I just did the math for game prices and...
" @h0lgr: Yes, just like you should earn any value you wish to acquire. I know, it's a crazy thing for anyone born in Europe or Canada to understand. But all goods require effort, and if you don't produce the effort yourself, then you should give the producer commensurate value for that effort. And like I said, you may not be afraid of your government, but it doesn't change the fact that they gave you the right to nomadism in lieu of the right to own the product of your own mind. "So if a state construction worker accidently drops a hammer from a 10 story building on top of me, and I'm bleeding to death, I should have proven myself worthy of treatment via the monetary system? Are you fucking insane?
Sorry, losing track here. Anyway, game prices.
damn i know how you fell i just bought inFAMOUS for 88 $ here in Iceland and i feel bad for spending that much money on one game i will play for a week... i don't like this at all : (
" @Suicrat said:Well, if the first time you consider your healthcare needs is the moment before you become injured, then your failure to plan long-term is more of a problem than the potential for injury." @h0lgr: Yes, just like you should earn any value you wish to acquire. I know, it's a crazy thing for anyone born in Europe or Canada to understand. But all goods require effort, and if you don't produce the effort yourself, then you should give the producer commensurate value for that effort. And like I said, you may not be afraid of your government, but it doesn't change the fact that they gave you the right to nomadism in lieu of the right to own the product of your own mind. "So if a state construction worker accidently drops a hammer from a 10 story building on top of me, and I'm bleeding to death, I should have proven myself worthy of treatment via the monetary system? Are you fucking insane?
Sorry, losing track here. Anyway, game prices. "
And also, if you can't afford a value that you need, doesn't mean there are no legitimate means of acquiring it in a free market. Don't fail to consider to the role of moneylending and/or charity.
Also, the reason your games are so expensive is because the cost of your 'free' services are absorbed into other segments of the economy, so yes, they're related.
" I'd have to pay 97.80$ for a new copy of Infamous"
- Once you subtract 25% Value Added Tax (VAT or MOMS) you get 97.80$ / 1.25 = 78.24$ .The rest can be explained with the current dollar weakness. While conversion rates can vary, prices for games usually hover around the same round marketable amount in your local currency.
- There are also importers, like www.CDWOW.se, which ship games to Europe, games that are discounted for the Asian market.
- Which of the two versions of the game have you purchased? One is region free(expensive), the other one is PAL.
I know, it sucks, but check out playasia.com. They have games from outside regions, cheaper prices usually. PS3 can handle any region of games, so definatley check it out." damn i know how you fell i just bought inFAMOUS for 88 $ here in Iceland and i feel bad for spending that much money on one game i will play for a week... i don't like this at all : ( "
Shipping to Iceland might be expensive, though, I don't know about that.
@Suicrat said:
" @h0lgr said:
" @Suicrat said:Well, if the first time you consider your healthcare needs is the moment before you become injured, then your failure to plan long-term is more of a problem than the potential for injury. And also, if you can't afford a value that you need, doesn't mean there are no legitimate means of acquiring it in a free market. Don't fail to consider to the role of moneylending and/or charity. Also, the reason your games are so expensive is because the cost of your 'free' services are absorbed into other segments of the economy, so yes, they're related. "" @h0lgr: Yes, just like you should earn any value you wish to acquire. I know, it's a crazy thing for anyone born in Europe or Canada to understand. But all goods require effort, and if you don't produce the effort yourself, then you should give the producer commensurate value for that effort. And like I said, you may not be afraid of your government, but it doesn't change the fact that they gave you the right to nomadism in lieu of the right to own the product of your own mind. "So if a state construction worker accidently drops a hammer from a 10 story building on top of me, and I'm bleeding to death, I should have proven myself worthy of treatment via the monetary system? Are you fucking insane?
Sorry, losing track here. Anyway, game prices. "
Oh yeah. Charity. That's reliable, right? And to lend money to survive? Do I really have to throw money into the state so they can keep me alive? Wouldn't want to live in that "free" version of a country. Fuck, thats almost oppression. I feel safe here in Sweden, knowing that whatever happens to me, as long as I pay my 30+% tax every working month, I will survive the majority of dangerous situations I would end up in. My kids will forever have free school for their entire life up until they are adults, and even if I lose my job, I would get a check dedicated to helping my kids make it. Money enough for food and clothes.
That is the definition of a morally corrupt culture. Enslave the producers, in the name of the material 'rights' of the consumer.
Not that anywhere else in the world is any better at the moment...
Ordinary human decency seems to be lacking with you.Everyone who fails should be left to rot.Its irreleven why they fail(born into poverty,dont plan as you said).
Your position is to never help anyone in need? Sorry I as a human being a product of a Catholic upbringing(Im an athist but I carry a few of the values with me) love everyone, even you.
There is no way even if you had blown your life savings in Vegas instead of paying for surgery that I would not help you.
Individualism needs to be tempered with socialism.The talented should be successful however, those who fail cannot be left alone.Business dosent help, Republicans have not helped,your system helps only the successful not the failures.
" @h0lgr: If you feel as though you are being oppressed by being asked to give commensurate value in return for something you value, then it's no surprise that all of Europe is in a state of indentured slavery. That is the definition of a morally corrupt culture. Enslave the producers, in the name of the material 'rights' of the consumer. Not that anywhere else in the world is any better at the moment... "Except that the producers don't get ripped off either, since we pay them to help us. And by the way, "them" are actually "us"!
How can 40%+ of every working man and woman's paycheck, directly poured into the "producer's" pocket result in enslavement?
I don't understand how a principled opposition to coercion as a means of obtaining value is the same as hating the poor or hating those who fail to plan for their own future.
And claiming to voluntarily help me in my time of need does not have any logical connection to a defense of forced wealth transfers.
I am a charitable person. I help my friends when they need help, and I try my best to help people I don't know as well. However, my admiration of the virtue of charity does not grant me the right to impose my notion of charity on anyone else. The fact that the largest political groupings within various societies are given that privelege does not make forced wealth transfers noble by the alleged "virtue" of strength in numbers.
Also, don't conflate the ideas I am promoting with Republicanism or with the system under which any of us currently live. Because what we already have (and have had for decades) IS a mix between capitalism and socialism, and it has obviously failed.
My system would not "help" anyone in the sense of the word you are implying. Because it would not "help" one particular group (successful or otherwise) to another by taking from another. It would demand that all people deal with one another by exchanging value in return for value, instead of using the threat of force to acquire a value with nothing in return.
However, it would leave people as allegedly virtuous as you and the thread creator to spread the values to which they adhere, voluntarily, amongst the people they choose to help.
Back to the matter at hand, there is no such thing as a free lunch. (This is not my "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps speech", bare with me.)
In a mixed economy, where some values are distributed through voluntary exchange and others are distributed by means of coercion, those who exchange value in exchange for value are forced to fork over extra value in return for their values because a government can't produce a complex good (such as healthcare) out of thin air, it needs to compensate people in order to induce them into providing it "for free". This is what is known as price inflation, and adversely affects the poorest in society disproportionately (in relation to the wealthy) because the poor statistically spend a greater portion of their wealth on short-term sustenance, what little wealth they can put aside for savings is siphoned into the inflated price of goods; whereas the wealthy, who statistically save a greater portion of their wealth only have to siphon a small percentage (even if it's the same or a higher absolute total) have their future plans less-adversely affected by price inflation.
So the notion that forced wealth transfers are better for the poor, economically speaking is not borne out either by logic, or the facts of reality (as we can see the grap between rich and poor people is widening, even as this economic crisis hampers industrial development).
" This is where using your PC for games and Steam comes in handy. "Tread winner.
In other words, rhetoric and lobbying become sources of wealth, even though they're not sources of any tangible value.
If you doubt any of the things I'm saying, look at the state of the global economy, and the role of lobbying in every national and supranational government body.
I do doubt them as my country Ireland which runs a system of free healthcare,education was voted the best place to live in the world.Up until the economic crisis things were great.
In your system what happens to those who have drug problems, no skills etc people unable to produce anything of value?
So you don't dislike helping, you just dislike giving? By the way, it's not just giving, it's basically trading.
Your idea of "forced wealth transfers" does not apply in Sweden, because we all feel like we get something good in return, no matter how much or little we want to give tax money.
It's not about being virtous, it's not about heroism or anything. It's simply a safety switch turned on.
Wait until you get a hole in your freaking stomach. See how you feel then. Oh, did your wallet cover that for ya? Let's remove all your money and see you bleed to death on your American pavement.
Until then, I'm gonna survive, and get educated well enough to pull myself through and up from the currently economically challenged world.
He dislikes being forced to give.I am happy to give I pay my taxes,someone gets an operation done, when I need help other people's taxes pay for that.I pay for peoples education they attract industry,they get paid they give to the money to other people which pay it back in taxes giving new people free education. The town develops to serve theses higher wages Everybody works, very few people commit benefit fraud it works it genuinely works...until the present crisis.The only cost is that if you earn a high wage you have to pay back at a high rate.Those who are most able to contribute to the joint project contribute most, as they have benefited most." @Suicrat said:
So you don't dislike helping, you just dislike giving? By the way, it's not just giving, it's basically trading.
Your idea of "forced wealth transfers" does not apply in Sweden, because we all feel like we get something good in return, no matter how much or little we want to give tax money.
It's not about being virtous, it's not about heroism or anything. It's simply a safety switch turned on. Wait until you get a hole in your freaking stomach. See how you feel then. Oh, did your wallet cover that for ya? Let's remove all your money and see you bleed to death on your American pavement. Until then, I'm gonna survive, and get educated well enough to pull myself through and up from the currently economically challenged world. "
And as I said before, the consent of a vast amount of people for forced charity is indicative of one of two things:
1) That people genuinely value the act of charity, and therefore if left free, and to own the entirety of the product of their effort, they would fill any potential gap.
OR
2) That people answer polls that way so as to seem charitable, but actually aren't, and prefer the system of stealing other people's wealth to fund their own projects (this applies also to industries that are subsidized by the government, that have no direct "public benefit").
Which applies to you?
" @Suicrat said:FIRST of all, I live in Canada, not the United States.
So you don't dislike helping, you just dislike giving? By the way, it's not just giving, it's basically trading.
Your idea of "forced wealth transfers" does not apply in Sweden, because we all feel like we get something good in return, no matter how much or little we want to give tax money.
It's not about being virtous, it's not about heroism or anything. It's simply a safety switch turned on. Wait until you get a hole in your freaking stomach. See how you feel then. Oh, did your wallet cover that for ya? Let's remove all your money and see you bleed to death on your American pavement. Until then, I'm gonna survive, and get educated well enough to pull myself through and up from the currently economically challenged world. "
Second of all, Sweden is a place with a population of 9.26 million people. If they're all in harmonious agreement that helping the poor is as useful and important as you claim it is, then there would be an enormous wealth potential.
Third of all, if it's a value that people agree to then it shouldn't need to be excised from their paycheques before they see it, since they value it, they will spend on it anyways.
Fourth of all, if what you said was true, then Sweden would not be trending to the right, as it is now.
"Well it's 60 dollars for a new console game, but yes, I've heard horror-stories of the game-price-inflation going on overseas "
Who is overseas? America or Europe duh!
" @h0lgr said:You understand what I mean by "all of us". I mean the vast majority. The vast majority doesn't want to give up their rights to school/healthcare etc." @Suicrat said:FIRST of all, I live in Canada, not the United States. Second of all, Sweden is a place with a population of 9.26 million people. If they're all in harmonious agreement that helping the poor is as useful and important as you claim it is, then there would be an enormous wealth potential. Third of all, if it's a value that people agree to then it shouldn't need to be excised from their paycheques before they see it, since they value it, they will spend on it anyways. Fourth of all, if what you said was true, then Sweden would not be trending to the right, as it is now. "
So you don't dislike helping, you just dislike giving? By the way, it's not just giving, it's basically trading.
Your idea of "forced wealth transfers" does not apply in Sweden, because we all feel like we get something good in return, no matter how much or little we want to give tax money.
It's not about being virtous, it's not about heroism or anything. It's simply a safety switch turned on. Wait until you get a hole in your freaking stomach. See how you feel then. Oh, did your wallet cover that for ya? Let's remove all your money and see you bleed to death on your American pavement. Until then, I'm gonna survive, and get educated well enough to pull myself through and up from the currently economically challenged world. "
Rightwing politics in Sweden isn't anywhere near the rightwing politics of US, or even Canada. And you're wrong, Sweden's already been into rightwing politics for a few years now.
Most people have become outraged by the stuff the right wings have pulled here. Entire companies have gone bankrupt because of employee cuts the leftwingers would never have approved. You should hear radio in the morning. Trust me, it's gonna become a left wing government next time.
" I've always marvelled at how well educated(socially) Swedish and scandinavian people must be to constantly vote for high taxes so that society can be more equal. Props to you guys. "...
So you're saying that redistribution of wealth is intelligent? Yeah, because we all know how well that has worked... Totally ruins any incentive to work hard.
And as I said, it was trending to the right before the crisis, because people were seeing the adverse effects of it because the social democratic governments were hampering economic growth.
Also, if a company lays off employees capable of producing value and then going bankrupt, then no government would have saved them from their own irrationalities in the long term anyway, and any attempt by a government to force the company to keep their employees would represent a forced malinvestment of labour since (if that labour is capable of producing tangible value) other companies would be free to hire them and make better use of the labourers' effort.
And if Sweden swings to the left, it will benefit economically only by virtue of the forced wealth transfers from other parts of Europe, or from the continued unearned market-leader position of the western world, due to barriers to entry by international producers.
Face it, coercion as a means of redistributing wealth harms the poor more than it harms the wealthy.
The proof of it is all around you.
" @h0lgr: So then the people who agree are stealing from those who don't. And I can't possibly condone the majority robbing the minority. And as I said, it was trending to the right before the crisis, because people were seeing the adverse effects of it because the social democratic governments were hampering economic growth. Also, if a company lays off employees capable of producing value and then going bankrupt, then no government would have saved them from their own irrationalities in the long term anyway, and any attempt by a government to force the company to keep their employees would represent a forced malinvestment of labour since (if that labour is capable of producing tangible value) other companies would be free to hire them and make better use of the labourers' effort. And if Sweden swings to the left, it will benefit economically only by virtue of the forced wealth transfers from other parts of Europe, or from the continued unearned market-leader position of the western world, due to barriers to entry by international producers. Face it, coercion as a means of redistributing wealth harms the poor more than it harms the wealthy. The proof of it is all around you. "I meant to say state workers, not company workers.
@h0lgr said: I meant to say state workers, not company workers.
So you mean workers who might not have received the values they received, if not for intervention into the Swedish economy.
Moreover, if the work they were doing was more than government sponsored make-work, then they would have been employed in the private sector anyways, and the government would not have been given the power to remove workers from their opportunity to work in the first place.
Government power is the only thing that justifies government power. And guess what that justification entrenches? Government power.
" also, consider importing games. I believe the ps3 is region free (but check elsewhere first). That means, if you pay $60 for a new ps3 game and $10 to get it shipped to you, you're still saving about 20 bucks. "Too bad there are shipping checks sending you an extra bill. :\
About a week ago Blazblue arrived and about a week later i got the extra bill costing me an extra 250 Danish Crowns converted that's $47.
All in all Blazblue cost me $134 total.
Look. I didn't want to turn this into a debate about the impact of coercion on goods and values in the wider economy, I was just trying to illustrate the corollary effect of hiding the effect of "free" government-provided services with increased prices in video games.
It's not my fault the same is also true for bread, milk, eggs, and motor oil.
" @Whisperkill: And how many hundreds of billions of dollars did GW Bush give to failing banks and insurance companies? And how much did he spend on subsidies? That's right, hundreds of billions of dollars. I admire your desire to end forced wealth transfers, but claiming Republicans have any historical background to draw upon in that regard is simply inaccurate. "
*facepalm* its kind of the difference between left and right, just because Bush didnt do something, doesnt make it not ... you know what, nevermind, im not going to argue with some one on the internet, I told myself I wouldnt do that, because its the most idiotic place to argue.
" @Suicrat said:So arguing on the street is better? The difference between the left and right in America is purely cosmetic. Mainstream, power-holding Republicans want to excise as much wealth from the productive as the power-holding Democrats do, they just want to use it for slightly different endeavours." @Whisperkill: And how many hundreds of billions of dollars did GW Bush give to failing banks and insurance companies? And how much did he spend on subsidies? That's right, hundreds of billions of dollars. I admire your desire to end forced wealth transfers, but claiming Republicans have any historical background to draw upon in that regard is simply inaccurate. "*facepalm* its kind of the difference between left and right, just because Bush didnt do something, doesnt make it not ... you know what, nevermind, im not going to argue with some one on the internet, I told myself I wouldnt do that, because its the most idiotic place to argue. "
@h0lgr said:
" @Farmer said:" @KillaMaStA said:No games in Europe are really translated from English. Except I guess for Germany. They seem to translate everything.. "" @Farmer said:Out of interest, are games that make it to Estonia translated into Estonian? I can't imagine that to be the case. "" @RsistncE said:In Estonia at least that really isnt the case. US actually has higher wages than us I think. The prices for video games just suck here because they are still treated as crazy alien technology. Plus theres practically no demand for them here either, I think that Estonia honestly got like 50 copies of Infamous overall and we JUST got them.Everything else has normal prices, There are less than 10 stores in Estonia that even have ps3 games I think. "" @bekern said:That is, in fact, very basic economics. "" I don't think you can just do conversions like that because the economy where you live is not the same as in the US. You guys may get higher wages there(when converted to dollars) then we do over here for instance, so it'd even out the difference. "That shouldn't matter. So if you make more money things should cost you more? That's faulty logic. "
No, they are not translated into Estonian. And the cases and manuals are always in Danish, Norweigan, Finnish and Swedish so Id say that they get localised there and we just buy them from there.
So I have about 50 manuals and game cases in 4 languages that I dont know at all which sucks.
But alot of game companies translate their games into all the major languages of Europe not only German.
@KillaMaStA said:No, they are not translated into Estonian. And the cases and manuals are always in Danish, Norweigan, Finnish and Swedish so Id say that they get localised there and we just buy them from there. So I have about 50 manuals and game cases in 4 languages that I dont know at all which sucks. But alot of game companies translate their games into all the major languages of Europe not only German. "
Yup, he's correct. We get our own manuals, which, really is bullshit I mean if countries like Estonia gets their manuals in our languages, why not just keep it in English? I'm sure all of us Swedes and Scandinavians can survive the manuals being in English if EVERY PART OF THE GAME already is...
" LOL! That's still cheap compare to what I pay. It's close to 10000円 for big title PS3 games. That's well over $100 US. Let's not even get started on how much the dating games for PS2 cost... "Man... I feel bad for you. Although I don't see why I'd purchase dating games for the PS2... OH well, preference I guess :)
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