As Double Fine’s Kickstarter Nears an End, Wasteland 2’s Begins

Brian Fargo just makes me think of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode "Danger!! Death Ray", whose main protagonist was Bart Fargo.

@Jumanji said:

@Hailinel said:

@Dagbiker

@Jumanji said:

@JLF1 said:

@Jumanji said:

exploit - use or manipulate to one's advantage

I know what exploition means. I still don't see how this is exploition.

I guess you mean exploitation? You don't see how developers are using kickstarter to their own advantage? When Brian Fargo raises a million dollars with Kickstarter, is he just going to give it to a nonprofit Wasteland 2 trust?

They are exploiting the Backers as much as the backers are exploiting Doublefine/inXile. Both people have something or can do something the other wants. and it is a mutually beneficial relationship.

One might even call it symbiotic. We give them money to make a game that they want to make and that we want to play.

"Exploit" doesn't necessarily connote an illegitimate or immoral use... Regardless, what kind of a game do you think you're going to get? You guys are creaming about this like it's Boyarsky/Taylor/Cain/Avellone going back to the Infinity Engine. It isn't. This is very much the B Team.

While you're right that it doesn't have quite the weight of all the people you mentioned, I'm not sure why it should. This is a Wasteland sequel. He's gathering people from the original Wasteland team, including one of the co-creators of Fallout, and the composer for the first two Fallouts and Planescape: Torment for good measure. All sounding good to me so far.

As for what kind of game people think they're going to get? Sort of an easy question to answer. Fargo's stated numerous times what type of game this is going to be.

Jesus - people are dumb. If anyone who is dumping on this REALLY knew how projects USUALLY get funded - they would be shocked. Starting companies/projects is dirty messy shit, and often requires that you sell your soul to the devil. In no way is this exploitation. If you think it is, go pitch one of your ideas to a VC or a studio and let us know how it goes.

@Jumanji said:

You really think Tim Schafer couldn't secure a $400k line of credit? This is my point about exploitating people's vanity and nostalgia. In your one line post, you propagate the myth that by contributing to the Kickstarter, you're helping Tim Schafer - the good, funny, cool nerd - undermine the eeeevil suits who don't want you to have old-fashioned fun. IN REALITY, Tim Schafer used this perception to secure free financing and marketing for what would otherwise have been "just another quirky Doublefine release".

You are aware that Double Fine has had some troubled financial times right? They almost had to fire people after a project crashed. Where have you gotten this idea that Double Fine is some large company with a ton of money?

I really don't see how this is different from buying any other product. Or how this is exploiting fans more than any other publisher or developer does. Would you want to buy a sequel to Wasteland? Yes I would, Would you buy a sequel to Halo 3? Yes I woud, would you buy a new game from Suda 51? Yes I would. There's no difference.

Why do you find it so horrible that people are spending money on products they want?

While you're right that it doesn't have quite the weight of all the people you mentioned, I'm not sure why it should. This is a Wasteland sequel. He's gathering people from the original Wasteland team, including one of the co-creators of Fallout, and the composer for the first two Fallouts and Planescape: Torment for good measure. All sounding good to me so far.

As for what kind of game people think they're going to get? Sort of an easy question to answer. Fargo's stated numerous times what type of game this is going to be.

@mostman said:

Jesus - people are dumb. If anyone who is dumping on this REALLY knew how projects USUALLY get funded - they would be shocked. Starting companies/projects is dirty messy shit, and often requires that you sell your soul to the devil. In no way is this exploitation. If you think it is, go pitch one of your ideas to a VC or a studio and let us know how it goes.

I paid because fuck man, it's wasteland - the cloth map and physical instruction manual is the icing on the cake

I'm expecting an RPG that, if anything, is more in line with the original Wasteland than with Fallout or anything resembling that nature. I'm not sure why you're so bent on shitting on this.

@Jumanji said:

I would be astonished if an enterprise the size of Double Fine couldn't get $400k on short notice. Those would be dire straits indeed. But forget Double Fine. If Tim Schafer believes so much in his own project, or Fargo, or whomever, why don't those guys HELOC their homes and put that money down on the project? And convince their teams to do the same? Like 50 Cent said, "if an entertainer can't make bail, then he broke as hell." If you're running a high profile studio and you think you've got something that's a sure bet, why not take a risk on it? They don't do that because with Kickstarter and appeals to PC gamer narcissism, they don't have to. Instead of having to do a cost-benefit analysis to a loan officer or a publisher, they offer you, the gamer, the chance to be a part of something bigger than yourself. All you have to do is put your money where Tim Schafer's mouth is. Free financing, awesome. And then there's the marketing. I don't believe that the Doublefine or Wasteland stuff would have such a high profile without Kickstarter. I feel like the model encourages people to suspend their critical faculties and instead get on board with Team Schafer or Team Fargo. How is this different from any other product from any other developer? Would you put money down sight unseen for the next Suda 51 game? Would you do it for Halo 3? Some hardcore fans pre-order. I wouldn't. I wait for the review, and never would I ever lend money or marketing clout to EA or Activision out of the kindness of my heart.

So you're telling me that you've never said to yourself "Oh, a sequel to this game, I can't wait"?

I have to ask you again. Why do you have a personal problem with this?

@Jumanji said:

@JLF1 said:

@Jumanji said:

You really think Tim Schafer couldn't secure a $400k line of credit? This is my point about exploitating people's vanity and nostalgia. In your one line post, you propagate the myth that by contributing to the Kickstarter, you're helping Tim Schafer - the good, funny, cool nerd - undermine the eeeevil suits who don't want you to have old-fashioned fun. IN REALITY, Tim Schafer used this perception to secure free financing and marketing for what would otherwise have been "just another quirky Doublefine release".

You are aware that Double Fine has had some troubled financial times right? They almost had to fire people after a project crashed. Where have you gotten this idea that Double Fine is some large company with a ton of money?

I really don't see how this is different from buying any other product. Or how this is exploiting fans more than any other publisher or developer does. Would you want to buy a sequel to Wasteland? Yes I would, Would you buy a sequel to Halo 3? Yes I woud, would you buy a new game from Suda 51? Yes I would. There's no difference.

Why do you find it so horrible that people are spending money on products they want?

I would be astonished if an enterprise the size of Double Fine couldn't get $400k on short notice. Those would be dire straits indeed. But forget Double Fine. If Tim Schafer believes so much in his own project, or Fargo, or whomever, why don't those guys HELOC their homes and put that money down on the project? And convince their teams to do the same? Like 50 Cent said, "if an entertainer can't make bail, then he broke as hell." If you're running a high profile studio and you think you've got something that's a sure bet, why not take a risk on it? They don't do that because with Kickstarter and appeals to PC gamer narcissism, they don't have to. Instead of having to do a cost-benefit analysis to a loan officer or a publisher, they offer you, the gamer, the chance to be a part of something bigger than yourself. All you have to do is put your money where Tim Schafer's mouth is. Free financing, awesome. And then there's the marketing. I don't believe that the Doublefine or Wasteland stuff would have such a high profile without Kickstarter. I feel like the model encourages people to suspend their critical faculties and instead get on board with Team Schafer or Team Fargo. How is this different from any other product from any other developer? Would you put money down sight unseen for the next Suda 51 game? Would you do it for Halo 3? Some hardcore fans pre-order. I wouldn't. I wait for the review, and never would I ever lend money or marketing clout to EA or Activision out of the kindness of my heart.

You'd rather these people risk their homes for game financing? Do you have any idea how insane that is?

You apparently don't understand what it takes to run a business. You also apparently overestimate the size of Double Fine.

@Jumanji said:

@Fjordson said:

While you're right that it doesn't have quite the weight of all the people you mentioned, I'm not sure why it should. This is a Wasteland sequel. He's gathering people from the original Wasteland team, including one of the co-creators of Fallout, and the composer for the first two Fallouts and Planescape: Torment for good measure. All sounding good to me so far.

As for what kind of game people think they're going to get? Sort of an easy question to answer. Fargo's stated numerous times what type of game this is going to be.

I think we're going to get the kind of game that Brian Fargo has been producing for the past 15 years. If you think that is a "good" game, by all means, donate to the kickstarter.

Fair enough. Personally, I don't really feel that inXile's recent output has much to do with this. Different talent, different production method, different type of game.

Someone cares far too much about how other people spend their money.

@Jumanji said:

@Hailinel said:

I'm expecting an RPG that, if anything, is more in line with the original Wasteland than with Fallout or anything resembling that nature. I'm not sure why you're so bent on shitting on this.

And I'm expecting a hack job more in line with Fargo et al's output since the 90s. Your hypothesis: they've been waiting to make this game for YEARS but have been held back by NARROW MINDED PUBLISHERS who underestimate REAL PC GAMERS and their AUTHENTIC DESIRES. My hypothesis: Fargo smells like failure to people who actually care about getting a tangible return on their money. But Kickstarter gave him an opportunity to take his quack show to a fresh, gullible audience that wants to believe. I swear, you guys are like a car with the doors unlocked and the window rolled down.

Do he fire you or something? You seem to have a very personal vendetta against him.

Holy shit, just heard that Notch of Minecraft fame dropped $10,000 on this! And Mike Capps (CEO of Epic Games) kicked in $5000!

That's pretty awesome.

@Brodehouse said:

Someone cares far too much about how other people spend their money.

At this point, he seems more intent on trolling than anything else. I'm through talking to him.

Also, I just pledged $100 to the project.

@Jumanji said:

I would be astonished if an enterprise the size of Double Fine couldn't get $400k on short notice. Those would be dire straits indeed. But forget Double Fine. If Tim Schafer believes so much in his own project, or Fargo, or whomever, why don't those guys HELOC their homes and put that money down on the project? And convince their teams to do the same? Like 50 Cent said, "if an entertainer can't make bail, then he broke as hell." If you're running a high profile studio and you think you've got something that's a sure bet, why not take a risk on it? They don't do that because with Kickstarter and appeals to PC gamer narcissism, they don't have to. Instead of having to do a cost-benefit analysis to a loan officer or a publisher, they offer you, the gamer, the chance to be a part of something bigger than yourself. All you have to do is put your money where Tim Schafer's mouth is. Free financing, awesome. And then there's the marketing. I don't believe that the Doublefine or Wasteland stuff would have such a high profile without Kickstarter. I feel like the model encourages people to suspend their critical faculties and instead get on board with Team Schafer or Team Fargo. How is this different from any other product from any other developer? Would you put money down sight unseen for the next Suda 51 game? Would you do it for Halo 3? Some hardcore fans pre-order. I wouldn't. I wait for the review, and never would I ever lend money or marketing clout to EA or Activision out of the kindness of my heart.

So you're telling me that you've never said to yourself "Oh, a sequel to this game, I can't wait"?

I have to ask you again. Why do you have a personal problem with this?

Anyone who is down on this should probably be banned from the site.

I'm just saying, they probably aren't going to contribute anything that meaningful.

"Wasteland is about as hardcore as RPGs come, which explains the lack of Wasteland 2."

haha - that's how I feel about this. I will NOT be supporting these guys with money. I don't understand why anyone would want this. Wasteland begat Fallout, and Fallout is excellent. To me, this would be like thumbing your nose up at all the great Mario games we've gotten in the past 25 years and demanding Miyamoto make another Popeye title. The only people I could see wanting InXile to make Wasteland 2 is InXile, because they haven't yet made a game anyone has cared about.

But Double Fine making a new Adventure Game? THAT'S something that is not outdated. That's something people want, and have wanted, for a loooong time.

I do not expect Kickstarter to suddenly save every video game from not being made. Double Fine's example is special. InXile Entertainment is hardly beloved, or well known. And if you DO know them, you probably don't like them - they did make Hunted: The Demon's Forge, after all. And, like, Line Rider for Wii. That's...sort of the opposite reputation that Double Fine has.

If this gets made, good for people who want it, I suppose. But I will totally ignore it regardless.

@vinsanityv22 said:

"Wasteland is about as hardcore as RPGs come, which explains the lack of Wasteland 2."

haha - that's how I feel about this. I will NOT be supporting these guys with money. I don't understand why anyone would want this. Wasteland begat Fallout, and Fallout is excellent. To me, this would be like thumbing your nose at all the great Mario games we've gotten in the past 25 years and demanding Miyamoto make another Popeye title.

But Double Fine making a new Adventure Game? THAT'S something that is not outdated. That's something people want, and have wanted, for a loooong time.

I do not expect Kickstarter to suddenly save every video game from not being made. Double Fine's example is special. eXile Entertainment is hardly beloved, or well known. And if you DO know them, you probably don't like them - they did make Hunted: The Demon's Forge, after all. And, like, Line Rider for Wii. That's...sort of the opposite reputation that Double Fine has.

There are companies that are still producing RPGs in the hardcore dungeon-crawler vibe of yesteryear. There's absolutely no reason why a game evolved from Wasteland couldn't work in this day and age.

You'd rather these people risk their homes for game financing? Do you have any idea how insane that is?

You apparently don't understand what it takes to run a business. You also apparently overestimate the size of Double Fine.

@Jumanji: Sure Tim Schafer could have found funding somewhere else, but then the risk would have still be on Double Fine or the publisher. If a publishers is involved then they're going to want a certain amount of control over how their money is spent.

I don't understand why so many people are against these Kickstarters. They're aimed at people interested in the product they're proposing. If you don't want it that's fine, but that's why they've gone with Kickstarter to see if people want it. What's the point in them risking their own money if no one's interested in what they're selling. This is why publishers do market research and focus groups to see what the hell people might want, but from all they can tell the current trends are shooters so that's what they'll fund.

@Jumanji said:

My only hope is that people realize that these developers aren't choosing to go to Kickstarter because they're just too real for publishers. It's because Kickstarter offers $ benefits above and beyond what a conventional financing and distribution deal does, and it ONLY DOES SO because people mindlessly squee instead of sitting back and asking why they're being asked to take a risk that the developers themselves won't.

Any proof of that? Do you have any experience with publishing, funding or financing? Or do you simply talk out of your ass?

It is very clear what you are spending your money on on either of these projects. There is no difference between this or take a publisher announcing Halo 4 and thousands of people immediately pre-ordering the game without seeing anything of it. It's clear that the DF Adventure game is a pet project by adventure fans for adventure fans.

Again, where's the hidden agenda? The scam? the dark secret?

All I get from you is "It's different, so it has to be wrong"

@Jumanji said:

@CrimsonNoir said:

@Jumanji: Sure Tim Schafer could have found funding somewhere else, but then the risk would have still be on Double Fine or the publisher. If a publishers is involved then they're going to want a certain amount of control over how their money is spent.

So if Doublefine believes in the project, why don't they take the risk? Well, then they'd have to deal with pesky things like interest, and they wouldn't be able to recruit legions of fans with the fiction that this is the ONLY WAY this game would be made, and that they're sticking it to the big bad industry players by lending Doublefine money for free.

I'm not sure you understand the whole point of Kickstarter.

@Jumanji:You're a goofus.

I'm old, but I'm not so old that I have any nostalgia for Wasteland. I played Fallout 1 and 2 around 2008, and they were still awesome. Don't think I could get into this, but best of luck to all you geezers that want to revive it!

@Jumanji: "Would you put money down sight unseen for the next Suda 51 game?"

YES.

YES.

YESSSS.

@Jumanji said:

If they believe in the project, why not? It's exceedingly common for entrepreneurs to leverage their family's asset pool to capitalize their business. Or do you think Doublefine or inXile are somehow qualitatively different than other entrepreneurs? If so, why? Tim Schafer isn't MY friend. I've bought a lot of games that he's been involved in, but my friends don't charge my $10000 to sit down at their dinner table and chat.

So you are a conservatist then?

@Jumanji Even if this game turns out to be dull and awful, I'll still have a soundtrack from Mark Morgan, a map, and an art book, so it wouldn't be a total loss. I fucking love art books (even digital ones), and Mark Morgan's soundtracks for the Fallout games were incredible. If the game is also good, then that's awesome too. I'm not the kind of guy to get my panties in a twist if something doesn't turn out perfectly, and I understand the risks involved here. There's nothing wrong with optimism, if you're know what you're getting into.

Are they using kickstarter so they get more money per customer that way? Absolutely they are, and that means they can make a niche product that otherwise wouldn't get made at all, because the sales numbers don't have to be nearly as high for the project to be profitable. I don't see anything wrong with that.

@Jumanji said:

@CrimsonNoir said:

@Jumanji: Sure Tim Schafer could have found funding somewhere else, but then the risk would have still be on Double Fine or the publisher. If a publishers is involved then they're going to want a certain amount of control over how their money is spent.

So if Doublefine believes in the project, why don't they take the risk? Well, then they'd have to deal with pesky things like interest, and they wouldn't be able to recruit legions of fans with the fiction that this is the ONLY WAY this game would be made, and that they're sticking it to the big bad industry players by lending Doublefine money for free.

I'm not sure you understand the whole point of Kickstarter.

@Jumanji said:

My idealized version of kickstarter is a platform for supporting people who are DEAD BROKE. Not established industry veterans with securable assets like cars and property, and access to a relatively large and well developed dev pipeline, and more importantly access to conventional lines of credit. Maybe I'm old fashioned. I don't think businesses are my friends. I get suspicious when the people selling me something try to pretend that our relationship is about anything other than the product, because presumably they're trying to fleece me at some stage of the bargain.

It's such a shame you do just that every day in your live.

I don't understand why so many people are against these Kickstarters. They're aimed at people interested in the product they're proposing. If you don't want it that's fine, but that's why they've gone with Kickstarter to see if people want it. What's the point in them risking their own money if no one's interested in what they're selling. This is why publishers do market research and focus groups to see what the hell people might want, but from all they can tell the current trends are shooters so that's what they'll fund.

Well the prospect of them getting this made (turn based, party-based, top down) was pretty close to nil, so they had no capital regards to the project. The risk is that they have proposed this Kickstarter proposal, and have hired (or invited) a few people to lay out the groundwork in hopes of it getting funded. InXile has a forum dedicated to Wasteland (linked from their Kickstarter page), so if you have any question on how the development process will transpire, it'd be prudent to ask them first before committing any money.

@CrimsonNoir said:

I don't understand why so many people are against these Kickstarters. They're aimed at people interested in the product they're proposing. If you don't want it that's fine, but that's why they've gone with Kickstarter to see if people want it. What's the point in them risking their own money if no one's interested in what they're selling. This is why publishers do market research and focus groups to see what the hell people might want, but from all they can tell the current trends are shooters so that's what they'll fund.

I disagree with the framing.  "We can't make this game without your help" is MUCH DIFFERENT than "We could make this game if we were willing to put our money where our mouths are, but we aren't. Maybe you will?"

@strangone said:

@Artigkar said:

I may be way off mark here, but wasn't the first Fallout game a sort of spiritual succesor/remake of Wasteland?

Yup. Everyone who complained about DA2/Mass Effect 2 and 3 and the shittyness of their RPG elements needs to go donate right now.

@Morningstar said:

Not interested.

@CaLe said:

I was 2 when the first one came out. No connection, no money.

Looks like Wasteland 2 may not make it...

I also don't think it will be nearly as 'hardcore' as Wasteland. And that's mostly due to common sense with UI, and basic technological advancements.

I bet it will still be difficult, but not opaque and clunky.

It's the purest form of capitalism really. We consumers are going directly to the creators for the products we want.

@GiveUpNed said:

@strangone said:

@Artigkar said:

I may be way off mark here, but wasn't the first Fallout game a sort of spiritual succesor/remake of Wasteland?

Yup. Everyone who complained about DA2/Mass Effect 2 and 3 and the shittyness of their RPG elements needs to go donate right now.

@Morningstar said:

Not interested.

@CaLe said:

I was 2 when the first one came out. No connection, no money.

Looks like Wasteland 2 may not make it...

They are at 342k already. They will be fine I think.

@Brodehouse: I definitely agree there. User interface is one area that has undeniably advanced in the last two decades, irrespective of your views on game design.

Why is that a problem for you anyways? Not wanting financial risk is understandable

Crowd-sourced fundraising sites like Kickstarter have been an incredible boon to the independent development community.  They democratize the process by allowing consumers to support the games they want to see developed and give the developers the freedom to experiment, take risks, and design without anyone else compromising their vision.  It's the kind of creative luxury that most major, established studios simply can't afford.  At least, not until now.

Crowd-sourced fundraising sites like Kickstarter allow studios to leverage fan nostalgia to secure zero-interest no-term financing.

@Morningstar said:

@GiveUpNed said:

@strangone said:

@Artigkar said:

I may be way off mark here, but wasn't the first Fallout game a sort of spiritual succesor/remake of Wasteland?

Yup. Everyone who complained about DA2/Mass Effect 2 and 3 and the shittyness of their RPG elements needs to go donate right now.

@Morningstar said:

Not interested.

@CaLe said:

I was 2 when the first one came out. No connection, no money.

Looks like Wasteland 2 may not make it...

They are at 342k already. They will be fine I think.

It's already at $358K. It has a very realistic chance of making the goal at this rate.

Just to clarify my previous statement about this falling on its face, I'm not against the Kickstarter (or any Kickstarter for that matter) but I just didn't see the interest being there. 

...holding out for the Chris Avellone Kickstarter to sate my RPG needs.

@Jumanji: You conveniently forget that the backers do get something in return. It's more a full price preorder than it is a funding exercise, at least for these types of projects. That's not at all an unusual funding process. You get a distribution advance to work on a project instead of waiting for the distributor to sell then thing and give you your share.

I'm getting a game out of it. I chose the type of package I wanted to receive and the price I was willing to pay for it. I'm not a zero interest investor, I'm a customer.

@Jumanji: You conveniently forget that the backers do get something in return. It's more a full price preorder than it is a funding exercise, at least for these types of projects. That's not at all an unusual funding process. You get a distribution advance to work on a project instead of waiting for the distributor to sell then thing and give you your share.

I'm getting a game out of it. I chose the type of package I wanted to receive and the price I was willing to pay for it. I'm not a zero interest investor, I'm a customer.

Awesome. I've never played Wasteland, but Fallout is easily in my top 10 video games of all time list, and I know that Fallout is essentially the spiritual successor to Wasteland. I realize this isn't going to be another Fallout game, but I'm sure it will share elements with the original Fallout - elements that made the game special to me. They've already got Mark Morgan on the soundtrack, so that's a pretty good fucking starter.

I'll definitely pony up some dosh for this as soon as I have some.

@BisonHero said:

@rbanke said:

I'm interested in how quickly fatigue will set in with Kickstarter. People get excited about things when they first hear of it, but complacent after a while. I'll be surprised if games are able to get much out of the service after a year or so.

I think that's happened to all of the indie bundles. They used to be a somewhat rare occurrence, but now there's seemingly 2 or 3 going on every month, and I've stopped paying attention. They've oversaturated the market with them, and the overall quality of the games in the bundles seems to have gone down as well.

Heh, it was the Humble Indie Bundles that I had in mind when posting that. I also have basically stopped paying attention to them because of the frequency.

@LordXavierBritish said:

Anyone who is down on this should probably be banned from the site.

I'm just saying, they probably aren't going to contribute anything that meaningful.