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    Mass Effect 2

    Game » consists of 21 releases. Released Jan 26, 2010

    After a violent death by an unknown force and a timely reanimation by the human supremacist organization Cerberus, Commander Shepard must assemble a new squad in the seedier side of the galaxy for a suicide mission in the second installment of the "Mass Effect" trilogy.

    How do you feel about the Krogran Genophage? (Mass Effect 2 Poll)

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    Chocobodude3

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    #51  Edited By Chocobodude3
    @natetodamax: The extinction of an entire species will negatively affect the whole galaxy or universe 
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    TheMustacheHero

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    #52  Edited By TheMustacheHero

    The less Krogan the better.

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    TaliciaDragonsong

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    B.
     
    But I'll put them down myself if need be.
    Here's hoping Wrex can handle things.

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    tourgen

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    #54  Edited By tourgen

    Until some other options exists the genophage is an absolutely morally sound and necessary requirement.
     
    I would hope a better solution could be found though.
     
    Sometimes things just suck all around.

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    Tennmuerti

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    #55  Edited By Tennmuerti

    B. Renegade

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    LordXavierBritish

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    OmegaChosen

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    #57  Edited By OmegaChosen

    Reducing the krogan's insane birth rate is perfectly fine and was necessary at the time and probably still is until they get themselves in line. However, the way the genophage works is why I'm against it. The salarians and turians just say that it reduces the krogan birth rate; they neglect to mention most of the time that it doesn't lower fertility, it makes the embryos not develop nervous systems, resulting in clutches full of stillbirths. The thought of a krogan getting pregnant and wading through the eggs(I'm assuming they lay eggs but I may be wrong), hoping against all odds that one of them makes it only to have every last one be a lifeless husk is horrendous if you ask me.
     
    Logically and scientifically it makes sense but to see (or at least hear) what it does in person drives home the fact it is something that must be stopped.

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    Kyreo

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    #58  Edited By Kyreo

    Buncha Nazis up in this bitch...

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    CL60

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    #59  Edited By CL60

    Pro, it was necessary, and makes sense why they did it. Mordin made a very strong case. 

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    MikkaQ

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    #60  Edited By MikkaQ

    I think we'll need the krogan again for fighting the Reapers, so the salarians shot themselves in the foot, there. I think it's morally bad, but sometimes morally awful things restore the balance as the genophage did. I'm about as split as mordin. I guess it's necessarily but also something worth regretting, and they need compensation, too.

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    No0b0rAmA

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    #61  Edited By No0b0rAmA

    I am pro genophage. It was for the sake of the rest of the galaxy. He did what he had to do.

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    mazik765

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    #62  Edited By mazik765
    @SoylentGreen said:
    " Hitler, the Holocaust, and the Nazis.  There; now that Godwin's Law has been invoked, this discussion can continue unabated.  I voted C. The genophage was genocide, no matter which way you put it. I realize that it may have been the only option at the time, but there's no way I could ever support anything like it. "
    Actually it's made pretty clear during Mordin's loyalty mission that the only reason he helped in creating the genophage was to avoid a genocide against the Krogans. It was either reduce their ability to spread or have the other races be forced to take similar actions that they took against the Rachni. 
     
    Also, Mass Effect lore is awesome.
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    TheSeductiveMoose

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    It's uncool, brah.

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    Venatio

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    #64  Edited By Venatio

    Really tough to decide this, I know it's just a videogame but I have thought alot about this exact subject
     
    I see both the pros and cons of the genophage, but no matter how much thought I put into it I always come out on the side of being against it
     
    Sure, the galaxy started fearing how fast the Krogan would multiply and maybe become a threat after being granted off world technology but damn it, they fought and won against the rachni when no one else could and they deserved some props for it. Instead an act of of genocide was unleashed on their people, causing even more chaos with the Krogans, dividing them as a people and eventually leading to the destruction of Tuchanka, I mean seriously, have you seen that planet?
     
    I understand why it was done but it's still wrong, the council and the salarians made a mistake, the krogans are a proud and strong people consisting of warriors, but the genophage has almost eradicated them from the galaxy
     
    /nerd

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    CL60

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    #65  Edited By CL60

    A lot of you are forgetting the fact that if the genophage wasn't unleashed, the Krogans most likely would have taken over the Galaxy. They were multiplying at a crazy rate, and were incredibly aggressive which started their rebellion. The salarians gave them the technology and they abused it by being aggressive, and them multiplying at an alarming rate only made matters worse. The only option was to either completely kill them all(Which would have been simple according to Mordin) But they didn't want another species to go extinct. So the only other logical thing to do was to make it so only 1 out of 1000 of them survive, which evens out the population. 
     
    So it was either kill them all, or even out the population so they can't completely overrun the galaxy with their aggressive behavior. The Salarians chose the best thing to do. 
     
    EDIT: Also I don't see why some of you think the genophage caused Tuchanka to be the way it is. It would be like that regardless. Something Mordin explains to you. The cause was once again, Krogans being aggressive when they got technology.

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    deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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    I've been confused as to whether the genophage is a sterility plague or a stillborn plague.  Most other races describe it as a sterility plague, preventing pregnancy in even fertile female... but krogan (granted, mostly disreputable) have claimed that pregnancy happens, but not live birth.
     
    I'm fine with a sterility plague, there's nothing wrong with that.  Returns them to pre-uplift levels.  Stillbirth plague makes me morally uncomfortable, but as a Renegade, I'd make the difficult moral choice to protect the galaxy from krogan aggression.
     
    @Venatio said:

    dividing them as a people and eventually leading to the destruction of Tuchanka, I mean seriously, have you seen that planet?


    Dude, they destroyed Tuchanka before they discovered space flight.  Literally imagine if we had nuked ourselves into oblivion in 1950, aliens can't be blamed for it.  Tuchanka was a crapsack predatory death world before salarians ever stumbled on it.
     
     
     
    Also, and this seems to be something people are forgetting, is that Mordin didn't create the genophage.  The genophage was created 1500 years ago, Mordin is only 30.  Mordin's work with the STG was merely modifying the genophage to prevent krogan adaptation.
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    deactivated-5c7ea8553cb72

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    @Soapy86 said:
    " Definitely pro genophage.   I feel like Mordin made the case that it was unquestionably the right thing to do.  "
    I agree. It was evil, but it was also necessary so I choose A.
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    ryanwho

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    #68  Edited By ryanwho

    Why do I feel like the people who are pro eugenics wouldn't exist if eugenics existed.

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    bybeach

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    #69  Edited By bybeach
    @OmegaChosen said:
    "Reducing the krogan's insane birth rate is perfectly fine and was necessary at the time and probably still is until they get themselves in line. However, the way the genophage works is why I'm against it. The salarians and turians just say that it reduces the krogan birth rate; they neglect to mention most of the time that it doesn't lower fertility, it makes the embryos not develop nervous systems, resulting in clutches full of stillbirths. The thought of a krogan getting pregnant and wading through the eggs(I'm assuming they lay eggs but I may be wrong), hoping against all odds that one of them makes it only to have every last one be a lifeless husk is horrendous if you ask me.  Logically and scientifically it makes sense but to see (or at least hear) what it does in person drives home the fact it is something that must be stopped. "


    The stillbirth aspect if true,is the only thing that bothers me. that would  call for B instead of A. Unfortunatly B doesn't state the Krogan will modify their behavior, only that they will help at the present. Still if I could trade still birth for controlled birth, or much better, an adjustment of Krogan behavior towards the other species, that would work. I havn't voted yet, I'll think about it. 
     
    How the genophage works is extremly important, for it is a last resort measure if there ever was one, short of accomplished genocide.
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    FLStyle

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    #70  Edited By FLStyle

    I am pro-Genophage all the way.
     
    The universe is saved from Krogran slaughter and the Krograns themselves are still kicking. Not exactly win-win but as Mordin pointed out it would've been a lot easier to make the entire species sterile but the scientists put the hard work into making sure that didn't happen and that genocide was avoided.

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    emem

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    #71  Edited By emem

    Well, basically saying "pro-genophage" is saying "pro-genocide", but knowing what the outcome would be if the Krogan were allowed to breed without limitations.. it's an impossible decision. Having said that, I'm afraid genophage would be a (temporary) necessary evil to save "everyone". 
     
    I already see Blizzard stealing this part for Starcraft, maybe they will borrow Mordin to create a "one in a million" genophage weapon for/against the Zerg?

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    dragonzord

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    #72  Edited By dragonzord

    Grunt and Wrex are the two biggest bros around. All other Krogans seem to be dicks, except that one old one. 
     
    Plus if there were tons of Krogans running around it would make the few that appear way less badass. Also make a genophage for Turians, ALL of them are dickheads except Garrus. But I think there's even a convo with Garrus where he says how he's not even remotely like any Turian he knows.  I also say this because Salarians are my favorite race since ME1.

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    Meowshi

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    #73  Edited By Meowshi
    @ryanwho said:
    " Why do I feel like the people who are pro eugenics wouldn't exist if eugenics existed. "
    This is a good post.
     
    You are pretty okay when we're not talking about PCs.
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    haggis

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    #74  Edited By haggis
    @emem said:
    " Well, basically saying "pro-genophage" is saying "pro-genocide"...
    But that's precisely not what the genophage was, at least according to Mass Effect 2. And this is why I was so disappointed in how ME2 dealt with the genophage issue. By making it about population control rather than explicitly about destroying the Krogan, they made the ethical problem mostly disappear. To liken the genophage to genocide is like equating condom usage (or, perhaps more appropriately, abortion) with genocide. That's simply not a fair characterization.
     
    The real moral question surrounding this is not what was done, but that it was forced upon the Krogan. To not impose such a limitation on the Krogan would have resulted in many more deaths than the genophage actually imposed. We have to weigh the decline of Krogan culture against the destruction they would have wrought on countless other cultures.
     
    Mordin's arguments on this were devastatingly effective. Too effective, I think. It basically eliminated any legitimate moral opposition to the genophage. To oppose the genophage would be to prefer massive, destructive galaxy-wide war to localized birth control. Mordin was right. I actually preferred things to be a bit murkier than they wound up.
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    s7evn

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    #75  Edited By s7evn

    Pro-genophage. It had to be done, the Krogan had become a threat to every species in existence.

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    emem

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    #76  Edited By emem
    @haggis: I know exactly what you mean and I also think it's been the only logical way to deal with the krogan, but that doesn't make it "right".  
     
    It's a crazy topic.. to me it feels like forced birth/population control the way it happens with the genophage virus is some sort of genocide. And of course you could also argue that it is exactly what we are doing to ourselfs.. you know what I mean. Maybe that's going too deep for a game discussion, though. :)
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    haggis

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    #77  Edited By haggis
    @emem: You're confusing what genocide is, then. There was no intention of wiping out the Krogan. And in fact, they didn't wipe out the Krogan. And the Krogan were in no real danger of killing themselves off. So the whole question of genocide is really off the table. I would have preferred it for the sake of the story that someone on the Salarian team actually actually intended genocide. It would make the whole question more interesting. Right now, since there was never any intention of killing off the Krogan, the moral question is much easier: was it right for the Salarians to impose their population control solution the way they did (which was not  genocide). I can't think of a single convincing argument that what they did wasn't justified.
     
    I've done a lot of work on genocide issues, from the Holocaust to Sudan to Rwanda. I've written about it, interviewed a lot of people on the topic, and done some human rights advocacy. So I feel pretty strongly about what does and does not constitute genocide. I know people disagree, and I understand that. But I thought that the approach the writers took in ME2 killed the moral discussion, making it look like Mordin's approach was somehow the "renegade" response, when in fact it was a highly principled anti-genocide stand. It would have been easy to stand by and do nothing and leave a lot of people dead. And it would have been easy to simply kill off the Krogan. Mordin's position was far more nuanced and moral than the other two options. The handling of the argument in the game left me ... unsatisfied. All the more so because this sort of question is so damned rare in games. Perhaps the writers were trying to tell us that the "paragon" position is sometimes itself morally questionable. But it felt completely wrong in the game to get renegade points for taking Mordin's side.
     
    But that's the nature of these games that try to incorporate moral questions. People aren't necessarily going to like the way the developers play things out. All the more reason, I think, to abandon a black/white moral scheme and move to something a bit more complicated and, I think, realistic.
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    emem

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    #78  Edited By emem
    @haggis: How do you define genocide? Doesn't forcing 999 out of 1000 "potential" children to die look like passively (but willingly) killing off specific parts of a group/race? I'm not even sure I think that way, I'm just asking.. it's a very interesting topic for a discussion, but maybe a bit "heavy" for a game discussion.
     
    Back to ME2: I think it was pretty obvious that agreeing with Mordin would be the "renegade" choice, because when there clearly is no way to make the situation look good, they want you to go and find the most humane way, not the most logical way. Mordin said that what he did to the krogan was the right thing to do, but only because he didn't see another way to handle it. He still thinks he did something bad and he's right about that. The "paragon" position was telling him exactly that and it makes sense to me.
     
    I don't think I've ever played a game that doesn't have the "wrong or right" part, depending on whether you are good or evil, and I'm pretty sure that would be too complicated for someone who just wants to play a game. 
     
    PS: My english is bad, I hope it's understandable. :)
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    JB16

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    #79  Edited By JB16
    @Venatio said:
    " Really tough to decide this, I know it's just a videogame but I have thought alot about this exact subject  I see both the pros and cons of the genophage, but no matter how much thought I put into it I always come out on the side of being against it  Sure, the galaxy started fearing how fast the Krogan would multiply and maybe become a threat after being granted off world technology but damn it, they fought and won against the rachni when no one else could and they deserved some props for it. Instead an act of of genocide was unleashed on their people, causing even more chaos with the Krogans, dividing them as a people and eventually leading to the destruction of Tuchanka, I mean seriously, have you seen that planet?  I understand why it was done but it's still wrong, the council and the salarians made a mistake, the krogans are a proud and strong people consisting of warriors, but the genophage has almost eradicated them from the galaxy  /nerd "
    You fail to mention that after the Rachni war the Krogan began attacking other colonies and conquering system after system. They refused all diplomatic solutions for peace and continued a meaningless campaign of conquest against all races in the galaxy. As far as I'm concerned the genophage saved the galaxy.
    @s7evn said:

    " Pro-genophage. It had to be done, the Krogan had become a threat to every species in existence. "

    This, anyone who's against the genophage seems to forget that the Krogan breeded at an alarmingly fast rate and threatened the existence and sovereignty of every species in the galaxy. It had to be done.
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    jkz

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    #80  Edited By jkz

    Shepard. 
     
    Anti-Genophage.

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    ryanwho

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    #81  Edited By ryanwho

    Krogan were trouble according to the victors of the war. That tends to be the case. The people who committed atrocities justified their actions. This tends to be the case. Because Ron Perlman never changes.

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    haggis

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    #82  Edited By haggis
    @emem said:

    " @haggis: How do you define genocide? Doesn't forcing 999 out of 1000 "potential" children to die look like passively (but willingly) killing off specific parts of a group/race? I'm not even sure I think that way, I'm just asking.. it's a very interesting topic for a discussion, but maybe a bit "heavy" for a game discussion. Back to ME2: I think it was pretty obvious that agreeing with Mordin would be the "renegade" choice, because when there clearly is no way to make the situation look good, they want you to go and find the most humane way, not the most logical way. Mordin said that what he did to the krogan was the right thing to do, but only because he didn't see another way to handle it. He still thinks he did something bad and he's right about that. The "paragon" position was telling him exactly that and it makes sense to me. I don't think I've ever played a game that doesn't have the "wrong or right" part, depending on whether you are good or evil, and I'm pretty sure that would be too complicated for someone who just wants to play a game.  PS: My english is bad, I hope it's understandable. :) "

    According to Webster, genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group" (emphasis mine). This is pretty much how it is understood by everyone. In ME2, it is revealed that the genophage was neither a deliberate nor a systematic attempt at destroying the Krogan. Therefore, not genocide. And it bothers me that some people "feel" that it is, since there have been very public and very real attempts at genocide. When we define it down and include things that are very clearly not genocide as genocide, I think we distort the moral questions involved.
     
    "...they want you to go and find the most humane way, not the most logical way."
     
    That's my point. The more "humane" way according to the game's writers was to let the Krogan run roughshod over dozens of other cultures, killing billions. Almost certainly killing more people than the genophage killed, and in the process destroying a good number of other civilizations along the way and dumping the entire galaxy into chaos. In other words, I find the "renegade" option far, far more humane than the "paragon" approach. The only virtue in the "paragon" approach is that, perhaps, the main character might feel better about themselves in the morning. But that's cold comfort to the billions who would have died as a result.
     
    To say Mordin thinks he did something bad is also not quite right. He clearly knows that it was unfortunate. But being unfortunate is not the same as being bad. If he really thought the genophage was bad or wrong, he wouldn't have done it. He very clearly says it was the right thing to do. He wishes he didn't have to do it, but he has no qualms about it. If there is anything he thinks was "wrong" about the situation, it was the Salarian "uplift" of the Krogans. And his actions are the result of that action which, as far as we know, had nothing to do with him. His reticence in talking about it has more to do with how he knows he will be perceived than any guilt he has over doing it. Mordin is proud of the way he handled the situation. He didn't like it and doesn't want to dwell on it, but he certainly didn't think he did anything bad. If he did, he'd show guilt. He never does, even when "paragon" Shepard is badgering him about it.
     
    As far as the game mechanics go, I guess I would have been happier if the developers had recognized this problem and awarded neither paragon nor renegade points for the decisions, thereby admitting that there were "paragon" and "renegade" aspects to both decisions. I think that a number of moral decisions in the game weren't black and white. But by sticking to a simplistic binary classification, they basically undermined the potential moral conflict. This debate is a good reason why developers should avoid binary moral choice mechanics like the plague. They knew what they were doing: creating an ambiguous moral situation. It just bugs me a bit that they didn't create a gameplay mechanic sophisticated enough to match the situation.
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    bybeach

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    #83  Edited By bybeach
    @haggis said:

    " @emem: You're confusing what genocide is, then. There was no intention of wiping out the Krogan. And in fact, they didn't wipe out the Krogan. And the Krogan were in no real danger of killing themselves off. So the whole question of genocide is really off the table. I would have preferred it for the sake of the story that someone on the Salarian team actually actually intended genocide. It would make the whole question more interesting."  
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     I think the issue may be more that the Krogan were claiming their clutches were still-born. This could be viewed as more controversial if either the babies were dying before birth, or if not regarded as alive in the egg or whatever, were causing great emotional tauma upon the parents when viewing their lifless but developed children. This as oppossed to enforced stirility that would only allow 1 in 1/1000. 
     
    But if this was not the issue, then I would agree with the statement above.

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    Fenrisulfr

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    #84  Edited By Fenrisulfr

    I'd cure the genophage if I needed the Krogan's numbers in a war.  I'd also use the Rachni since I freed the Queen on Feros. 
     
    After the war, I'd reinstate the genophage to lower the Krogan's numbers.  I'll use them like my own race of attack dogs.  The Krogan are only useful when something needs to die and a lot of people/things on my side are going to die.  If I need bodies, I'll know where to find them. 
     
    I did the same with Legion's loyalty mission.  I reprogrammed the heretic Geth only to have more bodies for the up coming war.  Right and wrong had nothing to do with it.  I do good deeds, but that's to get people to like me so I can make them do suicidal things and they'll be cool with it.

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    emem

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    #85  Edited By emem
    @bybeach: That's one of the points, does it have to be "visible" from the outsise to be called murder?  
     

    @haggis:

     Yep, I'm not really sure about the definition of genocide, that's my problem. I think you are right when I see it your way, but saying all they were doing was "birth control" does sound wrong. 
     
    When I read the definition I'm always wondering if you can't call a "racial group" a "specific number" of people of a race: 
      
    The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

    1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

    2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

     
    (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
     You do seem to have the knowledge and I'm not sure about it, so you are probably right. I'm still wondering if saying all they were doing was birth/population control is all it was. 
     
    Hmm I think Mordin does show guilt. He is proud that he somehow managed to keep the krogan at bay, but he is not proud of what he had to do to make it happen. When you pretty much make him keep the not even half done formula to reverse the genophage he agrees that it might be the right thing to do one day, as far as I remember. Wouldn't you agree that there should be another way to deal with the krogan without killing/decimating them? I think it's the conclusion of his sidestory, always try to find a way without harming people. 
     
    Let's say what happens through the genophage virus is not genocide, what would you call it, mass murder of 99.99% of a race? Is forcefully preventing children of a whole race to be born (or born alive) murder?
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    sickVisionz

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    #86  Edited By sickVisionz

    Attempted genocide is never the ideal answer imo.  If they had made it so that Krogan males had low fertility rates and had a hard time getting women pregnant, that'd be one thing, but didn't they do it in a way where it just meant the women gave birth to still born babies or had miscarriages?  Salarians are super geniuses, they could have gone about it in a more humane way than what they did but they chose like the most gruesome method possible.
     
    I was upset that on Moridin's mission you didn't have an option to support his friend.  Your only options were various degrees of doing what Moridin wanted, which was different than all the other ones.

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    TaliciaDragonsong

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    We just can't forget that Krogans are, overall, assholes.
    Sure its kinda evil from the Salarians but have you tried reasoning with most Krogan? I have, and it always led to gunfights, they are not a reasonable people.
    They live to fight, they die because they fight, they live to die basically, and everything in their culture supports that.
     
    In time, with leaders like Wrex, they might cool down a little and focus their rage on better things then themselves/other species but if Krogan's breed insanely fast like stated then the Genophage was justified, the game would have been called Krogan Effect otherwise since they'd bloody overrun everyone.
     
    I'd still cure it as I said before tho, we're gonna need them.
    And then I'll take em all out myself, suicide mission 2.0!

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    TorMasturba

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    #88  Edited By TorMasturba

    I'm against it, but I undertand and believe it had to happen.  
    Under all the rage against how "cowardly" the Krogan seem to believe the Genophage was as an attack. They seem to have learned that even with all the strength and numbers they had in fighting wars, they can be simply brought down by a complicated rearrangement of genes. 
     
    Which would definitely give them cause to be less trigger-happy in future. 
    If the Genophage is cured I wouldn't care for the moral side of giving the Krogan their full breeding capabilities back, I'd still limit that, but I'd make their race breeding  ability a sustainable one not a strategic, rapidly expanding nation, type of one.

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    GrandHarrier

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    #89  Edited By GrandHarrier
    @SoylentGreen:  Actually the birthrate was adjusted to keep the Krogan population stable. The Salarians would have accounted for the tendancy for the warlike Krogan to die in battle and have enough births to offset that additional death rate.

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