The Soccer Thread (Newcastle takeover. For real, this time.)

Pretty crazy game between Toronto and Montreal the other night. Scoring like that would be a pretty good advertisement for MLS if the league was shown anywhere other than extended cable during the regular season.

Despite that, I still think - and call this my provincial American sensibilities - total goal aggregate is a stupid format. Either play single game elimination or a straight game series. At the very least do away with this away goal tie breaker garbage. Shit gets too hard to keep track of. And while we're at it - sudden death is the is the only true overtime format. The play the whole 30-minute nonsense is so Old World.

@lawgamer: I completely disagree. I HATE watching 7 games. Two out of three maybe fine but in American sports its takes forever to get something done. It takes the tension out of the whole thing.

I didn't say seven games, and I agree that would be unrealistic. I was actually thinking more along the lines of a home-home or a 3-game series. And you're crazy if you don't like seven game series. There are no more magic words in sports than "Game 7 overtime."

Is it something just to max out gate receipts and merch? Or is it one of those things where American play-offs across all sports have to be best of seven?

Chapocoense have been awarded the Copa Sudamerica. They will compete in next year's Copa Libertadores and receive something like £1.75m prize money.

In surprisingly darker news, Britian's game is rife with paedophilia. Over the past couple of weeks, former players have come forward telling stories of the abuse they've suffered at the hands of coaching staff. Clubs implicated so far include Crewe Alexandra, Queens Park Rangers, Southampton, Chelsea and (damn it!) Newcastle United. They're all historical cases so far but Chelsea are finding themselves in hot water over their handling of the allegations.

They paid former player £50,000 to shut up.

And now veteran Crewe manager Dario Gradi is to be questioned.

Sorry to barge in somewhat OT, but I found this thread hoping to find more of a Premier primer. Could someone please point me toward pages/links/podcasts that could provide me with Premier League info with the goal of learning enough to have a decent water cooler conversation about it with my colleagues?

Cheers,

MB

@marsbound: I recommend football weekly's podcast. It's mainly about the premier league but they also discuss matches from Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/series/footballweekly

Bob Bradley's finally off and running at Swansea, then. Sunderland's good run coming to a halt. Meanwhile, Newcastle clout Birmingham 4-0. Brighton are right on our tails.

The MLS final was a reminder of why penalty kicks are bogus and should be done away with. A team with 0 shots on goal should not be allowed to win a final. Play until you have a winner. Give teams more subs if you absolutely have to.

@lawgamer: I kind of disagree. If a team manages to keep a clean sheet for 120+ minutes, they deserve to win too. Bear in mind my bias as a Sounders casual fan.

You should timestamp edits to that first post. For a moment I was wondering why all the replies were so mundane.

Atlanta United and Minnesota United FC just completed their MLS expansion drafts. ATLU decided to take two keepers because they can't seem to fucking decide whether or not they are getting Brad Guzan. MUFC, meanwhile, is missing most of a team in general, but they did pick up Femi from NE and Mo from the Crew, so I think they had a better draft.

I'm also glad to see MUFC picked up a goalkeeper. Because, you know . . .

@lawgamer: oh wow thanks for reminding me of that clip, that one will never get old

Seattle pick up anybody? I saw they have lost no picks so I am guessing they did no trade deals and gave away good picks?

@johnlocke: the MLS SUPERDRAFT is different from the Expansion Draft, and doesn't start until January, though from what I see they haven't lost anyone in that draft. Seattle does have 5 draft picks to play with (including one first-rounder at the end, and the rest who probably won't get contracts).

Do US teams have youth setups of their own or do they rely on the college system for young talent? It's such an alien concept to me.

@shindig: From what little I know: MLS teams do have youth academies but the kids can go into college or be taken by other teams outside the US if they throw enough money at them. There's also a bit of an issue regarding the piss-poor compensation the older teens in "Generation Adidas" receive for the very small chance they'll make it onto a first-team roster, so they often opt to go elsewhere. Occasionally the sponsoring teams may sign their academy products to the roster but it doesn't seem to happen that often.

As for the college draft (known as the "MLS SUPERDRAFT" for some reason), that's more a staple of US sports leagues in general, where the pro sports teams recruit from various schools for a shot at staying on the team's main roster (though no guarantee, and the rules vary wildly depending on the sport if there's a lower-league team they can play with instead). The SUPERDRAFT has four rounds, the first two are all anyone cares about, and usually it's just the first-rounder who has a legit shot at sticking on the team. After that, there's still opportunities for those who didn't get drafted to be called up for a trial, but unlike the draftees, they aren't first beholden to the team that picked them, and also the odds are against them for the reasons stated above.

The MLS sides do have agreements with third-tier USL clubs to stash a few players there for the purpose of getting playing time as reserves, and can call them up in case of injury, but that's another story.

@dochaus: Ah ok, so this draft was due to new teams entering?

Good overview above, may I ask, where do most first team players come from? Free agent signings as teams can not directly own a player so don't spend millions on transfers?

@dochaus Thanks for clarifying. Pity they can't do more to retain young talent but money will always talk. There was a guy I know from another forum that got drafted to Colorado Rapids a few years back. He got some pre-season game time but, ultimately it didn't work out. Think he's at Wilmington now.

@johnlocke: Again, I'm not exactly an expert on this, as understanding MLS roster rules are like trying to pin down fucking Calvinball at times considering how often they change and how many "drafts" or allocation slots they have for different categories of players. However, from what I know most young first-teamers coming up do come from colleges or other low-tier/youth teams as free transfers through MLS, it's just that they aren't always picked in the SUPERDRAFT. Most of the spots are spent on those who can claim US citizenship or residency (an issue that has pissed off the Canadian MLS teams to no end), as otherwise the team would have to fill a specific International Player slot, which they are only willing to do if they really like the guy and/or are sure that the person will be considered a US citizen/permanent resident soon. And that's before we get into how Designated Players (usually superstars that are judged worthy of multi-million $ contracts) or Home-Grown Players (allowing teams to sign their academy grads before others might poach them) or Generation Adidas categories fit in, which I'm still trying to wrap my head around.

Also, for those willing to put up the cash, they aren't afraid to pitch their team to international players, but then there's a whole 'nother layer of bullshit to wade through if more than one MLS team wants the player. For example, the Italian midfielder Antonio Nocerino was headed to NYRB, and then those rights were supposedly traded to DCU, except Orlando then swooped in and was allowed to take him instead for some reason.

@shindig said:

Yeah, the MLS system is a bit of a mess. I don't even try to understand it. It's got a of elements that exist in other American sports like drafts and expansion drafts. Then it's got a nascent academy system, designated player rules, Generation Addidas and TAM (which sound like an energy drink). But whereas any of those things would be pretty straightforward in other American sports, you have to layer the MLS single-entity structure on top of everything, plus how it interacts with international rules, and the whole system gets really complicated really quickly.

If you get confused about why all these rules exist, I think it's helpful, particularly for people outside the US, to realize what a huge paranoid streak runs through US Soccer. People remember the old NASL, how much talent it had, and how reckless spending caused it to collapse almost overnight. That's why the MLS has so many rules regarding player movement and spending, clings so tightly to its single-entity status, and fought free-agency tooth and nail in the last CBA. The league is terrified that if teams competed with each other and players could move where they wanted that salaries would balloon, the league would collapse, and soccer in the United States would be sucked into a black hole.

Honestly, I think we're well past that point by now, but you'd never believe it by listening to the execs.

To be fair, the MLS seems better run in some ways than the leagues in Europe. The cost control mechanics seem to work really well (on the most part, I know Chivas went bankrupt, or a team with a similar name if I have got it wrong?) where as here, a lot of teams basically spend money they do not have in the hope of making something happen.

I guess another question I have is, how do teams fund the stadiums, i.e. is it like the NFL where the city pays for it or do the clubs tend to actually buy their own grounds? I find it pretty disgusting that Saint Louis has to pay for a stadium to 2021 that is now not used because the Rams just moved to another city. I suppose that is the problem with franchise teams, it works in that respect of it allows the league to take back control of a team and maybe find a new owner to take over, but, it also allows for these silly moves where teams can just go to another city if they so wish.

I'd imagine they'll be mostly owned by the city. I can't imagine franchises having the funds (with the exception of Red Bull <yourtownhere> or those Etihad fellas). I'd imagine you could justify it to a city as a venue for other events like concerts, conventions and such. It's a pity the franchise system results in such a nomadic lifestyle. Soccer built in Europe around workplaces and roots were laid down in the communities they dwelled in. It's a shame American sports teams don't endorse that kind of ownership.

@johnlocke: That depends. It can be tax hikes, entirely privately funded, or a mix of the two. Each one is unique and really the only unifying factor is that the process is usually really contentious.

The saga of the MN United Stadium provides a good example. It was originally going to be build in Minneapolis, but the Mayor essentially killed it by refusing to budge on what the property taxes would be for the stadium. So in swoops St. Paul, who offers land that used to be a bus depot but is now abandoned.

The broad strokes of the plan that got worked out is that the team pays for the stadium itself but the city pays for the infrastructure upgrades to the surrounding land (i.e. sewers, parking areas, etc.). The stadium gets signed over to the city when its done, in exchange for the team being exempt from construction taxes and getting sales tax breaks and the city getting a property tax exemption from the state. Then there were issues of how high the stadium could be, with the end result that to address the height issue, the field will be sunk below the surrounding ground level, so most fans will actually enter and walk down to get to their seats.

But the stadium is going to have to demolish a mall to get built, and those leases are owned by private businesses who still haven't agreed to anything yet. They've actually had to start construction on the far end from the problem area. They're hoping that by the time the construction reaches the mall, they'll have worked something out.

Like I said, it gets complicated. And cities I think are gradually waking up to what a raw deal they usually get on stadiums. The San Deigo Chargers are probably going to move because they lost a public vote on funding a new stadium. Usually teams use the threat of a move to get fans to agree to higher taxes, but San Diego voter essentially said, "Nah. We're good."

League of Ireland's rebranding proposal is daft.

Chasing American audiences make a little bit of sense, to be fair.

I guess they would be unhappy if they were.... Charged more tax? I will grab my coat haha.

But interesting points, also puts that Mall in a great position to negotiate a deal as they can flat out refuse to sell or demand a high price given the stadium is already being constructed. I get the feeling the Miami team Beckham wants to start has a similar issue in that they have no land where they can build as the Cities keep refusing them planning permission.

@johnlocke: For reference, this is what's there now (plus a Rainbow Foods supermarket out of frame).

It's kind of a depressed/not great part of town, so I suspect that if the mall tenants get too stubborn the city would try to claim eminent domain, pay a low-ball "fair" market value figure, and tear it down whether the businesses like it or not. The major leaseholders are all big corporations, so they probably know what's up.

Since there's a new commercial area being built around the stadium, I would imagine the ultimate deal will involve the tenants who want to stay getting some sort of preferential choice of space/rent in the new digs.

@johnlocke: Chivas USA folded because no one was going to the games, the ownership (Chivas de Guadalajara) wanted nothing to do with it, and they were taking space that could go to Atlanta, Minnesota, etc.

then again LAFC is coming in 2018 so whatever, don garber does what don garber wants.

I gotta say I'm a little worried Alexis Sanchez will leave Arsenal and go to China. Looking at Oscar's deal which is reported to earn him £400,000 a week, it's going to be hard to turn down that kind of money.

@bill_p: I have to admit, it seems odd how the money has just become huge there. I guess there has been some for a while (with the likes of Drogba going there a few years back), but, I would be wary as a player going over there for these massively inflated wages. I mean, what if these companies decide not to bother with it after a season or two, will they end up getting the contract ripped up or will the clubs leave massive debts.

Curious to see how this pans out, as, if the China teams can become really strong, then it would be interesting to see how they do in FIFA Club World Cup assuming they begin to dominate the Asian Champions League. Also curious how this will affect the China national side, as this is where the money spending is hoped to improve the national team I believe. Having good quality players in the league to help the national players improve is a good idea, as long as the coaching levels improve. I can get why it is an attractive proposition as well, I mean, heck, if I was offered three or four times my wages to do the exact same job elsewhere, then yay for new job!

Dries Mertens just scored 7 goals in a week with Napoli, here is the last one to Joe Hart

Absolutely beautiful

No just no.

@cagliostro88: What a goal, he wants some fish with that chip!

No wonder Hart did nothing, a goal out of nowhere basically there.

@lawgamer: Really late on the reply and yes that's true. But then i would rather just watch the final game instead of the whole thing. At least with 2 games and extra time i can watch a chess match.

http://imgur.com/xUIufHnAlso The Fire Rises Brothers

@marsbound: Sunday Supplement on Sky Sports or the Ball Room on Youtube

We're going to see this happen more and more as China attempts to build a league. Nobody can compete with the money they can spend. If enough stars go there for more money than they'd get in Europe, it'll be more interesting for others to follow and for people to watch. The Oscar deal you're talking about is rumored to be for £60 million (!).

I think Sanchez will settle with something a bit lower just to stay in a high-reputation league. The Oscar money is crazy though; he's just playing football not saving the world.

@funkydupe: Yeah Sanchez looks like the kind of guy who wants to achieve something in his career.He may leave arsenal but there will be loads of bog clubs looking to pick him up.

The Oscar deal is crazy but so far they've been wasting money on relative nobodies, people who's careers have stalled. I think it'll be a long while yet before a genuine world class player heads over there.

Merry Christmas. You're fired.

That didn't last long.

@lawgamer: damn, I knew that the axe would probably fall on Bradley's head, but I didn't think that was going to happen literally today.

@dochaus: Yeah, it kind of sucks. To be fair, Swansea have looked awful for the last several weeks. And it sounds like the supporters were just about ready to burn down the stadium if a change wasn't made.

That said, I don't know what everyone was expecting? They were relegation bait before they appointed Bradley and he didn't have a transfer window to change up the squad. Seems a little unfair to hold him responsible when he inherited a terrible team.

The really shitty bit of this is that it reinforces the idea that Americans don't know what they're talking about when it comes to soccer.

It's hard to see them leave this rut without a new man in charge. If they want to do this quick, there's only one man available. Bradley just hasn't made any impact. Not sure Pardew will fair much better but he might get a honeymoon before the traditional 12 game slump that puts him out of the job a year later.

Canadian international David Edgar faces a battle to save his career after being ran down by a car. Damn.

US Soccer has decided that both the NASL and the USL will be given Division II status. Because logic and reason are clearly not needed to improve the game in this country.

Man, there are days I seriously hate our federation.

I'd love the US to have a proper league structure. Even if it was propped up by college sides.

I can't even imagine the state of a 48-team World Cup. 2026 isn't miles away. £10 says China manage to host it.

I hate the entire concept of a 48-team tournament. Why not make it 64, or a 128? Hell, why not let every team in the world in and have the thing last 3 years? If they're so freaking desperate to make the tournament "inclusive" just make an NIT version of the World Cup. Then all the shitty teams get their money and none of the rest of us need to watch it.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. And driven by nothing other than naked greed. People bitch about the NFL, but they've got nothing on FIFA. It burns me up all the more because the US votes were the ones that put Infantino in charge to begin with. We could have been kingmakers but we choose to put yet another technocratic, possibly to likely corrupt Swissman in charge.

Is is possible to secede? 'Cause I think it's time for some countries to just up and leave. Not that we'll be the one's to do it - Sunil Gualti is far too milquetoast to ever do anything so controversial.

If you want to give lesser nations some serious game time, 64's an easier option. It'll cut down the qualifying too which will give the domestic leagues less of a headache with less international breaks.

@shindig: China is supposed to host the 2030 one

They've yet to table a bid. There are six early adopters: Chile, Uruguay & Argentina (joint bid), New Zealand and Australia (joint bid) & England.

Out of interest, 2026's confirmed bidders are: Canada, United States, Mexico, Columbia, Morocco & Algeria. Rules state it cannot be held in Asia or Europe.