Dark Souls 2 Lore Discussion/Speculation Thread (spoilers)

@myrmicus: That was meant to be a concession, I know I can argue for my ideas most of the time but I'm not afraid to point out the flaws in them when I see them.

On this discussion about the Bastille/Undead Asylum: there are definitely a lot of parallels. To me it comes across as more of an implication that many times, over and over again, rulers are seeing the undead as a threat and locking them away. Although they could very well be the same place. I don't see the director's comment on location as "word of god." Maybe I just don't trust the people at From based on past trolling...

When you mentioned the geography as proof that the locations are separate my ears perked, as I now have an excuse to say something I've been thinking about. In the past few years amazing discoveries have been made around the world proving that civilization is not as young as we thought. One in particular tht comes to mind is some ruins in South America high above sea level containing what seem to be docks or piers. Knowing how often real life architecture shows up in the Souls universe I don't think it's a stretch that they would use real world geographic material as well. The land that Lordran inhabited thousands of years ago high above mountain ranges may now be at sea level. In fact who even know if it's "thousands" of years that have passed? It may be much more than that and landscapes change drastically over time.

@rocketboot: Except that when a developing team says something about the game, it is word of god, by definition. So Drangleic is not on the same continent than Lordran. End of story. You may not feel like it because of their past trolling, but the only trolling I remember is about the pendant (which is a running gag from game to game, there was another in a previous game which did nothing at all)... and what was said, if I recall correctly, was something like : "You should take the pendant as a gift, or nothing at all." that particular phrasing makes all the difference with the one they use when saying "Drangleic is on another continent".

As for geography, yes, we see underwater fossils in the mountains, but we don't see it the other way around. The explanation is that mountains are created by one tectonic plate sliding under another, making that other one rise by combined action of this sliding and the compression wish crumple (not sure about the exact translation of the world), creating a mountain in the process. So things that are on low grounds can end up on top of mountains, but things on mountains would just be destroyed, burried under the very ground... or on even higher mountain. Remember that the old Undead Asylum was on top of a mountain and the Lost Bastille has its foot in the sea.

As for similarities, the Soul Series are loaded with similarities (if not outhright expys from one another) :

- Blacksmith Ed (Demon Souls) is similar to Vamos : Both are blacksmith in areas not so easy to reach. Both are unsympathetics. Both have something with fire (Ed uses the Flamelurker Soul to fuel his Demon Soul Forge, while Vamos can do flame upgrades.

- Yurt the Silent Chief (Demon Soul) = Lautrec of Carim (Dark Souls 1) = Crayton of Mirrah (Dark Souls 2). They are all three homicidal guys, the two first killing NPC usefull to you and even using the same weapon.

- The Maiden in Black (Demon Soul) = The Emerald Herald (Dark Souls 2). Both aid the player without reserve, by helping him convert souls to SL.

- King Allant (Demon Soul) = Vendrick (Dark Souls 2) They both are king of the principal country you are wandering. They both are corrupted/hollowed. They both seek power. You could Argue Gwyn has similarities with Vendrick too, with the hollowed state and Kingship.

- Patche the Hyena (Demon Soul) = Trusty Patche (Dark Soul 1) = Mild Mannered Pate. Three silver tongues with backstabbing disorder. The two first have the same name, face and they even do the same thing (hunt down clerics and pushing you off a cliff after luring you to look below). All three use spear and shield as weapons.

- Sage Freke and apprentice = Big Hat Logan and apprentice. Both are wizards obsessed with knowledge and/or power, with an apprentice each. Both gives you access to some of the most powerfull spells in their respective games. Both of their apprentices sell basic spells.

- Selent Vilend (Demon Soul) and Lucatiel of Mirrah (Dark Souls 2) are both great warrior women in search of their lost brothers.

And so much more... About characters... about locations... Could w say all things really similar are the same because of these similarities ? Sure, it can be hargued, but when developers said "it's not the same place, period" then...

Speaking about the Word of God trope, here is a quote from TV-trope page about this very trope, reguarding Dark Souls :

The director of Dark Souls has provided several minor clarifications regarding the storyline, including the facts that Ceaseless Discharge is the son of the Witch of Izalith (which was heavily hinted at by the Orange Charred Ring's description), that the Pendant is totally unimportant (after some trolling on the topic), and that if Solaire survives to fight Gwyn with you, he Links the Fire in his own world.

The Solaire bit is interesting...

@myrmicus: Haha ok. I find it pretty funny that you cite the specificity language in your argument and then completely misread what I was saying about ruins and sea level. I may be wrong but I believe it is the ruins of Puma Punku in Bolivia which is thousands of feet above sea level now. The ruins contain structures appearing to be docks used to harbour ships, despite being so high above sea level. These aren't fossils in the mountains, they are man made structures at a high altitude. It has nothing to do with tectonics but with the variance in sea level. In fact they say right now the sea level is rising due to global climate change and the melting of the ice caps. This process can go both ways, the sea level will rise and fall as thousands of years pass.

Look at it this way: think of any island in the ocean. Now suck all the water away. What does it look like now? A mountain.

Now let's get back to these developer comments. If you want to be very specific with what the director said let's go to his actual quote: (in response to a question asking about continuity between the two games)

"I can't completely answer this question, but the two settings are connected, yes. However, I wouldn't say there's a direct connection as far as story is concerned. The game is set in a different part of the same planet -- to put it another way, if the first game was set in the North Pole, this one would be in the South Pole; that sort of contrast. 'Time' is one of the central keywords we're keeping in mind as we create this. I can't give concrete details about this yet, so hopefully you'll be able to use your imagination for now."

So yes, it obviously suggests that the two games are set in different places. But the wording is as vague as the pendant comment! He basically says the settings are polar opposite, followed with a comment about giving focus to the concept of 'time.' Now if you think about space and time as they are in the Souls games, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that when a person says "This place is here and that place is over there" that they might mean something more abstract.

All I'm trying to get at here is that there are very solid arguments for and against Drangleic and Lordran being the same place. Just as I can't say "Heide's Tower of Flame is certainly Anor Londo" you can't say "The Lost Bastille is certainly not the Undead Asylum."

@myrmicus: Augh, I noticed you went and added a bunch to that post. All your "similarities" you edited into your post are not at all comparable to those between Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2. I don't even think I need to mention all the direct cross overs, and even the more looser connections are more obvious than "2 blacksmiths that upgrade with flame materials."

@rocketboot: The comment still says : "The game is set in a different part of the planet." I don't see anything vague about this very sentence. I have hard time finding any argument solid enough to break this. The more vague next sentence hints that "another plart" is even an euphemism. Plus, I don't see what connection between the Undead Asylum and the Lost Bastille are so strong you could say they are the same place while characters like Trusty Patches and Mild Mannered Pate aren't labelled "the same character". Those two have awefully lot in common, they are more similar to each other than the Lost Bastille and the Undead Asylum.

I hear you about the arguments about Drangleic and Lordran being the same... and I try to deconstruct this idea : Word of God set the place somewhere else, that is a really strong start. Next, I was pointing the fact that Soul Games, be it Demon Soul, Dark Soul 1 and Dark Soul 2 are loaded with similarities and we should be very cautious about saying "This and this are the same, they are so similar !"

With Word of God, I don't say : "The Lost Bastille is certainly not the Undead Asylum" I say : "The Lost Bastille ISN'T the Undead Asylum." Same for Heide and Anor Londo. It's not something I wand, but I still don't see how we could fight Word of God.

About the geology speech. I'm not english, so my language can be incorrect at times. I had hard time finding right words to describe the process. I used the word "fossils" like I could use anything else. Fossils talk about the previous life that inhabited the land. Sea fossils in the mountains tells us those mountains were under the sea. Be it fossils or man made structure, the idea is the same. The idea is that mountains rise up, not the other way around. But you made an excellent point with the rising of the sea level, I totally forgot that one. Plus, seeing how the Lost Bastille only have its foot on water, while Heide is totally flooded, we can assume that the building was on a higher position to begin with.

@myrmicus: Let's disregard the Bastille/Asylum part of this for a second, as I don't think it's a very strong indicator for Lordran and Drangleic sharing a common location. And I would also like to restate that my opinion is not that these two lands are identical, I mentioned a theory on the last page of this thread that I feel carries much more weight. More on that later.

Let's instead focus on the more profound connections between DkS/DkS2 and subsequently Lordran/Drangleic, connections that I believe nullify portions if the director's comments. To name a few: the Old Dragonslayer, the four lord souls, the broken shards of the Lordvessel, the Heirs of the Sun covenant and the altar you interact with, the origins of Nashandra, Sublime Bone Dust, Black Knight weapons. Need I go on? All of these are much stronger connections that "That guy Pate is sure a reference to Patches!" These are DIRECT connections. And the director said there are no real connections between settings.... Hmmm. See what I'm getting at here? It may seem unlikely to you but you cannot say with authority that Drangleic certainly is or isn't Lordran.

I brought up some talk about dimensional tearing and alternate universes in an earlier post, and I feel like this describes what it going on in Drangleic. Whether it is a creation of parallel universes colliding or folding into one another, or an amalgamation of worlds that have been affected by the abyss, I'm sure that many things in this land do not belong. Above Heide's it appears there is just a hole in the sky, or a tear of some sort. You get to Drangeic via Things Betwixt, that's a pretty strong suggestion in itself.

Based solely off of this differences vs similarities of the settings I feel like this theory makes the most sense, and I've spent time on both sides of this argument. That said, nothing is very certain in the lore of this game and I can't dismiss the possibility of many other theories just because this makes the most sense to me.

@rocketboot: Sadly, the "Word of God" trope is mercyless : The thoery can have all the ellements n the world to appear correct, if Word of God say "it isn't" then it sn't, end of story. It pans me, because I like to come up with theories and those clues are real and draw us to an obvious theory. The fact that a lot of people adhere to this theory is telling, but I simply can't gnore Word of God, even if I want to.

All the element that connects Drangleic to Lordran aren't DIRECT connections. Finding an item somewhere isn't a direct connection, as objects can be moved... even souls can travel from people to people in the Dark Soul world. Black Knight weapons, Sublime Bone Dust, altars, all those are objects that could have been moved. Old Dragnonslayer ? Ornstein was supposed to protect Gwynevere and we know that Gwynevere left Anor Londo, with her husband to another land... It should be obvious that he bodyguard followed her. For some time, I believed that Drangleic was built on Vinheim, because of the Dragoncrest Ring, that this ring originated from the country where Drangleic now stands. But then I found another Dragoncrest Ring which stated that the magical school which created this ring moved from a location to another, when the need arised... As for Nashandra, we don't know where Vendrick found her... and technically, she doesn't even originate from Lordran, but from the Abyss. When the Chosen One kills Manus, he does so inside the abyss, which appears to be a parallel dimension.

Add to all that a Word of God that says "Same world, but not the same place"... It simply can't be ignored.

I'll follow you on the "dimensional mish-mash" idea. I think it's the theory that makes the most sense, for the same reason as you. And if it's correct, then the Word of God stays true : We're not on Lordran, it's another part of the world...

@myrmicus: I can't accept this "word of god" stuff just because it follows a popular trope. Allow me to reiterate my previous post for clarity: those examples I posted were not meant to connect the games' locations, but their plots and stories. In the same interview that the director said that Dark Souls 2 is not in the same part of the world, he also said that the plots and stories are in no way related. This statement was false. The two games are very obviously connected, hell you even link the first flame! Perhaps you could say his true meaning was lost in translation, or there were changes in development in the year and a half period between the interview and release of the game (not a stretch of the imagination, other aspects of the game were changed as we all know). Regardless it nullifies any argument you can make towards this whole "word of god" thing.

I'm gonna use Star Wars as an example here. When George Lucas said "R2D2 and C3P0 were built by Anakin Skywalker, that's the way I envisioned it back in the 70s" fans of the serious laughed, raged and did not accept that (because it's ridiculous). In fact many fans don't even accept the prequel trilogy. Even though they are "word of god" put forth by the creator of Star Wars.

@rocketboot: Uh, where does he says "the plots are in no way related", while it's said in the very quote you picked that the two settings are connected ?

Even then, we could argue that a "plot" and a "setting" aren't the same thing. Lets speak about it... I don't see any plot connection. Lighting the Flame ? It's not plot related, it's a general rule of the setting, much like the Curse.Then we have Nashandra, which is supposedly a fragment of Manus. But Manus held no real purpose in the initial plot of Dark Soul 1. Even if we count the plot of the DLC, Nashandra isn't related to the plot : She is a fragment of Manus, it's a rule of the setting too, it's what she is, but it doesn't affect Dark Soul 2 plot in any way.

What's Dark Soul 2 plot ? Nashandra wants the Throne of Want and uses you to aquire it.
What's Dark Soul 1 plot ? Gwyndolin and Frampt want you to light the First Flame, while Kaathe wants the opposite.

Explain to me how those two plots are related.

As for the Star Wars exemple... "Many fans don't even accept the prequel trilogy, even though they are "rord of god""... The point is, what fans wish, think or want doesn't matter. It's not just a "popular trope". A trope describe something and is named to represent this very definition. "Word of God" is telling : A creator holds all rights on its creation. What he says about his creation is true, because as far as his work is concerned, he is god and his word is law.

@myrmicus: I meant the part where he says "There is no direct connection as far as the story is concerned." My paraphrasing was a bit off. Regardless I still see it as contradictory.

Why? Because the stories of these 2 games are related. DkS2 is in a way a retelling of the cycle introduced in DkS, and it does so in a way that gives us more insight into what is going on with the cycle. It also takes great efforts to show us the world contains familiar artifacts and hasn't entirely forgotten what went on in the last game. Saying these two games aren't connected in terms of plot and story is like saying "the Cold War is not connected to World War 1." Without one the other would not exist; if the events of Dark Souls did not occur we would not have Dark Souls 2. If Manus wasn't defeated in the DLC there would be no Nashandra, if the Bed of Chaos hadn't been destroyed the Old Witch Soul could not possess the Lost Sinner, etc.

And to follow up with a more direct comparison of the plots, I want to take what you said about Dark Souls 2: "Nashandra wants the Throne of Want and uses you to aquire it." But lets add that the Emerald Herald also wants you to light the flame/take the Throne to stop Nashandra from doing so, among some other possibilities that are a little less clear (freeing Shanalotte? ending her journey?) When you look at it that way it is very much parallel to Gwyndolin and Frampt vs. Kaathe. You have an end goal through which different characters want to manipulate in carrying out their own devices.

Back to Star Wars, when George Lucas makes comments about his work that contradicts the work itself, maybe "the word of god" has gone a little crazy. If Anakin built the droids, why do none of them remember this in their encounters in the original trilogy? Why doesn't C3P0 share his memories of Luke's father with him? A creator has control of what he creates, but needs to abide by the rules of continuity at the risk of compromising his work. If errors in continuity are present I feel that is the point where fans can take liberties and speculate against the comments of the creators. And like I said before, a comment about a project that was over a year from completion and possibly poorly translated from another language should not be taken very seriously. But I suppose none of this is valid to you if you believe the Dark Souls 2 director's comment about story to be true. And if that's the point we disagree on, I think we should agree to disagree.

Hello! I have returned to change the subject! (thank god)

Remember that discussion about the storage room in The Lost Bastille? The gold woman statue in that storage room is from the walls of the hallways leading to the Duke's Archives in Dark Souls 1. It looks old and weathered, but it's the same statue.

@development: Yeah I saw something about that on Reddit when I was goin nuts about the other statue in that room. This one is baffling to me. Is it a statue of the maidens Seath used for his experiments? And why is it in the Bastille? I'd like to believe these types of things aren't just reused assets for filler but this one is tough.

WAIT A SECOND! Is Aldia the Duke?

Mastodon Halberd:

Halberd of the Primal Knights that defend Drangleic castle.

The brutish and might Primal Knights wield this halberd like a feather-light twig, but to the ordinary warrior it is a chore to even hold up, owing to its great weight.

Terrible experiments were said to have taken place in a hidden manor in Drangleic. The mastermind presiding over the deeds was thought to be Lord Aldia

Up til now I was led to believe the Duke/Freja were responsible for creating all the man-beasts, as Tark thanks you for killing his master when you kill them. It would definitely explain where he went, and it makes sense from an analog stand point, when you think about Seath being the guy who was the great magician in DS1 (Seath = Freja/Duke), and Aldia is the big magician guy in this game. Seath was also the right-hand man of Gwyn, and Aldia was the right-hand man of Vendrick (okay, that was actually Velstadt, taken more literally, but in terms of respect Aldia was both the older brother and the guy working alongside Vendrick).

The only weird part is, like... it just seems kinda stupid, right? Wouldn't people have seen where he went? There's also no other mention of Aldia seriously digging spiders, like "the Duke" did. I donno, just a thought...

By the way, I now prescribe to the theory that Navlaan was/is Olenford, the lost sorcerer seeking greater power in the undead crypt. Makes a more sense than him being Aldia, and it fits better tonally.

@development: That is a really interesting theory !
I would like to see the description speaking about Aldia digging spiders, but still... I always wondered why there was an Evelarsting Dragon Corpse in Freja's Lair and where Aldia found his ancient bones to do his experiments. Maybe there are something there. Although, I can't keep the idea away from my head that the Duke is simply the hollowed dude in rich clothing holding important keys, in the library right after the boss fight. I mean, who could this guy be, if not the Duke ? Plus, we know that Vendrick slain "four powerfull being and used their souls to create Drangleic"... considering Aldia is still alive when Drangleic rose, he wasn't slain. That said, we find the Lord Souls even after this event, so Aldia could have obtained it afterward. It would also start to explain why he was obsessed with Dragons.

Oh, no, I totally think that Tseldora-gear-wearing guy would be the guy I'm talking about. Just a hollowed-ass Aldia. He went there, did his research or whatever, and went hollow. He was never a warrior, like Vendrick, so it's easy to see why he might be a pushover.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about Vendrick slaying the lords, therefore Aldia needed to be dead? (did I read that correctly?) I don't think the "lords" Vendrick slew were Freja, Old Iron King, etc. I think he slew much older versions of those... souls.

And yeah, I didn't even think about the ancient dragon being there, haha. Doesn't prove anything, but it's more very slight evidence. Also, remember, Gwyn gave Seath part of his lord soul. Vendrick giving the duke/Aldia a lord soul would certainly fit the game's whole tone of "repeating the cycle."

And in case anyone is like, "wow you guys have gone off the deep end," I should say this is just an idea I'm throwing around.

Oh yeah, and I wanted to point something else out that is off-topic. The Ancient Dragon you fight is totally the non-undead version of this:

It matches perfectly. The single claw coming out of the corner of his wings, the size, the lack of 4 wings, the tail; it all fits. Could the Ancient Dragon be a drake?

Also worth pointing out is that the dragon remnants you find in Black Gulch and the Dragon Skeleton in Aldia's Keep are fucking huuuge. Way bigger than the Ancient Dragon boss. Maybe the boss is just a baby. Also, is the Ancient Dragon the "black dragon" the game often refers to, as if it's a legend; or is that a reference to Kalameet. Or is it perhaps intentional conflating of the two dragons?

It is a reference to Guyra.... oh sorry Kalameet :P. You have to play other From Games to really get it. Seath and "Kalameet" were not new characters for Dark Souls, they were both allies/antagonists in most of the King's Field games first. In fact the only King's Field game that doesn't deal with them is the very last one King's Field IV: The Ancient City.

Navlaan isn't Olenford, he is one of the grave keeper people. If you look very closely under his hood you can see the skin of his chin is blue.

@karkarov: Yeah, Olenford was looking for greater power and found it: in the Undead Crypt. You're correct. And I'm correct.

edit: also, I actually recently watched some of a playthrough of King's Field. That tron-world, man... what the fuck were they thinking? Their storytelling has certainly improved.

It wasn't tron it was sort of a .... how to put it, different dimension where uh... some guy you deal with in Dark Souls lived :P. Like the Dark Dimension, only with ps1 graphics. Give them some slack.

If the announced DLC reveals Aldia to us about a quarter of the debates in this thread are going to be meaningless haha. I'd like to see a flow chart of all the evidence we have concerning Aldia connecting to all the conflicting theories. Maybe I'll try and put something together after I'm done fleshing out my "Aldia is Sweet Shalquoir" theory.

Anyway Tark and Najka definitely have the flavour of Aldia's experiments to them, and so do the spider-people in Tseldora. The only problem with this is Tark's dialogue stating their master created them "long, long ago." Although it doesn't have to be an issue, as we don't really know how long ago shit hit the fan in Drangleic.

But Shalquoir is a she ! D=

Yeah, a guy turning into a girl is weirder than a guy turning into a cat ! or a dragon... or a Hutt...

I thought Manscorpion Tark is/was Black Iron Tarkus.

After falling from the rafters in Anor Londo he's brought to The Duke's Archives (which is not far away) where he becomes one of Seath's experiments. He's mutated into the manscorpion just as the maidens were mutated into the Pisaca in Dark Souls. He will reward you for killing his master The Duke's Dear Freja, and as we know Freja drops the Old Paledrake Soul when defeated in NG+.

I don't know who Najka was before becoming the Scorpioness.

Just an observation that I think I haven't seen a thread this long and detailed even on Demon's.

But tell me, is it just the urge to connect the vague and mythical (and somewhat convoluted?) lore in this game or do you actually "care".

Like, Demon's could almost make you cry. I never felt that here (or Dark1 which people seem to completely romanticize at this point). The gameplay is vastly superior. The boss designs are actually really good this time. But do I actually care about Vendrick or Aldia or Tark. Maybe I have just gotten numb but I get the gesture, then I get the ring. And move on.

Random rant as usual.

As you were :)

@haniball: Personally, I didn't think too much about the stories of Demon's and Dark until I realized how many theories were out there. I got really into that stuff after most of the strong ideas had formed. Now with Dark Souls 2 I was able to form my own ideas before anyone else had established indisputable theories. I played this game much differently than the previous 2, really closely examining every square inch of every corner of the world. To some people that probably sounds crazy but I'm sure there are others in this thread who would agree it adds richness to the experience.

I think a predisposition to conspiracy theories in the real world probably adds a bit to my obsessions here too... I just want to know all the secrets! What are they hiding!?

That falls more into the category of obsession with connecting the dots :)

I think in Demon's it is the Garl Vinland / Astraea sequence that really gets you to question the whole thing. To me that sequence felt like the ending of Nier if you played that game, and the next time around you start to pay attention not for the sake of it but because you want to understand what went on here. What drove this woman to sacrifice herself, Garl to protect her and what t.f. is your role in it.

In Dark1 the only time I got that feeling is Astoria and Sif but that was borderline emotional manipulation. Let's just say ... less subtle :)

Dark2, hmm, whoever compared it to Bioshock Infinite had a point. Not just the cycles, but also the lack of likeability. That said I am very much looking forward to the DLC to learn more about the kings. Probably more with my nerd hat on than anything else :)

Just thought I'd drop in to blow your minds.

In the Memory of Jeigh, you can see a bunch of ships with their sails all rolled up, obscuring an emblem. Well, I went into the texture dump and found the full image: http://i.imgur.com/JAT8dUo.png?1

Yep.

@development: How is it supposed to blow our mind exactly ? ^^'

@development: @myrmicus: It is identical to Vendrick's/Drangleic's coat of arms....

I feel like this adds credence to something I said a while back about the obelisk in Majula, and the smudged message on the back of it being readable in the Portuguese version of the game. "The giants crossed the sea, perhaps to return home." I put out the idea that this could mean the giants originated in Drangleic and the land itself is what Vendrick stole from them. I suppose he could have adopted their banner as well...

I'm guessing this will become clear in the DLC. We're going to learn about 3 kings: the Sunken King, the Old Iron King, and the Ivory King. We obviously already have information on the Iron King, but I'm definitely looking forward to more! The Sunken King could refer to the king of Heide, but the architecture of the buildings in that part of the trailer don't strike me as "Heide-like." The first thing that came to mind was that the colours and the stonework reminded me of the Shrine of Amana. It is also a ruin covered in water so it wouldn't be a stretch to place a sunken kingdom underneath it all. And finally we have the Ivory King, which I'm going to go ahead and suspect without evidence might refer to the Giant Lord, or some other king of the giants that came before him. Like I said I haven't seen anything to suggest this, it's just a hopeful suspicion.

Another idea that crossed my mind is that the 3 kings could have connections to the last game. The Old Iron KIng possesses the soul of Gwyn, maybe the other two have great souls as well. What other kings do we know of who are drowned? The four kings! There was unused content from Dark Souls where we would have encountered one of the four kings, the Undead King Jar-eel. He had an armour set, weapon and move set. It would be cool if they brought that in. I don't have an identity for the Ivory King that follows this theory though. Maybe Gwyndolin? He was a bit pale I guess. The obvious "ivory-skinned" character from Dark Souls 1 would be Seathe but we've already met him in Dark Souls 2. Maybe the Ivory King is the Duke of Tseldora?

edit: I just wanted to add a thought I just had that maybe the Ivory King will have some connection with the Primal Knights, because of their tusks

@rocketboot: I can't really agree with this theory (about the Giants originating from Drangleic) quite yet, but I don't quite disagree with it. The fact that those ships have the royal crests doesn't seem so mind blowing to me. Vendrick waged war on other continents, it makes sense that he has ships at his disposal to begin with.

Nah, the lore of Demon's is more interesting and the NPC's from that game are more relatable. Many of the Dark Souls characters are just rehashes of earlier games characters. The fact that everyone's favorite Dark Souls 2 NPC is Gavlaan should tell you how much love is really there for this stuff :P. People just like to nit pick and argue, the main issue is trying to prove that Draengleic is or is not built on what used to be Lordran.

@haniball: No way in hell did Demon's Souls or any Souls game ever make me come remotely close to crying, so I'd disagree with that notion. As for why I care? I donno, how does a person explain why they care about something? They just do. You don't really ask people that. And, as per Karkarov's comment, for me it isn't about "whether Drangleic is built upon long-passed Lordran," because I take this as fact, evidenced by all the areas that are identical to Dark Souls 1 (elevator after Shrine of Amana, Sunlight Altar, and more. One word from a developer (source for that, by the way?) doesn't make me discount all the item descriptions referring to "this land.").

Oh yeah, and all those ships mean is that Vendrick's ships were positioned there to defend against the Giants, Game of Thrones battle of blackwater-style. Keep in mind all the ships are destroyed. Can you imagine giants riding and sailing in ships? Not those ships, anyway. I think they just fuckin walked over from their land. They don't look like something that needs oxygen to live (an aside: does oxygen exist in this world? I've always wondered that about high-fantasy).

Either Vendrick was bombing his own walls because he knew the Giant Lord was there, which is the highest-value target imaginable, or, (more likely since the ships are all destroyed) the giants got through and were lobbing their face-fireballs.

I'd just like to submit a almost-baseless theory that the DLC "Ivory King" is the Xanthous King.

Why? Well Xanthous is clearly a direct reference (based on item descriptions and just the general appearance) to the "Old Monk" boss in Demon Souls. The Old Monk was the exiled King of Latria and his wife was known as the "Ivory Queen".

Also, as far as I can remember, it is the third "king" mentioned in the game (Old iron and Vendrick).

Mad theory territory (also, y'know, FROM probably legally can't link the games), but there you go!

@mcwingstar: That's as good a guess as any. Wouldn't surprise me if it was correct.

@mcwingstar: This actually makes sense. I'm with you there, even if we need more to dwelve more into this theory.

@karkarov: @development: Word of God : "Another part of the world." nuff said. Yeah, I know, I'm persistent... and I still can't understand how one can ignore this and take the opposite as a fact without questionning their own theory. I mean, sure the word of god may seem vague enough to be questionned, but come on, you can't just ignore it. Those "evidences" proving Drangleic is on Lordran aren't evidence and can all be questionned or interpreted differently. And I don't see anything "identical", but merely similar. Point me your evidences, so I can deconstruct them.

And my favorite Dark Soul 2 character isn't Gavlaan, but Lucatiel. I don't think Gavlaan is favored, but I think it became iconic from his speech. Most of the "weirder" NPCs are remembered well... If I say "Enchantment !" you know from which game it comes from and who says it. Almost everyone who played that game know who he is... but saying it's everyone's favorite doesn't sound right.

@development: Ahh my mistake, I assumed the ships were attacking. I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, my current character just got to the Dragon Shrine. As to how the giants arrived in Drangleic, they could have come trans-dimensionally as the PC does and most NPCs do. Although it is a pretty cool thought that they just emerged from the water Godzilla-style.

I actually like a lot of the NPCs. I get a kick out of Straid and Gilligan and their little lore tidbits are great. Navlaan is pretty interesting as an insane evil quest-giver. Grandhal is cool even though we can't explain how he gets around in a wheelchair inaccessible Drangleic. Melentia is my favourite history teacher and Licia's miracle scams are endearing. I even like the Emerald Herald in her long-windedness, if only because she says the most badass line in the game, "Seek misery, lest this land swallow you whole." I know you end up hearing it like a million times but it still evokes the same response in me. I could go on but I think I'd end up listing all the NPCs aside from Carillion and Falken...

Ok this strange thought just hit me.

Shanalotte says that Nashandra covets the First Flame and 'the Great Soul'.

We know how the Souls of the old Lords (Gwyn, Witch of Izalith, Nito and Seathe) still exert their influence on the land even though eons have passed. How the holders of these souls always succumb to the same fate/temptations as the originals. However there is still one truly great soul missing, one perhaps greater than all the rest. The original Chosen Undead, they were the first in this cycle.

What if, much like the Lord Souls, the Soul of the Chosen Undead passes from holder to holder with each age, forever cursed to be the one to put an end to one cycle to start another (I still believe that Drangleic is at the tail end of an Age of Dark when 'The Next Monarch' arrives and sitting on the Throne of Want gives the option of rekindling the First Flame to start an Age of Fire again). The holder of this soul will be possessed of an iron will, no matter how hollow they become they will have but one goal, to defeat all that stand before them to get to the Throne of Want and the First Flame.

This is the 'Great Soul' Shanalotte mentions, effectively your character in Dark Souls 2 is the holder of probably the most powerful Soul in the series, the Soul of the Chosen, the Soul of one of your characters from Dark Souls 1 (lets be more dramatic and say the first character you ever completed Dark Souls with).

Until the cycle is broken (which I do hope Fromsoft establish in Dark Souls 3 at such time as that comes out) the Soul of the Chosen will always be there to usher in each Age of both Fire and Dark, no matter what choices are made along the way..

how is everyone doing on the DLC?

My first bit of DLC lore talk in the spoiler here. Do we need to redact DLC spoilers?

@dudeglove: Nup, Grave of the Dead is a different place. Location in first spoiler tag.

Regarding lore:

A video of interest from a Reddit thread (Sunken Crown Spoilers)

To be fair Benhart pokes his head into a lot of weird places, including, y'know, the past. I think the story of Shulva is pretty self contained so I was pretty happy that all the answers regarding itself. It doesn't provide much in the way of answers for the main game's lore. The Dragon Mural making another appearance again makes a lot connections but even more questions. If Shulva is underneath Black Gulch then I guess it's not to much to wonder they heard of the Dragon Shrine but worshiping dragons or not, it's a little overboard to make a mural way bigger then the source... unless Shulva was the idea for the Dragon Shrine's. Grrr, too many questions.

Well isn't the DLC supposed to all link to Vendrick? Maybe this is one of the first places they came across and was where his and Aldia's fascination of dragons originated?

Love the reference to the intro in the first game.

I haven't played much of the dlc (because trying to play it on NG++++ is rough) but it doesn't sound like we get any new info on the serpents Kaathe and Frampt. Which is a shame. I was hoping we'd get a little insight on what happened to them. But I have to wonder if the dlc will offer any real answers to the many questions in Dark Souls 2. They certainly like their ambiguity.

Only link to the serpents is that the Shrine of Winter's three headless serpent statue makes a second and third (I guess) appearance.

Speaking of the shrine of winter, wasn't the dragon mural also shown there? @dragon4234?

While on the topic of dragons, the lake area of Shulva is filled with can can be inferred to be (via bonfire name and dragon bone drops) imperfect dragons. Where did these imperfect dragons come from? No area of shulva seems lab-like, more religious than trying to play dragon-god. Did aldia dump his failed attempts at the ancient dragon down here (time travel aside) ? Or are these creations of Elana (hence her continued attachment to the dragon)?

They do look a lot like the dragon butts from Lost Izalith... What were the dragon butts again?

New wild theory: Sinh is an allegory for hangovers (sleeping all day, full of poison, explodes with gas when poked).

So I have a theory about the origin of the giants that seems to fit things fairly well(though I have *not* played the DLC). This started when I was looking at what are clearly the left behind great souls. The first observation was that Nashandra's soul wasn't one of them(neither is The Duke's Dear Freja, oddly), judging by its appearance.

They are: The Lost Sinner(Izaleth), The Rotten(Nito), The Old Iron King(The four kings in the abyss/pieces of Gwyn's original soul), The King(I believe Gwyn Lord of Cinder's soul), the Ancient Dragon(Seathe, at least in NG. In NG+ his soul is clearly the soul of the old paledrake) and, oddly, the Giant Lord.

That implies to me that the Giant Lord holds the soul of the Furtive Pygmy. Which seemed weird to me at first.

But then there's the Throne of Want, with the smaller seat clearly carved into a much larger one. Given that, it would make sense that a giant was originally meant to sit on it and rekindle the first flame. Then there's the fact that Vendrick seemed to learn from the giants how to trap souls(in the golems that look like.... Giants).

I think that the Giants were originally created to trap souls, and that the Giant Lord was made specifically to trap the soul of the Furtive Pygmy. Why makes a lot more sense when you look at the Throne of Want. Man appears to be the offspring of the furtive pygmy, which implies that, much like the chosen undead, the furtive pygmy could also rekindle the first flame. Except that the furtive pygmy's soul can't be destroyed and remains trapped in the Giant Lord.

I think the Giant Lord was created as a "permanent" solution to the curse. Any time the dark sign started appearing, the Giant Lord would sit on the Throne of Want and rekindle the first flame, restarting the cycle. With this view, Nashandra's place in all of this, and the reason her soul isn't like the others, makes a lot more sense. Nashandra doesn't have the Furtive Pygmy's soul, she's just a follower. She waited until the end of a cycle and then led Vendrick to the Giants and had him steal the throne to prevent the Giant Lord from sitting on it. She broke the permanent solution in order to usher in a new age of dark.

@markwazny The "great soul" bestowed upon the Furtive Pygmy was the dark soul. While the great souls live on in Dark Souls, held by the various bosses, the dark soul existed in every splinter of humanity in the first game. Nashandra is a shard of Manus that survived, and I personally believe Manus to be the Furtive Pygmy, so I see Nashandra as one of the remaining parts of the dark soul. (I don't know the lore of how human effigies became the replacement for humanity)

I finally beat Elena solo on NG+ after 30 or more tried and I took out Sinh in 2 attempts. With Crown in hand I went to talk to Vendrick (I had already talked to him before and got some great dialogue) and he basically reinforces the fact that Nashandra played him. Elena played the King who's name is no longer remembered. I believe we will encounter all the shards of Manus by the end of the DLC season and maybe run into Manus and the Primordial Serpents again.

Kaathe was initially the cause of Manus appearing in the world. He'll make an appearance again. Shanalotte and Aldia the Ancient Dragon will also have some part to play in this repeating cycle.