Leave maturity for married people and people with kids. Don't be ashamed of what you find fun.

You're never too old for fun.

@Hailinel said:

Video games aren't just for kids, though. I am an adult. I play games targeted at both my age range and those that are meant for wider audiences. There's nothing to debate about that because it's the truth.

Then you better not play Animal Crossing. There is no reason an adult would be playing that. Unless they were up to something.

Look at movies when they first came out as a form of entertainment.  They were seen as a total gimmick - the first films were a couple minutes long and featured monotonous scenes of people walking in and out of buildings.  As the medium started getting it's legs, people started taking it seriously.  Now we have all of these lavish ceremonies celebrating film.  Film can most definitely be considered art.
 
Now look at television.  When that was first invented, people were saying how it would ruin society - how it would turn children's brains to mush, how it will negate the radio, et cetera.  It's had over half a century to mature and now it's image is considerably better than it used to be.
 
My point is, the video game industry is still in it's relative infancy.  As the technology improves, as the phenomenon grows, and as the stories become more complex, I have no doubt that video games will be held in a brighter light than they are now.  Patience!

I wonder what Jenova Chen and his buddies think of painting, an art form in which most of the best works by the most skillful, accomplished artists depict beautiful naked/half-naked women, muscular men fighting, or a little of both. I mean, if an intelligent adult can't enjoy male-oriented, "childish" video games, then surely that same adult must find all those paintings by Bouguereau, Rubens, Michelangelo and other such immature hacks completely and utterly uninteresting.

@rebgav said:

@nintendoeats said:

I miss the days when sitting around discussing philosophy in coffee shops wasn't considered pretentious >_<

The 1930's?

Yes. My favorite person in all of history is George Orwell.

No I was not born in the 30s. You know what I mean.

I'm indifferent about it. I like being challenged emotionally, mentally, and physically by games just as much as I like slogging down on the couch and shooting kids in their stupid kid faces on Call of Duty.

I am the 1%.

I don't think that to enjoy something as an adult it has to be intellectually stimulating. There's something to be said for escapism and plain fun. The statements in the article and those made by the OP strike me as a bit pretentious. I love interesting stories and innovation as much as the next guy but its a bit ridiculous to claim that Call of Duty or even Mario are games that adults can't enjoy because they don't give insight into the meaning of life. And just because a game doesn't make you think doesn't mean it isn't positively stimulating your brain. The same goes for movies, shows, music and books. Random comedy a is just as valid a form of expression as thought provoking documentary b. As is consuming them.

@Icemael said:

I wonder what Jenova Chen and his buddies think of painting, an art form in which most of the best works by the most skillful, accomplished artists depict beautiful naked/half-naked women, muscular men fighting, or a little of both. I mean, if an intelligent adult can't enjoy male-oriented, "childish" video games, then surely that same adult must find all those paintings by Bouguereau, Rubens, Michelangelo and other such immature hacks completely and utterly uninteresting.

The fact that those paintings have nudity doesn't by nature make them immature. Mature games don't have to eschew violence, or nudity, we have to demand that our art is capable of treating these issues with some level of intelligence, it's just how these issues end up getting displayed that's important here.

@nintendoeats: I wouldn't say it's considered pretentious nowadays, I think it's just that a lot of people don't really understand the philosophy they're discussing, or the intellectual tradition that precedes it. I have nothing but respect for anyone that wants to genuinely engage on any issue. But somebody comes off as a dick when they start trying to apply Ayn Rand to complex moral theory or something.

@Bocam: Man. Now I'm going to Jail. Or hell. Not sure which comes first. Also which anime is that?

I like video games.

@ArbitraryWater: Nisemonogatari

its*

do*

@Bocam said:

@ArbitraryWater: Nisemonogatari

Incest, Vampires, and Lolis? Sign me up! How despicable.

Why can't video games be like any other medium and have both the intellectually stimulating content as well as the mindless shooting zombies games? Look at movies: You have movies that have a message, such as Adaptation or American Beauty, but you also have mindless summer blockbusters, such as Battleship and Transformers. Both kinds of content can coexist with each other. There's no need to say that the video game industry needs to "grow up." There is enough space for the serious, mature games, as well as the "shooting dudes in the face" games. I think some people are looking too much into the video game industry when the film industry has Hollywood's big fat fucking asshole constantly shitting out movies like Grown Ups and Jack and Jill.

@Sweep said:

In relative denial that the majority of games we play are actually immature male-oriented power fantasies with a severe lack of innovation, writing ability and variation. But you play them because, hell, it's fun shooting zombies in the face. Who doesn't like shooting zombies in the face? Nobody I want to know about.

Until some inconsiderate bastard speaks up and points out that, regardless of whatever statistic you can dig up online, no matter how articulately you can defend your favourite addiction, videogames are childish.

Hey now,

isn't the chance of immaturity/ escapism one of the big perks of entertainment? To do what you can't do real life as you alluded to Sweep? I spend 12+ stressful hours a day being very responsible, blowing off some steam being silly is good for you. I've read some studies several years ago by a couple Prison psychologists that demonstrated playing violent videogames actually helped some inmates control their violent urges by giving them a means to act them out without actually hurting someone.

I mean people of all ages act like animals at sporting events and it's considered fun. And at Halloween parties and such people cut loose. Why do videogames get such special consideration? What really is so much more immature about playing Call of Duty than the so called "mature" choice of going to a Pro Sporting event and acting like a hooligan? Or going to a bar and getting smashed? Or watching a Hollywood blockbuster? Or reading the latest Mystery Novel by your favorite writer? etc etc

In my opinion it's largely a product of the Mainstream Corporate media always reflecting the inner perceptions of Baby Boomers (which they still dominate). Games weren't part of their generation so they automatically dismiss them as worthless chilidish pursuits. Just they always do with anything Generation X does or likes (and now seemingly the Millennials too). We're slackers, our music is bad, we don't understand the 60's, blah blah blah. They obviously won't take them time to actually learn about them so who cares what they think.

Movies are a perfect counter example, yeah there are plenty of "serious films" out there but look at their box office receipts compared to Transformers or ID4 or Titanic. No one is dismissing the whole medium although it's largely dominated "immature male-oriented power fantasies" as well. But Baby Boomers grew up with movies, TV and professional sports etc, so of course they are acceptably mature pursuits in their eyes.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be cool if there were more variety in themes and aspirations in videogames so you can have more choice in what to play, so that more games like a Braid or a Flower get made. There definitely is room for more thoughtful material on the market and definite ways in which games can get better.. But let's be real here, it's up to game makers to make them. The success of Braid and Journey shows that if you make good art house -esque content people will buy it. And with Steam it's easier than ever to get stuff like that published.

Frankly it makes business sense for more people to make games like that, so it's going to happen.

As much as I like and respect their work, what I don't like about indie devs like Jonathan Blow, Phil Fish and Jenova Chen is their seeming need to tell us the games we like are "bad". There are things in certain games that are definitely bad, but the whole medium. C'mon man that's bull.

I just wish those guys would show us what they want to do with the medium, letting their own great work stand its' own merits, instead of ripping others which only makes them look petty and pretentious.

I like games, I think there's nothing wrong at all with playing them at any age. I acknowledge we certainly could use some more variety of choice but, frankly I think it's time we stop apologizing for them.

@Sweep said:

you play them because, hell, it's fun shooting zombies in the face. Who doesn't like shooting zombies in the face? Nobody I want to know about.

This image when paired with this line makes me laugh.

Video games are just the latest scapegoat for disconnected, over guarding, big into religion, take your pick, who want their politicians guarding their kids instead of taking the time to actually be interested in what the fuck their kids are up to. Music had to suffer, actually still is though not at much, through this same ordeal since the 50's, and lets not forget the ton of BS movie makers are still going through. Now it's the video games turn. Eventually people will figrue out it's really not the droids they were looking for and move on to a new scapegoat.

The handful of games I've played that have dealt with complex adult themes in a thoughtful in-depth way are adventure games. Mostly 2D, point and click adventure games. I suppose Heavy Rain could go in there. When I look at books, film, etc., I really believe that games are only tapping into about 5% of their potential, and most of that is squandered on male power fantasies. I accept it will be that way until I am dead or too old to operate a computer or hold a controller. But just like there are movies and books that cover every theme and situation in human experience, I hope video games can actually become more innovative. Perhaps actually look at the human beings around us every day and draw from their experience rather than focus groups and demographics. I love videogames. I just feel like I'm in a library with only one shelf of books and 5 authors that keep churning out sequels.

Another fine post and breaking news article from Giantbomb moderator Sweep!! Tell us, how do we "grow the fuck up"?

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

C.S. Lewis

That's all I have to say about childish things or whatever.

*GASP* Did you just speak out against games *GASPS AGAIN*!? Seriously though, i guess you're right. And that's why the majority of gamers are males...we never grow up.

If video games are for kids I guess I'll be young forever.

We need designers like Jonathan Blow and Jenova Chen to be dissatisfied with the body of games out there and want something different. That said, I agree with what Jeff Green says has been saying on twitter, which is that games are fine, they're often silly and fun, and we want that too. We don't need to settle on one ideology; we need thousands of voices.

@Icemael said:

I wonder what Jenova Chen and his buddies think of painting, an art form in which most of the best works by the most skillful, accomplished artists depict beautiful naked/half-naked women, muscular men fighting, or a little of both. I mean, if an intelligent adult can't enjoy male-oriented, "childish" video games, then surely that same adult must find all those paintings by Bouguereau, Rubens, Michelangelo and other such immature hacks completely and utterly uninteresting.

The fact that those paintings have nudity doesn't by nature make them immature. Mature games don't have to eschew violence, or nudity, we have to demand that our art is capable of treating these issues with some level of intelligence, it's just how these issues end up getting displayed that's important here.

@Icemael said:

@beej said:

@Icemael said:

I wonder what Jenova Chen and his buddies think of painting, an art form in which most of the best works by the most skillful, accomplished artists depict beautiful naked/half-naked women, muscular men fighting, or a little of both. I mean, if an intelligent adult can't enjoy male-oriented, "childish" video games, then surely that same adult must find all those paintings by Bouguereau, Rubens, Michelangelo and other such immature hacks completely and utterly uninteresting.

The fact that those paintings have nudity doesn't by nature make them immature. Mature games don't have to eschew violence, or nudity, we have to demand that our art is capable of treating these issues with some level of intelligence, it's just how these issues end up getting displayed that's important here.

And what's supposed to be so immature about, say, Gears of War (the game that's most commonly used as an example of why games need to "grow up"), aside from occasional silly lines in cutscenes that make up less than 5% of the game and barely even matter at all in the big picture? It's a game about fighting a desperate battle for the survival of the species for fuck's sake. Then you have Chen and his little friends making games about shit like collecting flower petals and pretending that's mature and intellectually stimulating, and that they're breaking new ground or something. Laughable.

The overall story in gears might be interesting but it's not presented in a meaningful or interesting way in the game. That game is about killing thousands of locust, the story is a window-dressing that shows up every once in a while to remind us that there's a reason as to why we're shooting things. Just because the subject is extinction doesn't mean it's somehow handled well as a story. I also like how dismissive you are of Chen's work, that's pretty cool. Clearly if a piece lacks the scope of being about the extinction of a species then it's not mature regardless? A mature product doesn't have to be one with a heavy tone, stop conflating the two.

@Icemael said:

@beej said:

@Icemael said:

I wonder what Jenova Chen and his buddies think of painting, an art form in which most of the best works by the most skillful, accomplished artists depict beautiful naked/half-naked women, muscular men fighting, or a little of both. I mean, if an intelligent adult can't enjoy male-oriented, "childish" video games, then surely that same adult must find all those paintings by Bouguereau, Rubens, Michelangelo and other such immature hacks completely and utterly uninteresting.

The fact that those paintings have nudity doesn't by nature make them immature. Mature games don't have to eschew violence, or nudity, we have to demand that our art is capable of treating these issues with some level of intelligence, it's just how these issues end up getting displayed that's important here.

And what's supposed to be so immature about, say, Gears of War (the game that's most commonly used as an example of why games need to "grow up"), aside from occasional silly lines in cutscenes that make up less than 5% of the game and barely even matter at all in the big picture? It's a game about fighting a desperate battle for the survival of the species for fuck's sake. Then you have Chen and his little friends making games about shit like collecting flower petals and pretending that's mature and intellectually stimulating, and that they're breaking new ground or something. Laughable.

Yes, because playing virtual Cowboys and Indians or Cops and Robbers is the height of maturity. Adjectives like desperate and verbs like battle don't make gun porn any more mature than what it really is. Gears of War isn't high brow in any context, even its morality is all kinds of fucked up -- the humans are the invading force and it explores nothing new in terms mechanics or storytelling. Gears of War isn't mature in the least unless you happen to see a movie like Commando as mature. Kids are fascinated with gore. The thing about Chen and Blow(hard at times) and their ilk is that they want to explore new territory using new mechanics and that should be celebrated because without developers like Chen all we'd have are games from already established genres.

The overall story in gears might be interesting but it's not presented in a meaningful or interesting way in the game. That game is about killing thousands of locust, the story is a window-dressing that shows up every once in a while to remind us that there's a reason as to why we're shooting things. Just because the subject is extinction doesn't mean it's somehow handled well as a story.  Just because the subject is extinction doesn't mean it's somehow handled well as a story.

I also like how dismissive you are of Chen's work, that's pretty cool. Clearly if a piece lacks the scope of being about the extinction of a species then it's not mature regardless? A mature product doesn't have to be one with a heavy tone, stop conflating the two.

@Icemael said:

@beej said:

I also like how dismissive you are of Chen's work, that's pretty cool. Clearly if a piece lacks the scope of being about the extinction of a species then it's not mature regardless? A mature product doesn't have to be one with a heavy tone, stop conflating the two.

I said none of the things you apparently think I said.

That's exactly how it reads to me too. The italicised 'mature' coupled with the tone of the rest of the sentence sure makes it sound like you're dismissing Chen's work.

@believer258 said:

Eh. I don't give a flying fuck if it's the most mature, most intellectual thing on the planet or the stupidest, most sophomoric thing on Earth. The question I ask is "Am I glad I'm playing this or do I want to be doing something else right now?"

Yes, because playing virtual Cowboys and Indians or Cops and Robbers is the height of maturity. Adjectives like desperate and verbs like battle don't make gun porn any more mature than what it really is.

Gears of War isn't high brow in any context, even its morality is all kinds of fucked up -- the humans are the invading force and it explores nothing new in terms mechanics or storytelling.

Gears of War isn't mature in the least unless you happen to see a movie like Commando as mature. Kids are fascinated with gore.

The thing about Chen and Blow(hard at times) and their ilk is that they want to explore new territory using new mechanics and that should be celebrated because without developers like Chen all we'd have are games from already established genres.

@Icemael said:

@beej said:

I also like how dismissive you are of Chen's work, that's pretty cool. Clearly if a piece lacks the scope of being about the extinction of a species then it's not mature regardless? A mature product doesn't have to be one with a heavy tone, stop conflating the two.

I said none of the things you apparently think I said.

That's exactly how it reads to me too. The italicised 'mature' coupled with the tone of the rest of the sentence sure makes it sound like you're dismissing Chen's work.

I like guns.

Yes

Yeah the majority of movies and tv are basically the same thing you could claim the same about a lot of book even all entertainment can be broken down to simple immature escapism.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with every tiniest detail of what you wrote, but I'm damn glad you wrote this Sweep. I love video games and I love a lot of what they're doing now, but I'm also very unhappy to see that their themes, narratives, and often their relevance to our lives remain lacking and immature. When you bring that up with people, especially around these parts, it seems like the reaction is one of desperation to cling onto immaturity and keep games from branching out, changing, and becoming more human. I love silly action and male power fantasies as much as the next guy, but if that is all video games is going to be until the day I die, I'm going to be very disappointed.

@Gamer_152 said:

I'm not sure I agree entirely with every tiniest detail of what you wrote, but I'm damn glad you wrote this Sweep. I love video games and I love a lot of what they're doing now, but I'm also very unhappy to see that their themes, narratives, and often their relevance to our lives remain lacking and immature. When you bring that up with people, especially around these part,s it seems like the reaction is one of desperation to cling onto immaturity and keep games from branching out, changing, and becoming more human. I love silly action and male power fantasies as much as the next guy, but if that is all video games is going to be until the day I die, I'm going to be very disappointed.

I agree with you and Sweep on a lot of things Gamer152 but I disagree with why this gets a negative reaction.

I get what Sweep and you are saying that we need more mature, more thoughtful and more varied games and I think a lot of people do. Heck I do myself!

What I reject is that we currently have is somehow bad. The absence of more "mature" (for lack of a better term) games that is the real problem, not the presence of "immature games. I completely agree that there is a lot of potential in the medium for thoughtful experiences and storytelling that has not even been close to being realized. But that doesn't mean immature games should go away or be forced to change. Frankly I don't want to ever see a "mature" Super Mario Bros. or Call of Duty, what we do need is a lot more new IPs like Journey.

That's what sets me off and lot of other people I imagine as well. That's why people get so reflexive about it, because by implying what games have now as being bad it implies people are bad for liking them.

Think how different this conversation would have been if Jenova Chen had just talked about things he thought video games could do that they haven't yet or things he would like to do in future games. People would be juiced! Instead he goes out there and passes judgement on the mass market entertainment stuff with stuff like this.

"My biggest complaint for computer games so far is they are not good enough for adults,"[Jenova Chen] said.

that's not helpful or productive. Whether he meant to or not, he just implicitly slammed every adult who plays computer games and likes them. Why would anyone expect any other response than a pushback?

Show us better and cool stuff, don't lecture me. Oscar caliber movies don't present themselves as "mature enough for adults unlike Transformers; Dark Side of the Moon" and neither should Blow, Chen etc. Successful independent restaurants don't say "eating at the chains is bad", they say "come experience original local food".

Chen's comments/attitude are not an effective way to sell people on new ideas.

And that sentiment is also why @Sweep got a negative reaction to this blog, which largely has sentiments I think many might agree with.

Positivity man, it's the way to go.

Yeah the day I stop doing what I enjoy because I give more of a shit about what others think...

@Slag: You misunderstand me, I don't think "immature" games are a bad thing, they're not something I ever want to see go away, as I said in my first post, I love a lot of what video games are doing right now, and I love my power fantasies. I don't want games like Saint's Row the Third, Batman: Arkham City, or the other fantastic games of our generation to disappear entirely from our future, I just want, like you do, to see a wider range of games, and games that get better at speaking to me as a human being. I also do agree that Chen's comment about games not being good enough for adults was poorly worded, I think a better way to put it would be that they do not fulfil all the emotional needs of adults and do not appeal to a wide range of adults.

I disagree with you on two big issues though, the first one being that we should only show people what games could be and not criticise what they are. I think not telling people about what games could be is a mistake a lot of game pioneers make, but I don't think criticism of the industry on that scale is something they should avoid. Criticism is good, it is productive, and by no means can we not hold up something as valuable and important, while at the same time applying strict criticism. If we criticise companies and games individually and expect them to improve because of it, why can't we apply that philosophy to the whole industry? You're asking for people to create a solution to a problem without making clear what the problem even is to begin with. While I see where you're going with the restaurant/movie analogy I think it's a little off. This isn't Chen putting "Call of Duty is shit, play this instead" on the Journey cover, I think a more suitable analogy would be that we had a world where almost all restaurants were cheap chain affairs and almost all movies were actiony summer blockbusters, then someone stood up and said "This isn't okay, we need to do better than this" and got hit with a hail off reactions about how much of an asshole they are for pointing out this obvious problem. If gamers as a community can't take it when people make the slightest criticism, then we're very weak indeed.

Secondly, I don't think the only reason people trying to do what Chen does get a negative reaction is that they criticise the way games are. Any time you see someone trying to create a game with deeper meaning, greater artistic merit, or more mature themes, there's a swarm of gamers ready to descend and tell them how much of a "pretentious" asshole they are for even suggesting such a thing. People don't like change and I don't think the gaming community is exempt from this. Change one character in a fighting game or one unit in an RTS in a way they don't like and they will flip their shit, imagine what the reaction is going to be when you tell them their whole medium is going to be revolutionised. Revolutions are always chaotic. I do think to some degree people feel their medium is being attacked by people like Chen and feel this passionate need to shake off his comments, but time and time again I've seen people shit all over anyone talking about more mature video games and running and hiding from change at all costs.

@Hailinel: While Fish has certainly had his less proud moments and I don't entirely agree with Chen's views here, I think it would be going too far to say whenever they speak they never come off as anything better than condescending. Most of the time these guys speak I think they actually to talk to other people as though they are sensible, functional adults.

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

C.S. Lewis

That's all I have to say about childish things or whatever.

Just to add something to the disscusion ... what is exactly a "grown up" theme? Most of the people I know only worry about lack of money , their kids , and /or how the governments/criminal fucks up everything. Dont get me wrong tho I like my films as artsy as they come and dont mind games that does the same , just dont want a person telling me what I should like .... he should make the game and then we will see. I also agree with the notion that he who worries about being mature is in fact inmature.

Finally pegged what it is about this whole argument that kind of bugs me. There are clearly already games out there that do a good job of appealing to adults on intellectual and emotional levels, and there are games out there for people who need their mind blown by unconventional methods of controlling a character or who need something to do while stoned so that they feel like they're enlightening themselves. There are also a ton of pretty mediocre, if well made, first person shooters and cheap action games. There are complicated, in-depth RTS games, RPGs of both the W and J varieties, stories that range from the cliche and gag-inducing to dramatic, tense, unpredictable.

That's how games have kind of always been. Even back in the PS1 days you had some people making cheap entertainment, some people writing interesting stories, and some people making games where number crunching was the order of the day. The idea that now that gamers are getting older we need to demand more out of the people making their games, saying that they need to grow up and keep up with our tastes just reeks of selfishness, of wanting to take the entire hobby with us just because now we're older and aren't going to put up with the same things we did when we were kids.

It's really idiotic, because face it, there's no shortage of interesting games in the world. If Chen thinks that the right games aren't being made, let him make them- he's in the position to do so, clearly, and while he does that other people will continue to make the games they want. We live in a generation of games that's given me Catherine, Nier, Dark Souls, Xenoblade, Bayonetta, Skyward Sword, and I even played a lot of Dynasty Warriors... I'm happy. I can find the kinds of games that I like, and play them, and everyone else can as well. I don't see a problem with that at all.

I have to say I'm incredibly impressed at the level of discussion and counterpoints. It's threads like these that make me feel good about these forums. Anyway I could say a million different things about this topic from culture clash To histories of other media but it seems like others have beat me to a lot of them. What I will reiterate and what disappoints me yet again is the absence of recignizing design itself as a source of emotional or intellectual stimulation and maturity. I immediately think of Quake and how the design is so sharp and execution so fast that immersing yourself in that execution is a whole other world. Same goes for the wealth of social commentary to be mined from games like SimCity, Tropico and othern strategy games. A lot of what makes games this awe-inspiring medium is the way design, using the conduit of aesthetics, can be its own source of story or emotion. I also want my narrative driven games as well but video games for decades have been using what makes it unique to make an experience worthwhile. This is probably why narratives have been much later coming and a bit stunted but this medium can change pretty fast so I'm not worried.

@Gamer_152 said:

I disagree with you on two big issues though, the first one being that we should only show people what games could be and not criticise what they are. I think not telling people about what games could be is a mistake a lot of game pioneers make, but I don't think criticism of the industry on that scale is something they should avoid. Criticism is good, it is productive, and by no means can we not hold up something as valuable and important, while at the same time applying strict criticism. If we criticise companies and games individually and expect them to improve because of it, why can't we apply that philosophy to the whole industry? You're asking for people to create a solution to a problem without making clear what the problem even is to begin with. While I see where you're going with the restaurant/movie analogy I think it's a little off. This isn't Chen putting "Call of Duty is shit, play this instead" on the Journey cover,

hey Gamer

fair enough, I feel like I did understand you just that we still see things differently,but just let me respond so you know I thought about what you said.

think we're not still not quite on the same page although basically wanting the same thing, which is ok. that's life.

What my frustration largely is, is because I so want these sorts of changes to succeed and I feel that the way a lot if proponents go about trying to help more mature games is very counter-productive. I deal a lot with consumer market and I've seen how people make decisions. There is a very specific way people respond to things when they make decision. "Framing" is essential when presenting choices. We live in a world where "1/2 pricef" is read by more people as a better deal than "save 50%'. It is what it is.

I have no problem with criticism. As you pointed out If you don't analyze things you don't ever see ways to make things better. I just feel Chen etc are criticizing the wrong thing and also doing it in the wrong venue (there's no need to tell every new outlet that Shooters are brainless a thousand times). As I said before the problem is what isn't out there instead of what is out there. Chen and Blow (Blow very much so demonizes his competition from what I've heard him say) tend to frame their design decisions when they talk about them publicly as doing something because someone else does it wrong. That's an important but key distinction. To the listener that says hey these games are bad (and thus so are you for liking them) ,instead of saying hey look what new things we can do. That's why I think their approach gets such a negative reaction because it comes across as judgmental. They could essentially say the same thing but without upsetting people by changing how they frame it.

I think a more suitable analogy would be that we had a world where almost all restaurants were cheap chain affairs and almost all movies were actiony summer blockbusters, then someone stood up and said "This isn't okay, we need to do better than this" and got hit with a hail off reactions about how much of an asshole they are for pointing out this obvious problem. If gamers as a community can't take it when people make the slightest criticism, then we're very weak indeed.

I completely agree that is more like what the landscape in games is today. It's mostly all Olive Garden and Taco Bell out there. But I don't think that's what Blow and co are criticizing. When you name names as Blow often does (taking shots at Nintendo and Activision etc) I think he is basically blaming the existing product for preventing more thoughtful stuff from existing. Which I don't think is true. It's not like if Call of Duty was cancelled tomorrow that Activision would instead go fund 5 Braid-like games. They'd probably develop some new shooter IP instead. In the restaurant world Taco Bell is never going to offer fine dining cuisine individualized to each location using fresh local ingredients. That isn't what they do or what their customers want them to do.

It will take new people and new companies to realize the change he'd like to see.

If gamers as a community can't take it when people make the slightest criticism, then we're very weak indeed...People don't like change and I don't think the gaming community is exempt from this

FWIW I think this doesn't say anything about gamers at all other than we are people. I think the second half of what you said is more on target.

This is just human nature and how we react to things. Anytime you are entrenched in one way of doing things, you probably aren't going to like it if someone gets critical of you for doing that (right or wrong).

For example the green movement, try telling an suburbanite SUV owner that they are killing the earth by driving a vehicle that uses an excessive amount of fossil fuel and that they need to start riding the bus. Chances are you will upset them. Try telling a conservative person that Fox news is blatant propaganda, or telling a liberal that Jon Stewart isn't that funny. Or even a cigarette smoker that smoking is bad for you.

However what has worked is if you show someone that they can benefit from changing your behavior. For example since Gas is so high a lot of people now are buying much smaller more fuel efficient cars. Positivity sells, negativity does not.

People of all walks of life and all behaviors in America typically react in a similar fashion when someone is perceived to pass judgement on something they like or like to do.

That approach which Chen is using is not an effective way to change somebody's mind in my opinion. If anything it just reinforces the very behavior he wants to change.

Any time you see someone trying to create a game with deeper meaning, greater artistic merit, or more mature themes, there's a swarm of gamers ready to descend and tell them how much of a "pretentious" asshole they are for even suggesting such a thing.

You are always going to have haters when you have something new and different that is true.

But unfortunately I think Chen, Fish and Blow make the problem a lot worse for themselves by the way they frame their projects to the public.They do a million articles/pr pieces which are basically not so subtle slams on the industry and gamers. Frankly they do act judgmental and pretentious and I like their games. His games are not as deep but look at Miyamoto (or a Tim Schafer) often talk about his games vs the way Chen and Blow do, and I think you'll see what I mean. A little humility or at least an attempt at it would help their guys reps quite a bit. These guys should be beloved for their great games they put out, instead they are controversial.

Ultimately it would help get their work more exposure if they change their public personas.

Change one character in a fighting game or one unit in an RTS in a way they don't like and they will flip their shit, imagine what the reaction is going to be when you tell them their whole medium is going to be revolutionised.

That I think is more the internet making it easy to vent loudly than gamers. I doubt anything is immune to that. Everything from Politics to Grocery stores to Games now have to deal with exaggerated unfiltered instant feedback.

Revolutions are always chaotic. I do think to some degree people feel their medium is being attacked by people like Chen and feel this passionate need to shake off his comments, but time and time again I've seen people shit all over anyone talking about more mature video games and running and hiding from change at all costs.

That's fair. Some people do just suck.

anyway thanks for the discussion, even though we don't see completely eye to eye.

@Slag: Certainly framing is important if you're trying to sell something, as I've said I already I think these gaming auteurs could benefit everyone involved by better explaining what they think games could be, and I also believe there are scenarios where they could be less rude, not that people in the mainstream industry don't have a problem with a lot of what they say too (there are some things that have come out of Cliffy B's mouth which I think are far worse than anything Blow has said). That being said, I don't believe what you're talking about is just framing. Saying "Half price" instead of "50% off" is framing, saying "This is what games could be" instead of "This is what is wrong with what games are" is explicitly communicating very different ideas.

Do we want a world where game designers and those analysing the industries can be open, honest, and speak from their hearts, or do we want a world where we're so childishly scared of any substantial criticism of the industry, that game designers have to become PR people and hide what they truly think or risk being pelted with instance after instance of irrational, knee-jerk responses by people who are not even entirely sure what they're angry about? I understand that people feel their medium is being attacked, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic if the reactions were more rational, less hostile, and better thought-out. I don't think we should cater to those who can't help but make closed-minded, knee-jerk reactions.

This kind of reaction may be human nature but natural does not mean good or right, there's plenty of unnatural things which are good (medicine, vehicles, clothing, computers, video games) and plenty of natural things which are bad (violence, disease, societal oppression). Just because the SUV owner may not want to hear that they're damaging the environment, or a smoker doesn't want to hear that they're hurting themselves, or that Fox News viewers don't want to hear that the channel pumps out ridiculous propaganda, doesn't mean we shouldn't speak openly about these things. People not only have every right to be honest about these things, but to try and shelter people away from them would be insulting their intelligence. What's more disrespectful, saying to someone that you have a differing view about an entertainment medium they enjoy, or saying that you think they're so dumb and over-reactionary that you're not even going to talk to them like an adult and tell them what you believe to be obvious truths about the world?

As for the press being the wrong venue for this, I think that depends on what information the designers want to present to the press themselves, but it must also be observed that in many cases it's the press who come to the designers to try and get their genuine opinions on things. The only thing the designers could do in that situation would be to actively withhold information from the press or refuse to talk to them at all. Even if they didn't talk to the press, word of what designers like this say in venues such as GDC often makes its way to the press and when something is news for one outlet, it's often news for every outlet. To some degree I also believe Blow is right about Nintendo, Activision, and EA preventing better products existing even if that may not be entirely what he was trying to imply. I mean these are the major powers of the games industry, they're not only influential to others but they control a huge degree of the industry themselves and decide what does and does not get published. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that the way they do things is often too iterative and unoriginal, I don't think these companies should be these sacred cows impervious to critique.

I understand that change is always going to be something that there's backlash to, but I don't think that means the backlash should be shrugged off, and even considering the ability of the internet to amplify opinions, there still seems to be a sadly huge quantity of people up in arms about anyone trying to create deeper video games, no matter what comes out of their mouth. Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with being judgemental, it's a component of being critical. Every time a game critic reviews a game, they're being judgemental, every time we talk about a game, we're being judgemental, these people are just doing it on a larger scale. I don't think Blow, Fish, and Chen are as pretentious as people like to say they are and frankly it's gotten to the point where I wonder how many people even know what that word means any more, but when they are, yes, it's unfortunate, perhaps they could stand to show more humility. What I will say though is that I'd much rather see the games industry being critiqued by controversial but real human beings than photoshopped, censored versions of people fine-tuned to shift units.

I am thankful that we can have this discussion though. I think you're much more on the ball than most of the people I've seen speak on this issue, and after a lot of my recent interactions on the site it's nice to have a conversation about a controversial topic which hasn't just devolved into hostility, insults, and rule violations.

@Anwar said:

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

C.S. Lewis

That's all I have to say about childish things or whatever.

I love that quote and I live my life by it.

Look, if you want more "mature" games or movies then good for you. They're out there. Go find them. Most of us just want our entertainment media to be, y'know, entertaining and can find stimulation other places.

The bullshit is Mr Chen implying that anyone who enjoys video games, in their current state, is a child or immature or otherwise just not an adult. It is your vegan neighbor telling you you're disgusting because you eat meat. It is your crotchety uncle yelling at you for driving a foreign car. It is your college roommate rolling his eyes because you're reading Tolkien instead of Tolstoy. One person is trying to tell you that he is better than you because you do or don't do X. That is called being an asshole, not being an adult.

@Gamer_152

Hey Gamer,

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I appreciate you replying so much and I don't want to take too much of your time than i already ahve so I'll do my best to keep this short.

I'd like to live in that world that you describe too, where I differ with you is I don't think we do. Whether it be zoning meetings, product design, politics, tv script writing this sort of reaction is present everywhere now. It's a really sad negative unintended consequence of internet+social media. You talk to anybody in those field they will tell you they have to do their PR work completely differently now. A whole lot more pandering and less big chances.

I think nowhere has suffered anywhere nearly as bad as politics. What it has done to our Congress and Presidency has become very disastrous for this country. 24 hours news channels+ internet+ social media, has created these do nothing but grandstand for camera corrupt clowns.

This kind of reaction may be human nature but natural does not mean good or right

true, but it does mean powerful and thus hard to change. To change this kind of cultural behavior I suspect it would likely take 18+ years as you'd probably really have to drill into a new generation. I don't expect large groups of people past 18 to "unlearn" this kind of behavior.

What's more disrespectful, saying to someone that you have a differing view about an entertainment medium they enjoy, or saying that you think they're so dumb and over-reactionary that you're not even going to talk to them like an adult and tell them what you believe to be obvious truths about the world?

FWIW I think there's a big difference in how to successfully get people to listen to you when you are talking to an audience vs. talking to a person one on one. One on one I think you can be straight up with people and have a chance depending on the listener. Once you start public speaking though, it's a whole another ballgame. Framing things from the positive point of view is not lieing to people (or insulting their intelligence) as you still are getting the same points across, but you do have to change your delivery method if you want your audience to give you a chance.

I'm not saying Blow shouldn't be judgmental in his head or in private about his competitors (because hey you do want to do something/better etc), I just don't think it does him any favors to do so in public.

I notice the Giant Bomb rarely ever rips on competing sites like IGN etc. I think that's smart on their part.

I don't think Blow, Fish, and Chen are as pretentious as people like to say they are

Oh I bet you are 100% right, but I do think their public personas come across that way. And I suspect that may be a deliberate decision on their part to try to stand out from the crowd. It's certainly the reason why I know who they are. Chances are I would have played Chen's games anyway, but I don't have an Xbox360 so I doubt I would have ever noticed Braid or Fez.

I think you're much more on the ball than most of the people I've seen speak on this issue, and after a lot of my recent interactions on the site it's nice to have a conversation about a controversial topic which hasn't just devolved into hostility, insults, and rule violations.

Thanks! I've read several of your blogs and notice how much thought you put into them.

Yeah I don't envy any of you mods right now. The community seems to be going through a stressful period of late (the CBS thing + all the uncertianty taht comes with it)which I'm sure manifests itself in ways you guys have to deal with. Hopefully things will calm down for you guys once the site gets relaunched and the future of what GB will be becomes more clear.

To switch gears for a sec and focus on how we actually achieve the desired result for a sec, FWIW here are some things I think need to happen to make that a reality

-the public needs to continue to kickstart indie projects that aspire to those goals. And also form groups to lobby the big guys to try to get more of these projects funded. If we can demonstrate that they are willing to pay for these games, somebody will make them. There just needs to be someone on the inside who listens.

-There needs to be new publishers and/or arms of publishers that are basically "arthouse" game lines. E.g. EA could create a subsidiary called EArt (just making something up) like they did with their EA Sports line. So that anytime a consumer sees that they may not recognize the IP, but they will understand what it's trying to be. I think it would behoove one of the big three Console makers to subsidize this kind of game to differentiate themselves from the others.

-Downloadable stores need to be easier to navigate and smarter at communicating great games to customers- The way they are now it's easy for games by any creator to get buried/never noticed.

-games in this niche, should put lead designers/teams on the box cover/promotional material. More adult content is usually not as iterative, but people do have favorite creators they like to follow. E.g. in the film world Spike Lee.

-We need more developers who are willing to take this gamble and make the content itself

Honestly I'm optimistic. I think somebody is going to notice the success of Journey etc and see the dollar signs. The market for these kinds of games is there.