Game of Thrones Season 4 - The Thread

I think you're misunderstanding Oberyn's intentions. He wants Gregor dead, but that isn't his goal in this fight. He needs The Mountain to confess, and more importantly, he needs him to admit that it was Tywin Lannister who sanctioned the act. This is why he was putting on a show. He needed the full attention of his very public audience.

You may remember earlier in the season when Tyrion greets the Dornishmen? There are many soldiers from Dorne in the city, and surely there are Dornish nobles at the duel. Them witnessing a confession and having Tywin to blame for the rape and murder of their princess would have tremendous implications in King's Landing, as well as back in Dorne. It would probably result in war. Tywin is the person Oberyn truly wants revenge against, and a duel to the death with the head of the Lannister family is not going to happen. To get revenge he has to destroy what Tywin has built--his legacy, his family, his kingdom. This is why Oberyn needs war.

Now the Dornish have a confession and a dead prince, which may be close enough.

You know, even though I read the books and knew what was going to happen, the show still managed to somehow give me hope that Oberyn would live. I thought it was a great fight scene.

The rest of the episode I didn't find to be too bad compared to what everyone else is saying. I do think that what happened with Dany and Jorah could have been handled a lot better.

Outside of the part where he'd kicked the ass of a man nobody, probably not even super confident Jamie if he still had both his hands, wanted to fight in a one on one to the death scenario, you mean?

No, he didn't finish the job, but that's because in Oberyn's mind, the Mountain wasn't the one he needed to kill to avenge his sister, the Mountain was just the tool Tywin used to kill his sister. You don't avenge your dead sister by destroying the implement of her death, you do it by going after the actual person who wanted her dead. And his emotions got the better of him, which seems reasonable considering this was a highly emotional issue for him. Just killing the Mountain wouldn't satisfy him, and with the Mountain dead he'd have nobody to get the answer he desired.

Besides, even the best fighters make mistakes, else the best fighter would always win and there'd be no point in fighting.

Sometimes it seems like this had become more of Game of Thrones hate thread than anything else. I mean, how can you complain about an episode wherein you see Nathalie Emmanuel naked?

Post above me nails it. Oberyn was clearly looking for a reason to start a war (or maybe restart one? I'm not clear on if Dorne was at war with the Lannisters before or what side they were on during Robert's Rebellion), and now being killed and getting the confession out of the Mountain, it seems like Dorne has its reasons.

As an aside, is it clear that the Mountain is dead? He didn't seem totally dead.

I don't really understand what you come to this show for. Literally every scene this episode was gold. The only scene I was "eh" on was Jon and the other watchmen discussing the recent attack on the town.

Dorne's princess, Elia Martell, was married to Rhaegar Targaryen, the son of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen, who Robert rebelled against. I don't know for sure, but I think it's a fair bet that they would have sided against Robert. It also seems, however, like staying out of the fray unless absolutely necessary is kind of a Dornish trait, so I don't think they were too involved in that war. It's also worth noting that the Lannisters did not fight against the Targaryens until the sack of King's Landing, which ended the war. So the Lannisters and Martells were never directly opposed to each other, and in fact, had at one point intended to intermarry.

The Mountain gets stabbed in the chest twice with a pretty sizable spearhead. I haven't read the books or anything, but I'm pretty sure that motherfucker is dead.

@spoonman671: He's big though. Like, really big.

I like the episode and the ending, i am going to miss Obaryon. The scene with Arya was good. Mormont getting exiled again was heartbreaking. I even like the scene with Theon Greyjoy and the Boltons. The only scenes i dont like are the ones involving Littlefinger.

On a side not what would of happened if the Mountain and Obaryon died together?

I have a problem of reading spoilers, i know ill regret doing it but i can not stop myself. After going through the book ones here i was still left unquenched so i headed over to the ASOIAF wiki and spoiled some things, mostly relating to Tryion , Cersie, and the Mountain... but other tertiary events as well. Weirdly i didnt really regret reading them though because i like to see how they do it on the show, the surprise isnt what i come to GOT for...i come to be entertained which cant be ruined by reading up some spoilers now.

He does have a lot of chest, I admit that. I still think he's dead though.

@thebunnyhunter: It'd be one thing if the spoilers were like a few days old or something; but we're talking years and years here so there's not really any point caring; the purpose of the show is to watch those events play out; much like a film adaptation of a book everyone's read.

@thebunnyhunter: You more or less stumbled onto the reason why 95 % of the people ended up reading the books. If you're going to spoil it for yourself, do it proper. The books are very well written and worth your time. They run parallel to the story of the books, so if you were to start on the fourth book after this season ends, you'd barely miss a beat. That said, the fourth book is openly acknowledged as the worst in the lot.

There's also a good chance that coming seasons are going to mess with the way the time-line are established in the next two books, mind. Rather than tell the fourth book in the next season, they'll likely make a blend between the story lines in the fifth and the fourth books and get about three seasons worth out of the two books combined, probably even stretch into book 6 a bit by then.

The reason for this is that the tales are seperated by location in these two instances alone. It ain't the case with the previous, or the following books. See, the fourth book book is all about the character in the kingdoms, while the first half of the fifth is based solely on characters across the sea and in the north, the events taking place at the same time. It was a weird decision by the writer, one that he acknowledged and said he won't repeat, so I can't promise you that the fifth season will be the fourth book alone. That said, it's still good, especially if you like the underdogs of this series. And the fifth book is plain terrific.

@spoonman671: (Book Spoiler regarding the Mountain if you really want to know.) He's dying, the Viper did him in for, but it takes him a good while to die from his wounds. But then Qyburn brings him back as a mindless husk, and more or less makes him a walking tank. HE'S A ZOMBIE! I wish I was kidding. We don't really find out where this particular plot-line is going until book 6, so there's no telling if it's as dumb as it sounds yet. Probably not, but.. Zombie Mountain under another name is what we currently know. Also, thank you for that picture from the depth of my heart.

To anyone saying there wasn't a double, there absolutely was. You can see it here Oberyn Double. Gonna miss Pedro Pascal though, he was a fantastic Red Viper and I hope he become a much more prominent actor and get many more roles; he certainly deserves it.

I thought it was okay overall though. I disliked that Littlefinger was so poorly prepared here. In the books he had thought this through and knew what each Lord was going to do and even had some in his pocket. I disliked that he was just dumb here when we see he's anything but.

Some other things were kinda "meh" but the one thing I'm really disliking is losing so many excellent and talented actors from the show; including some I think are the most talented actors on the show; and it's a shame. (Book readers know who I'm on about. I think Charles Dance - Tywin, Jack Gleeson - Joffery & Pedro - Oberyn and the guy who plays the Hound(this is potentially debatable though) are very talented actors and will be missed from the show.)

You already know.

that fight at the end, just reminded me of dark souls.... or maybe I have a simple mind?

So you're saying Beast Souls will have a player grappling mechanic?

The more people compare that fight to Dark Souls, the more I am convinced somebody needs to edit a video of Floogan vs Potato Marshal into the trial by combat scene.

Nope, the dodging and back flipping. And then just simply dying itself just made me think a big "YOU DIE" screen.

@spoonman671:

If you care, one little detail that @do_the_manta_ray left out was that: Oberyn poisoned his spear blades. They show this as well right before the fight scene with Oberyn's squire is wiping down his spear blade with a rag. Basically this leaves Gregor Clegane to die a slow, horrific and painful death after the fact. I mean, really brutal and terrifying stuff happens to him because of the poison. So yay! Right?

Oh, and regarding Nathalie Emmanuel not wearing clothes. It's kind of awkward knowing the character she plays is like, 10-11 years old by this point. (Her character is only 10 when coming into Daenerys service in the books). I swear all the ages in the books for any of the younger characters is really fucked.

You may safely assume that the Martells are anti-Lannister. The murders of Elia, grandson Aegon and grandaughter Rhaenys (Rhaegar and Elia's infant son and daughter) decided that. As for Martell involvement in Robert's Rebellion, their territory wasn't a part of that dispute aside from the fact that the Lyanna Stark/Elia Martell/Rhaegar Targaryen love triangle was one of the inciting factors of that particular war. Doran Martell was pissed about said love triangle (this is a long story and isn't important right now) but he didn't bestir himself to involvement for this particular war. At this time, the Martell family was officially an ally of the Targaryen family.

and book spoilers (these are major most recent book spoilers):

of course Aegon is alive, but that isn't germane information for the current goings on of the show right now.

@do_the_manta_ray: Exactly. The way it happend in the show felt very much like a horror movie. The big bad guy is down and out, having been shot or stabbed mutiple times. Only for him to miraculously rise for a final scare.

However it was a good episode not quite as good as the previous one but stil. Can't wait for the next to episodes.

The only question is, do I have the patience to wait 2 weeks so I can watch both episodes consecutively ?

Really wasn't a fan of the final scene. If I didn't care for other storylines I'd be out. I'm usually good with violence, and GoT has taught me to expect it out of nowhere, usually to the best characters. Even expecting him to die due to being a "good guy" didn't prepare me for some really fucked up shit. The red wedding didn't bother me and was more of an "Oh shit!" kind of moment, but I spent close to an hour being really shaken by what I know to not be real. The second lingering shot of his corpse was really unneeded.

Man....not since James Bond's ball bursting scene in Casino Royale have I been this squeamish in a death/torture scene. God, that was mind blasting.

I actually enjoyed most of the episode, other than the NIghts Watch stuff. I honestly like the Bolton bits, mostly due to my bias with the actor that plays Ramsay Snow because he plays such an awesome character in Misfits. The Dany stuff was OK, though since (Episode 8 spoiler) Ser Jorrah doesn't look like he's coming back I've definitely lost interest in her story. Little bummed there's really no more rooting for Ser Friend Zone making it past that point.

Oh man, that's perfect!

Did The Mountain at least die too? Or did he just pass out after? I really hope he died to his wounds.

I keep seeing this speculated on. I can't imagine he did. The fact that he still had the strength to do what he did, despite injuries that would've killed normal men, tells me he's alive.

[Spoilers that I don't think is actually spoilers but I forget when it was mentioned in the show] Oberyn is called the Red Viper because he is well known for applying poison to any blade he fights with. The Mountain is definitely gonna die.

I was more sickened by all that twirling bullshit spear guy was doing. Deserved a good eye gouge and head smash in my books for that.

Did you ever wonder why they called Oberyn 'the red viper'?

That pretty much sums my thoughts right now. Fuck this show, but God damn it it's fucking great. At least we all got to hear Maisie Williams' infectious laugh before all the awfulness and screaming.

I'm pretty happy the fight scene turned ok (well, until the cliched turnaround). To be honest, I was preparing myself to be disappointed, since the majority of the action in the show has been pretty clumsy. I'm more bummed about Oberyn's death than I was about Ned's execution or the Red Wedding; he was one of the few character I liked. Any chance A Feast of Crows introduces new interesting characters?

This season has been painful to watch any of the "Dany" scenes, they are simply boring and so irrelevant feeling, I know shes suppose to be this giant threat to westeros(savior when or if the white walkers invade), but for me with Jorah being kicked out I could now care less about anything that happens with her, hopefully Jorah gets back to westeros or at the very least hooks-up with some non boring characters like Arrya and the Hound, Martin built him up too much to simply be discarded atleast I hope so.

About Oberyn, it's a shame he was killed I haven't read any of the books but he seemed like a excellent character as for if the Mountain is dead or not(he should be with a 12" spear head thrusted into his chest twice) I don't think he is, clearly the Hound will be the one to put him down eventually.

Thoughts about the next couple episodes: Jamie helps Tyrion escape likely to the north(unlikely) or perhaps he'll flee to the other continent(I forget it's name), Jon Snow meets back up with Ygritte and somehow Mances 100,000 strong army will force the Nights Watch to flee, or will be convinced to help defend the wall, but honestly I have no idea how that's all going to play out.

I feel I need to know if there will be introduced any new, cool and likeable good guy characters in the vein of Oberyn.

I know a huge spoiler about a certain lady character who will be returning, but that just sounds stupid.

@legion_: One of my very favourite characters will be introduced in the next season. He's a very different character from Oberyn, though arguably more of a badass and impossible not to respect. He'll be accompanied by a real menagerie of crazy to boot, both in terms of characters and events, so there's reason to be excited on that front.

As for that other stuff you're referring to. It actually makes good sense once put in context.

Fairly sure i have now been spoiled on every single major thing written

I am not saying the best fighters never make mistakes. I'm saying this is the dumbest one you could probably make, and I didn't find it believable. It's like a professional driver accidentally hitting something in front of him with his car because he forgot to put it in reverse. It's not a emotional issue, because this stuff is second nature to someone who is claimed to be extremely experienced. Like tying your shoelaces. It doesn't require thought, it just goes.

Perhaps I'm doing a very poor job of explaining myself. Let me try again: you watched what the fight, you heard how experienced Oberyn is supposed to be. If he had his mind set on getting revenge and nothing else, do you think he would have won? Do you think he would have made that mistake? I certainly don't. What he did is the exact opposite of what he needed to do to get his revenge. This is why I said he is a disgrace.

Doran Martell? I thought he was such a badass in a different way because he's playing to win and considers every move and the consequence of his actions. I particularly liked his little speech about him being the grass; pleasant to walk upon but Oberyn is the viper and how the grass can hide the snake until it's ready to strike and how they worked closer than people think. I seen a casting note for season 5 with him listed and them looking for locations in Spain.

Is the last scene LSH? Its' gotta be, isn't it?

@vaddixbell: No, though that's a character I'm very fond of as well. And he's certainly going to play a very major role in book 6 as the rebellion starts anew. But I was actually referring to someone who's likely going to be even more important. Victarion Greyjoy, who ofcourse is accompanied by other great characters such as Euron Croweye, as well as the drowned prophet. Not only did said individuals completely change my view of the Ironborn, Victarion himself might be the single, most competent fighter we've encountered in the series. And if we're to believe what we've been told and seen of book six, it seems that he's going to manage what we all thought was impossible. Bring Dany back to Westeros after taking Slaver's Bay. Oh, and he's got a fucking flame-hand.

As for your other question, yep. Yep, it is.

Think you could give me a link to said casting note, if you were to find it? I'd be really curious.

@mrjorowe: Hah, you have no idea, man.. There's plenty of mind-bending stuff coming up, beeeeliiieve you me.

But again, I say that the Mountain isn't the person he wanted revenge from. The Mountain, to Oberyn, was just the tool. You don't get revenge for your sister's death by breaking the sword that stabbed her and letting the murderer walk free. Or a more accurate metaphor, you don't get revenge for your sister by killing the dog who bit her (the Mountain), but not the guy who was holding the leash and pointed the dog at her (Tywin).

So, yeah, he wanted to kill the Mountain, but that was just step one. You can't get to Tywin without the Mountain, and while trying to get from step one to step two, he let his guard down. Emotions in the moment, and all that. The Mountain was down, dying. This is Oberyn's moment. The one he's been waiting for, to get the confession he wanted. If I'd lived much of my adult life hoping to get payback for one event and the moment finally came emotions might get the better of me. So yes, I can see how he'd make that mistake.

As for dumb mistakes, I've fucked up tying my shoelaces before when I was tired and distracted. Mistakes are mistakes, and I don't think there are mistakes that certain people, no matter how much experience they have in a certain area, will not make. People fuck up. Sometimes they fuck up doing something difficult, and sometimes they just make a dumb mistake. Saying that's a mistake he wouldn't or shouldn't make given his experience just doesn't hold water with me. Given the chance, people fuck up. That's what we're best at, finding a way to fuck up. :)

Oh, Victarion. I was never really that enamored by him. I think he's an interesting character but not one I liked though. The casting for season 5 has been "leaked" so you can potentially take this with a grain of salt. Read it here (spoilers naturally).

sorry i'm late, but i've been waiting since the beginning of the series to see the final scene of ep 8 come to fruition. i think they went a bit overboard with [ep 8 spoiler] Oberyn's demise and it could have used [VERY minor book spoiler of something that already passed, not sure how sensitive mods are about this] more audience arm losing but other than that it was all I could have hoped for.

Arya's laugh :D D:

Spoilers for Episode 8

http://i.imgur.com/fwlSF53.png

My favorite part of the episode was the "Quentin Tarantino like" conversation between Jamie and Tyron about the guy that smashed the beatles. It was so fantastic.

Relevant quote, possible spoiler.

“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.” - Confucius

@gnomeonfire: That's definitely not what that quote implies.

@fredchuckdave: Originally no. It still fits in its own way though, just far more literal.

His mistake was not killing the Mountain as fast as he possibly could. His mistake was letting his guard down and handing him a chance for an easy kill. He could have talked to the Mountain all he wanted without finishing the fight. What he needed to do, as he should have known, was keep a safe distance, or be on his fucking guard if he feels like he needs to be close to him. He didn't do either.

And no, mistakes are not mistakes. Some mistakes are incredibly dumb and you should feel embarrassed for making them. He obviously did make the mistake. We could clearly see it. What I'm saying is simply that what he did himself caused it and he should have known. He was being an absolute idiot. This is not the type of thing that can be shrugged off with: 'Oh, well mistakes happen'. It's inexcusable. That's what I'm saying.

It's not like he had a spear or anything with longer reach than his prone target(!)

One point that the show brings up is the notion that nobles fight like nobles and warriors fight like warriors. Oberon was a noble. The Mountain was a warrior and a beast of a man. The Mountain knows what it takes to win and will do what it takes to win. Oberon thinks its his right to win.

Oberon's mistake was thinking The Mountain would go down and stay down like any other man he's fought. That the knowledge of one's death would incapacitate him, that the pain of death would keep him on his back. The Mountain just wanted to kill.

Because of his incredibly fashionable snakeskin leather armor!? (I've been spoilt on the real reason but i just wanted to draw attention to the patterning on his armor in the fight)