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thebooya

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I Hate People Who Hate Change

(Reposted from Beefy Media's very own blog
 
  I was recently perusing the interwebs, searching around for new trailers or information about Bionic Commando: Rearmed 2. For those of you who don’t know, I previously worked at Capcom as Director of Production for three years, leaving recently to start my own company, Beefy Media. 

While I was at Capcom, we rallied for and got approved the sequel to our successful XBLA & PSN game, Bionic Commando: Rearmed. I was very excited to work on this project, as I had gotten a chance to work on the original title (albeit VERY briefly).

You see, when I first got to Capcom, I had 2 goals. Goal 1 was to  create a sequel to Dead Rising, one of my favorite games of past years. Goal 2 (only slightly behind goal 1) was to  resurrect the Bionic Commando franchise. I’m sure you can understand how pissed off I was on an EPIC SCALE when I joined mid-2007 and found out that BOTH of these initiatives were well underway without any of my ideas.

Regardless, I plodded along very happily that both were being made, and after talking to some people internally, heard that Blue Castle and Grin wouldn’t let down the fanbase on these sequels. My next goal was to get my hands on these games to try them out, which for those of you who don’t know, is near impossible in a Japanese company.

So fast forward a year later. Bionic Commando: Rearmed launches (with one of the greatest launch trailers of all time) and ends up selling very well. In 2009, myself, Rey Jiminez, a Producer at Capcom (and the current Producer of BC:R2), and Kraig Kujawa, our Director of Design, embark on a mission to get a sequel to the game made.

Now most people don’t realize that BC:R was almost a level-by-level perfect re-creation of the original. When I first met the development team, they showed me the palette swatches that they had taken the color choices for the game. It was intense… these guys clearly had as much passion for the original as I did back in the day.

When it came to the sequel, we had many conversations about what we could add. I want to be very clear – NOBODY INVOLVED IN THESE DISCUSSIONS WERE ‘SUIT DOUCHES’. A ‘suit douche‘ is the name that I have awarded to people in the games industry who are empowered to make decisions, but have no idea of what video games are about and ‘played a game or 2 some years ago’. I loathe these types of people, and I assure you we didn’t have any involved in the disucssions. I was lucky at Capcom to work alongside bright, talented, and ridiculously knowledgeable people.

Since BC:R2 was going to be a true sequel, it gave us an opportunity to build from the ground up what a sequel of the original was – rethinking the evolution of the character, the abilities, the environments – everything soup-to-nuts. We had passionate conversations with the BC:R team in regards to changes, suggestions, and improvements. The beautiful thing about it was that EVERYONE was passionate. Whether it was their idea or someone else’s, there was rabid conversation about changes and how we would handle it.

As I reminisce to those discussions, I bring you all around to the reason I’m writing this article. I recently came across an article written by Jeremy Parish aka @Gamespite that decided to make broad assumptions that the people that are making BC:R2 are spineless schmoopties trying to appease modern-day low-ass-barrier-of-entry gamers.

My friend, you couldn’t be FARTHER from the truth.

I read your article thoroughly, and I automatically give you a ton of credit. You are passionate, you are doing what you love, and you have a man crush on the Bionic Commando Franchise. You and I have all of those things in common – when I got my dream job at Capcom, I was (and am still) very passionate about what I do, doing what I loved (making video games FFS) and I had a THROBBING man crush on Bionic Commando.

So that’s why you have to understand that your article, although articulate, was thoroughly assumptive in all the wrong ways.

To your own admission, you applauded Capcom for evolving the original arcade version of Bionic Commando to the home console NES release. You even mention in your article that “ These small refinements took a concept that was interestingly novel but deeply infuriating in its arcade incarnation and made it completely viable and genuinely fun on NES. Bionic Commando began as a nice idea, but the improvements it saw in its transition to cartridge form transformed it into something unique and very nearly perfect in its execution.” This was due to some of the fundamental changes that Capcom took in the early days from the Super Joe control scheme to the Rad Spencer one.

And now we add the ‘jump’ function and everything that is and was Bionic Commando is flushed down the window? How is that so?

Every original game that gets a sequel changes. It evolves. New additions, new storylines, and – SHOCKER – new mechanics.

You facetiously mention that “ A platformer that threw out the jump button was well and good in the heady, experimental days of the ’80s, but in these safe and formulaic times, there’s just no room for it. ” Could it be that the people that made that decision and developed the game are as deeply passionate about the IP as you are? Could it be that we were refining and improving on things just as our forefathers at Capcom 20 years earlier would have? What would you say if I told you that the guys in Japan who had worked at Capcom 20+ years liked the idea? Would that sway you?

Why do we fear change in video games so much? We always assume that it’s going to ruin the experience. Our industry has evolved in astronomical ways over the past 30 years, and the developers of the game want to  “meekly” (as you say) add a new feature, and they are automatically chastised for  “ having a petrifying fear of alienating fickle audiences”?

What happened to the olden days where we had to actually PLAY the game before we asserted our opinion? Or maybe reached out to some people on the dev or publishing team to find out if they were simply ‘selling out’ to sell 7 more units?

Instead of asserting that  “even our digitally distributed niche games have to compromise for mass appeal when the folks watching the bottom line see that a wire arm as a potential noose around their necks.”, let’s say what we all really feel:

“As a massive fan of the Bionic Commando franchise, I’m super excited for the sequel for BC:R. I know you added jump, and although I’m skeptical, I’m going to buy the game. If it’s shit, I’m going to hop onto the tallest mountain and crap all over it, but before that moment I will assume, much like we did in the olden days, that there are some developers out there that still know what they are doing”.

And with that, and the utmost respect, I can speak from the heart when I say that the jump feels fucking awesome in Bionic Commando: Rearmed 2.

Sincerely yours,

Adam Boyes

A.K.A. one of the guys trying to ruin your favorite childhood game

PS – We made it so you can finish the whole game without jumping. Good luck. 
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thebooya

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Edited By thebooya

(Reposted from Beefy Media's very own blog
 
  I was recently perusing the interwebs, searching around for new trailers or information about Bionic Commando: Rearmed 2. For those of you who don’t know, I previously worked at Capcom as Director of Production for three years, leaving recently to start my own company, Beefy Media. 

While I was at Capcom, we rallied for and got approved the sequel to our successful XBLA & PSN game, Bionic Commando: Rearmed. I was very excited to work on this project, as I had gotten a chance to work on the original title (albeit VERY briefly).

You see, when I first got to Capcom, I had 2 goals. Goal 1 was to  create a sequel to Dead Rising, one of my favorite games of past years. Goal 2 (only slightly behind goal 1) was to  resurrect the Bionic Commando franchise. I’m sure you can understand how pissed off I was on an EPIC SCALE when I joined mid-2007 and found out that BOTH of these initiatives were well underway without any of my ideas.

Regardless, I plodded along very happily that both were being made, and after talking to some people internally, heard that Blue Castle and Grin wouldn’t let down the fanbase on these sequels. My next goal was to get my hands on these games to try them out, which for those of you who don’t know, is near impossible in a Japanese company.

So fast forward a year later. Bionic Commando: Rearmed launches (with one of the greatest launch trailers of all time) and ends up selling very well. In 2009, myself, Rey Jiminez, a Producer at Capcom (and the current Producer of BC:R2), and Kraig Kujawa, our Director of Design, embark on a mission to get a sequel to the game made.

Now most people don’t realize that BC:R was almost a level-by-level perfect re-creation of the original. When I first met the development team, they showed me the palette swatches that they had taken the color choices for the game. It was intense… these guys clearly had as much passion for the original as I did back in the day.

When it came to the sequel, we had many conversations about what we could add. I want to be very clear – NOBODY INVOLVED IN THESE DISCUSSIONS WERE ‘SUIT DOUCHES’. A ‘suit douche‘ is the name that I have awarded to people in the games industry who are empowered to make decisions, but have no idea of what video games are about and ‘played a game or 2 some years ago’. I loathe these types of people, and I assure you we didn’t have any involved in the disucssions. I was lucky at Capcom to work alongside bright, talented, and ridiculously knowledgeable people.

Since BC:R2 was going to be a true sequel, it gave us an opportunity to build from the ground up what a sequel of the original was – rethinking the evolution of the character, the abilities, the environments – everything soup-to-nuts. We had passionate conversations with the BC:R team in regards to changes, suggestions, and improvements. The beautiful thing about it was that EVERYONE was passionate. Whether it was their idea or someone else’s, there was rabid conversation about changes and how we would handle it.

As I reminisce to those discussions, I bring you all around to the reason I’m writing this article. I recently came across an article written by Jeremy Parish aka @Gamespite that decided to make broad assumptions that the people that are making BC:R2 are spineless schmoopties trying to appease modern-day low-ass-barrier-of-entry gamers.

My friend, you couldn’t be FARTHER from the truth.

I read your article thoroughly, and I automatically give you a ton of credit. You are passionate, you are doing what you love, and you have a man crush on the Bionic Commando Franchise. You and I have all of those things in common – when I got my dream job at Capcom, I was (and am still) very passionate about what I do, doing what I loved (making video games FFS) and I had a THROBBING man crush on Bionic Commando.

So that’s why you have to understand that your article, although articulate, was thoroughly assumptive in all the wrong ways.

To your own admission, you applauded Capcom for evolving the original arcade version of Bionic Commando to the home console NES release. You even mention in your article that “These small refinements took a concept that was interestingly novel but deeply infuriating in its arcade incarnation and made it completely viable and genuinely fun on NES. Bionic Commando began as a nice idea, but the improvements it saw in its transition to cartridge form transformed it into something unique and very nearly perfect in its execution.” This was due to some of the fundamental changes that Capcom took in the early days from the Super Joe control scheme to the Rad Spencer one.

And now we add the ‘jump’ function and everything that is and was Bionic Commando is flushed down the window? How is that so?

Every original game that gets a sequel changes. It evolves. New additions, new storylines, and – SHOCKER – new mechanics.

You facetiously mention that “A platformer that threw out the jump button was well and good in the heady, experimental days of the ’80s, but in these safe and formulaic times, there’s just no room for it. ” Could it be that the people that made that decision and developed the game are as deeply passionate about the IP as you are? Could it be that we were refining and improving on things just as our forefathers at Capcom 20 years earlier would have? What would you say if I told you that the guys in Japan who had worked at Capcom 20+ years liked the idea? Would that sway you?

Why do we fear change in video games so much? We always assume that it’s going to ruin the experience. Our industry has evolved in astronomical ways over the past 30 years, and the developers of the game want to “meekly” (as you say) add a new feature, and they are automatically chastised for  “having a petrifying fear of alienating fickle audiences”?

What happened to the olden days where we had to actually PLAY the game before we asserted our opinion? Or maybe reached out to some people on the dev or publishing team to find out if they were simply ‘selling out’ to sell 7 more units?

Instead of asserting that “even our digitally distributed niche games have to compromise for mass appeal when the folks watching the bottom line see that a wire arm as a potential noose around their necks.”, let’s say what we all really feel:

“As a massive fan of the Bionic Commando franchise, I’m super excited for the sequel for BC:R. I know you added jump, and although I’m skeptical, I’m going to buy the game. If it’s shit, I’m going to hop onto the tallest mountain and crap all over it, but before that moment I will assume, much like we did in the olden days, that there are some developers out there that still know what they are doing”.

And with that, and the utmost respect, I can speak from the heart when I say that the jump feels fucking awesome in Bionic Commando: Rearmed 2.

Sincerely yours,

Adam Boyes

A.K.A. one of the guys trying to ruin your favorite childhood game

PS – We made it so you can finish the whole game without jumping. Good luck. 
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Brians

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Edited By Brians

Well said, I think for some people they fear games they loved when they were younger won't have the same appeal in a newer version and that is why they are resistant to change.

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keyhunter

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Edited By keyhunter

"Highchronic commando"

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artofwar420

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Edited By artofwar420

I love your perspective. I totally agree sometimes this industry is deathly afraid of change, it can definitely hinder innovation fo sho. But let's not forget, money is what drives a lot of this, sadly.

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thebooya

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Edited By thebooya
@Briguile: Yeah, and I think people too often assume that the people making these sequels are idiots... not the case at all. 
@artofwar420: Money does make the world go round, but that was not the core motivation of our choice. Sometimes people can still make gambles that don't pay off (See Flock)
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jonnyboy

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Edited By jonnyboy

Totally read that as Slut Douche. Speaks Volumes.

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artofwar420

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Edited By artofwar420
@TheBooya:  Adding jumping you mean? I'm on board.
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Diamond

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Edited By Diamond

Mr. Boyes I knew what this rant was going to be about before I even clicked the thread.
 
First off I want to say my initial impression upon hearing that Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 would have a jump function was that the developers did cave in to demand.  I remember reading all those reviews that complained about the lack of a jump button in BCR and tearing my hair out and screaming at their stupidity.  The thing is, even until I read this blog by you, just now, I had no reason to believe it was anything but a marketing decision.  One of the biggest problems is lack of good communication behind the intentions of developers.  Regular gamers rarely get a view into the mindset or passion of game makers.
 
Personally, even after seeing that BCR2 would have jump it didn't bother me much.  There are many things that concern me a lot when I see changes being made to a formula that is unique and works perfectly fine, but in this case I'm not so worried about an outright betrayal of the franchise.
 
In the SNES days people couldn't bitch about things before they played them because people rarely knew anything at all about a game that had yet to come out.  There were no trailers or video previews or constant and easily accessible marketing push from developers.  There were many games I went into blindly and got burned badly by.  Those were the times.
 
I feel like a simplistic marketing message gets in the way of what should be a strong dialog between players and developers.  If players can feel more confident that a game maker isn't just doing something for sales, they'll usually feel better about it.  Trailers shove stuff into your face and don't tell you why things are the way they are.  It doesn't tell you anything about the passion or apathy a developer has for their product.

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thebooya

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Edited By thebooya

@jonnyboy: Slut Douche is pretty much replaceable with Suit Douche 
@Diamond: It's difficult when you work at a Publisher / Developer, because you can't really speak to haters or people that are trashing on your product. It doesn't do anyone any good - but I think if we create more open and honest conversations (like a lot of the indie guys do - Bastion, Team Meat, etc etc) then the industry will evolve into a more respected place. I mean c'mon, did you see our announce trailer? We even took the piss out of ourselves and the jump addition because we knew people would be split down the middle...    

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Edited By shiftymagician

There are changes that we can be understandably worried about when it comes to creating sequels to games that succeeded last time.  However, I never thought that a 'jumping' mechanic was really a big deal.  
 
I see a person.  People are naturally gifted with the wonderful ability to jump.  If I ever see a game in which an obstacle can be passed by jumping, and I cannot jump due to the lack of jumping, then I am immediately brought back to reality, and my eyes roll at the silly mistake in front of me.  Jumping hardly hurts anything in Bionic Commando at the very least, so adding it in should not be a big deal at all.
 
Blame the internet for allowing the rapid sensationalism of many things (not just in gaming).  We are at an age where anyone can literally say anything without thinking twice.  Ironic when you think that the internet also allows us to take the time in fact-checking everything and also making sure we are at least making some kind of rational sense before posting.
 
I also hate people who hate change, though I limit that to those who don't have a shred of rationality behind their statements.  They are different to people with valid concerns and only wish to discuss potential problems with announced changes to gameplay mechanics for sequels to games.

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Diamond

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Edited By Diamond
@TheBooya:  The way I perceived that part of the trailer was "Everyone wanted jump and boy golly gee we were dumb to not have given it to you last time but we're giving it to you this time!"  That's just how that part struck me.
 
A further problem is the games industry doesn't seem to be supported the way other entertainment media are.  With a new hot TV series or movie you'll be hearing rumors and interviews sometimes several years before the first trailer ever hits, and you never learn that Billy Bob is going to kill his sister -- which is a really dumb plot twist -- until the movie is already out.  Elder Scrolls 5 was just announced and there was a trailer, already tipping their hat on several aspects of the game, and no one outside the industry knew the thing even existed before yesterday.  As a small example ,even announcing a game like Crysis 2 for consoles as well as PC before really speaking about the passion behind the game's existence created an immense and immediate negative backlash for the game, and just because people who loved Crysis 1 on PC are worried that somehow means the game will be compromised before they even know any of the details of the game itself.
 
I guess if it were possible for people to talk about BCR2 and how they wanted to evolve the game like game series should and how they felt that was a natural way to forward the series as opposed to splashing it all down on us and letting the viewer decide why they did it and what their intentions are that would prepare the passionate gamer more.
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CptChiken

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Edited By CptChiken

I agree with this alot, they shouldnt have caved and put a jump button in.  
 
But i do like the way they announced it in the trailer.

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Edited By Dolphin_Butter
@TheBooya said:

"What happened to the olden days where we had to actually PLAY the game before we asserted our opinion?"


What happened indeed. This is definitely my biggest problem with people who express their opinions about games. 
 
In any case, I've been a rabid consumer of everything Bionic Commando because, for whatever reason, it's been the game my father have always talked about aside from Tetris Attack. When I heard about BC:R and its bigger retail cousin, I couldn't have been more excited. Not simply due to the fact that one of my formative childhood experiences was being revived, but that both seemed to accurately capture what made the NES release so fun. Despite well-justified complaints concerning the boxed-product Bionic Commando, I thought both delivered on the franchise's core values and, even at the age of 55, my father could just sit down, watch me play and smile the same as when he saw me play the arm-slinging Rad some 16 years ago. 
 
Your blog easily conveys the idea behind what makes games so great: It's an intangible something that goes way beyond the addition of small things like jumping. My father and I didn't care that Rad was given a first name or dreadlocks, and we certainly didn't give a damn when BC:R2 included new mechanics. We only want fun products that meet our investment of time, attention and money, and if the game industry isn't privy to change, then no gamel ever be worthy of those three things. 
 
P.S. Tell Ben Judd to get out and tell us what he's working on already. ;)
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Edited By ThePhantomnaut

I played some BC:R2 at Comic-Con. Despite the debug errors, there wasn't really any problem and jumping felt fine.

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Edited By Hamst3r
@TheBooya:  After you typed this up and read it back to yourself, did you let out a, "Booya!"?
 
I totally said "booya.", after which I laughed and said, "boom." as well.
 
As for the topic itself: While that dude went way overboard with the shit flinging; the feature added in to the new version is a feature that was omitted from the original and lent heavily to it's uniqueness, so it doesn't really come across as an evolution or advancement to put it back in. In a way, it looks like a step back.
 
Like if the protagonist of a horror game was a guy in a wheelchair, who moved slowly and had a very limited range of movement and in the sequel they made it so he could also get up.
 
I don't think it's really quite like that or all that big of a deal, but I can see where he's coming from. I'm pretty sure I'll want to shoot myself in frustration all the same, while playing BC:R2. :P
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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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I also hate these people.  Watching reactions for new announced games over the weekend sealed it.
 
People have a lot of stupid opinions, and are dead set that you're going to hear about them.

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Edited By MooseyMcMan

On the one hand, I'd like to whole-heartedly agree with you (and I do so far as Bionic Commando goes, when I played Rearmed I often wished there was a jump button), but I was definitely among the people who complained upon seeing character redesigns of Cole in inFAMOUS 2 and Dante in the new DMC, so it'd be a little hypocritical of me to say that I hate people who hate change (because to be frank, sometimes things don't need to be changed).  

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MarkWahlberg

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Edited By MarkWahlberg

1) Because of the enlarged font, I read this in your voice, which made it much better 
2) This is a good explanation of why I'm totally ok with (and prematurely psyched for) the new Tomb Raider. 
3) "Schmoopties" is one of the greatest words I have ever seen. 

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SSValis

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Edited By SSValis

Hate is a strong word and I hate you. 
 
 
 
jk I didn't even read what you posted.

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thebooya

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Edited By thebooya

There will be a sequel to this thread once we get closer to DmC's release as well, as I had a hand in that reboot. 
 
OH GOOD LORD, MAYBE THE DOWNFALL OF THE GAMES INDUSTRY IS RELATED TO ME??!? 
 
And/or Johnny V has to be involved...

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Edited By meptron

I hate people who hate people who hate change. I just hate in general. I'm full of hatred. And I hate that about me.

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MattyFTM

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Edited By MattyFTM  Moderator

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a brilliant example of why we need more open communication in the video games industry. People involved in the development of the game need to be able to talk passionately about the games they're making and explain why design decisions (especially somewhat controversial decisions) have been made. I don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of game development studios, but I'm willing to bet that the majority of people involved in the development of any game are passionate about what they do, and are making decisions that they believe will benefit the game. They may get it wrong, they're only human, but their intentions are good.

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piropeople13

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Edited By piropeople13

Good read.  Nice to hear about someone doing what they love for a living.

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deactivated-5a995178e28eb

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 Adam,
 
If Beefy can hold its own for the next few years, just create all the change you want.
 
There isn't anything wrong with the devs at big studios, its the executives who are so fucking scared of not making those milestones that they hire a bunch of corporate "people managers" to keep those CRAZY KOOKY GAME DEVELOPERS IN LINE AND FOCUSED ON TASK. No different than A&R at the big music conglomerates.     
 
It's no surprise that it has almost become standard practice for any dev worth a damn to launch a start up studio. I mean shit, you know that better than anyone. Look at fucking Vancouver and Montreal. 
 
It's happening more and more in Toronto, too. I love it. 
 
I also love my AAA games but I don't see how you or anyone would want to work in that environment? As soon as a company starts getting those big tax incentives and digs its heels in to the city economy you know they're going to bring in the Suit Douches. More so if venture capital is involved. 
 
Video Games were destine to follow the path of Film, Television and Music as soon as the 8-Bit era started rolling and bringing in tons of cash for all of those Japanese companies. Companies that were eventually modeled after the time tested "Salaryman" template.
 
Anyway, keep Beefy strong, build some good software and make the studio what it ought to be. Not a mill that churns out big budget sequel after sequel.
 
The shady tactics used by some of the big companies (EA) to lure talented devs really just hurts the game industry. 
 
Just like in other media industries, a talented game developer (broadly speaking anyone who has their shit together in either the art or engineering dept) is going to get fucking bombed by the big name studios as soon as they make a name for themselves. 
 
Why do these guys keep flocking to UBI, EA and EIDOS for those Producer positions when its been painfully obvious now for about 7 years that its entirely realistic and viable to break away, grab some buds you work with and star your own company?
 
Developers don't need money. They need other developers, a small relaxed studio, long lunches, a few arcade machines in the office and realistic work hours so they can get home at a decent hour. 
 
Honestly, its like everyone fucking forgot about this:  http://workingweek.blogspot.com/ 
 
 The best way to make change is to start your own company. I hope more devs learn that ladder climbing in the big studios is no longer the only way to make good games. 
 
Keep up the good work, Adam.

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thebooya

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Edited By thebooya
@MattyFTM said:
" And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a brilliant example of why we need more open communication in the video games industry. People involved in the development of the game need to be able to talk passionately about the games they're making and explain why design decisions (especially somewhat controversial decisions) have been made. I don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of game development studios, but I'm willing to bet that the majority of people involved in the development of any game are passionate about what they do, and are making decisions that they believe will benefit the game. They may get it wrong, they're only human, but their intentions are good. "
Amen, Brother! 
 
@MarkM: 
And a triple Amen to you, MarkM. I'm bubbling with excitement over some of the stuff that we are cooking up at Beefy, and it involves ALL of the shit you talk about. Super smart people, small groups of them, who are ultra effective at creating ridiculously amazing things. I liken making video games to War - it's FAR more effective to have a small elite group of soldiers to take out a goal or objective instead of marching 500 men through the front gates. We see now that these games (the Minecraft guys, Angry Birds, Limbo, Castle Crashers, Joe Danger, etc etc etc etc) are becoming commercially successful. 
 
Part of my master plan is to create the equivalent to the 'Star Alliance' of the airplane industry - where we create an INDEPENDENT coalition (not a big org) of the best-in-breed of each discipline, and allow the people to do what they are great at. Once that comes to fruition - where the funds that are available to the huge teams become available to the more agile and well run smaller teams, the sky is the effing limit.
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DukesT3

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Edited By DukesT3

This is pretty much how I felt when reading the comments of people bashing the new SSX game. Bitching how they want another tricky and blah blah blah. Tricky was great and amazing but I don't want another of the same game and we haven't even got to see what the new SSX really is. It could still be wild over the top with a new fun personality. Who knows?! The trailer was a bad first impression cause it did give off a "black ops" vibe but the fact that a new SSX game is coming already has me excited. If you don't want change then stick to the games you love and don't get any new ones cause they will change because you have to keep your shit fresh son! 

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Agent47

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Edited By Agent47
@MarkWahlberg: Hell yeah TR was in need of change, and so far it is looking oh so good.
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EpicSteve

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Edited By EpicSteve

...liberal 
 
 
zing

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There's already so many games that have jumping.  I don't see why Bionic Commando needed it, when it was offering something different.  Still... A bionic arm and jumping is a little different, even if it's been done before.  I don't really mind.