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eloj

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XBone eSRAM/GPU Performance Problems Rumors

There's a rumor that Microsoft are having problems with the XBone. There's been rumors before that they're behind on software, but these latest rumors pertain specifically to the hardware and the combination of eSRAM and GPU. The rumor is saying that they're having yield problems, specifically related to the eSRAM.

I will now go on and speculate widely. You have been warned.

It is claimed that the XBone APU is a one-die CPU+GPU+eSRAM solution, meaning that it's very large (~410mm^2). The only thing MS really said at their reveal was "5 billion transistors". This is interesting, and some correctly pointed out that it probably meant they couldn't compete with the PS4 on specs, because if they could, they'd be more specific.

The primary risk with large dies of course are low yields, resulting in higher costs to get enough dies that meet your specification. Now, Microsoft was not building a gaming machine first. They wanted to load a familiar operating system on there. They wanted more focus on applications that historically have not been heavily optimized for one platform. A relatively fat OS, and applications from developers who are not used to the scant resources typically awarded a gaming console, leads to one design conclusion; "we need lots of memory!"

So they design for 8GB, from the start. Again, they put applications (and cost) above gaming, and go for a well known, cheap, plentiful technology in DDR3. Back then 8GB of GDDR5 would look too expensive, almost insane, and DDR4 wasn't on the immediate horizon.

To compensate the gaming side, they now need some fast RAM, hence 32MB eSRAM on-die. The XBone eSRAM is said to be a 6T type, meaning that each bit requires six transistors. 32MB gives us 32*1024*1024*8 bits times six equals 1,610,612,736 transistors. That's 1.6 billion, a huge chunk out of the total 5 billion!

They do desperately need this very fast cache-like memory to fix the fact that they're using "slow" DDR3, which they settled on because they wanted to have a lot of it, for apps -- not games.

Recap: Decision to not focus on games results in design for a lot of memory, which is "slow" for cost reasons, which is compensated with cache. Result: Large die, with large percentage dedicated to what turns out to be a possible problematic memory to fab. Because the cache use so much die, they have to scale down on GPU.

They're reportedly roughly 2 billion transistors larger than the APU used by Sony in the PS4, which means worse thermals, which means lower clocks. The rumor is saying that the yields on this APU, due to the eSRAM, is so low, that they may have to cut the clocks on the eSRAM+GPU even further than what they've previously communicated to developers under NDA. This would make the XBone even weaker on the GPU side vs the PS4, which was already believed to be quite a bit stronger.

MS probably thought for the longest time, like PS4 devs did, that the PS4 would only have 4GB of GDDR5. Microsoft could work with that, they'd have the fast cache (which no doubt can be awesome when properly used -- I'm a huge cache nerd) and more total memory. They designed their system around being the platform with More Memory.

Cerny meanwhile had bet on GDDR5, and his bet has been that availability will increase and cost decrease at such a pace, that even back when they were first thinking about the PS4 and 2GB seemed like ample amounts, as time went on 4GB became viable.. and then at the last second... tick. Out of nowhere Sony steps up on stage and announce that they'll be using 8GB of GDDR5, twice the amount insiders thought for sure.

And they probably did this to match Microsoft, which has now lost their one advantage in specification. They on their parts are left having to pay the price of designing for apps before games, and that price just went up if this rumor is true.

There are so many "#potentialscenario" implications here, which I'll write about in a later post.

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Hunkulese

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Edited By Hunkulese

@hunkulese said:

@eloj said:

@hunkulese said:

It's moronic to think that they're not building the Xbox with a games first mentality.

I have tried with this blog post to explain why I don't think so, as if the reveal event weren't clear enough! To me, the technical evidence strongly suggests that the XBone was in fact designed not as a gaming machine foremost, but to be a generic "media hub" product that can also play games way better than a Wii-U or iPad.

I value all constructive feedback though, feel free to try again!

Try again at what? Look at what they're putting in the Xbox and I don't see how you could think it's not a games first console. Gambling on DDR5 becoming more affordable was a huge risk that paid off for Sony but by no means means that Microsoft wasn't designing a gaming console by opting for DDR3.

Well to have a nice chunk of the power of the system for the OS seems to mean they care about that first and added the customs parts to boost the gaming part later. They are trying to do it all which is the problem if you ask me.

Another example of someone reading something on the internet, having no idea what it means but coming up with their own conclusions anyway. I don't see how you can twist the fact that 3GB of ram is dedicated to the OS to a nice chunk of power of the system is for the OS. Ram isn't power and 5GB is still overkill for a dedicated gaming system. There hasn't been a game released yet that has required anywhere close to 5GB of ram. Look at the features that Sony is offering. They're going to have to dedicate of chunk of their ram to their OS as well. They've made a gaming console that they hope will be the only device necessary in the living room which is exactly the same thing that Sony has made.

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Bollard

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Good post; nice to have somebody actually talking specifics about hardware and what that means. Looking forward to the continuation!

I agree with this.

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antime

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@sooty said:

I've played Crysis 3 to completion on ultra on 4GB, and I remember looking at its process in the task manager and it didn't use anymore RAM than what I've already stated.

You PC also has a couple of gigs of RAM on the graphics card that Task Manager doesn't account for.

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Residentrevil2

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Edited By Residentrevil2

Oh, I read about this on Neogaf.

I'm not sure I can entirely believe this stuff especially if good looking games are coming out from all of the major publishers.

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jgf

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Edited By jgf

Oh, I read about this on Neogaf.

I'm not sure I can entirely believe this stuff especially if good looking games are coming out from all of the major publishers.

Even if the rumor is true and they downclock their GPU games will still look great. Not 2000$+ PC great, but I don't think it will be noticable that much. However the hardware geek inside me cries: Please don't ruin your console by rushing it to market. Take a deep breath, sort things out and come back all guns blazing when the effing thing is ready. That would be my approach.

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Sooty

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Edited By Sooty

@antime said:

@sooty said:

I've played Crysis 3 to completion on ultra on 4GB, and I remember looking at its process in the task manager and it didn't use anymore RAM than what I've already stated.

You PC also has a couple of gigs of RAM on the graphics card that Task Manager doesn't account for.

What? That has nothing to do with what I said, I was talking about the system ram usage, not the VRAM.

I wasn't debating how much VRAM it uses, only system RAM. I thought that was pretty obvious as system and VRAM are always treated as separate. PCs don't use combined memory after all, well, unless you're using a laptop with integrated graphics.

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antime

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Edited By antime

@sooty said:

@antime said:

@sooty said:

I've played Crysis 3 to completion on ultra on 4GB, and I remember looking at its process in the task manager and it didn't use anymore RAM than what I've already stated.

You PC also has a couple of gigs of RAM on the graphics card that Task Manager doesn't account for.

What? That has nothing to do with what I said, I was talking about the system ram usage, not the VRAM.

I wasn't debating how much VRAM it uses, only system RAM. I thought that was pretty obvious as system and VRAM are always treated as separate. PCs don't use combined memory after all, well, unless you're using a laptop with integrated graphics.

It counts towards the total memory usage. Saying a game needs only two gigs of memory is misleading if it needs another two gigs that just happen to be on the graphics card. Especially if you're comparing to a machine with an unified memory architecture.

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xyzygy

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@antime said:

@sooty said:

@antime said:

@sooty said:

I've played Crysis 3 to completion on ultra on 4GB, and I remember looking at its process in the task manager and it didn't use anymore RAM than what I've already stated.

You PC also has a couple of gigs of RAM on the graphics card that Task Manager doesn't account for.

What? That has nothing to do with what I said, I was talking about the system ram usage, not the VRAM.

I wasn't debating how much VRAM it uses, only system RAM. I thought that was pretty obvious as system and VRAM are always treated as separate. PCs don't use combined memory after all, well, unless you're using a laptop with integrated graphics.

It counts towards the total memory usage. Saying a game needs only two gigs of memory is misleading if it needs another two gigs that just happen to be on the graphics card. Especially if you're comparing to a machine with an unified memory architecture.

But what if the card doesn't have much VRAM? I always thought that say if you had no VRAM and like 16 GB of System RAM, the game will still run like shit because you need VRAM separate. Or does the card somehow convert system RAM into VRAM?

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EXTomar

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Edited By EXTomar

The answer is "It depends". On the PC side this style architecture isn't new it has never been widely adopted outside of laptops. On desktops, you have enough room and power that it pays to have separate high powered RAM and processors. In a laptop it doesn't make sense where the concern is more about heat and power.

Basically on a desktop PC it makes a lot of sense to buy a 2GB video card and 16GB mobo that communicate through a specialized high speed memory bus. In a compact or embedded system, that would be a luxury.

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GERALTITUDE

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Really excellent and interesting post, thanks eloj.