Bombcast Mass Effect 3 controversy

There is a pretty big difference between not liking an ending and demanding it should be changed. Jeff said the ending wasn't great, but that doesn't mean he wants people mobbing up and bitching to get it changed. Even though the other guys haven't finished it, they realize that all this drama is dumb and needs to stop. They probably won't like the ending either, but they are smarter, more sensible people than every person who signed that stupid petition.

@Apathylad said:

I don't have to play Mass Effect 3 to believe that the petition business is silly. Just like with any other medium, there's bound to be stupid endings to popular franchises. I liked the first two Spider-Man movies, but I'm going to start a campaign to have Sam Raimi reshoot the stuff I didn't like about the third film.

Spider-man 3 was bad, but didn't utterly destroy the Spider-man universe to the point where no sequels could ever exist.

The whole concept of changing the end of a game because people don't like it is insane. I have no wish to play this game, but this whole attitude of complaining until they make it like you want is incredibly immature.

I'm tired of ME3 discussion as well, but some people are still miffed, and rightfully so. I don't get why there is hate for the petition, unless it's about it making the ending happy or something whine-ish like that. I also don't get why people act like this whole controversy is "entitled" fans fault, but people will be irrational, I guess. I would like a more positive and upbeat conversation, though.

@Animasta said:

overall bioware shouldn't listen to fans anyway, this is how DA2 gets created

Could you explain this one?

@LordXavierBritish said:

@CL60: All of those arguments are really, really bad.

"It's okay there was a Deus Ex Machina guys, it was in since the beginning!"

Yes, the beginning of the end of a trilogy. The perfect time to justify everything with space magic.

Man I thought that PA site was better than this, this isn't news. It's just a fan boy trying to justify terrible writing.

You know, you posted a few threads about how Mass Effect 3 was going to be shit. After playing it, I had completely disregarded your opinion. After completing it... I still don't totally agree with you, but my opinion doesn't fall on the opposite end of the spectrum either.

As compared to other games, the third game was good. Not great, but it was a good experience. But as compared to the first two games, it's approaching mediocrity. The writing is where I take particular issue - it fluctuates between "good enough" and "downright shit" and the shittiest parts are the ones that are meant to have the most impact. The dialogue just isn't very well written for me, and then the ending. I'm not going to claim that I have any right to tell Bioware to change it, but I am going to claim the right of opinion. It doesn't make a whole lot of bloody sense and on that aspect, I agree with you. It's just a lackluster way to end what should have been a great series. I knew going in that there would be a deus ex machina, but I just wish it had been one that was better explained and more exciting, not consisting of Space Casper and his Giant Fucking Solution Button.

Hey look, science fiction that is ranges from amazing to poorly written.

Bizarre.

@GlenTennis said:

I have not finished the game yet, but let me say this. There is literally no single way that game could end for me to want to change it. It could have all been a dream in an autistic kid's snowglobe for all I care. This is a work (of art?) that someone has put time into. You don't like the end of it? Sure! Go ahead! Don't like it! But to demand that they change it?! That's b to the s. Gamer's entitlement at it's worst. Now I'm leaving this thread because A) I don't want to be spoiled and B) I have to go talk with some Krogans.

This.

@Kevin_Cogneto said:

"It's a stupid idea to change the ending to an existing game no matter how bad it is."

Fallout 3.

@Sargus said:

@Animasta said:

@Sargus: they're "demands" mean nothing though. Sure, using demand instead of request certainly gives them an air of entitlement, but they're "demands" are nothing more than requests, because that's all they can realistically do.

would using request instead of demand suddenly make it ok?

No, it would just be a slightly more polite way of making a completely ridiculous wish. I'm not going to "request" the ending of To Kill a Mockingbird be changed. It's an idiotic notion. I completely understand the disappointment in the ending and the speaking out against it... But there are no do-overs.

It's funny... I wonder how many people who "request" a different ending to Mass Effect are the same people who throw huge fits every time Lucas changes something in Star Wars. He gets tons and tons of crap for even the smallest changes because it's well-known that you're not supposed to go back and tinker with an existing story. It's bad form and never works out well. Yet people want Bioware to rewrite the ending to the trilogy they've been building for years. It just makes no sense.

Sorry mate, but not the same thing. To Kill a Mockingbird didn't have an ending, and it was also terrible, but most of all, it was a work of literature. But to point something out...remember that ME book that was so bad, fans forced it to be recognised as such? There's an example that straight fucks that perception. Doing it over might be the only way Bioware can get an semblance of dignity back for their writing, as this was woefully underthought and poorly executed, in fact, even mentioning great literature in relation to it is an insult to even the most overrated of literary feats. If something is sloppy and wrong, point it out, crucify it, or order it to be changed, because honestly, any ending like this never had anything beyond a misguided, artsy vision, that was never thought out well enough, with the writing chops to back it up. The writer was seemingly out of his depth, and delivered a horribly cliched and series shattering end that people deserve to be pissed about.

Also, this wasn't an ending being built for years, as files may have been found from the original ending, where this shit still happens, but does so in a better explained, more drawn out affair, where your readiness and all that lark changes how events play out. Harbringer makes an appearance, the Illusive man is controlled by him, your squadmates are with you potentially. All of this seems to point to the fact that the game ending was supposed to be better explained and varied, with the decisions you've made. And even at that, star child wasn't something that needed be built up to...because it was pulled out of nowhere. There's no way any race could have known that the catalyst was star child, they were just utilizing dark energy to decimate the reapers. Star childs existence is also highly questionable in origin, because it is never really explained why he was created in the first place. On top of that, the ending renders all of the ME series null and void, as any choice you make, beyond the least likely 'control the reapers' option, destroys every mass relay and ends galactic civilisation as it was known, leaving every race in that decimated fleet stranded on earth, never able to return home, having their races die out slowly, more than exterminated quickly, makes you just as bad, if not worse, than the reapers. I didn't want to play god again, not in ME3, not like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and even then, I, like many others, wanted closure. We didn't get it, and I'd fully back anyone willing to sign a petition, as it shows that people know the writing was amateur and based around circular logic. It probably won't do any good, but I'd like to see some action to spread the word that this writing was so bad, it got people this goddamn upset.

They aren't tinkering with an existing story, as the ending has already destroyed the story of Mass Effect as a whole. People just want it fixed, they want to see a cohesive vision come together...what they got reeks of laziness and a sense of a 'lets just write any ending, and go home' mentality, hell, even an ending where Harbringer appears and actually speaks would be better, you know, seeing as he was the villain for the entirety of ME2, and we never hear from him again? This entire game seems to have forgotten its own plot, capping it all off in the mother of all middle fingers to the audience. Nothing in this game was ever properly alluded to, the structure was weird, and really and truly, the game plot seems to have jumped the shark entirely from the get-go, so yes, I do think that it should be fixed, as the established canon is roundabout and stupid. They did it for Fallout 3, the BS ending was changed because Obsidean acknowledged their mistake. All it would take is a sign of good will from Bioware, and this could all be fixed. I think it's the right call.

@Sargus said:

@GlenTennis said:

I have not finished the game yet, but let me say this. There is literally no single way that game could end for me to want to change it. It could have all been a dream in an autistic kid's snowglobe for all I care. This is a work (of art?) that someone has put time into. You don't like the end of it? Sure! Go ahead! Don't like it! But to demand that they change it?! That's b to the s. Gamer's entitlement at it's worst. Now I'm leaving this thread because A) I don't want to be spoiled and B) I have to go talk with some Krogans.

Yep. This.

I'm not going to demand the end of To Kill a Mockingbird is rewritten so things end happier, like I'd want them to. I'm not going to demand a new ending Se7en. I'm not going to demand a new ending to The Sopranos. I'm not going to demand a new ending to Mass Effect 3.

We're talking about a creative work, a narrative, that other people have created. They have let you have many choices within that narrative, because that was their choice, but it is not YOUR story. You do not deserve special treatment because you don't like the ending. You are 100% free to dislike it, absolutely. But you are not free to change it.

I don't know if you've finished it or not, but the complaints aren't about it being a sad ending or just a tad disappointing. The last 10 minutes of this game are so mind blowingly awful I can't even believe it was the same writers who wrote some amazing moments in this game (damn, those last few minutes on Tunchanka). The ending has literally soured my entire experience of what was otherwise a fantastic game, and one of my favourite series' of all time.

I'm sceptical on the indoctrination theories but I really hope they're true, especially now that dev's are hinting at it on Twitter. A DLC, expansion pack (considering Dragon Age: Awakening...) or hell, ME4 would be fantastic. I'm not sitting here demanding a new ending, but i think this series deserves one better than it got.

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta Patrick appears to be playing Mass Effect 3 so he can get mad. He doesn't appear to enjoy anything about it, he's not like "oh sick, Garrus is awesome." it's just "there was a conversation about a refund are you kidding?!"

I was kind of mad when he was complaining about that because that refund guy is a running joke since the first Mass Effect. At the same time, I can't really be that mad because only a crazy Mass Effect fan like me would even get that joke.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm not saying I'm entitled to anything. In the end, this is 100% Bioware's call and it's their right to end the game as they see fit.

But as someone who spent money on the game, it's also my right to complain about it. I'm saying that ME3's ending is terrible and kills my enthusiasm for the Mass Effect series, and a different ending would make it a better game. I honestly don't expect Bioware to change it (and I'm not sure it's technically possible), but goddamn I wish they would.

Y'know, everyone bringing up Fallout 3...raises a good point. Broken Steel legitimately fixes one of the worst bits of in-game logic ever to hit a game's ending, and suddenly the whole thing becomes a lot more palatable. I haven't finished ME3 yet, and I was firmly on the side of "don't change it, Mass Effect clearly just has a shitty ending," but maybe that's one of the things video games could do that other media cannot. I think I still stand on the "ME just has a shitty ending deal with it" side, but I'm becoming more open to the alternative.

That said, if you don't like the ending, change how it ends when you tell it to other people. If you're just hoarding all these stories for yourself, you're missing the best part of stories: the telling. Share your Shepard's experience. And totally tell people how awesome Commander Shepard's time on the Normandy was, if that's what resonates with you. That's how stories used to evolve; people used to take the parts they liked and change the parts they didn't, but it was all individual. On a large scale, video games can be this in a way other media can't, as large-scale patches and DLC can release to folks on a wide scale. Personally, this whole thing is just pushing me towards games with less explicit stories.

As someone who is quite upset over the ending I guess I would say that I don't feel "entitled" to a new ending I just want an explanation. I want to know why the sudden and cluster fuck of the ending, was it a deadline issue or was it that from the beginning? As a huge fan of Mass Effect I'm just wondering why this massive and deep universe was giving such a shitty ending. Though I am coming around to the idea BioWare has a few tricks up there sleeve.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/why-the-ending-of-mass-effect-3-was-satifying-and-worthy-of-the-series-mass

It's a bad ending, we all get it now. Can we move on with our lives and talk about something that isn't bullshit?

@NickL said:

They weren't talking about whether they liked the ending or not.

They were talking about how stupid and pointless it is to sign a petition to get it changed. I agree with them.

What about people who like the ending?

What about the silent majority who don't piss and moan on Internet forums?

Why should they have something they like, or are at least content with, have a product they liked altered because YOU are unhappy?

As though demanding a change to the ending of someone's hard work wasn't entitled enough...

@Tim_the_Corsair: it would be DLC and you wouldn't HAVE to buy it...

@LordXavierBritish said:

@CL60: All of those arguments are really, really bad.

"It's okay there was a Deus Ex Machina guys, it was in since the beginning!"

Yes, the beginning of the end of a trilogy. The perfect time to justify everything with space magic.

Man I thought that PA site was better than this, this isn't news. It's just a fan boy trying to justify terrible writing.

Writing quality is subjective. Also Penny Arcade is heavily editorialized. It's not just news, it includes opinion pieces as well.

I don't think the ending should be changed, they screwed it up, they cannot undo that in my eyes. I'll always remember getting that ending.

I look forward to hearing what they think of the ending. I see a lot of Mass Effect 3 slating in the future.

@CL60:

The backlash against a game’s ending may be the biggest compliment anyone has ever paid a developer.

Is one of the biggest load of shit anyone has ever written.

@Grelik:

Come on you all, He's right you can't be a fan of the Mass Effect series if you don't think the ending is bad. Oh yeah and also I'm being sarcastic. The ending isn't great but that doesn't mean it needs to be changed and these people petitioning for Bioware to change the ending are being dumb.

Great. Another thread for this shit.

No, no, no. You can disagree on principle. It doesn't matter what the ending was, at all. On principal, and I agree with them, people do not have ownership over the work someone else. Not up for arguing about it though.

@sleeprockss said:

@Grelik:

Come on you all, He's right you can't be a fan of the Mass Effect series if you don't think the ending is bad. Oh yeah and also I'm being sarcastic. The ending isn't great but that doesn't mean it needs to be changed and these people petitioning for Bioware to change the ending are being dumb.

Why/ It was terrible, and it wasn't up to standard. It damages the franchise and it ruins any immersion (a great many people had). It makes the plots of the previous games nonsensical and pointless.

But most importantly.. it's happened before. Broken Steel. There's precedent for it. Also, they could change it in a way that still preserves these endings, makes them make sense and actually cool (indoctrination theory), but still adds to them.

I know the internet loves to immediately discard anything the second the word "petition" is uttered, but it does work and it might work here. People care about the series, they're doing what they can. Hell, they had a charity drive in the name of fixing the ending.

I'm continually ammused by GB staff as self proclaimed fans of the franchise constantly getting so many facts wrong and lore that they never bothered to know in the first place or forgotten, and just plain shit they don't remember.
Ryans rant on the relays was particularly funny and painfull to listen to at the same time. /facepalm
 
And the continuing diatribe about the side stuff from last week, when all you have to do is swing by a planet and do a scan and drop it off with a dude when you find yourself on a citadel anyway.
Especially considering that those things very specifically feed into the war effort. They aren't just random shit of no purpose to the main goal.
Doing random sidequests for strangers that had 0 to do with your main goal in ME2 was by far way more out of place.
 
I feel like listening to old men that are always forgetting or misremembering things. Then rant about them.

Just another day on the Internet!

I for one liked the ending, but I could see how others might not. But to ask Bioware to change it is ludicrous, if you don't like it move on.

@Pinworm45:

The reason they made Broken Steel was because the game mad you load up your last save rather than let you continue on after the ending. Also, someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread but it didn't require a bunch of effort to change the ending so that you survive no matter what. To change the Mass Effect 3 ending it would take a lot more effort and money and if the ending ruined any enjoyment you had in the franchise you probably weren't enjoying the series that much to begin with.

@sleeprockss said:

@Pinworm45:

The reason they made Broken Steel was because the game mad you load up your last save rather than let you continue on after the ending. Also, someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread but it didn't require a bunch of effort to change the ending so that you survive no matter what. To change the Mass Effect 3 ending it would take a lot more effort and money and if the ending ruined any enjoyment you had in the franchise you probably weren't enjoying the series that much to begin with.

The fact that I was enjoying the series is what makes the terrible ending such a let down.

@CL60 said:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/why-the-ending-of-mass-effect-3-was-satifying-and-worthy-of-the-series-mass

His arguments aren't so great. He justifies every terrible piece of the ending with how it was somehow foreshadowed early on. This doesn't make it good. I really dislike the rebuttal to complaints about decisions being rendered useless. Too often I say "but I didn't get to see the impact of my decisions! They didn't matter!" To which the response is "But that last decison changes EVERYTHING!" The apparent weight of that final decision does not change the fact that it was silly, and eliminates the consequences of decisions that I was emotionally and intellectually invested in for three games. I don't care if there is no happy ending. I didn't necessarily want a happy ending. I wanted an ending where the Reapers are defeated. What comes after isn't necessarily happy. You have a galaxy in ruins, and a number of loose alliances. With the reaper threat gone as fast as it came, there are some issues to work through. The Salarians will likely return to being pissed about the genophage cure. The Krogan will likely be torn into factions that want to be peaceful and want to kill the Turians. Everyone will be slightly pissed at the Asari for withholding technology. Not to mention, with all of the council races devastated, what could become of emerging powers like the Krogan and Quarian? No, it would not be happy, and the transition would not be smooth. Yet it would provide so much interesting content for future games. DID ANYONE AT BIOWARE CONSIDER THIS?

This stuff reminds me of a Hideo Kojima quote around the release of MGS2. To para-phrase: When you make a movie, you make what you want. When you make a video game, you make what the fans want.

Video games are not art, they are different and cannot really be compared. They are, still, an untapped medium. Is it wrong for gamers to demand a better ending? Right now, we have no idea. If Bioware cave in and change the ending then I guess it is ok to do that.

Personally I just want some DLC to wrap up the rest of the universe. I just want some closure on the whole thing, which is what we were promised pre-launch. I hate how video games, in particular, have something against ending properly, with satisfaction.

I liked the game, I can see where people are coming from, but I liked it. I think a lot of people expected too much, I felt character interactions were handled perfectly and while some decisions failed to come into visual display in the final battle; Bioware did not have unlimited resources and time.

And Halo: Reach already drained all my disappointment anger.

Regardless of the tone of the ending, I think most people just wanted an actual ending. Think: Lord of the Rings, that is an ending; a diffinitive conclusion. What we got was a cliff-hanger. All they needed to do was end the damn game.

@Kevin_Cogneto said: In fairness to the "change the ending" crowd, I think their sense of entitlement comes from the fact that there was five years of Mass Effect marketing that gave the impression that you would be able to have a huge influence on the outcome of the story, and I think that has gone a long way towards giving these people their sense of entitlement. But it's still no excuse, these people need to take a deep breath and move on with their lives.

Quite so. I think there's also an element to it where like...So, in principle I agree with people saying that demanding Bioware change it is "entitled" and ridiculous, after all, whatever people may say, we don't take part in (that part of) the creative process, and it's up to those who do to make those decisions. I think that something about that barrier is broken down by the fact that people don't see it as an artistic decision, made with the integrity that we expect of artists. They see it as an expedient decision, producer/publisher meddling or a rush job in a quick dev cycle. Whether these are valid concerns, whether Bioware was motivated by artistic concerns or monetary we can't know, but I think it's pretty obvious that the people complaining at the very least think that Bioware are artistically bankrupt by the fact they are talking about a trading standards violation.

@ExplodeMode said:

@Hewitt: My problem was that a series that always went out of it's way to explain every little thing, at the very last moment, just kind of quits and goes off the deep end without trying to explain anything. It's like if you were watching the last episode of the Sopranos and just before it goes to credits everyone starts using magic. It's incongruous. Even though I think the endings are complete garbage, going back and changing it is pointless. It happened. It's over. Bioware (Us too) just need to keep moving forward.

But you can't think of it like a season of a tv show, it has to be judged on the framework of a trilogy. Some things at the end of LotR didn't make any sense but at least there was a proper end. Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the Reaper's reasoning but I could forgive it if the trilogy was over. This is a problem with many video games, endings are always highly unsatisfying because publishers love them some sequelitis.

So, spoilers obviously, but am I the only person that was annoyed that EVERY ending was a happy ending? What the game journalists are complaining about is that everyone is whining about how there are no happy endings, but it's the complete opposite. No matter what you do, your fleet is always a match for the Reapers. No matter how little you contribute, the Crucible is always completed on time. You always have a chance to say goodbye to everyone who isn't there, who happens to be standing next to Quantum Entangler communication devices. You always get to jump on that little turret on the bridge for no reason in between saying bye to Garrus and Liara. ("Quick Shepard, jump on this turret and shoot things! Whew, good thing you were here.") You always have just enough forces to push in right to the beam up point, you always kill the Illusive Man, you always get your choice of saving the galaxy, saving the galaxy, or saving the galaxy.

It was honestly a little lame. I wasn't expecting Shepard to come out of this alive, but I was shocked when no ending had the Reapers winning. That just diminishes the entire series when you realize it's impossible for the Big Bads to defeat you. It honestly made the resolution with Mordin more powerful, interesting, and well thought-out than the end of the game.

That's fine though, but the logical inconsistencies are terrible, like my squad being on the fleeing Normandy, or exploding Relays being something that should take out every major inhabited planet in the cosmos. ID theory makes a lot of sense, but if I believe that, I have to believe they shipped a game without an ending for the sake of selling it to us later, which is even darker than Mass Effect 3.

@Canteu said:

@Kevin_Cogneto said:

"It's a stupid idea to change the ending to an existing game no matter how bad it is."

Fallout 3.

This. Wasn't Jeff in favor of the changes to Fallout 3? I know he didn't like the way they didn't change the Ron Perlman narration at the end, but I distinctly remember him being glad that you could now send Faux into the radiation, seems kinda hypocritical to me.

As for the ME3 ending, I think a Fallout 3 style addition would be best. Basically, a continuation from the end of the game with slight changes to make the continuation make sense (preferably by acknowledging the indoctrination theory), though not really "changing" the ending as it is now. If they did this, added some clarifications and explanation for the ending, took care of some of the plot holes, and gave actual closure, I think most fans would be pleased. The ending doesn't have to be happy or triumphant, just fix or explain the plot holes and give us a sense of closure for the characters and universe we've come to love over the course of 100+ hours.

I just finished it yesterday.  If it's a straight ending then it's awful (to be fair though, most game endings are awful, so it's not like I feel put out by it or anything).  If it was supposed to be a mindfuck ending then it was just spectacularly badly handled (but could have been great).
 
I don't think they should change their ending if it truly reflects what they were going for.  If it was supposed to be a mindfuck and they now realise they just didn't quite make the reveal clear enough (which isn't always necessary, but kinda is in this case) then I'd be ok with them bringing it in line with their intentions.  They certainly shouldn't charge for a new ending whatever they do.
 
My gut feeling is that it is (or was at some point) supposed to act as a setup for Mass Effect 4, with the real fight still raging on Earth (and the very end of ME3 just being a fight for Shepard's mind).  Whether that changed during development and that's what's responsible for the trainwreck of an ending the game actually has, I'm not sure.

Fallout 3 was different. People wanted to be able to continue playing after the end credits. The only way to fix that was to have your character not die.

I'm okay with explaining the Normandy stuff, but the whole idea of that ending is that you don't know what happens next. What kind of closure would you guys want (this is a serious question) ?

I haven't finished the game, and I'm not enjoying it as much as I enjoyed 2. But at this point I just want to finish the game so I can see what everyone is talking about.