wonderful Life. :')

@Legend said:

@Zabant

I am incredibly happy to give them my $15. If it means that I can get a new point and click adventure game developed by the creators of the Monkey Island games? sold. Plus to me it just feels like I am pre-ordering the game rather than donating or something.

Wow, so many donations already, they'll be reaching this goal in no time.

@Branthog: Well, I didn't know what to call it, I know it's not a donation, it's more us (the audience/ gamers) funding it. I'm not really sure how to call it. When I saw the video on their kickstater page I was sold. I think those guys at 2 player productions know their stuff, and I hope the $100,000 they are asking for video production helps them make a pretty solid behind the scene videos.

@jaks said:

I love Tim Schafer but this seems crass as hell for a reasonably large company to be begging for money to make a game.

pretty much.

The video for this is kind of hidden in the logo on the kickstarter site, for those who didn't bother to watch it, here:

(it's great!)

I guess I do not see how they are begging for money since if the $15 is given, one will acquire the game and the documentary when released.

@Branthog said:

By the way, is anyone else's eyes always drawn to the stunning employee who is third from the left in the very front row every time they see that Double-Fine group picture? My god, I'm working at the wrong company.

You mean the ratio of men to women is WORSE than 50:1 at your company? That DOES sound pretty bad.

@bobafettjm: Yeah. You you get a copy of the game, access to the beta and documentary covering the development, and in turn they get to create and release a game they otherwise wouldn't have directly for and to the fans who've always wanted another Tim Schafer & Ron Gilbert adventure game. That's fucking outstanding. How can anyone turn that into something negative? It's a dream come true.

I don't see this as begging. I see this as them asking the people that are crying out for shit like this to put their money where their mouth is and to take all the risk and get the rewards as well. If you donate 15 bucks you get the game anyway. If you donate more you obviously have a more integral part in the process and get a few extra little things as well. Granted people could be self entitled pricks and think that they should get a cut of the profits as well because they donated their little 15 bucks, but the internet is full of self entitled pricks. Fund the project if you want to, and don't if you don't want to. But at least admit that it takes balls to do something like this.

This isn't about removing the middle man. This is all about people wanting something, wanting to make that thing for the people, but ultimately asking them to back up their stance. I seriously doubt that DF is going to develop everything like this, but out there projects obviously need it since creativity is stagnant for the most part in the game industry. Everything is trying to be CoD or beat CoD. If it isn't an FPS and if it can't do that then publishers just figure "Fuck it. Not worth it."

I used the last bit of my year end cash back from my credit card to pay my $15.  I'm bad at adventure games but I love them, and I'm definitely looking forward to following this one along.

I gave $15 bucks. I loved the Monkey Island series and I respect what DF as a small publisher represents. I could care less about development videos, I'm paying 15 bucks for an adventure game that will provide GOOD nostalgia from my youth. It would cost 15 to buy upon release anyways, if you like the sound of a product, support it.

Only 15$ but I'd be dammed if I didnt help that project ... and I can for the life of me not understand why anyone would think this is something negative ... this is awesome, we can finally cut out the stupid publishers.

Nice idea and a novel approach at raising cash from two potential revenue streams from one project. Just think of what Double Fine could do with the outstanding leadership, staff, and creativity if they stopped sitting at the kids table and mustered up some real investors with deep pockets. Put me down for a percentage of Psychonauts 2 and I'll call my accountant.

Put 250 bones where my mouth is.

Hope it does not suck ;-)

$100 donation, right here. Here's to hoping the game turns out well. Given the way things are going, there's little doubt that the donation goal is going to be reached. My question is how much over the target amount the donation total will go.

@pyide said:

The video for this is kind of hidden in the logo on the kickstarter site, for those who didn't bother to watch it, here:

(it's great!)

It's something that lives in your dreams, your memories, Germany.

Donation made. Take my fucking money you glorious bastard.

Pledged $15 here. No brainer really.

@pyide: That video was awesome. I want to give him all my money right NOW!

@wumbo3000 said:

400 grand in 33 days? That seems like an impossible amount of money...But good luck to the Double Fine guys! Wish them the best!

290k in mere hours. Maybe this will be new way for games?

@Grimluck343 said:

@pyide said:

The video for this is kind of hidden in the logo on the kickstarter site, for those who didn't bother to watch it, here:

(it's great!)

It's something that lives in your dreams, your memories, Germany.

Donation made. Take my fucking money you glorious bastard.

Agreed. That video made me involuntarily take out my wallet and throw money at my monitor.

I'd be more interested in becoming a full-fledged investor and seeing a return from it. I have faith in Double-Fine and their ability to make awesome games; they just rarely make an awesome game that appeals to me.

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Branthog: It's not nitpicking it's pointing out that you're talking like a zealot and completely confusing everything in the same breath. People who put down $100 know they're investors and don't expect anything. They are not customers though they may eventually become customers. People can think beyond simple analogies and when you talk like they can't (as you're doing with your 'high level' concept bs) you're insulting them and adding needless mystique to things which are simple, plain and clear. You think that 400K cuts out the middlemen? You think it stops Apple from taking a cut of iOS version or Steam taking a cut for the Steam version? It doesn't, every publisher and middle-ground person in the process will still get their %ge. What Kickstarter does in this instance is allow DF to get the ball rolling more quickly, because they don't need to go to other sources for startup funds.

People who put down $100 are expecting that if the goal is reached, they're going to get a game, the HD download, and the poster. That's all they're investing in (other than supporting the principal of it all).

No, I suppose you're unlikely to get rid of retailers, who are in the business of selling stuff for a profit. That's fair. However, publishers are in the business of getting your game on physical store shelves and providing capital for game development. In return, accounting for half the price of the game and exerting significant influence and control over development.

Almost everyone will still need retailers and there's nothing wrong with Steam or Amazon taking a cut for selling your product. Fewer people need publishers. They are no longer the gatekeeper to the customer, in a world where you can reach out directly to your audience. Physical shelf presence isn't terribly important for PC anymore and it'll be lessened for consoles in the future, too. If you can also account for funding your game (either you have enough capital of your own or you reach out directly to your fans/customers), then you can likely dismiss publishers entirely. This is a good thing. The same way getting rid of advertisers and being funded by your audience is a good thing (so you are obliged to serving your audience, instead of serving your audience to your advertisers).

So . . . I'm not really seeing why they need to involve publishers, unless they eventually decide to put it on some platform which absolutely requires publisher negotiation. But that wouldn't be the case on PC, which is what they're primarily developing for first, here.

@onan said:

@Branthog said:

By the way, is anyone else's eyes always drawn to the stunning employee who is third from the left in the very front row every time they see that Double-Fine group picture? My god, I'm working at the wrong company.

You mean the ratio of men to women is WORSE than 50:1 at your company? That DOES sound pretty bad.

No, there are lots of women at my company, but mostly older and . . . we're mostly a company full of engineers/developers. So . . . yeeeeah.

300k just reached

@Coafi said:

@Branthog: Well, I didn't know what to call it, I know it's not a donation, it's more us (the audience/ gamers) funding it. I'm not really sure how to call it. When I saw the video on their kickstater page I was sold. I think those guys at 2 player productions know their stuff, and I hope the $100,000 they are asking for video production helps them make a pretty solid behind the scene videos.

The $100k for doing the documentary seemed a bit high, but I guess if it's over the period of almost a year, it could involve a lot of work. It just seems that in a digital world where you dont' have the crazy expense that came with film, it should be cheaper. Or maybe it's going to be like a weekly thing. Who knows how much content that's going to end up being?! For $100k, it's gotta be a lot, right?

I noticed that those guys also did a documentary on Notch . . . hm . . .

Holy banana. I just woke up, read about it, and they already almost hit the 300 mark. I'll donate $15 later today, although I doubt I'll be able to play the game on this laptop.

Fascinating though, that we had a discussion about whether crowdsourcing a larger game would work or not. Apparently, it can work. That's goddamn awesome. @Sunjammer

Over 300k folks. This is fucking insane and I'm loving every minute of it. I hope they raise enough to port the game to Mac and iOS.

@Branthog said:

The $100k for doing the documentary seemed a bit high, but I guess if it's over the period of almost a year, it could involve a lot of work. It just seems that in a digital world where you dont' have the crazy expense that came with film, it should be cheaper. Or maybe it's going to be like a weekly thing. Who knows how much content that's going to end up being?! For $100k, it's gotta be a lot, right?

I noticed that those guys also did a documentary on Notch . . . hm . . .

Seems like it wouldn't be enough when you figure in the hours of work for a small crew, equipment, storage, and bandwidth for delivering HD content. If you want to check out some of their work right now, they did the first season of the Penny Arcade series. Quality stuff, whether you like those guys or not. Really looking forward to these docs.

@Branthog said:

The $100k for doing the documentary seemed a bit high, but I guess if it's over the period of almost a year, it could involve a lot of work. It just seems that in a digital world where you dont' have the crazy expense that came with film, it should be cheaper. Or maybe it's going to be like a weekly thing. Who knows how much content that's going to end up being?! For $100k, it's gotta be a lot, right?

I noticed that those guys also did a documentary on Notch . . . hm . . .

Seems like it wouldn't be enough when you figure in the hours of work for a small crew, equipment, storage, and bandwidth for delivering HD content. If you want to check out some of their work right now, they did the first season of the Penny Arcade series. Quality stuff, whether you like those guys or not. Really looking forward to these docs.

As if the game wasn't reason enough to show my support, I loved the "Building the Bastion" documentary and to see behind the scenes on my dream Double Fine game? Damn right I'll thrown down.