Is it possible that Suzanne Collins(Author of The Hunger Games) Never saw or read anything about Battle Royal

That poll is way to strong in either direction. I don't know for sure but it is certainly possible. I never heard of Battle Royal, I only started hearing about it because of the hunger games.
She would probably have become aware of it after publishing a book or some of the books or maybe she was aware, it is certainly possible.

It's possible. Battle Royale was not the first take on that concept either, but it certainly was a huge semi-niche-pop-culture kinda thing around 2000-2001. Even if she never saw it or read the book, she may have just have taken in a lot of the ideas through osmosis.

But yeah, there was Lord of the Flies and Seventh Victim dealing with a lot of similar themes back in the 50's too.

Good grief, what a horribly-written article. Even skimming it was making me nauseous. Also a little disturbing that the author apparently did book research by watching Rambo. The short Hunger Games excerpt in it made me glad I'd never heard of the books before now. Ugh. I had been under the impression the Hunger Games stuff was just a western movie adaptation of Battle Royale, so I guess it's certainly possible that author had never heard about it. I had never heard of Battle Royale either until I started watching Japanese TV shows and looked up actor filmographies.

The most dangerous (hunger) game.

I think the fact that you (and I) hadn't heard of Battle Royal when encountering The Hunger Games proves the author could also have been unaware when writing.

In fact, I've heard many times of creators actively avoiding certain subjects in media so as not to affect their own work. It's part of the reason why parallel thinking can be so visible. [Edit: this second part is about the phenomenon in general - not this particular author's philosophy] [Edit 2: Looking into this phenomenon "Parallel Thinking" is something else, and I think the term I mean was "Multiple Discovery"]

Are there any other examples of two people conceiving the same idea independently of one another? I'm sure there are, I just don't have any off the top of my head.

Well, considering it would have taken a few seconds of research on Google to discover that a novel with very similar aspects to the one you intend to write already exists, I see two possibilities: she's a liar; or she doesn't know how to conduct proper or even cursory research into a novel she's writing or she simply didn't care to.

In the former, well gee, it's odd that you would lie considering you obviously don't think it's a big deal that the two novels are so similar. In the latter, the defence of the "parallel thinking" phenomenon would work both ways wouldn't it? If it's possible that very eerie similarities could arise when creating fiction, wouldn't you want to make sure that you have an original enough idea so that it doesn't become close to "Western version of already popular foreign novel"? Even just from a perspective of respecting your work enough to make sure it's unique. Now maybe that's a bit of a stretch, implying similarity to the point of near-identical, but I would say all these similarities which are present in the novels are weird as well:

Smaller districts/disenfranchised populations are ruled over by a tyrannical government.

The games are used as a way for the ruling body to exercise dominance over the subjugated.

Participants are children to heighten the effect of this.

Participants are chosen randomly.

Stage hazards are implemented to discourage passivity and increase participant encounters.

Betting is encouraged among the higher class viewers.

Ringers are brought in to spice up betting odds.

The use of a bird to carry a tune to signal fellow teammates plays an important role in the plot.

Now most of these are pretty easy to imagine being thought up as natural to have in a death tournament fiction (obviously almost no one would participate, so it must be random and involuntary; of course betting would occur, that's how people are, etc.) but I think it illustrates how easy it would have been for her to find BR info had she taken 2 minutes out of her night. Without having to contaminate much of her natural idea. If she's not a liar, of course. Except that last one about the bird. Oh, boy. Now THAT'S a coincidence.

Anyway, I guess it IS possible she didn't know. Though, given the option between "she never knew at all" and "no, she knew about it" I picked the latter. Mostly because I think even in the case she's telling the truth, doing what had to have been an actual lack of research for your would-become-a-hit-trilogy series is unprofessional. And no, not just because it became popular, but because it's the right thing to do. Even if you're trying to preserve your precious "unbiased" mind, I don't think it's too much to ask that before you write your novel, you just do a quick 2 minute search on Google for "children death tournament fiction" (just searched that, first result was a list which had HG and BR in it).

But I'm not an author. Maybe it's common for an author to just say to themselves, "I've been in a bunker for years, but I think I'll write a novel about a boy who lives with awful, hateful members of his family, learns he's a wizard and has fun adventures with friends while battling the cohorts of the evil Lord Boldegort. No need to check for similar, possibly litigious material. Creative freedom and all that."

To be clear, I'm not implying Collins should be sued or anything like that. I don't like Hunger Games at all but I think the way it establishes itself as unique - and also flawed - are in the ways it DIFFERS from Battle Royale. I just think she either has a lackadaisical, careless approach to writing a series of novels or is a lying liar. Again, maybe the former is common among writers, I honestly don't know. A LOT of novels have been written in history, and I could see that as reason for and against researching your fictional concept. I have to wonder how far the grace period of creative freedom and coincidence goes for that, though? Would Collins really have been okay if after all that writing, her publisher turned it down because it was too similar? "Weird, someone else took 'roman gladiators' and applied it to kids. Back to the drawing board!" I'd rather just avoid the chance altogether. Man, I don't know. I probably wouldn't think it was so silly if I thought the HG was actually good.

Not sure how it matters, but she probably had never heard about it.

I never heard about it until a GB podcast mentioning it.

I've heard of Hunger Games though.

I don't think it's unlikely that she didnt know. Not only are there other media with the same idea out there already you could be inspired by. But I also don't think the idea is so impossibly revolutionary that two people couldn't have thought of it independently of each other.

Don't really care either way. Is this even a big deal?

Who cares, it's not like it's a sacred genre to never be used by others than the one who had the first idea. She expanded upon it and made her story around it, wether or not she knew about battle royal in the first place is insignificant.

Its possible, but unlikely. Seems like you would do some research on the subject when writing a book. Its like the guy who wrote heroes nevee heard of the xmen, c'mon son. I dont doubt david cage hasnt seen blade runner though lol.

It is very possible. As someone who does some creative stuff I have actively avoided some things that I found out are similar to my ideas even because I just don't want to be influenced and enjoy my own thinking on it. I know some writers in certain genres feel that way and I know of some musicians who don't listen to their genre and things like that.

Either way, writing and creative work is very welcome, in my opinion, to borrow and grow off any idea so I don't care in the least. "hey there's a big elimination fight" is not some precious idea that can't be taken and every bit of work to make that an interesting piece of entertainment must still be done after you get that basic idea going.

I don't think many people get how often creative works are stealing ideas or referencing and things of that nature. It's so common.

I can think of lots in the Scientific and Mathematical fields. I even found a great Wikipedia article when looking them up. These were the ones that I first thought of:

My immediate thought was to the debate over the discovery of Calculus between Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz. This is arguably the most well-known example in modern mathematics. Newton was studying his theory of Gravitation and invented Calculus to mathematically explain it. Leibniz, coming from a completely mathematical point of view, independently invented it to more effectively describe the gradient and area under a curve. They had a long bitter argument over it (where many scholars of the time sided with the more established Newton and made Leibniz's last years a form of hell).

The most well-known one in all of science has to be the the Theory of Evolution and Natural Selection being independently discovered by both Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace. Darwin used to be Wallace's mentor so Wallace sent him his theory before publication asking for him to peer review it unaware that Darwin was working on the exact same idea. Despite everyone agreeing Darwin had been working on it longer, they published a paper together (i.e. equal credit) in 1858. It wasn't until Darwin published his book On the Origin of Species (1859) that the theory hit the mainstream though and eventually it became synonymous with Darwin's Theory rather than jointly.

Sometimes these events even lead to both scholar's names being used for the discovery such as the Newton-Raphson method for iterating roots (Newton again: not only was Newton a great scientist, he was even better at making sure he got credit). Though others lose the double-naming eventually like the Boyles-Mariotte Law defaulting to Boyle's Law because Boyle had published it over 17 years prior to Mariotte's independent discovery. (Boyle's Law described the relationship between Pressure and Volume in ideal gases and was an integral step in the field of Thermodynamics.)

I mean, both of these ideas stem from that Gladiator battles existed for real. So when you base something off of a real life thing, it's possible you skipped other entertainment/art based on it because you had the groundwork for the actual events instead.

If she did know about it though, so what? In all honesty, so? It's different enough, besides kids murdering kids on an island of murder, they don't really share much else. If it was a one for one re-telling that's obviously different, but it shares a theme or two? Big deal.

That would be like people getting mad at Nolan for making Dunkirk because he knew Saving Private Ryan existed and that was also WWII. Yeah, but so? They're different enough it doesn't matter.

@poobumbutt: you shouldn’t not make a piece just because someone else did it differently. That’s a bad motivation for not doing something. Yours might be better, almost certainly will have your own take on it with perhaps some twists on familiar themes. Very little is original in literature these days. Looking for similarities would drive you crazy. The alternative, not caring, is simpler and probably turns out better, more honest work.

Considering the book didn't make it to the US until 2003, and the movie didn't officially make it until 2012, I think it's extremely possible that she never heard of it. I also find it utterly absurd to suggest that she should have what? Googled "kids killing each other in dystopic future bloodsport for population control"? You get an idea and you write about it. It's certainly different enough, Believe me, with the money it has made, anyone trying to find a way to make money off of it due to copyright issues has done way more legwork than some guy on the internet who is just presupposing that it must be true.

Yes. I think with writers it is pretty known that you crib ideas from different things. I think it can be pretty lost on the audience though. Tarantino taking say the color code names from Resevior Dogs straight from The Taking of Pelham 1, 2, 3. Samurai movies had a big influence on Lucas for Star Wars, with The Hidden Fortress being a big example of one that A New Hope borrowed from. I'm rewatching the Simpsons now and as an adult having seen Hitchcock, Citizen Kane, seen and read some theatre, I can see how many times they reference things like that. Of course that is an animated sitcom, but it goes down to even the basic plots. It's something you see in media lot. The Tarantino thing is super common for him and he calls it "homage", which I think is what it is.

@justin258 said:

My brain always goes to the telephone though it happens way more often than I would think plausible. As a designer I have come up with images that already existed without having known about them.

Is it possible? Sure. I think it's also possible she'd heard of it but hadn't actually read it. But I don't see much reason to doubt her claim.

IMHO the similarities are only skin deep (disclaimer: I've only seen the movies of both). The tone of the story in Battle Royale is very different, not least because everyone in the class knows each other going in. Also that the kids in the class are completely blindsided by having been chosen, whereas in Hunger Games the selection is something that has loomed over them since they were born.

Seeing as this is in PUBG forum, it's also worth noting that BR's premise really is pretty different from what happens in PUBG (an alternate mode where each player is issued a random loadout and that's it could be interesting, though just like the movie pretty unfair for the people who get useless weapons). The terminology "battle royale" for a free-for-all existed long before the book of the same name, so, at least in my head, when we call PUBG a "battle royale" game we're not really implying a lineage to the Japanese book. But, the devs certainly lean into the association.

@justin258: yeah in deadly premonition. The director claims he never heard of twin peaks or watched it but that's nonsense IMO

Is it possible neither read Stephen King's The Long Walk?

@bartok: Preach!

I kind of feel like sometimes in modern times creators shoot down the comparisons and influences some because things are much more litigious now. There used to be a much more free use of ideas and things among creatives but with businesses pulling the strings it's not so open.

I'm not sure why people seem to think that writing a story means you have to look up the exact premise of the thing you want to make. You would research things around it, like I would be surprised if Collins didn't research classism and different types of government and technological possibilities etc. but it would be ridiculous to look up the exact premise of what you're writing. Generally that's a thing you want to avoid, because the feeling of having unintentionally cribbed ideas from someone else is the opposite of motivating, and restricting people from adding their own twist to a genre or premise could stifle possibly interesting ideas and developments being injected into the subject at hand.

I think there is a tendency for people familiar with something to overestimate how well known it is, or to forget that people live very different lives even within a similar culture. Sure, if you're the movie going type or the internet reading type you will probably have heard of Battle Royale, but it's still a fairly niche foreign film. Pop culture is in a different place now than it used to be, back when she was writing the Hunger Games, it's entirely possible she had never heard of Battle Royale and had no convenient way of watching Battle Royale.

I'm not saying that's what happened, she could have taken ideas from it. But it's just as likely that she's telling the truth.

Because nobody with any professional or creative integrity wants to do something that's already been done. What's the point if it already exists? You don't live in a bubble, of course you would want to do a little research into your contemporaries to see what you could be compared to, whether someone has already explored the same ideas you're aiming for, how they did it, etc. I agree with the people saying the concept here is broad enough and that something popular in Japan wouldn't necessarily be known here, so it's possible and even likely Hunger Games was written with no knowledge of the previous book or film. But the idea someone wouldn't at least look around a bit to see what's going on in general is lazy at best or hacky at worst.

Battle Royale didn't come up with that idea, nor is it even the best execution of said idea.

I love how Battle Royale is somehow the first piece of pop culture where people are forced to fight each other to death in a dystopian future despite the fact that it obviously isn't true.

Are you sure that wasn't just some joke that got lost in translation? Swery has been a TP fan boy on twitter for years. Plus some of the bonus features on Deadly premonition show the games crew doing scouting trips all around famous TP landmarks.

Always what I think of instead (and would love PUBG to steal this asthetic or style more)

I don't think she did but even if she did, it's so different anyway. I'd like to see a 100 ppl take the same concept and each write a story. You'd see a 100 different stories.

Is she known to not be open about her influences? That's the only knock I'd have against her is if she comes off like everything she does is totally original and she doesn't give it up for ppl that made her want to be a writer.

@corwag: you could be right about that

They are different enough and Battle Royale does not have a monopoly on sending <Insert number of people> to a(n) <insert location> and have them all fight to the death.

Battle Royale also has a lot of different stuff like randomized starting items, the collars, the danger zones (or whatever they are called), which don't appear in The Hunger Games (at least the movies).

Eh, both are riffs on what could be reductively broken down as "'Lord of the Flies' meets 'Death Race 2000/Running Man,' " and they do different enough things with the premise that I could see Suzanne Collins not knowing about BR.

All matters of who came first aside, I could believe she never heard of it but I find it highly unlikely that an editor or someone involved in the coming together of that novel would have not mentioned it to her. It's very difficult to believe that she had no clue until the book was completely done. Unless she literally shut herself off from the outside world for a year.

Then again William Gibson famously recounts the story of having written most of Neuromancer, and then he went to the movies to see Bladerunner and he walked out early, completely mortified because the movie resembled his original draft so closely. This led him to rewrite the whole thing from scratch, subsequently defining the cyber-punk genre.

While we are on the subject I'd like to say READ THE BOOK! The Battle Royale novel is way better than the movie!

totally conceivable that she didn't know

EDIT: And while we're at it, Stephen King published The Long Walk as Richard Bachman in 1979. It also has themes of a large amount of children entering an endurance competition and the only one to survive is the winner. Very good book.

@sethmode: the US didn't get the film until only recently? It was shown here in the UK on the sci-fi channel around the mid 2000s I guess. It was huge among my circle of friends. I'd guess most people in their late 20s to early 30s would be aware of it. My girlfriend said that the book was huge in her highschool and she's 4 years younger than I am.

I never thought that when I read The Hunger Games. They're not that similar. Death games have long been a part of fiction, and putting kids in the game is just easy drama. One goes at it from a sci-fi angle with a single point of view character, the other from an alternate reality with many point of views.

There are only seven basic plots in fiction so everything is derivative of something.

I feel like there are 2 arguments going on here, one as to whether she knew about the book and the other whether she borrowed or was inspired by it and if that matters. I think she absolutely knew about at least the movie regardless if she read or watched either, i think she's saying she didn't just because of that stigma involved with being inspired or knowing about something similar to her book, and i think even if she did get inspiration from it it doesn't matter because there is nothing wrong with it. I think just being open and honest about it is better but i understand the reality of public perception and how irrational they can be.

I can't speak for how it was recieved in America, but here in scandinavia it was almost impossible not to notice the movie when it hit theatres, it had an insane impact. I find it hard to believe she hadnt heard of it. But they are different enough.

As we are all fans of videogames, I think we absorb some aspects of Japanese culture without even actively seeking it out. So, I think it's easy to say oh yeah of course everyone's heard of Battle Royale, but actually it's probably still a pretty niche thing. Ask yourself, "Does my mom know about Battle Royale?", because really that's who Suzanne Collins is. I don't have any reason to doubt her claim, nor do I think it would be a big deal even if she did draw from it.

People in "nerd" or "geek" forums seem to think that Battle Royale is this super well-known thing. It's entirely possible that an American who's not that into Japanese media would not have heard of this.

@mrcraggle: that's what I recall reading recently. I think there was only ever a very limited theater release. I'm not sure when it was available on streaming. I know I first heard about it and saw it (via streaming) 5 years ago, when a co-worker was saying the Hunger Games sucked because it was just Battle Royale. Which, now that I say that aloud, I realize that I had no idea about Battle Royale when I read the first Hunger Games book haha.

other than knowing the word battle royale, I didn't know about it either until PUBG. though I thought Hunger Games was a rip off Major League Eating at first.

@mrcraggle@sethmode: Though it never got actual wide theatrical release, I remember seeing "Battle Royale" on home video (likely bootleg, or at least imported) at one party or another early this millennium. I think it's one of those movies that the cognescenti knew of, but few others.

It's possible she had a certain level of seperation by being influenced by unrelated works that themselves took inspiration from Battle Royale. Just a theory.

There are so many things that have been conceived of independently that are the same it boggles the mind. There are whole list of similarly conceived ideas in literature, science, and maths. Likely, math shows that NOT having similarly conceived ideas found independently is what would be strange.

I like to read this from time to time to remind myself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discoveries

I think its more fun to say she knew and copied it because then it's like calling her out on something, but I never heard of it before someone said hunger games was copying it. Going by my own experience, it seems reasonable that she could be like me and had never heard of this movie that some people act like everyone has heard of.