Shimakaze

@diz said:

I worry that you attribute specific, garbled and various meanings to agnosticism now, when you had previously seemed to try correcting someone over their own agnostic view by providing dictionary definitions that seemed quite suspect.

I use the term agnostic to show how I understand the nature of knowledge. I live as an atheist because of my experience and inquiry into faiths. Being agnostic, I don't claim to know anything! The concept of "proof" is a rather arbitrary, personal and biased. What's more; "negative proof" is a logical fallacy. Beliefs can be justified by evidence and have degrees of doubt, while faith need not have either.

I don't write the dictionary. Don't blame me if you don't agree with them. Anyway if you call yourself agnostic instead of atheist or spiritual or whatever, then that gives the impression that you let the lack of evidence affect your views rather then just being aware of the lack of evidence. if you say "I'm not atheist, I'm agnostic" then that must mean you have a different viewpoint then atheists, even though pretty much all atheists agree there's no proof. The difference then is how you let the lack of proof dictate your beliefs. And you're absolutely right that "negative proof" is a logical fallacy, that's what I've been saying all along. Lack of evidence is not evidence in itself. Let me make it clear, I have nothing against agnostics, But don't assume pure atheists are stupid and don't know there's no evidence just because they don't use the term agnostic.

You can buy Trenched in Norway so... is it a EU thing?

@diz said:

I'm an agnostic atheist since I see no evidence of God(s), so live my life without having faith. I can make the distinction between belief and knowledge.

I'd question the dictionary definition you provide; that states agnosticism is a "doctrine". Also, I think some religious people would believe the premise that there can be no proof of God existing - only faith.

Thing is, in this context it is about faith. When I use the term agnostic I use it as an umbrella term for a specific belief, namely that there's no proof either way so there must be something. And Atheism as in there's no proof either way so it's silly to assume there is something based on pure fantasy. You can use "agnostic atheist" to specify that you are an atheist that knows there's no proof, but that's not what this conversation is about. In that context agnosticism has nothing to do with this poll at all since it has no relevance to what degree of faith people have. However in the context of the poll, I use agnostic specifically for people who have "a" belief based on the idea that there's no proof against it. I don't think there are many people who don't agree there's no hard evidence. It takes something more to define yourself as agnostic as opposed to anything else in this case.

@TMThomsen said:

No, agnosticism simply refers to a claim of knowledge. I'm an agnostic atheist. I have no belief in any deity, but I don't claim to know for absolutely certainty that no deity exist.

Most people who refer to themselves as "agnostics" are simply unsure on the whole matter. They neither disbelieve nor believe in a deity, and are therefore by definition an agnostic atheist.

...That's kinda what I said.

@imsh_pl said:

@Shimakaze: You don't even know who an agnostic is, do you. And that anegdote is wrong on so many levels.

I know what the "official" definition of agnosticism is, but I admit I have no clue what your personal definition is, not that I care.

Wikipedia's definition: Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable

Dictionary definition:

1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.

2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

It's really quite simple. If you are agnostic you hold the possibility of God open because there's no proof against it, if you're pure atheist you require some form of evidence to support any wild speculation.

@imsh_pl said:

@EvilDingo: My point that

People who claim that there are no gods are just narrow-minded.

still stands.

I do not agree. In my view agnosticism is based on a logical fallacy. By using the lack of evidence as evidence. Imagine sitting in a living room and someone says "I believe there's a pink elephant in that bathroom over there". By sitting there looking at the door there's no evidence either way, but just by saying it he's already jumping to conclusions (religion). The agnostic friend would say "I can't hear or see anything but I guess there could be one? To be safe we should worship him anyway". The Atheist friend says "You're all idiots" walks over and opens the door and shows them there's no elephant inside.

The big difference here is the agnostic mindset was to accept the existence of the elephant because it hadn't been disproven while the atheist mindset was to be critical and attempt to actually find out the truth rather then just believing anything people say.

If you claim there's a leprechaun living in your cell phone but refuse to show it to anyone, then it's hardly narrow-minded to not believe it until proven.

@TMThomsen said:

Atheism is not a rejection of belief in a deity, it's a lack of belief in a deity. If you believe in a deity, you're a theist. If you don't believe, or are unsure, you're an atheist.

I hate seeing the word "agnostic" getting misused over and over. It's no use labeling yourself as an agnostic when it applies to 99% of people. Very few people claim to absolutely know that a certain deity does or does not exist. Heck, even some of the most fanatic Christians claim it requires faith.

But that's not what neither Atheism or Agnosticism actually MEANS. Atheism is a complete rejection of all religion and religious ideas. There's no "unsure" about it. Agnostic means you believe there might be "something" but you don't know specifically and don't believe any current religion. If you believe in a specific deity then by definition you can not be agnostic.

@TMThomsen: @TMThomsen said:

@Ahmad_Metallic: Agnosticism says nothing about your level of belief. It's a claim of knowledge.

Rather a claim of lack of knowledge (in a good way). Agnostic means you don't know if there is a higher power but don't rule out the possibility, atheism is a complete rejection of the concept.

According to Wikipedia: Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.

Personally I feel the supposed lack of evidence either way should not be used as evidence that there "could be" something. It's just jumping to conclusions based on the hope there is something.

@Klei said:

@Brendan said:

• NORTH AMERICA - BESTBUY
• CANADA - BEST BUY

What is this I don't even

A little while ago, the USA decided they were the only country in America.

From Wiktionary:

Residents of the United States of America may refer to their country as "the United States" (more formal), "America" (common and often patriotic), "the U.S.A.", or simply "the States" (informal). Residents of the United Kingdom typically refer to the United States of America as "America". Residents of Canada almost never refer to the United States of America as "America", referring instead to "the United States" (more formal), "the U.S." (common), or simply "the States" (informal).Residents of most countries in South America refer to the United States of America as "United States". Residents of most countries in South America refer to Canada and The United States of America as "North America". All official communication channels in Spanish speaking countries in America refer to the continent as "America" and when communicating news of the United States of America, they are required by law to refer to such country as "United States"

It's sort of like if British people suddenly decided they were the only ones who were Europeans. Gotta love when people in the US say things like "Canadians aren't American".

@alexl86: You're right. I apologize. I misread your comment.

@alexl86 said:

1$ is roughly equal to 10 NOK.

Actually it's close to 5 NOK. 600NOK is about 112 USD