Captain America: Civil War Discussion (Spoilers)

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DarkeyeHails

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#51  Edited By DarkeyeHails

@wchigo said:
@selfconfessedcynic said:

@starvinggamer said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

I've always been on the registration side of Civil War and honestly the Accords are way tamer, which just makes me more mad at Cap whose stance is now just "I wanna do whatever I want" as opposed to his more nuanced stance in the original Civil War.

I dunno, I think Cap's stance was the same in both. "Don't play politics with me, Hill. Super heroes need to stay above that stuff or Washington starts telling us who the super-villains are." That's more of less the same thing he says to Ross when he doesn't trust having the Avengers at the whims of the UN and all of its members' agendas.

You're right - though, at the risk of derailing this discussion, the Superhuman Registration Act was a US Government thing which in and of itself adds some much needed weight to Cap's reasoning (considering in the real word the US was in the throws of being at war with pretty much half the middle east). In this movie it's the freaking whole UN with 170+ countries behind the treaty, which kinda makes it a bit more difficult to not see the right of it.

Almost more importantly, though, the SRA required all superhumans to register their real identities, which is a huge deal vs the Accords which just require the Avengers as a party to be answerable to the UN. Again, on paper there's not much difference to cap's actual stance, but the reasoning is a bit easier to get behind in the comics as the SRA was pretty seachanging.

Anyway, I by no means think that Cap was being a total asshole or whatever in this movie, but he definitely (IMO) was NOT in the right except for when he was actively trying to stop Stark from straight up murdering Bucky out of vengeance.

While it is the whole U.N., it's impossible to say that the representatives that comprise the U.N. do not have their own agendas. I think Cap explained it reasonably well, in few words, when he said "What if they tell us to go somewhere we don't want to go? Or stop us from going somewhere we're needed?" Not exact quotes but basically sums up what he was trying to get across.

At that point, the Avengers are basically a weapon to be pointed at a target when and if others decide it is necessary. While by no means should they be above reproach or not have to answer for their actions and thus any consequences that result from their actions, having a "governing body" that they take orders from is not necessarily the answer to the problem.

They also go a long way to justifying Cap's concerns with The Accords when he and Tony have the chat over the pens and what not. Cap says he is willing to sign but their have to be safeguards, where Tony loses Cap is when he says Wanda is effectively a prisoner (without facing any due process) as a reaction to people's fear. It's everything Cap loathes and fears made manifest. Sure, it's just a compound for now but is there any guarantee that she doesn't end up cooling her heels in The Raft because she fails to sufficiently stop a bomb again? Tony is so focused on the PR and politics that he isn't considering what he's doing all the way through. Which is not to say that he doesn't have a point, just that they make both sides understandable.

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Sessh

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@dudeglove: I don't remember the exact words, but they are indeed just random nonsene.

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devise22

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#55  Edited By devise22

@dudeglove: It's a representation of how the "public eye" is beginning to view the Avengers, and heroes in general. Instead of referencing specific names, the public/government begins associating any incidents with heroes based on the cities they affect. They have actually been building this as a thematic through line throughout all the series, and earlier in the movie they showcase it with a video to the heroes. This just pushed that theme further.

The reason this can work very effectively is it allows the viewer the scope to see why the public is demanding answers. While a lot of people were frustrated that the Avengers weren't the catalyst for a lot of the destruction/death, the idea was to remind viewers that this isn't just isolated to the Avengers. Heroes, super human type people, and even villains with powers are popping up all over the globe. Even isolated incidents in cities in the US, as shown with Spiderman. The situation according to the public and government is spiraling out of control. And in the mind of the UN how can they justify that the protect their citizens when these events keep happening, and cities are forced to deal with the consequences. Even when there is no death, there is still millions in damages. Since Shield has been eliminated from the public face (but still operate behind the scenes) the public see's nothing happening. So they are the ones likely pushing for government intervention honestly. The other purpose it serves is breaking up the story and allowing them to go around the globe more effectively, while still allowing scenes to be loosely connected.

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jadegl

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#56  Edited By jadegl

@dudeglove said:

By the way can someone tell me what the codewords were in English to winter soldier dude that made him go all dumbass brainwashed? I only ended up seeing the Russian dub because... well, Disney has a history of only distributing captain america in the Russian dub, because apparently (and I'm lifting this from a press release) they want to distance themselves from any "anachronisms" that might offend Russian viewers, and I'm guessing the interrogator person is straight up saying "Lenin, Stalin, Glory to Soviets" or something (in both scenes of the Russian dub, the words were a series of non-sequitorial numbers and phrases)?

Yeah they were just a random collection of words. Some I remember - one, seventeen, freight car, homecoming, rust.

Some people have hypothesized that they're in-jokes to older comics and upcoming movies (Bucky was born in 1917 so they use the word seventeen, the next Spider-Man movie title is Spider-Man: Homecoming, so that's why homecoming was used, freight car because in the first Captain America movie, Bucky "died" falling off a freight car/train) but that's just fans trying to make sense out of just random words. I wouldn't put it past them to use words that are easter eggs for other Marvel properties, movies, events.

But yeah, no real pattern or seeming connection to each other, just a random collection of words that, when put together, prepare the Winter Soldier for his new mission ie - turn him on (no double meaning implied!)

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Zirilius

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@jadegl: I thought it was all random words to prevent him from being activated by accident. There might be some easter eggs regarding the words but I believe subliminal message works in this way. It's also something that showed up in the first season of Agent Carter when she discovers the original Black widow program. I can't find a video with the words they use but it's very similar.

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MocBucket62

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Saw this on Friday. Really enjoyed Civil War. Coming in I kind of thought they should have called this Avengers: Civil War, but much of this story does revolve around Captain America and I felt the movie did a good job demonstrating what both sides stood for. Really enjoyed how they debuted characters like Black Panther and Spider Man (one of the best parts of the movie too) in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as well. The big fight at the airport ended up being more entertaining and comedic than I was expecting and that was without doubt one of the best fights scenes I've seen in a movie.

Anyone else notice the parallels between each team? Maybe all of this was intentional but I thought it was worth posting:

  • Captain America-Iron Man: The two main and most popular characters of Civil War (Unless you throw in Spider Man for popularity)
  • Bucky Barnes-War Machine (Rhodey): The two longtime best friends of the main characters above
  • Hawkeye-Scarlet Witch: Two other Avengers who don't have any super powers, but are still incredibly skilled heroes
  • Falcon-Black Panther: Both are named after animals, or NFC South football teams (Atlanta Falcons and Carolina Panthers)
  • Ant-Man-Spider Man: Named after bugs and the two more humorous characters
  • Scarlet Witch-Vision: Obviously the most powerful of each team and both could easily defeat everyone else if it was a free for all.
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ltsmash

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Given what happens to both War Machine and Iron Man by the end of the film, Tony Stark may want to rethink where he mounts the arc reactors in his suits.

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jadegl

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@zirilius: I think that probably is it - make the words random enough so no one can stumble upon it by accident, and so that only the person in control of the program with the special book can use him. My point was that people, and this is internet culture trying to find easter eggs in stuff, are saying the words could be just clever nods to in universe stuff.

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StarvingGamer

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Looks like registration for enhanced humans was touched on in the Accords after all, just not mentioned in the movie which is a shame.

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bill_mcneal

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I was...taking care of something after Rhodes fell and hit the ground (and after Tony blasted Sam), is he paralyzed from the waist down? I missed where they detailed the extent of his injuries.

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hermes

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@bill_mcneal: Fractured and lacerated vertebras and possible paralysis was what they said before the official diagnosis. They show him later being able to walk with Stark technology assistance, so he is not entirely paralytic.

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ht101

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I finally saw this last night and after reading through most of the other thoughts put down, here are mine:

  • When Giant Man happened, I actually yelled a little bit because I was so excited about it.
  • The mid-credit scene was amazing and I can't wait for the Black Panther solo film. Chadwick Boseman was amazing as T'Challa and I can't wait to see where they go with his character.
  • Spider-Man is the best one we have ever seen in a live action film. Tom Holland nailed everything about Peter Parker AND Spider-Man. Tobey was a great PP but a terrible SM and Andrew was the other way around. Tom nailed both parts and now I'm excited about a new SM film, which I wasn't when they announced they were killing the Amazing SM universe.
  • All of the fight scenes were so well done and the airport scene is probably the best comic fight scene so far.
  • Zemo, while underwhelming in his reason, was the perfect villain for the movie itself. We didn't need some world ending trial to take place to set up the conflict and it was beautifully done.
  • As we learned more about what December 16, 1991 was all about, my heart broke when it was finally revealed on screen.
  • I thought I knew what the end credit scene would be (Secretary Ross beginning his turn into the Red Hulk) but I loved the scene they did choose.

If I think of anything else, I'll come back and put it in later.

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bill_mcneal

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@hermes: Cool thanks, so then I didn't miss anything then.

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thomasnash

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Also can someone explain the font they used for location transitions? I mean, at least it's not the weird digital Bond/Bourne-esque military font that everyone uses that we've seen since Michael Bay (probably) made it popular, but the whole time I thought it was going to turn into a Robin Thicke/Blurred Lines music video, which made me sad because I thought folk might start singing and dancing instead of everyone brooding constantly. It was just bizarre seeing things like LONDON not just in ALL CAPS but taking up THE WHOLE SCREEN without any musical cues

I think you answered your own question their a bit. They used it because it's a bit more interesting than the sorts of fonts that normally get used. A design person could probably explain it better than me, but I think really it's just a case of it being bold and eyecatching. It's a little visual flourish that makes it stand out from other films doing similar things.