Discussing sex and gender in the industry: Why so toxic?

Because Britney Spears.

It really makes me wonder why people dislike Patrick so much. Do articles like his challenge their views on video games? Are they afraid of some change? Jeff and Ryan, two guys that people in these hate groups actually respect a lot, would be the first to tell people that hate Patrick and the kind of stuff he writes to fuck off. Jeff is like the most video-games-gamesman ever and he supports what Patrick does. I remember Jeff talking about it on a Jar Time or something.

@random45 said:

This is basically how I reacted to FemFreq's analysis of Spelunky, a game in which you can not only play as a male or female character (from the start!), but you can make the damsels male, female, or even non-human if neither gender choice is your thing. Aside from the abstract concept of the "damsel" and its history as being traditionally a female role, I think there is almost literally nothing that you can find in Spelunky to complain about. It seemed like a pretty poorly-chosen example.

@flacracker said:

Every time someone writes in to Jeff's Tumblr with some shit like "hey, when are you going to cut Patrick loose, amirite? You must want to get that fucking SJW bleeding-heart shit off of your site and get back to talking about games, right?" and Jeff responds with "I think Patrick's doing great stuff, and I largely agree with him, so fuck off, asswipe," my day is made.

It needs to be said again and again because it's still an issue. Just because we've identified a problem doesn't mean we just stop talking about it. I'm bringing it up here, now, because it's GDC, and because like last year, it's a topic on most game devs' radar.

A lot of people get understandably defensive in a lot of these conversations because the way the debate is presented is as if the video game community is somehow uniquely sexist, or uniquely unequal in some way in general. These problems run so much deeper than any of us are qualified to really diagnose, and it's incredibly shallow to just look at video games and pile on the shaming and blaming.

I think my biggest issue with this topic is that there's usually very little actual dialogue. You have the trolls who just try to disrupt the conversation for the lulz (we have our own very example right here in this thread!) or you have notable figures on YouTube or in the press who do little more than preach their sermons, and everyone not in those two groups kind of gets ignored. I can hardly blame the folks in the press for refusing to genuinely engage with their audience over the topic, though; they've completely won the influence war. The games press and most notables in a lot of social media is an echo chamber of feel-good progressivism. Why would they try to concede ground when they control the entire conversation? It's like a politician who's way ahead in the polls; they don't want to have a debate that could risk changing the narrative.

And like with politics, what happens when a group feels increasingly ignored? They grow increasingly bitter and desperate, and they get louder and louder, doing more and more to be noticed. There's your "toxicity." There's your "heat." What should be a mature conversation ends up looking like televangelists vs. 4chan.

Hell, none of this is meant to suggest that I don't totally sympathize and agree with where they're coming from. I'm as left-wing as all get-out, that's not the point. "Group C," as Brodehouse has termed them now apparently, has plenty of good points and their intentions are good. But I can't help but feel like there are upside down priorities at times.

I'm gay, and I'm poor. Guess which one gives me much more trouble on a day to day basis? (Spoiler: The latter.) I see social ills on a more complicated level than most in the press seem to. San Francisco is one of the most economically unequal cities in the nation. The games press would probably have a more direct and positive impact on their community by helping out a homeless dude and campaigning for affordable housing than they would by complaining about the alleged misogyny in GTA V.

@marokai: Most human discourse is a circlejerk. We gravitate toward the people who are like minded. I don't think it's unique to the Internet; just amplified due to the sheer scale of human interaction present here.

Quotin' dat!

I don't get it either. Patrick comes off as being a really genuine guy. I've been following the site since before he joined the crew, and I never really got the Patrick hate he, to this day, produces some of the best gaming-related content online. It makes no sense. People want good content but they only want the content they feel comfortable talking about.

I'm no fan of FemFreq. I disagree with Anita's examples, and the way she presents them, but I don't disagree with here overall message. I do wish her content were a bit better, it wouldn't make such a compelling target if it was better presented.

wait...which ones are the sexists?

It's called "playing the odds", Group D for LYFE!

Yo, but fuck Group A forreals.

No, the forum search functionality is awful.

@flacracker: People have repeatedly stated their individual problems with clear language, and yet you "don't know why" and worse, you form your own opinion of why and overwrite their actual stated issues with your own suspicions about them.

I don't mean to come across as hostile, but what you said was entirely disingenuous. I'm bringing it up because "they say they want X but what they really want is Straw Y!" is exactly the kind of dismissive garbage used to bully people into submission.

So that brings me to my main question, and I guess what was also my main reason for creating this thread: What can we do to change things as members of the video game community? Even if we have no real soapbox, what can we do?

lol.

You guys take video games too seriously.

@mb: I can't use the search function. It 404's every time.

@marokai said:

I definitely, definitely think this needs to be pointed out more often.

The video game industry reflects our society as it is now, and likely will not change unless the conversation is expanded past the boundaries of games and even entertainment as a whole. What happens in video games is a symptom of a larger problem that doesn't just effect women, but other groups that tend to take a backseat as well - i.e. people of color, LGBTQA, the poor, etcetera. However, I think it is beneficial to discuss the issues that are specific to video games, if only to raise awareness for what exists on the outside as well. Ignoring them does nothing more than create complacency. Plus, as someone who is passionate about gaming, that is what is interesting to me personally; that is what we are united by in the community, and can influence change in.

But I do want to mention that that is highly dependent on where you are from. Being gay is outrageously dangerous where I live. Corrective rape happens to men, women, and many non-binary folks, and I know from experience that being gay can/usually will cost you your family, even your job, that sort of thing. Not to erase your experiences by any means - just wanted to state that one of the larger problems is how fluid beliefs are in different cultures, so the severity of each varies, which is why it is important to call everything to attention.

There's always gonna be assholes, nerd assholes happen to be the worst kind of assholes. They are the kind of assholes which are nearly always judgemental, stuck in their ways and that never understand real-life consequences of their actions.

The problem is that there are no consequences. I have yet to see someone called out for being sexist or racist in industry settings, and I've been guilty of letting it go myself. The only way I can think to combat it, (besides becoming a respected vg journo) is to call it out when you see it.

I think your average person doesn't even know these problems exist or really care, despite gender. I watched some of Anita's videos with my girlfriend and she just kinda rolled her eyes the whole time. For my gender studies class I did a survey at my university and asked about 70 females if they think they have ever been discriminated against for being a woman. Most of them were just really confused and was wondering where the hell I was getting my information from.

Of course these problems do exist. Just with my personal experiences, you average person doesn't seem to be aware of them. Or at least care.

On the flip side I see myself as someone that really wants to see the industry evolve. But a lot of articles written about this topic come off as poorly researched and gross attempts to appear "hip". A lot of the conversation isn't really honest. Even Anita comes off as exploitative. Patrick's handful of conversations he has engaged in is some of the better examples getting into this stuff.

@musai: Keep our heads, keep our cool, keep pressing on. If you believe change should come, align yourself towards that. I think this thread was a good idea for example, I appreciate your tone. Keep it focused on the issues, not the people. (EDIT: Tone isn't everything, but the issue of tone-policing is a difficult one to navigate when dealing with incessantly toxic environments.)

That was actually a big realization for me. It's easier to talk to someone about sexism (or other social issues) if you identify the thought or idea as sexist rather than the person as sexist. It often circumvents the defensiveness.

That's coming from a place of relative privilege on my part, though. It shouldn't be applied universally.

Also, support cool games that are supportive of cool people. Vote with your wallet. If you can, support someone you like on Patreon. Do all the little things, they really do add up.

Be the change you want to see on the forums. :D

The definitions of sexism and misogyny are more broadly used in academia than in the dictionary. What often happens is someone states something in a video game is misogynistic or sexist, and someone who likes that video game can't fathom the idea that something they like is flawed, so they google the terms and proudly flaunt them and perpetuate them as the reason why all feminist ideas regarding video games are wrong.

Sexism and feminism are volatile topics in any kind of media. As a devourer of all things "news" it's a pretty common sight. And I know to stay away from the yelling contest that follows.

Because it's always one sided, always focuses on women, you say gender but you mean women, because men and misandry are never ever brought up as problems, then those people feel like these threads go in circles because once again it's about women and you have the same conversation over and over and over and over, people are tired of this entire discussion as it seems to pop up so frequently even if nothing is going on, I think GB should just have a feminism forum for people who want to discuss these topics. *shrugs*

@nmc2008: Yeah, because men are really underrepresented in video games and the industry.

This is one of those "ancient" questions where a couple of reoccurring thoughts pop up:

- Humans are "social animals" where a defining characteristic is that they order things in groups of "us" and "them". Gender is one of the easiest and straightforward ways to make arbitrary divisions among any random group of humans in any random situation. Discussions that promote or demote one side over the other feel personal because of this.

- Humans are intelligent beings with high sense of self where again gender is one of the easiest and straightforwards ways to define "the self". Almost any discussion of this topic is a partial reflection of "the self".

- Humans seem to be bound by physical limitations but not mental ones where in general humans feel they can think beyond their perceptions and physical limitations. A person can see how a heavy stone can be lifted even if they lack the physicality of doing it themselves. Once again, gender is an easy and straightforward definition of the physiological so you get into states where people can imagine impossible but readily common things. An easy example of this is childbirth which is extremely common yet is always and completely alien to half of the population. Discussion around these ideas, in this topic gender specifically, are easy to imagine but impossible to verify.

Beyond this I have a feeling that in general modern culture has done a poor job teaching or training people in the basics or even "how to have an argument". Forget the gender thing for a moment: How many disagreements on just this site feel like screaming on trivial things? People forget it actually fine to disagree on complex issues, especially ones that lack a clear logical decision let alone a correct one. Add to that the nature of the Internet promotes conflict instead of acknowledgment and it probably isn't going to get better in our lifetime.

I've been watching a lot of horror and thriller movies with my girlfriend lately, and we simultaneously realized that nearly all of them have had some form of sexual abuse levied as a threat or a punishment against a woman at some point in the film. She asked if we could ease off on the movies with this element in them, and you know what? I tried to guess what would and would not have it, and I just can't. It's positively ubiquitous. The "Scream Queen". The dumb slut. The kidnapped wife. Long-lasting horror and thriller tropes that are only recently being turned on their head. She loves these movies, and accepts that this is a very easy and powerful element to include as motivation for a heroine or punishment for any female character, but the fact of the matter is that it's a subject that makes women uncomfortable and they don't always want to watch it. I empathize, because I would feel the same if it was expected that a guy would have his balls graphically cut off in every horror movie. Conveniently for me and other men, sexual violence against weakened men almost never happens in these movies.

The same is true for video games. There is a norm of female weakness in video games, and, just like the horror and thriller genres in film, it's difficult to be a fan of video games and get a healthy mix of the best in the genre without having to expose one's self to women being subjugated in some way. The point of contention for people who don't want to experience it is that it's being argued to them that this element is integral to the experience and shouldn't be changed, which causes the argument in the first place. The narrative elements and character traits are all tropes so well-worn at this point, that gamers can't imagine a world without them, just as developers are having a hard time figuring out new ways to piece together a game without them. The staying power of beloved franchises is also making this difficult, since, of course, so many video games have been about men being tough.

The argument, then, becomes "don't consume this media if it bothers you". Unfortunately, that isn't always a fair argument, especially when the simple fact is that social norms have changed. Shadow Warrior is a perfect example of both an old franchise that is not suited for today, and a revamp that maintains the appeal of the genre while being made more palatable for today's audience. Not only is the main character not an absurdly racist stereotype, but the story was actually made compelling with a character you can sympathize for. These changes were purely the result of needing to change the franchise to be more sensitive to a group of people who would be offended by the original.

Revamping genre tropes to suit modern audiences (read: audiences that include women who want to play games that don't make them feel bad for themselves) is possible, but men like the status quo and are still the largest consumers of video games, so they'd rather keep things the way they are than see new, different media. This is a stifling attitude that, in my opinion, won't allow for much new territory to be explored in the industry lest we step away from narrative tropes and move in new directions, which inherently includes women.

Alright, men's rights activist yelling misandry, and that's me won awful people bingo.

"Life is so hard for white, middle class white dudes. We're so oppressed." No. Misogyny and sexism are nationwide (if not worldwide) issues. Where are all the societies that discriminate men, that have women with a higher average annual wage than men, where businesses are dominated by female executives?

Until there is actual gender equality, "misandry" is not an issue that deserves to be treated as anything other than a privileged group who does not wish to lose its privilege. It is a false equivalence with no basis in reality.

I went on the 4chan GB thread for the GDC livestream and people legitimately thought that Jeff secretly hated Patrick but kept him on because of reasons.

I feel the problem discussing sex and gender in the industry, like any other subject, derives from sensibility and incomprehension. Some people are offended by other people's views, and argue back, and then comes a counter-argument, and so the heated discussion starts. And a lot of times for naught, because people aren't really hearing the person they are discussing with, just shouting their point of view. Not to say every view is good, but people should try to understand the view of the person they are discussing with, or they are like a deaf arguing. And so discussing personal statements and heresay tends to get out of hand quickly.

There is also that abnoxious theme of White Knighting, where men, when see something they find offensive to women, start championing for them. No matter if there is any reason to the claim, White Knighting is all about desire to please.

So is that all it's about? Representation? So all these threads are about are having more women in games? Oh, alright then scratch my previous post off the record then, I thought it was about something else.

I see. I didn't know that only white men existed, my mistake. Also, i'm not an activist of any kind, I am a person on the sidelines watching this gender war from afar. I do find it ironic that some feminists say they are for gender equality but when men are brought up we get posts like yours, men aren't important because blah blah reasons, we need to focus on women to achieve gender equality. I didn't know that man's only problem was wondering how many women they will oppress tomorrow. *shrugs*

@nmc2008: so it's a racial issue?

Only if people make it one.

Feminism - all women, all races

Men's Rights - Only white dudes

Race Rights - Men but only non whites

Is that how it goes?

I thought it was

Feminism - All women

Men's Rights - All Men

Race Rights or whatever - Everyone

*shrugs*

The main reason gender discussion centers on women is because the problems men face for being men are ridiculously minor compared to the problems women face for being women. This is something that most people learn eventually. I think Jeff alluded to something like this in a Jar Time back in December.

@nmc2008: then make it the way you want and rebut his argument as if white people weren't specified. You called out the flaw, but his argument still stands.

@kcin: That's why I'm so glad to see so many women represented at GDC, reporters and creators both. It's a sign that things are moving forward in a positive direction, despite the vocal complaints that come through every time this topic is talked about. This is probably going a bit off topic, but I've come to realize how pointless it is to hate. Period. If you really feel like this is a pointless topic, if you want to bash people for having different opinion from you, or even if you want to dismiss it, just stop and think for a second. The world you're forging now with your indifference, or hatred, or whatever, that's the world your kids are going to have to live in. Even if you aren't having kids, you'll still change the future through your actions today. Don't take that for granted, and don't take that lightly.

Now I am an outsider on gender professionalism but I want to know if this a 100% proven fact or something else? I am asking sincerely.

You can't 100% prove something like this. So no. You can't 100% prove anything in the realm of gender discussion. It's something that's generally accepted in Sociology and academics.

Because its pretty much all anyone in the industry fucking talks about anymore. Every single game that comes out has to be put under this microscope and scrutinized for not being what feminists and tumblr wants them to be. Thats not to say that I don't feel there are problems regarding women and gay representation in gaming, but saying GTA V is sexist for not having a female protagonist, or any story where a man rescues a women, is just a little bit ridiculous.

Also because users like nubmonk come in and make everyone on one side of thw arguement look bad.

This is the part where I would ask you why, but I am not going to do that, what I will do is thank you all for your replies and take my leave, I have a South Park game to play, have fun ya'll.

GTA V has problems with it's representation of women beyond not having a female protagonist. Having 3 protagonists and them all being dudes is one thing, but making most or all of your female characters into misogynistic stereotypes is another.

@nmc2008: The studies and data to answer that question can be easily obtained with a handful of Google searches.

@russman588: every character in GTA V is a stereotype. None of the male characters have any real positives either, other than being occasionally funny. Everyone's a piece of shit, and I (personally) feel like those "black humor" types of stories are good for an industry in which very dark and depressing themes twnd to be the most prevalent.

And how is all of them being dudes "one thing"? Are story writers seriously not allowed to write the stories that they want to write?

I think that the market should determine the acceptability of creative decisions and discussions of social justice should be confined to topics that actually affect living human beings: e.g. workplace discrimination or harassment.

Any attempt to restrict the creative content of a work above and beyond what the actual interests of the consumer dictate is effectively censorship.

Im all for equal pay and equal job opportunities, but I really hate when people ask why white dudes have all the executive positions. Executives are such a small part of this society, that it's ridiculous to use them as a pillar for discussing race relations. Most white men work at shitty jobs and are treated like shit by fellow humanbeings on a day to day basis, just like everyone else (every race, gender, whatever). That's my perspective from where I've grown up and what my upbringing is.

I look out into the world, and I see everyone being treated equally shitty by everyone. It's a never ending circle jerk of negativity. Im a white male, and I feel completely alienated from the rest of society, because we are all incapable of being decent to each other. When it comes to treating other people with respect, it isn't really a race or gender thing, it's a human thing (maybe even just a nationalistic thing. Not sure how the rest of the world operates on this level, as I've only ever lived in America)

Things like equal pay/job opportunities? That's something completely different, and that falls on the governments shoulders. And why haven't they improved these things? Because the bulk of society just doesn't care. They live everyday in their little self centered worlds, not to be bothered by things like that. They are too busy watching honey boo boo and surfing the web 24/7 to be bothered with things like NSA spying, us-world relations (like what's going on in the ukraine). We all need to face it, America is fucked and arguing like this isn't solving jack shit. It is beyond repair.

@alecofthewest: It should be. Censorship is antithetic to Western principles.

I understand what you're getting at, but the problem is that there are no consequences for simply being a straight white middle class dude. Anyone that legitimately hates straight white middle class dudes can't put them down in any meaningful way. Meanwhile, society has tons of horrible words and plenty of groups that will put down anyone who is gay, of a different race, poor, or of a different gender. Any words aimed at straight white middle class dudes are easily laughed off because they hold no consequence. If someone calls you a cracker, so what? Someone applied the word slut to a dude? Well, that just means he's a smooth-talkin' manly man. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? If you're a straight white middle class dude, you are never going to have problems simply because of the way you were born.

@narujoe93: I'm sorry you feel that discussing things won't change anything, but I think that's a cop-out. Also: I'm not American. This problem isn't a uniquely American problem; it's a legacy we will all pass down if we don't keep it in the forefront until something changes.