This seems like good intentions expressed in a less-than-completely thought out way.

Or, cynically, a less-than-thorough targeted marketing effort.

I imagine that, so long as it's a discussion on the issues themselves, and any actual games/developers involved with it can still have a thing on the main floor, there should be no problems. Probably. Although, I would be much less hesitant if they simultaneously announced enforcer efforts to make the space a little less hostile to thems diversities folks.

Unless they force anyone who is not a straight white male into this area, I don't see how it is any different from other lounges (aside from the terrible name.) They just need to rename it to Lounge #4 and BAM! problem solved. It would function as any other lounge but not offend everybody.

The name is really what is killing them more than anything else about this, yeah.

I just have this terrible image of a dude dressed in a dickwolves costume telling Mike to pick up the binder as Mike sweats profusely.

I wish GB still go to pax. The panels are always great.

@brodehouse: I wish we were all extremely wealthy "comedians", so we too would have an army of defenders crying out "FREE SPEECH", "BULLIES", "IT'S JUST A JOKE"...and "CENSORSHIP".

That you approach this as a matter of class warfare and not the advocacy of fair treatment for everyone is telling.

@brodehouse: I don't think a poor, unknown comedian would be able to build up such a fierce, musky fleet of free speech guardians.

I just don't fucking understand. What happened? When did the internet turn on Penny Arcade? They made mistakes sure, but it seems like sites what to criticize every move they make.

This is clearly not a "segregation area." It's a goddamn convention. Do we say the indie mega booth is a segregated area to keep those goddamn indies away from our mainstream games? People gather at cons at places that interest them. I know I hover around indie game areas. This sounds just like a place at the con dedicated to promote diversity.

Also, I've can't find a place in the Penny Arcade document that calls it a diversity lounge. It's the "Roll for Diversity Hub and Lounge" It sound more like a hub then a lounge from the description. Typically, when you use quotes ("") it's because you are quote something someone else said, not making something up.

I'm unaware at your larger thrust beyond being personally unpleasant towards me. You have successfully declared them to be successful comedians, that doesn't actually deal with the situation or present any sort of argument or evidence. It sounds you're suggesting since they're so wealthy and powerfu they don't need fairness, they don't deserve it. Which is exactly how you Other someone. There's a reason why bigots make gay people sound so threatening and dangerous.

@koolaid: Sensible people started to turn on them when they used their enormous power and rabid fanbase to crush a lone individual under their heel.

Yes. Keep those filthy indies in the Desuras, where they belong.

Isn't this kind of perfect? Maybe this will allow those weird people a place to annoy each other, instead of us!

@mc_hify: Best response for this right here, everyone calm the fuck down and read what the release says and use that fucking muscle between your ears.

@brodehouse: How is this not fair? Most of the mean ol' journalists and FEMINISTS on twitter were just making jokes and poking fun at the name and concept, seems pretty tame and innocent.

What they need more than anything is a Utilikilt Lounge so that we don't have to be around those people

lol Penny Arcade

People gathering on twitter to send mean-spirited jokes at the expense of someone else because they made an area of their event focused on social justice issues. This is tame and innocent in this case I'm told, because the people who made an area of their event focused on social justice issues live comfortably and are upper-middle class.

If everyone could just keep their diversity to this one room in the back that'd be great. That's the area is okay to be diverse, the rest of this convention is white male nerds only please.

Where's a corral to stick the Jews, coloreds, and Chinamen, when us God-fearing white folk go about our conning business?

But not the Irish. They're not even allowed in the building.

Finally, a place where white cis-gendered hetrosexual males (The dude bro shooters of humanity if you will) can be cushioned from all this diversity.

@brodehouse: I think it has more to do with them being completely tone deaf every step of the way with this stuff than it has to do with them being "upper middle class." People have tried to explain how they're fucking up so many times to them and they just don't seem to get it.

DIVERSE PEOPLE ONLY!
All non-diverse people please use the toilets in the main hall.

Y'know, it almost seems like you're throwing subliminals at Patrick here.

Nah, can't be. A mod wouldn't be passive aggressive to the staff. That would be improper.

Actually, it seemed like Mike Krahulik had to learn the difference between gender and sex publicly, and the reason why we get mature people to teach the ignorant is because they don't hold the student in moral disdain because they didn't happen to know something before hand. When I learned the difference between gender and sex, I got to read a Wikipedia article quietly. When Mike Krahulik learned it, he was called a bigot for not already being aware of something that was never taught to him. And no, the difference between gender and sex is not entirely self-evident or common sense, otherwise it would not require being explained ever.

Furthermore, as to your claim of "they just don't seem to get it", there is a public conversation where Mike Krahulik very clearly 'got it'. These things where they are "fucking up" are exactly the kind of conspicuously inclusive actions that their detractors wanted them to make in the first place. I don't think this has anything to do with them "not getting it", I think this is a steadfast refusal to accept an apology.

I think it is incredibly uncharitable to call someone a bigot, and when they apologize and install exactly the kind of policies and features that would prove how apologetic they are, they're called double-bigots for ... having been guilty in the first place. Sounds like they just got 5 years added to their sentence for good behavior.

He could be joking but i am on #TeamMB regardless.

@avantegardener:

Because white heterosexual males can't become competent in diversity? Is it the bro shooter part that suggests this inability? I've liked COD before? Am I incapable of understanding diversity then? I also like sports, am Caucasian, and straight. So am I just totally screwed? Guess I shouldn't be a mental health therapist anymore.

Fuck that, #TeamMattyFTM all day, mother scratcher.

@brodehouse: I mean, that's not exactly what happened. The initial problems that people had with Mike wasn't just his ignorance but his willful ignorance. I don't think there's anything wrong with just saying "hey, I don't know about this topic. I'm not educated about it." Would he have still been attacked for that? Maybe, I don't know but it's irrelevant because that's not what happened. He showed an unwillingness to actually learn why what he was saying is wrong and then, eventually he did apologize. But even after that, he still went back to the shit that pissed everyone off in the first place, like bringing up the Dickwolves thing again at PAX this year.

Again, I do think his heart is in the right place here. But the execution is so incredibly botched that it's hard to take them seriously.

lol

The actual text from Penny Arcade just makes it sound like a learning center, somewhat like the type of LGBT office you'd find in most universities. I'm not sure where all this segregation talk is coming from. A resource for learning about these issues sounds like a good idea.

@catsakimbo said:

It comes from over-privileged Social Justice Warriors who have nothing better to do with their time than sit on the Internet and cry foul over anything that could even remotely possibly be misconstrued as politically incorrect.

Hence all the mouth-breathers talking about segregation in this topic. They're so desperate to be mad at Penny Arcade that they can't recognize they've descended into self-parody.

Did any of you guys actually read the document, or are you just taking others word for it? Because from what I'm reading, it just sounds like a place to go to for information on diversity in the gaming world and issues relating to it. If a company wants to set up a booth there, they need to have a product or service already out in the main expo hall, so it's not like it separating diverse devs from non-diverse devs. It's not the greatest step, but for a gaming culture where sexism and other such issues are still a really big deal, I think it was a proper step in the right direction regardless.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the controversy cause I'm a straight white male, so can someone please fill me in?

Great. More overly-sensitive people getting offended by dumb shit that doesn't really matter.

Want to stop this sort of thing from being an issue? Stop making it an issue.

Offended? Good. I'm offended by you being offended.

@milkman: I find the combining of the Dickwolves controversy (one centered around the ethical concerns of dark comedy/gallows humor) and the "I'm pretty sure women have vaginas" controversy (one centered around Mike Krahulik not knowing that gender and sex are different things) to be demonstrably fallacious. They are two different arguments made on two different topics, to combine them is political in nature and not rationally justified. This is like saying that since a political party is wrong or right about agricultural spending, we should view their proposal of tort reform with a hairy eyeball. It's how you turn an argument about a subject into a referendum of suspicions.

Furthermore, his "willful ignorance" lasted exactly until someone approached him with instruction rather than condemnation. The person literally said that they don't see themselves as being a part of that mob, because the mob's anger precedes their desire to see things improve. And then after a short discussion, he apologized. You suggest that I should hold him in moral contempt because he didn't immediately change his mind when presented with a torrent of abuse, even in the noblest of intentions, but I just don't think that's a reasonable expectation of another person.

Getting a little pedagogical, everyone you know is ignorant about something, and so are you. We accept that there are very understandable reasons for people being ignorant; one may be ignorant from the absence of information or from the presence of misinformation. A reasonable person does not hold someone in contempt for it. I understand why someone lacks information and has misinformation. Until a person rejects a logical scenario which entails the denial of their proposition, without further inquiry, I see no reason to hold someone in moral disdain for not knowing something. Furthermore, we accept that overwriting an old understanding of reality with a new one is naturally dissonant, and the best way to do so is a sober application of solid, objective evidence and logic. I probably could make you understand that 2+2=4 if I repeatedly call you a stupid dogfucker every time you return an answer that is not 2+2=4, but it would be far better if I explained why 2+2=4 through reason. When you teach someone, you should expect they would say "well what if..?" because they are attempting to understand how it applies in the universal sense, they are testing cases. People asking "what if" is not the process of refusing to learn, it is literally how learning works.

edit: Someone compared this to LGBT centers in university, and they are quite apt. There is an LGBTT* (which means Two-Spirit, which as I understand it is a gender identity only available to indigenous Canadians) office in my university that I walk by every day and check out if there's any of those Ally Training workshops. I'll say this about "the SJW movement" or whatever you want to call this cultural zeitgeist; they've made being comfortable around LGBT people something I can actually get preferential treatment for in the hiring process. It's amazing what a stupid certificate that means I understand other people are people too can do.

@jasonr86: Sorry for the satire, it won't happen again.

What happened is a flammatory thread title with a flavored original post, Milkman and a terribly named lounge. PA doesn't have the best track record when it comes to not offending people, so it's easier to pick on them now with an angry internet mob behind your back. To be fair, the wording they selling this thing with is not the best but so far the majority of the responses are unnecessarily overreacting. Reading the comments, you could think PA wants to build a ghetto or something.

Sorry, but I can't tell if you're just being sarcastic or you mean it.

@brodehouse: Of course! It's tame and innocent, just like repeatedly taunting rape victims, denying the existence of transgendered people and utterly destroying someone's life is tame and innocent. It's just comedy, bro, not bullying.

You appear to be agreeing with the point that you missed. It's difficult to tell through the sarcasm.

Sorry, I'm gonna duck out now. I want to enjoy a day off with some video games and not debate ethics all day. It's intellectually stimulating but so is a dissertation on the evolution of transportation infrastructure in early 1900s America and I'd rather punch Nazi Russians in the face.

So is Penny Arcade still Mike, Jerry, and Robert making all of the main decisions, and everyone else is just kind of glad to be there?

I know a ton of people do not work there except for a few dozen -- maybe? -- but I would think at least someone would think this wasn't the best idea. Either that or everyone keeps their head to the ground.

@avantegardener:

Apology accepted.

When I think diversity, I think blacks on blondes.

I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but at some point along the way Penny Arcade became really old and out of touch

Bottom line is if you make a convention with the original mission statement of being inclusive, do something that severely damages the perception of your commitment to that goal, the worst thing you can do is give the appearance of only part of the space now being inclusive. It does not matter at all whether the experience in that area is on the level or not. Its' existence alone reinforces the perception likely unintentionally that the rest of the convention is in fact not inclusive. It is a tacit admission that perhaps PAX was never truly inclusive before. Whether that is true or not true that is how it comes across. That's PR 101.

e.g. imagine if a business that serves the public everyday like a big box retailer did something that made them seem intolerant to a gender, religion, sexual orientation or racial group. Do you think it would be a good idea for them to dedicate a small part of their store to products aimed at said group with its' own staffing and call it as such? Or how about a movie theater dedicating one of their screens to said group?

I'm not sure who is advising Penny Arcade these days, but it may be time for a change. They are messing up some really basic things despite probable good intentions.

So is this where they'll exile the Dickwolves? Or is it a place of safe harbor from the Dickwolves? Or are the Dickwolves just a made-up myth, and this is the place where this myth gets debunked?

This is a dickwolves topic? Jeez - I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but you realize that you're trying to fight bigotry by being incredibly bigoted yourself, right?

You refuse to actually engage in conversation by dodging facts and other peoples points, throwing up straw men at every turn, and insulting anyone trying to engage with you.

I always expect you to argue on the side of helping people, and you do. The side that, surprise, I'm also on! But you do it through such willful ignorance and hate, that you've become just another one of those blathering trolls that you argue against so viciously. Your core feelings are usually the right ones, but duder, you're just making everything worse.

More videogame industry par for the course as far as I'm concerned.

The fact that this community will praise Klepek's ridiculous articles while condemning Penny Arcade's ridiculous actions tells me that there is no real discussion to be had here beyond "Who's your favourite and least favourite videogame industry celebrities?".

They are not fucking this up. It is a great idea to create such a thing. No one is forced in there, no will be separated, Everyone can go there etc. The last time people were asking for a safe environment even though PAX already is totally safe, they give you now this as well. But hey PA can not win no matter what they do and try because some people got pissed off because of some harmless dickwolves joke and because Gabe thinks you have to have a vagina to be a women....

Fucking Social Justice Warriros want to see the world or better the internet burn.

@brodehouse: I combined the two because they were both instances where Mike was in the wrong and made the situation worse. I had ZERO issue with the Dickwolves joke. I didn't find it offensive at all. When he got into trouble was when he taunted everyone who WAS offended by it. There are ways to stand by your joke and defend your joke without being awful to all the people who don't like your joke. He did it the wrong way. Also, your assertion that everyone was being a big meanie to him about the "women have vaginas" thing until one nice person fixed everything is factually inaccurate. There were plenty of people who tried to be nice about it. There were also plenty of people who tried to not be nice about it. He changed his stance on it because the person who spoke up was someone he knew personally. And once he realized that he had hurt someone who is a personal friend of his, he stopped.

I'm not asking you to hold anyone in moral contempt. You and anyone else can think whatever the hell you want about him and Penny Arcade. The only thing I'm asking you to do see how this is a totally backwards, tone deaf way of trying fix an issue that seems much more like a soulless PR move than an attempt to actually be better.