bullfighting banned in a region of Spain

Again with this philosophy 101 mentality. The impossibility of perfection doesn't mean one should not strive toward betterment. The fact that your teeth will never be perfectly clean doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to clean them twice a day, lest they rot. Yes, you're right that no law is perfect in its enforcement. However, it is also plain to see that 10 bulls being tortured to death rather than 100 in a year is a reduction in suffering ten fold, and if unnecessary suffering is a bad thing then the imposition of that law banning bullfighting is a good thing.

Forcing men to fight to the death it tradition too. Obviously it's time bull fighting comes to an end. 

" @GIVEMEREPLAY said:

Again with this philosophy 101 mentality. The impossibility of perfection doesn't mean one should not strive toward betterment. The fact that your teeth will never be perfectly clean doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to clean them twice a day, lest they rot. Yes, you're right that no law is perfect in its enforcement. However, it is also plain to see that 10 bulls being tortured to death rather than 100 in a year is a reduction in suffering ten fold, and if unnecessary suffering is a bad thing then the imposition of that law banning bullfighting is a good thing.

I hope you are a vegan, otherwise this doesn't hold.  Because yes, chickens that lay eggs suffer (usually a lot of stress so they produce more eggs, among other sufferings) and yes, eating eggs is unnecessary, and so is proving every vegan who doesn't eat eggs and is perfectly healthy.  Should vegan diet be imposed? Which is the difference? Is the nuisance of your bad manners necessary at all? For sure not for me, I don't need to teach you anything. I'll be waiting if you are interested in a serious debate about ethics; life has taught me that internet forums are not the place for that, though. "

if they're so desperate to stick pins in living creatures, just put two (or more) bull fighters in the arena instead of one and call it deathmatch or something!

there is a very large and demonstrable difference between the pain a chicken suffers in birth versus the pain a bull feels in being ritually taunted and stabbed to death over the course of an hour.

"  @Jeust said: 

" People and bans... >_>  I don't know why people love bans on everything they hate. True that it is a disgusting activity, at least for me, but forcing someone not to do it isn't a good thing. People should be educated, not forced.  "

Completely agree. 
 
I would be happy if it just didn't receive public money. That would be a very good step IMHO. 
 
Next step: bou embolat:   http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bou_embolat  
 
@Demonstride:  the bull is basically stabbed to death, and my guess is that probably that has to be painful. 
 
 

@Suicrat

 said: 

" @Jeust: This does seem like an attempt on the part of the Catalan legislature to differentiate the region they administrate from the rest of Spain. "

It is. 
 

@Jeust

 said: 

To me it is cruel because, while still a courageous activity, bullfights consist in toying with animals, that previously had their horns sawed, drugged and suffered other kinds of abuse. It's not a honest fight, it is a violent spectacle. Still people should see it for what it is, and not ban it because it is easier.  "

It isn't like that. They are spiked, with the main goal of waking their rage, but the horns are not sawed and they are quite dangerous. I don't think they are drugged either. Actually, the bulls used for bullfighting have been chosen for generations among the fiercest, as they provide a greater spectacle. 
 
About illegal bullfightings going on (which I read somewhere) that is quite unlikely, if you consider the size of these things:  
http://maps.google.es/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=es&geocode=&q=Plaza+de+Toros+de+Las+Ventas&sll=40.396764,-3.713379&sspn=8.681468,19.753418&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Plaza+de+Toros+de+Las+Ventas&ll=40.431849,-3.663093&spn=0.004238,0.009645&t=h&z=17 
 

" @GIVEMEREPLAY: can you quantify pain? fighting bulls live in freedom all their lives, until a day they suffer pain and stress until they are killed, except for those exceptionally good that will live as stud bulls. Hens on the contrary may never see the sun light, they are piled up, their beak is mutilated so that they won't hurt each other due to the conditions they have to suffer, and then some lights are turned on and off to trick them into believe it is day or night, just that the cycles are way shorter than 24 hours, so that they will produce eggs faster. This speed in the cycles, very limited space to move and  not being on ground but on bars (so that excrements go through) produce a very stressful life to death.
 
If I had to choose I'd prefer to be a fighting bull than a hen.  And that just because you prefer the pleasure of the taste of eggs, which is unnecessary and supposed to be higher than the pleasure of witnessing the art of bullfighting, which I personally don't like, but the ethical treatment of the question so far seems quite shallow to me.

@GIVEMEREPLAY

said:

there is a very large and demonstrable difference between the pain a chicken suffers in birth versus the pain a bull feels in being ritually taunted and stabbed to death over the course of an hour.

 In short, no, there is no large and demonstrable large difference in the suffering and the quality of the lives of those animals, and if so, it is in favor of fighting bulls. "

I would be fine with it if it was a straight fight, shirtless man with no knife using his bare hands. Right now even if the matador loses other matadors just storm in and stab the bull shitless.

the only real downside to this is that we won't get to see assholes getting their pants ripped off and flag waving lunatics being pummeled by the aforementioned bulls anymore.

" I would be fine with it if it was a straight fight, shirtless man with no knife using his bare hands. Right now even if the matador loses other matadors just storm in and stab the bull shitless. "

" the only real downside to this is that we won't get to see assholes getting their pants ripped off and flag waving lunatics being pummeled by the aforementioned bulls anymore. "

" @WalkerTR77 said:

" I would be fine with it if it was a straight fight, shirtless man with no knife using his bare hands. Right now even if the matador loses other matadors just storm in and stab the bull shitless. "

If you think it's that biased you can try it by yourself, I can guarantee that if you are good it is very well paid.
 
 @Toms115 said:

" the only real downside to this is that we won't get to see assholes getting their pants ripped off and flag waving lunatics being pummeled by the aforementioned bulls anymore. "

That's false, San Fermines will contine, and bou embolat, and there will be many other chances to see that. "

Tasty, tasty bull. Good thing I'm having tacos tonight.

And are you forgetting the amount of chickens breed in captivity, in spaces almost as large as themselves.   Abuse is everywhere, despite rules, regulations and bans. The only true law respected no matter the place is that the weak is always at the mercy of the strong. You can regulate, criminalize, still you can't avoid the existence of violence. "

can you quantify pain? fighting bulls live in freedom all their lives, until a day they suffer pain and stress until they are killed, except for those exceptionally good that will live as stud bulls. Hens on the contrary may never see the sun light, they are piled up, their beak is mutilated so that they won't hurt each other due to the conditions they have to suffer, and then some lights are turned on and off to trick them into believe it is day or night, just that the cycles are way shorter than 24 hours, so that they will produce eggs faster. This speed in the cycles, very limited space to move and  not being on ground but on bars (so that excrements go through) produce a very stressful life to death. 
 
If I had to choose I'd prefer to be a fighting bull than a hen.  And that just because you prefer the pleasure of the taste of eggs, which is unnecessary and supposed to be higher than the pleasure of witnessing the art of bullfighting, which I personally don't like, but the ethical treatment of the question so far seems quite shallow to me.     

@otherdouche

can you quantify pain? fighting bulls live in freedom all their lives, until a day they suffer pain and stress until they are killed, except for those exceptionally good that will live as stud bulls. Hens on the contrary may never see the sun light, they are piled up, their beak is mutilated so that they won't hurt each other due to the conditions they have to suffer, and then some lights are turned on and off to trick them into believe it is day or night, just that the cycles are way shorter than 24 hours, so that they will produce eggs faster. This speed in the cycles, very limited space to move and  not being on ground but on bars (so that excrements go through) produce a very stressful life to death. 
 
If I had to choose I'd prefer to be a fighting bull than a hen.  And that just because you prefer the pleasure of the taste of eggs, which is unnecessary and supposed to be higher than the pleasure of witnessing the art of bullfighting, which I personally don't like, but the ethical treatment of the question so far seems quite shallow to me.     

If you think the life of a cooped up hen is worse than that of a bull being ritually stabbed to death the answer is to treat chickens better, not attempt to justify one injustice with another.  "

I hope you are a vegan, otherwise this doesn't hold.

@GIVEMEREPLAY said: 

If you think the life of a cooped up hen is worse than that of a bull being ritually stabbed to death the answer is to treat chickens better, not attempt to justify one injustice with another.  "

 
Great, the debate is progressing thanks to your collaboration and interest in finding agreement and the truth, instead of just insulting people in a desperate attempt of alleviating the suffering for a pathological lack of self-esteem.
 

" @GIVEMEREPLAY said:

" @Jeust said:

" People and bans... >_>  I don't know why people love bans on everything they hate. True that it is a disgusting activity, at least for me, but forcing someone not to do it isn't a good thing. People should be educated, not forced.  "

Tell the bull that.  "

yep, still enforcing it, doesn't mean it will go away. Illegal bullfights will still take place, and will be more expensive than a legal one ever was.  "

Haven't you two already butchered enough philosophers without bringing Freudian psychoanalysis into this? If you can't respond to my argument just don't reply. I won't think any less of you for it.  "

" @Jeust said:

And are you forgetting the amount of chickens breed in captivity, in spaces almost as large as themselves.   Abuse is everywhere, despite rules, regulations and bans. The only true law respected no matter the place is that the weak is always at the mercy of the strong. You can regulate, criminalize, still you can't avoid the existence of violence. "

Once again, you mental midget, the fact that abuses occur is not a reason to stop attempting to prevent them. Perfect might be the enemy of good, but for you it seems perfection is the enemy of doing anything at all. Come back when you've read something beyond Rand and Nietzsche quotes.  
 
As to might making right, make sure to tell the police that if you ever get mugged.  "

" @Jeust said:

" @GIVEMEREPLAY said:

" @Jeust said:

" People and bans... >_>  I don't know why people love bans on everything they hate. True that it is a disgusting activity, at least for me, but forcing someone not to do it isn't a good thing. People should be educated, not forced.  "

Tell the bull that.  "

yep, still enforcing it, doesn't mean it will go away. Illegal bullfights will still take place, and will be more expensive than a legal one ever was.  "

If we outlaw bullfights, only outlaws will have bullfights...  "

" @GIVEMEREPLAY said:   

Haven't you two already butchered enough philosophers without bringing Freudian psychoanalysis into this? If you can't respond to my argument just don't reply. I won't think any less of you for it.  "

OK, looks like you need a longer explanation. No problem, no reason to be embarrased.  The point in that message is that I did already reply that some posts ago.  But looks like you are still missing the main point. The main point is that you cannot justify bullfighting for amusement as less ethical than hen use for egg consumption. So whatever you decide to do with one of them, to be fair, you should do that with the other one, or provide a rationale for the difference that makes one unethical and the another one ethical. Something I can foresee you will consistently fail to do.  There is nothing bad in being wrong and learning from the mistakes, the problem is when you cannot accept that due to a lack of self-esteem and are disrespectful in a debate. "

Aw look at the big boys bickering with tenets of philosophy instead of arguments based in reality. Big words have never been bigger or emptier.
 
The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.
 
I for one couldn't care less about a dumb beast dying but I also wouldn't like this thread getting drowned in ridiculous and sad attempts at discussing the value of life with half baked, high school level knowledge of philosophy.

You bitch about personal sniping yet you continue to sling mud about my self esteem levels. What do you know about my self esteem? What is it that you've deduced from my posts that permits you to make such an assumption? You don't know my actual name, my job, my friends. You know nothing about me except what I've said on this forum, which is hardly enough information to pull some long distance psychoanalysis bullshit like you're attempting. You look foolish. 

First things first: it's up to you to show that chicken egg production and the ritual killing of a bull are comparable in the levels of suffering they induce. It strikes me that a chicken producing an egg (something chickens naturally do and which does not harm them) probably involves a lot less suffering that stabbing a bull repeatedly with pikes before finally giving it a mercy killing with a sword. One results in a lot of blood and death, and the other is something chickens do on a daily basis.

Secondly, while chickens can certainly produce eggs under non-arbitrary-suffering conditions, it's quite impossible to ritually kill a bull with pikes and a sword without causing unnecessary suffering.  It is perfectly cogent to support eating chicken eggs while opposing the ritual killing of bulls because one can be done wthout suffering and the other cannot.

 While one lives a life of freedom and an hour of suffering the other group lives a life of suffering. As I said before. Will I have to repeat the same arguments over and over? What could cause such an attitude in a person like you? Should I guess?   

@GIVEMEREPLAY said:

Secondly, while chickens can certainly produce eggs under non-arbitrary-suffering conditions, it's quite impossible to ritually kill a bull with pikes and a sword without causing unnecessary suffering.  It is perfectly cogent to support eating chicken eggs while opposing the ritual killing of bulls because one can be done wthout suffering and the other cannot.

OK, enforce that those suffering conditions are banned as with bull-fighting. I guess in your own country there are millions of hens suffering, independently of how many bulls suffer. It's the same, you just replaced banning egg consumption with banning egg production with suffering, which doesn't take the debate any further. "

You suggested that it was done contrary to the public will. That's a positive assertion and you'll need some evidence to justify that assertion. I am not asserting that the politicians were acting in response to the public, just that you're incorrect in assuming otherwise.     

  Most developed states have rules prohibiting animal cruelty, for obvious reasons. It seems you really are daft enough to deny even that most basic of rights to a sentient being. Not that I'm a vegan, I love my meat, but it also seems quite clear that unnecessary torture is a bad thing.       

 Are you from mars or something? Yes, we educate people that murder is wrong and life is valuable. These are basic lessons taught in every school, by every religion, and by every culture.  Do you propose that we take up a more obvious anti-murder education campaign? What would that look like? Will we all be asked to attend "Why murder is wrong" seminars once a year?     

 I was waiting for it to come to this. I appreciate you being forthright with your inane, philosophically juvenile positions. If your sole guiding rule in life is that might makes right we can end this conversation here. It's an axiom without justification, and thereby without the possibility for falsification. I will but note that you almost certainly do not hold this position, as I would imagine you would like to see successful robbers, rapists and murderers tried and punished despite their evidently greater power over their victims.      

Is this a defense of anarchism? If so, it's still clear that prohibitions on certain undesirable activities will speed up and ensure that ultimate end. In any case if you need evidence of killers who got away with it look no further than the Nazis who lived out their twilight days in Argentina, facing no bad end to account for their bad actions. The same for all unsolved murders, robberies, rapes, etc. Karma is a convenient binky for the oppressed and unexamined (you), but it has far too high a failure rate to be counted as an accurate description of the world.      

My God, you are as dumb as a box of rocks.  Yes, that a majority of Spaniards oppose the ban is in the very title of the article. Yet I was not speaking of how many support or oppose the ban, but rather I was citing the statistic that a majority of Spaniards dislike the activity, thus giving lie to your claim that it is respected by a majority of Spaniards. Further, you fail to recognize that a study of Spain generally tells you nothing about what percentage of Catalonians support or oppose the ban (a majority of them might support it, but they are dwarfed by Spaniards in the rest of the country who oppose it), hence why I said that we have no justification to presume how Catalonians feel about the ban until a study is done of the citizens of that area.      

"  @Jeust:   First of all: Haha, what? Second: Calm down, I was making a tongue-and-cheek reference to a phrase commonly used by libertarians to support the freedom to carry firearms in the USA ("If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will carry guns"). I realize now you aren't from here so you probably didn't get my reference. I was trying to be absurd, not argue. Arguing on the internet is a waste of time... ...But now that you've got me in an arguing mood, yes, I think criminalizing certain things can help solve a problem. Your view of humanity is unrealistic, people suck a lot of the time, especially when they aren't thinking about consequences or are responding to an emotion. I agree that it'd be awesome if we could just demonstrate to people why an idea is bad for them and society as a whole and then have them stop because they realize it's bad. But to think education can realistically stop humans from doing awful things is very idealistic and depends on a vision of humanity that history proves over and over again doesn't really exist. "

 If we outlaw videogames, only outlaws will play videogames...  
 
How does that sound to you?        

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

" Aw look at the big boys bickering with tenets of philosophy instead of arguments based in reality. Big words have never been bigger or emptier.
 
The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.  I for one couldn't care less about a dumb beast dying but I also wouldn't like this thread getting drowned in ridiculous and sad attempts at discussing the value of life with half baked, high school level knowledge of philosophy. "

" @GIVEMEREPLAY: Great, I assume you let mosquitoes bite you. Who would kill one of those wonderful creatures of God just to avoid the inconvenience of some itch?
 
I guess that when you have a salary (if that didn't happen yet or if it ever happens) you will be giving all that is not strictly necessary for your life to charity, since that will help to avoid unnecessary suffering to other people.  lol
 
I assume you only buy eggs with the seal proving that the hens didn't suffer. (Yes, those exist.)
 
But considering I had to provide you the links I think it is obvious your are clueless on that, and this is over.
 
The shallow opinion of the majority rules in democracy, oclocracy may I say, and there is where arguments against bull fighting are, since the activities that have worse consequences for the planet, the people, the animals and the life in it and are not even considered to debate are countless. Keeping things shallow, being part of the mass, only makes the problem worse, but when there is no respect to others, the possibility of change is removed, and the problem worsen deeply.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolt_of_the_Masses 
 
For those interested in real philosophy.
 
For any other reply in this thread, I forward you to read what @Detrian said. I leave this here, you are free to insult me as much as you want if that makes you happy. And anyone can keep thinking that they are absolutely right no matter what. As I said, I don't get paid for being the teacher of anyone in this forum. Good luck. "

" @Detrian said:

" Aw look at the big boys bickering with tenets of philosophy instead of arguments based in reality. Big words have never been bigger or emptier.
 
The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.  I for one couldn't care less about a dumb beast dying but I also wouldn't like this thread getting drowned in ridiculous and sad attempts at discussing the value of life with half baked, high school level knowledge of philosophy. "

Go away.. like.. far away... forever..
 
@Jeust:@Trylks:   To you two, Dog Fighting is illegal... you can go to jail for it, as is cock fighting, but I'm going to sit here and think you both are going to say that "These are DEEP in tradition and should be continued, what does the law need to jump in for!"  In reality both of those are very stepped in tradition, witht he animals being beaten, tortured, kicked, forced to breed, things chopped off and for the bitches in dog fighting, their teeth are RIPPED OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS so they can't fight they male sutor. To the point they use stirrups to breed the violent bitch.  Yet these are just animals and has nothing to do with humans, so this is okay right? TRADITION and all... "

  The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact  protected  bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.  

"I don't have a problem with killing animals, just torturing them. "

 Take a rest. You're outclassed.      

" @Detrian said:

" Aw look at the big boys bickering with tenets of philosophy instead of arguments based in reality. Big words have never been bigger or emptier.
 
The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.  I for one couldn't care less about a dumb beast dying but I also wouldn't like this thread getting drowned in ridiculous and sad attempts at discussing the value of life with half baked, high school level knowledge of philosophy. "

Go away.. like.. far away... forever..
 

" @Catolf said:

" @Detrian said:

" Aw look at the big boys bickering with tenets of philosophy instead of arguments based in reality. Big words have never been bigger or emptier.
 
The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals.  I for one couldn't care less about a dumb beast dying but I also wouldn't like this thread getting drowned in ridiculous and sad attempts at discussing the value of life with half baked, high school level knowledge of philosophy. "

Go away.. like.. far away... forever..
 

What's wrong did your pissy dog die or something? "

What the fuck? Isn't that their national sport or something?  

  I like how you try and redirect with 'Violance is everywhere, we need education death is death.." That's a crock of shit. You know why? Because people are trying to educate you and you know what your doing? Your not listening. 
 
Your ignoring and blocking. 
 
Thats like sitting there and defending slavery because everyone needs to own something. Slavery was a vast tradition, would you have been glad if it were to continue? 
 
Just because it's animals involved dose not make it any less important. You are ignorant and a part of a community that sticks their fingers in their ears and tries to block out the truth.      

   Government's are cracking down on cruel treatment of animals because there are more humane was to do things. And I'm glad they are. Now let's get back on topic. The senseless torture of a bull is ludicrous and shouldn't be going on in this day and age.  

 And you Sir, or madame, I don't care what your are, are a ignorant fool who would rather violence continue for a moment that you can try and read a book to people who don't give a flying FUCK about life. I'd hate to see if you had any pets because they would be miserable and most likely dying. Not that you'd care.      

Make it fair if you want a bull fight.              
    
One man, one bull no help, you know what they can have their flimsy little sword and a cape. That is a sport I'd like to see, you know why? Because the odds are in the bulls favor to mess someone the hell up. 

  In the end the sport was sick, and I'm glad some measures are begin taken to get rid of it. Or even take the killing/injuring part out of it tot he bull. You want a spetical and a way to keep it around stop murdering a bull in front of people. Keep it classy, you can dodge the bull and do a little dance but don't kill it in front of the people like it's some grand thing. It takes one shot to the skull to kill the brain take out the bull without all the stabbing nonsense.      

 The fact of the matter is that this is actually not about bullfighting but a desperate attempt from Catalonia at distancing themselves from Spain, trying to gain some sort of own "national" identity by giving away some of their tradition. Everyone arguing about how Catalonia is making a stand for animal rights or any other bullshit is simply wrong and for proof should turn to the fact that Catalonia didn't ban but in fact protected bull runs and "fire bull" events which cause suffering, distress and frequently death to the animals. 

   But consider this. You don't care about the suffering of the animals. You don't care about violence in the world. You care about what the media make you care about. A dog can drop dead next to you, that instead of seeing if he's alive, you will most likely think if he can be transmitting you diseases. People are laughable.  So don't pretend to be a moralist, but instead embrace the fact that you are selfish. The world could end, and you would care little or nothing, if you weren't affected by it.  I'm not saying i'm better though. In face that enough facts have been given already to give a clear view of the mater, i won't continue with this any longer. See whatever you want to see. If you want to believe that by forbidding bullfights in Catalonia, and by protecting bull runs and "fire bull" festivities they are thinking about the welfare of the bull, it's your decision. I wish you to have a happy and fruitful life.   Bye  "

" @Jeust: Regarding your position that capitalist systems do not produce unprofitable good, you may wish to look at the example of the Lancashire mill workers during the American Civil War. Principles may triumph over economics in any system. "

" @Jeust said:

   But consider this. You don't care about the suffering of the animals. You don't care about violence in the world. You care about what the media make you care about. A dog can drop dead next to you, that instead of seeing if he's alive, you will most likely think if he can be transmitting you diseases. People are laughable.  So don't pretend to be a moralist, but instead embrace the fact that you are selfish. The world could end, and you would care little or nothing, if you weren't affected by it.  I'm not saying i'm better though. In face that enough facts have been given already to give a clear view of the mater, i won't continue with this any longer. See whatever you want to see. If you want to believe that by forbidding bullfights in Catalonia, and by protecting bull runs and "fire bull" festivities they are thinking about the welfare of the bull, it's your decision. I wish you to have a happy and fruitful life.   Bye  "

I don't?  Also I can say your ignorant fool because look at the way you've done this whole thread, like your the right and everyone else's opinion is false. Thats sad. You say your not saying your any better but you do seem to be doing so. And saying I only care about the media is indeed laughable. Perhaps this describes yourself, sir and or madam. I go out of my way to save any animals around my home or in  my view. Would you like the number of the Wildlife folks I've sent baby raccoons to? Hurt doves and hawks, I've tried nursing a groundhog back to health when infested with maggots. So please don't act like you know me.  In any case I shouldn't need to defend what I do and will stay on topic and say the fights are wrong. I've never agreed with them and I'm happy for the ban. I'm not ignorant of the world around me but thinking we are all going to live and run free with the animals won't be happening any time soon.  I do hope in the long run humanity will see error in what it does to animals. I'm not a vegan, but I know the difference between right and wrong, and this is wrong. "

" @Jeust: Yeah, yeah I do. They're hardly there, and hardly ever win out, but that's always been the way. "

" @Jeust: I don't know, to be honest. I was born just a few years before the end of the cold war, when the demise of the east/west narrative has led to a collapse in the sense of what is right and wrong. Not that people are more or less moral than they were during the cold war or before, on either side of the equation, but that sense of knowing where you stood in that dialectical struggle made it appear as though moral principle was less muddy than it is today. But I don't think were doing any worse. We're living in the age of people like Lech Walesa, Gorbachev, Mandela, Harry Schwarz, Romeo Dallaire. You've just got to keep on keeping on. "

fuck animal cruelty.