I can't help but think it feels insanely cheap.

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So I just lost like 5 duels in a row, and it always comes down to people spamming the guard break. Yes, if you happen to go for one at the same time, you can cancel it, but they take what, like half a second to happen? I've never intentionally blocked one in over 10 hours of play.

On top of that, is there seriously no way to prevent the followup attack/throw? If you're near a ledge, combat just devolves into "who can throw each other off the side", with literally nothing required other than successfully connecting with a guard break, and then the throw.

Needless to say it makes me go from "This is pretty neat" to literally smashing my controller off the floor because I don't see any way I could've prevented a loss (R.I.P Xbox One right trigger).

How have you guys found the combat in terms of balancing? Unless there's a way to reliably block or parry the guard breaks and their followups, I think it's gonna be the main reason a wider audience just thinks "F**k this"

When I was playing the beta I chanced upon this strategy and won a whole lot of duels. The guard break is outrageously strong and it happens so fast you rarely get punished for it. Btw you definitely can't do anything about the stun or throw that I could find. It's kind of wild.

That being said it'll probably be a situation where this strategy becomes easy to counter as the game goes on and people figure things out. Kind of like Bastion in early overwatch.

Let me preface this by saying I've barely touched the game, but doesn't the guard break have an insanely short range ? From my short time with the game the impression I got was that the combat isn't really about the blocking and swinging stuff, just like a fighting game it's all about learning the range of attacks and weaving in and out of range to poke or bait attacks.

So the way to counter the guard-breakers is by just spamming light attacks. If you are at any point already in an attacking animation while your opponent is attempting to guard-break, you will win and simply attack them and their guard-break fails.

The other way (which is less reliable) is to dodge. The problem with dodging is it takes a lot of stamina (side dodges might take much less?) and is more timing based.

You are correct that falling is pretty dumb in the game and everyone takes advantage of how easy it is to win fights by throwing people off edges. I almost won a 4v1 by throwing 3 guys off a ledge one at a time. I lost the 1v1 at the end because the last guy said "Fair Fight" and I didn't want to give him a shitty ending.

The guard-break isn't cheap, it's part of the combat so people don't just sit blocking the whole time. Whats cheap is throwing people off ledges for instant kills which are unrez-able (definitely not a word).

I think there are probably a bit too many cliffs, spike traps, fires, and really deep ponds in this game. Guardbreaks are indeed guaranteed damage or instant kills in the right spot. That said its definitely not the cheapest thing in the game(lets talk about unblockable charge setups/mixups). I'm pretty terrible at countering guardbreaks and I do fine. Try listening for the sound instead of the animation before trying to counter.

Mostly I found that spacing and hitting them with light attacks works wonders, since you can't be grabbed out of attacks. I think Dan tried throwing in the quicklook and got destroyed by someone light attacking over and over. I've also seen people just straight up run away to a safer spot in duels. Though there are some really fucked up maps. Its even possible to successfully counter a guardbreak and the small shove pushing you off a ledge. Also some classes, Warlord especially, have really good throws. Meanwhile Kensei,and some tohers, can dash forward and guradbreak you. So yea, spacing is really important. Dashing and rolling is also really helpful.

I'm not 100% sure on this ,but it feels like there are situations where you can't counter guardbreak. I know being in revenge does that to people for sure. But I've had situations where it looks like I caught them whiffing an attack or a guardbreak attempt and I counter it with my own.

How to counter guardbreak? dont just stand there and guard... If you lose every match because people guardbreak you then you should try the attack button.

Edit: also countering the guardbreak is not reactionbased but rather timing based. If you press "at the same time" you wont counter it, you need to wait until his animation "connects with you" you and thats when you press the button. Maybe you try to counter it to early going by your description.

The guard breaks in my opinion are just another aspect of the game mechanics. They make it so the game is less about just guarding passively and being active in some way whether its evading it or using an attack that has frame advantage. Guard breaks in this game seem to be the equivalent of jumping attacks in 2D fighting games. Much like in 2D fighting games where if you get really consistent at punishing people who rely on jumping attacks, I think mastering how to counter guard breaks will make it so you can outplay probably 80% of the people playing right now. It is just going to take practice.

This sounds like something that will go away once more people play and people figure out how to overcome stuff. That or the guard break will just get nerfed to f'n death.

Back dashing or de-locking and running away is sure fire way to get got. Dashing has a huge window for guard breaks and fast characters like the Peacekeeper or any class with a good charge attack are going to punish this hard. Throw out a light if you see anyone trying to just walk into range as itll pre-empt a guard break. Or play the Nobushi and counter guard break spammers or overzealous Peacekeepers by bleed poking from range.

For 1v1s audio cues are huge. The timing on parrys and guard breaks is so much easier to hit if you listen closely. The window for these moves is actually somewhat forgiving but the animation is often misleading. The advanced tutorial is a great way to practice this as theres a whole section on parrys and guard breaks with AI dudes.

To be honest the things I'm finding the most broken are stuns into unblockable combos which the Warlord in particular is REALLY good at. Currently it makes any high level engagement devolve into a game of "who can land their one best combo first"

I'd be fine with a lot of the problems if there was split screen so you and a buddy could have a laugh about it together.

The netcode is horrible, so until that gets fixed I can't play this thing at all. I really wish I didn't fall for Ubisoft again.

Between the full release and the beta i think i've put 20 hours into the game, here are my quick thoughts on those issues.
They are definitely scary situations which are hard to deal with for anyone, to deal with a guard break happy opponent in regular combat you can safely attack more because attacks can't be guard broken, it leads to you just slicing your opponent to pieces very quickly, if they start mixing it up with regular attacks more then start looking out for it so you can break their grab, it's easier to do if you're looking for it, for practice go into the bot duel mode lvl 2 or 3 and just block attacks waiting for guard breaks to cancel, eventually you'll start to notice the guard break icon that pops up when someone is doing it and cancelling it instinctively, one way to reduce having to deal with guard breaks is to use the assassin class, they have lots of dodge attacks so you can side step everything leaving your enemy feeling dumb.
As for an opponent looking to throw you off a ledge constantly, don't stand near a ledge, if you want to throw someone off a ledge yourself just be prepared for it to potentially happen to you instead.

I won't say the game is balanced well, i think Ubisoft have to tweak some of the characters or mechanics to improve the game, as well as fix the technical issues around the connectivity and match making, but i'm enjoying it as it is.

If this is a fighting game, then the guard break is the throw. You generally can't block throws in fighting games, so it makes sense that you can't block the guard break. I think the point is to maintain distance and remain aggressive, because if they close on you when you're turtling, you get punished for it. I was able to use it very well in the beta because people spend too much time preemptively blocking. Try to spend less time anticipating being attacked, and more time doing the attacking.

Yeah, the current balance of the combat is honestly not good. The game's defensive options are far too powerful, so the only means of getting strong, consistent damage on opponents is generally through guard breaks. They can be broken, but they changed the window to be more difficult after the open beta. That said, they've announced that they're changing it back.

Once you get used to countering guard breaks, the next issue is that the game revolves entirely around parrying in order to get guaranteed guard breaks, and thus guaranteed high damage. Unless you're the warden or maybe particularly tricky as assassin, attacking is straight up a bad idea. The mechanics are great up to a point, but then you start to see the many, many issues this game has mechanically, and that's not even talking about the class imbalances.

That said, Ubisoft seems to be committed to the game, so I'm hoping they can turn things around fast, since this has the potential to be truly great if they fix the issues. Even still, it's a ton of fun, just completely imbalanced.

@haxdax: I don't think getting pushed over a ledge/into spikes is cheap. It's part of the game. If I get pushed off of a ledge then it's my fault for losing control of my positioning, forgetting to dodge, or getting guard broken. I just need to remember to keep away from environmental dangers. This is further emphasized if I'm fighting characters who can control your positioning if they get the upper hand: heroes like Raider, Shugoki, Lawbringer, Conqueror and Valkyrie have ways of getting their opponents into environmental hazards. This goes for the Lawbringer especially- right now, his neutral game is kind of awful and has to rely on environmental dangers or side heavies after his shove to kill a decent opponent. The good news is that a lot of this can be dodged or require them to put their opponents in a certain state. Conqueror and Valkyrie's shield bashes, Raider's charging carry, and Lawbringer's shove all can be dodged. Shugoki needs a guard break to do his golf swing or landing a light or heavy to headbutt. It feels cheap because I'm not expecting it, but as I play more and learn I'll be far less likely to fall for it.

My wife got this game for me and I think its crap. Devolves into chrap tactics and who has the better gear. People just spam with no punishment. Matchmaking doesn't even bother to put you with similar level characters

Yeah this is exactly what I was afraid of, and hence why I didn't buy the game after playing in a beta weekend a while ago. This, plus the environmental stuff (which I also grew to intensely dislike) seem like questionable choices on top of a decent underlying idea.

Too many questionable choices, though, and it's hard to see past it all. These things could be tuned/balanced better, but I dunno what this game will be like in 6 months - probably hell for newer players just picking it up

@giantstalker: I mean... if you lose to people spamming attacks you are just not good at the game yet though. I defeat everyone who tries to spam attacks and people who spam guard breaks are especially weak because any regular attack overtakes a guard-break attempt. Guard breaking is literally the weakest attack in the game. The absolute only thing that loses to a guard-break, is an idle warrior. Dodging, rolling, attacking, feinting > all immune to guard-break. In addition, attacks just stun a guard-break attempt.

This is just people not being good at the game yet and thinking something is OP when it really isn't. Mark my words, a couple of weeks from now you'll be watching streams where if someone guard-breaks you and bashes you off a cliff, it's like a basketball player dribbling through your legs. Real hard to pull off.

@zevvion: Some classes can be guard broken in their dodge animation. Some heavy attacks can be interrupted by a guard break. The biggest problem with the change in guard break between now and the open beta is that if two people go to guard break at the same time, the person who started a millisecond earlier wins and there's nothing you can do about it. Fortunately, Ubisoft has acknowledged the issue and guard break counter is going back to where it was in the beta. I couldn't be happier, because there are so many Orochi players out there that only know how to do the guard break 3 hit combo.

They've also announced that Valkyrie is getting buffs to just about everything (boy does she need it. Love the character in concept but she just gets stomped on by everyone right now). They're also changing the bug where if a conqueror or berserker get a light attack blocked, their opponent can get in a free guard break.

@giantstalker: Yeah, I'm of two minds on the environmental kills myself. On one hand, there are some areas that are clearly designed for environmental kills to be the primary way to kill people. Some of the narrow bridges, docks, that one area in the castle level where the spike pits are. I'm fine with environmental kills being in, because it's pretty obvious on the map where they can happen. If it happens to you, that's on you for bad positioning.

On the other hand, I detest how the animation on longer throws makes it look like your character has fully stopped their momentum right on the edge of a cliff, then suddenly they tumble over the additional 2 feet. Looks really bad and is frustrating every time.

@sammo21: Gear A) isn't better just different early in the game and B) is disabled half the time other tha for looks. It certainly doesn't make or break many matches.

As for people spamming, I haven't seen much of that, but I tend to mix things up and try to be offensive. If you're seeing spamming, you probably need to spend some time learning a hero's full moveset and then applying yourself against real opponents. It's not an easy game to get into.

Honestly my biggest issue is how inconsistent the Viking Vanguard's sprinting guard block is. The number of times I bump against a guy and then just slip around him to finish the animation at his 7 or 5 oclock is ridiculous. It never seems to hit, no matter how careful I am at lining it up and timing when I start it. I just clumsily bounce off people. I wouldn't mind just getting smacked out of it but it's always the game failing to recognize it connecting.

It's about learning the quirks of every class, and knowing their movesets to effectively counter or avoid them. I haven't been grabbed for the last forty matches, because it's obvious when they're going to do it, and easily avoided once you can pick up on their body language (edging closer to you, rolling at you, running, etc.)

Learning the maps is key to know if there is a wall behind you, or any narrow sections that certain players will exploit. If they're one of the quicker classes, you can expect that cornering you isn't going to be a priority for them -- it's actually a disadvantage for them if you're a burly guy -- so you can focus more on dodging and attacking them when they rush at you which is common. Big combos followed by good defense is a good technique against nifty classes. 1-2-3, block for a bit, get out of their offense cone, 1-2, dodge, dodge. Try and make them impatient -- they tend to be compared to bigger dudes -- and always randomize where you're going to strike, don't plan it. Not knowing what you're going to do next is a great way to avoid telegraphing, which is another huge weakness for bigger guys outside of bashes and running moves that are unblockable in certain cases. I can always see straight away what they're going to do. Orochi and Valkyrie and those classes are way better at Bruce Lee-level spontaneity.

I haven't faced someone I couldn't beat at least once, even if they won in the end. Shield bashes and full on running moves from the bigger guys are my Achilles heel at the moment, but I'm figuring out rolling out of the way with a double-tap is the only sure-fire tactic to avoid it, as opposed to the more sidestep dodge that one button press initiates. Always maintain distance with those guys. Orochi is great as he can side-step and attack their sides, or dodge backwards and follow it with a forward-lunging attack.

Guard break for me is most effective when they're low on health (red flashing). As long as you have not used it during the fight, they just won't expect it now they're focusing on not getting hit. Run straight for them without blocking, and grab, then mash light attack. Works for me more often than not, and is a decent way for a quick dispatch. I only use it if I'm low on health myself too, though.

I don't think anyone is overpowered, and the guard break is so easy to avoid if you keep at it and learn to counter it, dodge it, or time a guard break back at them to get out of it, which is a good way of getting a hit on them actually.

Just some of my thoughts. I think this is the best multiplayer game in years, personally. So much fun when you get the hang of it. Risk and reward, and there is a vibe of chivalry that has developed already. There is etiquette in how you play. Not everyone follows it, but it's better than any I've played before.

@nophilip: That is either a bug, or untrue. I am guard broken 0% of the time while someone attempts it during an attack of mine, heavy or otherwise.

@zevvion: Specifically, light attacks counter guard breaks. Heavy attacks generally do not. It mostly depends on how far in the animation the heavy attack progresses before the GB happens. Since heavies tend to come out a lot more slowly, it's possible to interrupt some with a GB.

What class(es) do you play? I main Berserker and have put in a bunch of time on Valkyrie and Raider as well, and have seen heavies interrupted by GB on all three. I especially have my Berserker heavy top attack interrupted by guard break when not using it as a finisher. Usually when playing against PK, Lawbringer, or Orochi.

@nophilip: Yeah, but now you're talking about getting broken if someone already attempted a guard-break and you try to counter it with a heavy. I will believe that doesn't work. I have only played Kensei so far by the way. Either way, guard-break doesn't seem OP to me. It's so easy to counter.

I think the game is surprisingly well balanced. The hitboxes from running attacks are a little strange but otherwize it is really solid. I've always wanted a game like this. It's souls pvp but good and more complex.

I don't think guard break is op. The fat samursi has a glitch ghost-double hit attack that is complete bull but they will hopefully fix it soon.

Btw I suck at this game but have still had some glorious moments.

@zevvion: My apologies, I could have phrased that more clearly. When I refer to a light attack countering a GB, I'm referring to anticipating an opponent that has been using guard break frequently. If you are early animation on a light attack and they GB you, you will not be broken. If you are early animation on a heavy attack and they GB you, sometimes you will be, depending on the attack.

Because of this, one of the best ways to counter a GB-heavy opponent is to spam light attacks instead of heavies.

Try not to remain that close to an enemy that is guard break heavy, dodge back and space yourself. It is annoying but it can be countered, I try not to get anywhere near ledges either and I rarely get thrown off. It's also only one round you got to shake it off and win the rounds with no environmental deaths.

Haven't had a chance to mess around with the multiplayer, but from all I've seen watching videos and streams combined with the things I'm hearing said about For Honor, it's looking more and more likely I'll only really want to play bot matches. One chapter through the singleplayer campaign and I can tell I don't really have the wherewithal to invest the time and effort into being even remotely competitive.

I see I'm not the only one who thought the tutorial did a bad job of explaining when to counter guard breaks (it's about when they first touch you, not when it starts).

Hate the game when it puts me up against 20th prestige savages that tear me apart; love it when it matches me up with other new-ish players. I just ran into a 19th prestige who killed me by blocking my attacks? I didn't understand that.

For Honor is poorly balanced, but guard break isn't the culprit. With a bit of practice, you can tech it 90% of the time.

The primary culprit is parry. 90% of the movelist of each character is rendered completely worthless by this single mechanic. There is no reason to ever attack a competent player and certainly no reason to combo unless you feel like eating a parry and a guaranteed follow-up. The only character in the game that has any means of starting some form of offence is the Warden, and only because he has a spammable 50/50 vortex.

This may not become clear now but take it from someone who plays a metric ton of this genre of video games, it will be a major problem within the next few months.

Hearing that they're going to take guard breaks back to the way they were in beta is good news for me. I've definitely hit it at nearly the same time as my opponent (not as a reaction but just happened that way) and it's just frustrating to get guard broken because of them hitting it a tenth of a second before me.

For me the most personally frustrating things have been:

-Players who exclusively go for ledge kills and just spend the entire match standing near an environmental thing

-Fighting a team of 4 Orochis

-Shugoki mirrors.

Had a bad time today. Played three matches of 2v2 with different people each time and on all three I was attacked from behind by the winner of the other duel going on while I was mid-fight. No honor indeed!

On the last match I had enough, and my random partner did too, and he basically won his match fair and square, then came to my aid and ganked the guy who done me over while I was fighting him. He messaged, "Now YOU are the one who's been scummed!" It made me laugh and got me back on board with powering on, but that is some buuuull shit.

30 kills and only four deaths today though. I think I'm finally getting the hang of things at least.

Picked this up after the generally warm reaction from various outlet. I bought the digitally for PC which was my first mistake. Doesn't seem like there are many players online and I spend much of my time waiting for matches to begin. It also means that i'm getting matched with people who've played a butt load of this game and out rank me significantly. This make learning difficult. Think I should have got the disk version on PS4. The game can be fun but damn does it make me salty. You can be having a great battle with someone then you'l get interrupted from behind by there team mates.

Guard Breaks need to be tech-able. Pretty simple.

There can be cheap play but stuff like environmental kills and guard breaks are definitely counterable/avoidable. Also, with the revenge mode even in situations where you're ganged up on it's possible to survive at least until other teammates come if not kill one of the other team. Obviously this is super rare, but the other day I was in an elimination match and all of the players in the lobby formed a circle and we took turns 1v1ing each other over the course of multiple matches. It was freaking awesome. So yea, I think there's a lot of cool stuff in this game even though some of it is frustrating especially at first.

They... Are?

1) Only a Parry leads to a guaranteed guard break. Stuns(where your screen flashes white) make it so you can't see the direction indicator on your opponents follow up attack. This means instead of looking for a red arrow or a blue shield, you have to pay attention to your opponents animations to counter a guard break after a stun.

2) Guard break counters are timing based. Hit the guard break button just as your opponents guard break animation connects with your character.

3) Every Unblockable can be Dodged or Parried. Even Unblockables such as charges or sweeps, because they can't be Parried they are even easier to Dodge (literally any direction).

4) Even maps with a lot of pits(bridge maps) have safe zones. If you just run back to a safe zone and hang out for a bit, 9 times out of 10 your opponent will come to you.