Which is the worst super in PVP, and might need a buff, because it's so underpowered?

I've had one or two good runs with the Palpatine Hands but mostly I just feel like I'm overexposed and look like an idiot.

Correct if I'm wrong but I believe that the best class for PvP is the Hunter.

IMO, most of them need to be touched to either be viable and one toned down a bit. So here comes what I think needs to be done all around.

• Arcstrider - This class needs the most love. It's Super is great when distances are closed, but smart players can easily shut it down. I think it honestly needs to have Blink added back to the Subclass as a base in place of Higher Jump (see the effectiveness of Ionic Blink under Stormcaller). This will effect EE5's, since their main perk makes Higher Jump higher, so I also suggest those boots increase the jump distance of Triple Jump and Strafe jump to a larger extent than they do now, and that it increases the Blink distance you travel. These couple changes would actually drastically improve the effectiveness of the Arcstrider Super.
• Gunslinger - Golden Gun needs a large buff to it's accuracy at range. The entire point of the Super is for it's shots to hit exactly where they are shot. It currently doesn't always do this at range. It should be made 100% accurate at up to the start of Scout Falloff ranges. I'd also like to see the penalty for 6 Shooter reduced drastically, as it's barely even possible to get 6 shots with Way of the Outlaw, which is easily the better of the two Gunslinger perk tree's for PvP. (I actually recommend running this perk tree with that not unlocked, it's so much better)
• Nightstalker - Direct impact from a single tether should be increased to 225 damage (enough to kill a normal guardian). Mobius Quiver's Tether shots should be increased the damage of an opponent by 50%, or hit for 338 (this should also be adjusted to meet the damage needed to kill a target in Super, ie if a Striker has 350 health in Fist, then it needs to be further buffed by that amount).
• Striker - Striker Titan is almost in too good of a place, but the only thing I want to see done is the removal of the "I" frames (invincibility) during and before activation. The second you see a Striker activate he should be able to be damaged just like every other Super. This currently isn't the case.
• Sunbreaker - Hammer Stike, also lovingly know as the Knee's of Justice and Suncharge in Destiny 1, should be made innate into both the Siegebreaker and Fireforged tree's. It is the only Titan Super without this ability, and it doesn't make sense seeing as how it's the only one who had it in Destiny 1. It also was the very definition of Sunbreaker PvP in Destiny 1, so Sunbreakers lack thereof is extremely odd. It should also work similarly to Destiny 1 as it would use much more Super Energy per Hammer Strike compared to a Hammer Throw (6 Throws compared to 4 Strikes per Super).
• Sentinel - Do not touch this Subclass. It works perfectly as it is, and at least in my opinion, is the most well designed and balanced Subclass in Destiny 2.
• Stormcaller - Do not touch this Subclass. This is easily the 2nd most well balanced Subclass in Destiny 2 currently. Any player who has played much Destiny 1 knows that you can make other players just look silly if you utilize Ionic Blink correctly. It easily transforms this Super from Subpar to top tier.
• Dawnblade - Like the Arcstrider, this is the class that needs the 2nd most love in my opinion. Swords thrown need to go a bit straighter and not falloff as quickly. The other change I'd like to see effects all Warlocks with Glide. I'd like to see Glide cut immediately after it's told to and drop the player to the ground like any other jump does. This is most noticeable with the Wild Fire perk active. Wild Fire needs to drop you immediately when you unscope a weapon or are not actively throwing a sword with Glide still active. Hanging up in mid air for extended periods of time only spells certain death. This is entirely the reason I won't even touch this Subclass at all.
• Voidwalker - The only change I would make to Voidwalker is the top tree's "Slowvabomb" (as many have termed it) needs to have it's speed increased by about 100% or double what it currently is. It would still be slow, but currently it darn near useless at those speeds. (right now, you are better off not even unlocking that perk)

But that's just my opinion, even if I have already touched each of these classes in PvP and played a lot of Destiny 1 PvP before it. I'm sure you guys might have different ideas about what may or may not be wrong with these Supers.

Hunter void and hunter arc supers are pure trash. Golden gun neutral game is garbage. They really, really need to rework some of these Hunter skill trees.

From what I hear sunbreaker and dawn blade are also pretty bad.

@pyrodactyl: What? You obviously don't play Gunslinger correctly if you think it has weak neutral game. Gunslinger, IMO, has the #1 neutral game (only followed by Voidwalker purely due to Blink) in Destiny 2. Swarm Grenade is THE most effective PvP grenade in Destiny 2 right now, and it's not even close (Pulse and Spike and the only competition). Add to that Throwing Knives are easily the best Melee's in Destiny 2 for PvP if used correctly, and Gamblers Dodge (both the most evasive dodge and grants Melee refill) and you can be straight up dirty with your neutral game. I played Gunslinger the most this past weekend of Trials purely due to it's strong neutral game rather than it's Super, mainly because at those Scout ranges, Golden Gun was often choking shots that hit people directly in their chest. You need to try Gunslinger paired with a good Hand Cannon on Way of the Outlaw without 6 Shooter unlocked. It's the best PvP class in Destiny (that is if Golden Gun shots would actually register 100% of the time at range). In my opinion only Voidwalker comes close and that is 100% due to blink (there try unlocking everything but Cataclysm). It's weird to me that purposely not unlocking the main perk of two Subclasses turns them into the best PvP Subclasses, but a lot of that is because Bungie isn't the best at game balance. Intentionally nerfing good Subclasses with butts perks.

@giant_gamer: As a Hunter main, no. Not even close

Crucible, as it currently stands, is very, very team oriented. You always want to be shooting with a teammate or 2 or 3. This reality mixes very poorly with the hunter class ability. While a Titan wall can help your team monopolize power ammo or lock down an objective. Warlock rifts help them and their team survive situations they shouldn't and dominate team fights. The hunter dodge will maybe save you and you alone once every 2 matchs. Most of the time you will die mid roll. It is terrible.

Beside that Hunters have the 2 worst PvP supers in the game and the third subclass has among if the not the worst neutral game. They have no answers to the striker or storm caller. They need a buff real bad.

@hestilllives19: Arguing that you need to play this class without one of the perks unlocked is completely insane

@hestilllives19:

1-I never liked throwing knife

2-You were the one saying throwing knife was useless like a week ago.

3-The only thing better than a pulse grenade is a lightning grenade in certain situations.

4-Dodge roll is utter garbage

@pyrodactyl: As sad as it is, playing both a Voidwalker and Gunslinger in PvP, both those top trees are better without their main perk unlocked. The 6 shot perk makes Gunslinger unusable in PvP as the charge time is almost nonexistent. If they reduce that penalty drastically in the future, something they should do, I can see it being viable. The Explosive Knife is good, whereas the Knife Juggler is complete garbage (I made those comments while using Knife Juggler). Explosive Knife adds about 30 bonus damage (I think) to the Throwing Knife hit. The way this breaks down is Knife Juggler accounts for 2 HC body shots in damage or about 90 damage on a Crit, whereas Explosive Knife accounts for 2 HC Crits or around 120 damage. This difference makes a huge change in the outcome of a gunfight. I honestly think both need about a 25% increase in damage to make them as viable as they should be, but Explosive Knife is useable where it is at, Knife Juggler not so much. The SlowvaBomb is the most useless thing in all of PvP, which is silly considering the rest of that tree seems PvP oriented. The only reason I recommend not unlocking Six-Shooter or Cataclysm is because they both break their respective Subclasses because they are terribly designed perks.

What I do agree with is that right now the Hunter Class ability is the weakest of the 3 in both PvP and PvE (though Marksman Dodge has great applications in PvE with the Merciless Fusion Rifle, and say what you will about the Titan short barrier over it, but you are rarely able to empty more than 2 Power Mags into anything). Especially with the "Teamshot the Game" mentality Destiny 2 has right now. But I don't actually think its a Hunter Class ability problem. The problem has more to do with non-existent 1v1 encounters and the roving 4 man balls of death. IMO, that is what needs to be dealt with to increase the viability of the Evade. To do that, Destiny 2 needs major adjustments to Grenades damage ability. Sticky Grenades need to do 50% damage on first explosion, and 25% on their 2nd, but also need to have their Explosive Radius improved dramatically, to say 7m around the stuck target. Incendiary/Suppressor Grenades need their explosive Radius extended to about 10m with Incendiaries hitting for about 125 damage plus 5 ticks of 7 burn damage and Suppressors need to hit for about 140 damage plus Suppress the opponent for 6 seconds (less time than it does now). Pulse Grenades need to Pulse slightly less frequently but have a 7m range as well. Tripmines actually need their damage reduced a bit, back down to around 160 but should explode at a much wider angle. Axion Bolts should also go back to around 110 damage per proc, because 70 doens't do anything. I'd also prefer if the recharge timer on grenades was slightly lower as well. Having Grenade recharge mods of your Subclass on your Armor is tough, so I'd also recommend 2x Mods be at 45 sec or so recharge, and 55 seconds for 1 mod, and 1 min 10 sec for no Mods. I believe 2 Mods right now is 1 min 15 sec. In comparrison Destiny 1 with Tier 5 had recharge timers of about 22 seconds. So what I'm suggesting is still 2x that, because I know a lot of people say they don't want Grenade Spam the game, I don't either. But by the same token, I also don't want "once in a blue moon Grenade that does dick all" the game, and that is where we are at right now, and it's the primary reason Destiny 2 is "4 Man Deathball" the game.

Note: Spike Grenades are super nasty if you get hit by them, and I don't remember being tagged once by a Lightning Grenade in Destiny 2 so far. Their Pulse having a huge timer before detonation makes them really bad, but considering without it, they are easily the number 1 Grenade in the game (like they also were in Destiny 1), I'm ok with it.

@hestilllives19: So the crux of your argument for gunslinger neutral game if you don't play like a crazy person is "the grenade is alright, I guess"? Or what you're saying is I need to trash my main Destiny 1 character and play the whole game again to make a Hunter that's good in PvP? What? I'll just play a good PvP class like Warlock instead until they fix this bullshit

I was saying that during the beta. Absolutely NO perk should have ANY disadvantages to unlocking it. This is just stupid game design.

Also, while ionic blink might make the Warlock's arc super useful, I shouldn't be stuck with a worthless super if I want to use arc souls. Moving to a this set or that set perk system was about the second dumbest design choice in Destiny 2, right behind putting the mida multi tool into a game that's supposed to be a sequel. Including Destiny 1 exotic armor was bad enough, but no exotic weapons should have been carried forward.

I'm still really enjoying the game, though.

Going to have to go with Sky Dawnblade and Chaos Voidwalker. They take supers that aren't great on the other tree and make them much worse.

@spaceinsomniac: I kind of agree with almost everything you've said. I personally hate this system, it's one of the worst things about Destiny 2. It's way too restrictive and was seemingly done to hinder players from making actual builds that make sense. While Orpheus Rig makes Nightstalkers top tree great in PvE (basically because it's stupid broken), it's kind of garbage without it, and the bottom tree is even worse. You know why, because Bungie decided that they wanted to nerf what made Nightstalker a great PvE class in the first place. That was Inv Grenade, Black Hole, Predator, and Light of the Pack. This is destroyed when you move Deadfall to one perk (basically Black Hole mixed with Predator), and Vanish in Smoke and Heart of the Pack (Light of the Pack) in opposite tree's. Add to Pathfinder Moebius Quiver and you have a Super designed to create orbs by killing tethered opponents that doesn't actually, you know, tether any opponents...

I do disagree with your assessment of Stormcaller though. Attunement of Ions is really solid in PvP. You get Ionic Blink, Chain Lightning (extended melee range), Transcendance (full health on Super use), and Arc Web (better grenade Lightning Chaining). This is a class full on devoted to PvP. It's one of the few well designed by Bungie Perk Tree's. Consequently you also have one of the strongest PvE build in Elements. Gale Force is basically the same as Chain Lightning (extended melee range), followed by Arc Soul and Rising Storm (makes Rifts super strong, especially when combined with an Empowering Rift, and Landfall (which destroys almost anything under it when it is popped). This is why I think both Stormcaller and Sentinel are the two best put together Subclass Perk Tree's. Mainly because they are the only ones that actually make sense as a build together. Whoever designed the others were either idiots, or most likely purposely trying to hamper those builds from Destiny 1.

@pyrodactyl: I'm surprised you wasted valuable (at least right now still) upgrade points on a well known to be butts Perk tree. Again it's quite a giant pile of butts only because of Six-Shooter. If someone find themselves in that situation, as many might, you can either...

• Play the tree anyways and learn to deal with the extremely quick Super (I did fine with it in the Beta)
• Play the other perk tree, it isn't awful, as the only real drawback is Knife Juggler not being all that great due to a lack of damage output.
• Or play another Hunter Subclass, though there aren't many others that stand out right now in PvP. I do not recommend this option.
• Or don't play PvP on a Hunter at all. This might be the go to answer for those with 3 characters who don't have to play one of them. This might be you Pyro. (This isn't really an option for me though, as I will probably be doing 3 Flawless runs on each character per week)

My assessment of Stormcaller is "Arc soul is great fun in PVP, but if I pick that tree my super sucks, and that sucks." We agree that the top tree makes the super and overall class much more PVP friendly.

@spaceinsomniac: Ah, I gotcha. Arc Soul is cool, but I wonder if it wouldn't be any more than a gimmick in PvP. But I do agree and wish we could mix and match perks of the same station on Subclasses and it should be up to Player discretion on whether or not to run those perks, for good or bad. But Bungie thinks that is OP because we come up with better builds than they can with their own Perks.

@pyrodactyl: when I wrote the comment I was thinking about the gunslinger subclass. Its super has the highest chance of shooting three out of 4 opponents. It also has a ranged mele attack. When you think about the hunter you find that it requires more skill and utilization for it to reach it's full potential.

You are right when you pointed out that the hunter is the worst when it comes to team support. I really wish that Bungie gave him a support skill.

I won't enjoy betraying my hunter like that but it has to be done until this gets unfucked. The only reason I will sometimes play my Hunter in PvP is to get the OP exotic boots I'm missing AKA the best exotic in the game

PSA: In case you didn't know, Arcstrider super dodge has no cooldown. If you use the bottom skill tree it also reduces damage taken when dodging. You can use it to close down on most enemy classes.

I only wish that they add some sort of i-frame into the arcstrider super dodge, so if timed right, I can evade a panic titan smash/warlock nova.

@galerian: Yeah, it's also an incredibly terrible animation that doesn't close gaps well. I thought that dodge roll in Arcstrider would be useful, but it's not useful at all. Maybe when mixed with erratic Blinks it could be good.

@hestilllives19: This is only a feeling at the moment, but super dodging to me feels a lot quicker in closing gaps than straight up running.

None. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. If you think one is underpowered, you're likely using it wrong.

No, you are not invincible as an Arcstrider and aren't supposed to be. If you're the type of person that pops their Super with two people around the corner and they are far away from you, then charge them like a lunatic and get killed, you shouldn't complain you got killed. The amount of people I see charging forth mindlessly is staggering. Then seeing a bunch of complaints on Reddit how bad the Super is. No, it isn't. You're just using it wrong.

There's just a lot of misconceptions out there because people still play the game by D1 rules and logic. For example, the Arcstrider's dodge with one of the perk trees makes you survive Super attacks even when you are not in your Super. I have survived a smash, a dawnblade attack and a Titan shield smack which were all direct hits. In the Super it's even crazier.

For Nightstalker it has the hidden perk Blood Bound. You can kill the entire opposing team even if they are around a corner by killing one person. Yet people try to use it as an offensive Super by just jumping into a group of people and hoping they hit someone.

I truly haven't seen a single subclass that is bad in PvP so far. I am somewhat of an average player. When I consistently get to the top of the score board with any subclass that means they aren't trash.

First of all, great names for all the powers!

Secondly...I'm not sure, honestly. I only have one character, a Titan, and my PvP experience is gonna be mostly limited to getting the daily and weekly stuff done. I will say that as a Titan, I think the Fists of Havoc are the "worst." I feel super exposed when using it; the time between starting the animation and dealing damage is too long. Now, there are certainly great uses of it, like if 3 enemies just took a control point and you can get in there before they disperse. But overall I feel like it's the worst one from the Titan's list.

@zevvion: if you managed to find success with arc staff it's either because you were playing against bad players or you cought your opponents off guard. A super that require you to blind side your opponent is a bad super. When you super you shouldn't get destroyed by people jumping backward. Arcstrider struggles to kill a single target in a one on one situation. It's pure garbage. Because of blink and other much better movement option as well as health regen on kill, arc blade was a much better super in PvP. Arc blade was not that good either, it was just way better than this trash

You know which is the only other super that struggles in one on one situations? Void bow. Hunters really have the 2 worst PvP supers in the game

Based on my personal experience, the super I fear the least is Arc Hunter. It just doesn't seem like it closes distance the way the Bladedancer did I'm Destiny 1. Any distance and I can just backpedal and headshot until they go down.

The one I fear the most is Striker. You don't have to aim it and it instantly kills multiple people. At least with things like Sunbreaker and others, you have to aim and get close.

@zevvion: I was reading about the hunter's nightstalker subclass and what I have read sounded pretty cool. With it you can make your teammates invisible with Vanish in Smoke ability. You can also have the equivalent of blink in this game which is Vanishing Step. Have you tried it on PvP? If so what do you think?

I guess what hunter is missing with its super ability is the element of surprise which I believe is what the op is trying to say.

@pyrodactyl: I kill Strikers in 1v1 that charge me from a distance, but Fist of Havoc is a strong Super I would say. With energy weapons dealing increased damage to people in their Supers, you just can't charge people anymore like you could in D1. You need to get angles on guys, flank them, be covered while you go for them or surprise them. Popping your Super around the corner and then sprinting forward just won't work, with any Super. Other than Golden Gun that is.