Congratulations. I'm sure being a dude in a fraternity it's pretty easy to focus on the benefits of belonging to an exclusive club without paying much mind to the sexual assault and rape occurring behind closed doors.

Very nice story sir. Just like every stereotype, there are always people that prove the stereotype and people to break the stereotype. Lots of people in frats are nice people. But there are also a ton of jerks, especially when they're drunk. Overall I don't really believe in the stereotype that they're aholes. There's too many nice people in them now for the stereotype to really still be a thing in my opinion.

@ssteve46: Well that was quick. I do not support any sexual assault of any kind. Yes, I know shit like that happens often in fraternities and it's disgusting. I did not witness nor did I know about any sexual assault happening in my chapter. My girlfriend (now my wife) was drugged at another chapter while we were dating (her friend took her home immediately). When I found out, I was ready to burn their house down. We reported them instead and they got disciplined for it.

I am merely telling my own story here.

I've got a few questions about this whole fraternity phenomenon. I know what it is only from Hollywood films as they don't exist in my country.

1. Do they exist in western Europe as well? If so, are they and American cultural import of have they actually originated there?

2. Are they actually supposed to be something like entry-level masonry? I don't have much against masons and other informal elite clubs (they're mainly a joke nowadays anyway) except the fact that they like to call themselves freethinkers while still refusing to accept atheists in their ranks.

@qrdl:

1. My Fraternity is considered international since it was founded in Italy and there are chapters in Canada. Fraternities are mostly North American and there are some academic greek type organizations in Western Europe which are co-ed. I worked with a girl from Holland who was in one.

2. It's a pseudo secret society. There are secret handshakes and such. The Masons inspired many fraternities and from what I hear, many fraternities borrow rituals and stuff from the Masons. It's purely a social/academic society these days with an initiation period.

Just throwing my two cents in, I was a member of a fraternity on Dan's campus around the time he was there. While there were certainly stereotypically brash, insular organizations that gave off a rapey vibe, most fraternities were just very active dorm experience alternatives. I valued being dragged to community events and parties as a natural introvert. I also valued having a natural framework for upperclassmen across disciplines (and levels of educational effort) to give advice to newbies. Most of the time, I valued having a big supply of folks who might only play Halo or Madden (if any games at all) to rope into weird games like Guitar Hero, Mario Party, or Shadow of the Colossus.

That being said, even the good fraternities are far from perfect. In an already far-from-representative population (college students), the greek member population is even less diverse. Not because of the desire to exclude any population (in fact, increasing diversity was a huge win for any recruitment chairmen due to university reporting), but still less diverse. Advantage dorms.

I wasn't offended at all by the podcast, because those bros really do exist. But if you're considering where to live when heading to college, I wouldn't rule out fraternities until you've had a chance to get a sense of the group as a whole. Not the outgoing recruitment chairmen who get you in the door, but also the guys playing Mario Kart drinking games as the party winds down.

Edit (an hour later): Whoa! I hadn't gone back to see what intermediate comments had been posted after I responded to the initial message. I hope my fairly sunshine-and-rainbows description of my experience following the exchange didn't imply that I condone furthering an atmosphere where sexual assault is considered anything less than monstrous. But that was not an atmosphere I experienced among my network of college friends, greek or not. Sexual assault is a very real, very scary problem on college campuses, but one that in my opinion we treated with the utmost importance.

@tekzero: I can appreciate that you're just relaying your own experience in this post. But I have to draw attention to the idea that your now wife was drugged in a fraternity and yet you're still happy to pen a multi-paragraph in defense of them, extolling their virtues in great detail. Am I wrong for thinking that's a little bit... I don't know... weird? I mean, if sexual assault and rape were taken half as seriously as they should be, I'd expect a little bit more than simply saying the rapists in fraternities "shame us all." How about some regard for the victims? Who gives a shit if you're shamed? Do you have to live with being the victim of rape for the rest of your life, constantly having to shoulder that burden in a culture/system that would deride and shame you should you ever be so brash as to report your rapist? No? Look, I get that this is your story and I'm cool with that, but the guys on the Bombcast weren't talking about your story. No one actually cares whether you're a 'bro' or not. Really, they don't. Rape victims' primary concern isn't that their rapist was a total bro. In the Bombcast, the crew were referring to the epidemic of sexual assault on college campuses and specifically the concentrated number of rapes in the Greek system. That's the real issue here. Instead of defending the fraternity system because of how cool it made you, maybe divert your energy to calling out those rapists and concomitant injustices that plague the Greek organizations. I dunno man, just a thought.

@qrdl: @tekzero: Small addendum to that.

In my experience, any sort of student union can be interpreted as a fraternity. Some are more lax in their requirements, some are more strict, some are organized along faculties, some are organized along ideologies or faith. Fraternities come in all shapes and sizes. At its most basic, a fraternity is an easy and quick way to meet like-minded individuals.

Whatever sort of initiation, "esoteric" gestures and all that kind of stuff there is in fraternities is mostly to weed out the chaff from people who actually want to join the fraternity.

The biggest problem for most fraternities is the stereotype that comes with belonging to a fraternity. Most fraternities don't consist of semi-alcoholic, upper middle class duders and dudettes who party their way through college / university relying on daddy's cash. Of course, some fraternities don't give a damn about their public perception and revel in that stuff.

Important side note: I never cared for fraternities during my short lived tenure at uni. I've come across all sorts of students, some of whom conformed to the stereotype, most of whom didn't.

Cool story...Bro

(Please don't take that seriously) It was interesting reading your perspective, my cousin did that stuff and he seems to have a great group of friends because of it which is great but I will say that the entire idea behind it just doesn't sit well with me I don't like the culture it seems to breed. Having your own little exclusive club just seems like a thing small children do I understand the reaons for doing it and obviously most of them are harmless even beneficial but I don't know it just kinda ends up seeming weird to me "Hey man we go to the same school lets be buddies for life" seems like a real thin reason to be friends and you know the whole rape thing just seems to have permeated that entire scene and seems to be true even from your own experience even if wasn't your "chapter" (Terms like that are one of the reasons I can't stand this stuff) participating.

@tekzero: OK, interesting. I was actually expecting fewer similarities between fraternities and masonic lodges.

One more multilayered question which actually bothered me for much longer than the previous ones.

Do the values (real or supposed) of fraternities differ in any meaningful way?

Are they even codified and common between colleges?

Are these values the basis for choice of a particular one or is it just family tradition, chance or like mindedness between a candidate and members on a particular campus?

@ssteve46: I could sit here and condemn ( I already strongly do) the sexual assault on college campuses all day, but it's not going to solve anything. Out of respect for the victims, I am not going to assume I understand their pain or offer a simple solution to the problem. I understand you can't talk about fraternities and not talk about sexual assault as well. Aside from what happened to my girlfriend at another fraternity, I have had no other experience with it outside of rumors and hearsay.

Which is why I decided not to discuss it much.

@qrdl

1. I can't speak for the values of other fraternities since they mostly keep that stuff to themselves. Kappa Sigma (one of the biggest in the nation) however has taken a zero tolerance policy to hazing and sexual assault. You get caught doing it, you get kicked out. Not to mention any legal consequences.

2. Fraternities are national organizations with loosely autonomous chapters at various Colleges. There is a national set of values that differ from Fraternity to Fraternity. Each chapter has to run themselves based on the national bylaws. But, it's the dudes in the chapter that make the difference. My brother tried to pledge KS in FSU but he said the guys there were total douchebags. What you get at one school you probably won't find at another.

The only British fraternity phenomenon I can think of exists in private schools like Eton and such. Most notably the Bullingdon Club which effectively begat the current government.

I'm from England and I don't think i'll ever really understand the frat/sorority culture. Obviously our only real impression of it comes from movies, but if any of the pledge stuff is real, I think over here you'd just be told to jog on and then theres this exclusivity which I don't understand.

The only experience I have with Frats are: The two frat houses across the street from this High School my brother went to that were both full of assholes and that the big after party for my prom was at some frat and they were charging 50 bucks to get in (less for the ladies, which is gross) so people could drink cheap watery beer which you had to pay for (Free for the girls! Eww). Most people I know who went said it was kind of a bad time. Me and of my friends payed about 40 bucks for booze, got equally as drunk, and had a lot of fun with the added plus that the girls with us were probably much much safer since they were sleeping on the couch of someone they knew and not passing out in some random fucking house. Don't know anything about sororities since all I've seen about them is Black Christmas and I doubt that's a good look into what life in one is like, you know with the phone calls and murdering and all that.

I can understand that you might be an exception to the stereotype. You probably weren't some tough guy bro and I bet if you and I met at a bar we'd have a couple beers and get on pretty well. But you telling your story hasn't changed my perspective on Frats. You have a bunch of young boys, who, like most young boys and girls, like going to parties. They drink and do drugs like a lot of young people do as well. That on it's own isn't a bad thing. It's when you A) put all the young boys together without girls and B) put them in a secretive organization that feels official. This would, in term make someone feel special, better than his peers because he belongs to frat x,y,z whatever, get's to call people "brother" etc. Combine those two things and you have a recipe for some bad shit namely sexual assault and rape. Also good to keep in mind that 'rapey looking bros' aren't the only people who commit sexual assault. You may not have seen it, but it happens, especially at frats. It probably happened at yours without your knowing, and judging by your wife's experience it happens other places as well. All that without mentioning the whole entitled air of secrecy you get from a frat. Calling members your brothers, having secret codes all of that. It feels creepy.

Edit: Also I'd just like to say: you mention that the ones who partake in sexual assault and rape in frats give them a bad name. Id say any organization that has members who partake in those kind of acts deserves a bad name, regardless of the fact that the bad apples got 'disciplined'. There will always be more, and there always a chance that the brats who do it are considered too important to punish appropriately.

Guys frays are not that exclusive I'm friends with a lot of frat dudes and in fact am actually currently living in a frat house without actually joining up. Two of my best friends growing up went on to become Vice Presidents of their own respective fraternities, so I've spent a significant time around the culture and I've never seen anything that would raise red flags.

Both of the fraternities are strictly anti-hazing and I have never felt like I've met anybody in a frat that actually had an annoying sense of superiority, most of them just like to have a good time.

Also, nerds are all over the frat houses. When dark souls 2 came out we lined up three tvs and three ps3s and played the game for 48 hours straight in the main room of the house.

Edit: let me rephrase. I have definitely seen things that raised red flags but none of them were in either of the two fraternities I hang out in and I haven't been back

I'm largely suspicious of fraternities because they are essentially paid friendship circles. Not only do you have to match the identity of a fraternity to join, but you have to pay dues to join that could go into the hundreds or thousands of dollars. For that price you are given access to a social network that benefits you your entire life and usually you get access to special facilities, events, and privileges that ordinary students do not enjoy. It basically feels like the embodiment of the privileged of wealth in America. You pay money to have an established social group that is bound to you by oath, you get the protections that being in a group of like minded folks affords you, and you get access to shit that regular students can't use. It makes sense why people join fraternities if they don't feel confident to take on social situations on their own and make friends on their own, but it seems really skeezy to have to pay for like minded friends who have your back. And all of that is tangential to the type of shit that people do once they pay for those privileges.

Wow I didn't know you pay to be in frats. A bit strange. I don't have experience in the US system but my uni had a college system and it seems quite similar. I was a big fan of the atmosphere of having this us vs them(other colleges) feeling, it was quite fun and drove me to do lots of random things I don't normally do(rowing, debating, soccer, etc). I thought it was great that I got to go watch movies/drinks/hiking with totally random people. I found the Uni level societies to be less interesting and homey.

I hate it when people just assume "lad culture" and then dismiss the enterprise, people are so shallow sometimes... The benefits of having this sort of thing may not be available to the eye, in fact they may not even be available to the insider. I only know that I observe people who never got over their confidence issues and this post makes me wonder if a frat would have helped some people I care about.

Also I absolutely don't trust "sexual assault" stats. I think people use that term instead of "Rape" so that they can make up whatever statistics they want later on.

just isn't close to the real situation.

Over the past year or two, the only "epidemic" has been the media using some real horrifying crimes to get page views from other wild, unsubstantiated claims and hyperbole. And even worse, from the current administration of the US government using skewed data to give themselves a political advantage.

The "1 in 5" statistic (implying that 20% of all females who go to college experience sexual assault) comes from one study from 2007 that had completely different results from every other and it's since even been explained by the person who created it as not something that shows a full picture, yet it's the only one that the media (and the President) latched on to. For just one example, this much wider-reaching fact set from the US govt.s own Bureau of Justice Statistics concludes among other things:

- That the occurrence of sexual assault among females ages 18 - 24 has been declining over the past decade

- That sexual assault is more prevalent in females ages 18 - 24 who are not in college vs. those who are

Please don't think that this is in any way "victim blaming". It's hard to discuss these issues rationally and not have emotion guide the conversation. And these stats don't mean that rape and sexual assault is any less of a problem. One rape is a problem. One person forced to do anything sexually is the biggest crime in the world for that person. You're clearly passionate about these issues, and should be. Any sexual assault in any form should never be tolerated.

But when we get away from the real situation, and create a kind of "epidemic" fear in our minds, that limits the effectiveness of steps taken to eliminate these crimes. And worse, creates monsters out of utterly innocent people, like the OP you're attacking for simply describing his nice time at school. I don't want to derail this thread (as I already have) but we need to stop blaming people from crimes they did not commit. The OP wasn't in a position to stop these things from happening just as most of us also are not. And him being part of the "Greek System" does not at all contribute to the horrible acts perpetrated by some who have nothing to do with him.

Problems are only solved by examining an actual situation and addressing it directly. Creating dragons to slay is a manipulative distraction that does nothing but ensure specific problems slip through the cracks and the crimes will continue.

---

Fhew! Anyway... I personally always thought frats were weird, but I'm a fiercely independent person who's never wanted to be part of any greater organization. But I can completely understand those who feel differently and find comradery in being part of a group. My mom was in a Sorority, and I've definitely made fun of her for it as she was not the never the stereotype you'd expect to even want that. She was a scrawny bookworm, and she's said pretty much what the OP is saying. That her Greek experience helped compel her to be more social and get more out of her college experience on top of her education.

It's absolutely not for me, but for others, more power to ya'!.

Fraternities are really odd and I think if Americans had a lower legal drinking age college kids wouldn't feel the need to join a dumb club centred upon alcohol (if I've misunderstood the role of drinking in frats, forgive me, but blame basically every media portrayal ever). Maybe part of it is also the respectability of the networking aspect. "I was hired because the interviewer knew a pledge brother of mine" sounds a bit better than "I was hired because the interviewer and I both used to get shitfaced with my old drinking buddy Frank".

@shindig: I get the impression that groups like the Bullingdon Club are closer to being a real life illuminati jr. than a fraternity.

@ssteve46: Dude, the guy was just telling a story about his fraternity and you chose to extrapolate from that that he somehow doesn't take rapes on college campuses seriously.

Maybe you should look up 'non-sequitor'.

@pcorb:

"The Bullingdon Club is an exclusive but unofficial all-male students' dining club at Oxford University, noted for its wealthy members, grand banquets and boisterous rituals, such as the vandalising ('trashing') of restaurants and college rooms."

Frat as fuck. Sure, they have prestigious members but the actual power brokers seem to pass through almost coincidentally. Posh, powerful people go to Oxford by default but the Bullingdon Club does not train them. They go for the reputation and then follow it up with dickheadedness.

@shindig: Seems to be more much more debauched and ostentatious in a vaguely sinister high society kind of way than your average frat, to me at least.

I have never gone to a physical college. I was in the army for two wars, and I graduated from an online University to get my Associates. I may go to college again to get my bachelors, but I dont know if I need to really.

Anyway, the army is the closest thing I have that I would consider a "frat." It has very similar concepts, experiences, and shapes people similarly. There is a point where it diverges, and is very different (I mean, I don't think you'll save you're best friend from gun fire in a fraternity per say), but in a lot of ways it's very similar in experience. So, in a tiny way, I have had small fragments of similar experiences to you in your fraternity.

The real problem is what you already brought up: the fraternity you started is meaningless. It gives you no social advantage beyond meeting great people, and sharing special moments with them in an important time in your life (much like the Army in fact). Bigger fraternities hold some kind of power. Or at least they did at some point, I don't know what it's like now.

I've never cared about being cool, and when I was just getting out of high school being in a fraternity meant being cool, liking sports, and being an all around asshole. Obviously, that is a stereotype, but even the idea of just having a place to party was never appealing to me. None-the-less bigger fraternities are still something I would not want to associate with, but they're the ones that matter. They're the ones that get people jobs, money, power, friends, and whatever else. It's gross to me just from there. Someone should never be considered over someone else because of what fraternity they were in. That's an awful indicator to me.

But ya, I know there are nerdier, less important frats out there that do something different. Even Animal House was kind of about that kind of fraternity facing off against the fraternity that actually mattered.

So, no worries, OP. We know.

It's just a bunch of fucking assholes borne into ridiculous wealth who think they can do whatever the fuck they want (which usually they can, sickeningly) Then they go onto take up jobs in the Conservative party and rule in a way that just leads to the next generation of fucking assholes borne into ridiculous wealth following the same pattern. YAY DEMOCRACY.

fraternities/sororities are trash, sorry

Groups of young people socializing are sinister and dangerous and should not be allowed anywhere.

Studied fraternities in sociology, not as much as I would have liked though only about 3 weeks. Basically they are divided into "High risk" and "Low Risk" frats. High risk frats are the one that people with a negative opinion think about when talking about frats. Yes they do exist and Yes they sometimes do the shit people are afraid of. Gang rapes, drugging, simple and aggravated assaults... That said a frat that is high risk doesn't mean it is a den of rapists and womanizers just the same as a low risk frat isn't full of what we would consider upstanding citizens. Someone who is in a high risk frat doesn't make them complicit with what others in the frat do.

Fear of things like fraternities is based off the concept of group think and defusal of responsibility (maybe appeal to higher authority which is self explanatory), which in the simplest terms i can think of is getting caught up in a group and doing a ton of shit that would normally violate your internal mores. Neither of these i feel i can adequately explain in more detail without fucking up some portion of it so I'll leave you to google it if your curious, group think especially is interesting as it also plays into mobs and riots.

congratulations

I'm glad you spoke up about your experience with your fraternity. Back when I went to college I joined a fraternity too and like you, saw this organization as something better than the others I looked at. The members mostly felt down to earth and actually, quite nerdy. Of course, I accept that fact that numerous fraternities have done extremely dumb actions that are inexcusable and I totally get why the guys on the podcast would have a negative view on fraternity life. Greek Life ain't for everybody. @cubidog1 said it best, there are stereotypes of different groups of people where the group members will either reinforce the stereotype or break it.