Bombin' the A.M. With Scoops and the Wolf: 10/13/2014

woo! video!

Nice Destiny companion.

I wish Patrick wouldn't instantly link this horrible abuse to all people who use #Gamergate. Many people who use and follow the hashtag think the death threats and harassment of that ilk is wrong and after it happened a good majority of the tweets around the tag was along the lines of "Someone (Cops FBI etc) needs to get the asshole(s) who are doing this harassment."

I also think it's disappointing (but not shocking) that he also completely ignores all those who have been doxxed and harassed in #GamerGate.

Examples: https://twitter.com/GGfeminist/status/520754494313754624/

https://twitter.com/Alison_prime/status/521507154772385792

https://twitter.com/DanielleGieger/status/519869076517425152

https://twitter.com/FartToContinue/status/520964815230345217

That's just a few, people have had their jobs lost because of calls to their work, threats to contact their family/schools about different aspects of their lives (Gay/Trans/Non-liberal). I mean fuck, Milo Yiannopoulos, got a fucking syringe of something sent to him in the mail. All of these attacks get ignored or outright dismissed as either not real/made up or deserved.

There's vitriol on both sides and its fucking sad and pathetic. Abuse and harassment needs to stop but because of the nature of the internet it won't. We can only hope that some of these asshats get caught but don't act like it is a one sided thing.

There are some points on both sides yet we will not get anywhere as long as everyone is either an evil SJW or Misogynist. People have claimed that all is needed is to distance oneself from the hashtag, but do you really think that if #EthicsGamers or something else was where everyone with a valid point went to, that the assholes and degenerates wouldn't follow? Personally I hate anything ____Gate because it's a stupid name that means nothing, all because a hotel happened to be called Watergate, but #GamerGate is the name that stuck and just kinda has to be lived with.

I'm actually of the opposite viewpoint about Shadow of Mordor's ending. I liked the fact they didn't need to throw in some super hard boss battle because, hey its a boss battle. That's how you get a Bioshock boss or an Arkham Asylum hulked out Joker.

"He is doof personified."

I don't know why, but this broke me.

@patrickklepek In that 30 seconds outside, did you get into a car? If so, check under the seat. If not and you were only standing during that trip, then it has to be inside the house. Don't give up hope!

As someone who is in the grey area of this whole thing, and i say grey as in i hope both sides can shut the fuck up soon, because im getting sick of all the shit throwing. That said i just read this article today, and i found it very interesting, and to make a lot of sense. More sense than any side has been able to formulate. Maybe you will find it interesting too.

#Gamergate Trolls Aren't Ethics Crusaders; They're a Hate Group

Considering IG had to be brought on to work on the game + after all this time there are only 2 episodes, maybe Swery is the one who bungled D4? I enjoyed it so far, but it's not too hard to believe the thing was a mess and barely got out the door at all.

Uncharted 1 did end in a QTE on a ship, and it was OK at the time, but yeah, it's 2014. You make a big deal about Nolan North playing him and spend the whole game building up this Hand of Sauron villain, and then dispatch him in seconds with a couple buttons. Weird in a game where you could organically make a pretty tough boss by just losing to a Warchief a few times.

It sucked, but it wasn't the hook of that game anyway.

I love Patrick and Alex! Eh hem, excuse me, I love Scoops and The Wolf, apologies!

@patrickklepek People sent you shitty letter about your dad and Ryan?! Dam, I am so sorry to hear that man. Some people are skidmarks on the underpant of the world.

Also, lol at Giant Bomb fan fiction.

Just ... stop, #gamergate defenders. It's a toxic hashtag. Whatever points you have elsewhere, clinging to that stupid hashtag is a lost cause. Find a new hashtag that isn't toxic, or better yet, just stop this stupid hashtag operation dumbname bullshit and broach the topic like adults. All these -gates and operations sound like children playing make-believe.

I say this as someone outside looking in who thinks neither side of this whole debacle has looked particularly good. The whole caboodle -- players and journalists alike -- needs a strong dose of maturity to be taken seriously by anyone looking at this mess objectively.

I dunno. I thought Saints Row 4 had pretty good DLC. The Xmas stuff and the behind the scenes stuff. Saints Row 3 DLC was kinda poop though.

Also, I kinda liked the ending boss fight brawl in Uncharted 1. Very action movie, as opposed to the magic bombs final fight of 2, and however 3 ended. How did Alex never finish it?

Good show!

I said it in the chat and I'll say it here: I really appreciate all the work you guys do!

I hope for a future where there is absolute zero tolerance for disgusting online conduct, especially threats.Just shut the fuckers down.

When Dan joined the site I looked down at his perpetually happy state with pity and contempt.

Now i envy it.

Great show guys. @alex have you ever thought of doing your own jartime type show? I really enjoy listening to you go in deep on a subject.

@tehpickle: I don't often wish I could "thumbs up" or "like" or "Yeah!" on Giant Bomb. This is one occasion where I do.

@tehpickle: Excluding those who do the threats, I think everyone agrees on this. I know I certainly do. I don't agree with Anita for example but she doesn't deserve vitriol, death threats or bomb threats. No one does and the people who do it are pathetic psychopathic children regardless of their actual age.

@synthesis_landale:

Should I bring up the old adage that the part does not represent the whole? Random trolls do not represent a group of people.

"All Gamergate supporters are misogynist harassers because of this event. All Muslims are radical terrorists because of ISIS. All Christians are racist homophobes because of Westboro Baptist."

Look at how stupid and ignorant that makes me sound.

As someone who hasn't taken part in this controversy (Twitter is stupid) the selective nature of how harassment is portrayed is quite frankly disgusting. All this hand waving and moral high ground pretentiousness is incredibly grating as an outsider looking in. If you have to stand on your moral high ground you probably don't have one.

They selectively decide that "All GG is harassment because of X". So both of them are woman haters because a feminist professor on GG side got sent death threats by a student who is against the hashtag? Is that when I'm hearing? The dissonance is astounding. Painting with a wide brush is easy when you're in a mindset to not listen to criticism and opposing views, and your immediate reaction to said views is "harassment bad, you hate women". It took me all but 15 minutes of searching on Twitter to find harassment on BOTH sides.

Character assassination is a big warning sign that not all is what it appears. Universal character assassination of a large group of people by publications is also something that just screams: "We have a narrative and we're pushing it". I dunno, maybe it's years of conditioning myself to look at FOX and MSNBC articles with more scrutiny. I'm not someone who blindly listens to articles (liberal, moderate, or conservative) and nods my head and go "Yes, this is how it is, thank you for reinforcing my perceptions".

Back to less controversial things:

D4.... I don't know if it's Swery or MS. I want to blame MS because they have a history of bungling a lot of stuff they touch. I want Swery to succeed because he's a crazy dude with crazy ideas.

I to am sick of the douche bag trolls as well as the highfalutin game journalists bickering back and forth. Both sides need to grow up. And yes I am and will forever be a gamer. Believe in that!

Gamergate was born out of trying to harass women and shut them up. If you don't agree with that then you should have known what was associated with that term before you started using it and you need to stop associating yourself with it immediately. I'm basically where Alex and Patrick are with this whole thing where I don't even know what to say about it and it often feels surreal that all of this is even happening. This past weekend I saw Greg Miller and other male industry people thanking their fans at NYCC for being so great to them while the women were being abused and threatened. Whatever you think GG is really about you need to realize what it actually is and even if you want to debate critiques about games maybe put that aside for now until we get the more important stuff figured out.

@synthesis_landale: I think it's just an easy ID label, rather than "those guys who may/may not be a Gamergate splinter group or possibly Gamergate members themselves." Besides, although it's true that Gamergate members aren't all a bunch of jerks, the roots of this whole debacle (that being the idea of ethics in journalism and games etc) lay in Gamergate's inception. It is directly linked to this stuff; whether all members endorse it or not, the Gamergate following has some level of responsibility. I'm not speaking about people specifically, but the group they are attached to, as I believe Patrick is.

"Well-known gaming activists who are - possibly unfairly - infamous for discrediting/attacking/threatening women online are the first suspect in a threat-against-woman-in-games case?" Shocker.

When you have a loosely connected group of people following a vague ideal, surpise! Some stuff might be (in)correctly attributed to them. It's a hazard of said following.

I play video games and I create video games but I am not a part of some "video game community".

It's unfortunate that GG is being painted with a singular brush, one of the most recent examples of someone threatening Anita was identified and the authorities were clued in by the GG community. I don't mind people not caring about GG but it's a little unfair to paint everyone in it as doxxing misogynists when there has been plenty of that going both ways (Boogie2988 for example).

edit: https://twitter.com/sanc/status/521211260017606656

It's whatever. You're welcome Anita.

What exactly is a Gamergate member?

GGers aren't all harassers and violence threateners. They don't all post on 4chan and 8chan and IRC. They don't all hack and spread personal information.

But the founders of their movement and their hashtag harass indie devs and writers who are women. They create sock puppet accounts to bombard people they don't like. They accuse those that they've attacked with making it up and use terms like "false flag" and "shill" without knowing what those words even mean.

If you are looking for transparency and ethics, abandon the garbage people that founded and hide behind your movement. Those garbage people are the "gamers" that writers were talking about the death of, not you. Those garbage people were the 13 year old boys on Xbox live we hated years ago. Those garbage people, once they rid gaming of the people you don't like, WILL TURN ON YOU TOO. They'll find a reason why you don't belong in THEIR hobby.

You, gamergater, are not that garbage person. And you weren't the person those writers were insulting. So please don't stand in the company of monsters.

This, and also, the guy who was giving threats to Anita was identified and the authorities were alerted about him BY the #GamerGate community, not that it would ever be acknowledged.

GOD! Alex, so hyperbolic.

To be honest I'm not here nor there I don't really stand for any "side", And I find that the sort of harassment that moved Brianna out of her home is absolutely fucked up. But I believe, there are just rotten elements (people) who will use any excuse to spread terror, and will probably take whatever flag will allow them to do it more effectively (particularly under the anonymity blanket of the webs).

But beyond that, looking at this Name-calling is ridiculous, and seeing how both sides lose all objectivity, and ignore whatever actual legitimate concerns the other side has is the most depressing of all.

I give you the same advise that you gave, @alex be sympathetic, be empathetic but not just with the ones on "your" side. There is no "side", whether we want it or not, we are stuck with all areas of the industry, and all "gameplayers".

I agree, no-one should be harassed under any circumstance, that is established. But I do think there are some reasonable concerns in #GamerGate that are in fact being brushed under the rug because of their link to the aggression (which, the more I read the flimsier the actual link becomes). Stuff like shadowbanning in the Assange interview in reddit, add to the "conspiratorial feel", for sure, but that's not really what I mean.

A lot of the more problematic and serious allegations have been thoroughly ignored as if they were part of the unreasonable harassment. Like the particularly troublesome issue between Zoe Quinn and The Fine Young Capitalists, or many of the inverse harassment presented by @synthesis_landale . Both (all) the tendrils seem delving into less than graceful practices.

I got into a very polite discussion with Jonathan Blow (probably my most respected western developer) the other day, about the content of an article on the Escapist, that interviewed several male game developers, and came out mostly supporting #GG.

He was questioning the validity of the escapist as a whole as a news site. And I find that is also counterproductive. Shaming a group of professionals for presenting data (even if it happens to be against our point) shouldn't be a solution, it does not promote understanding or thoughtful dialogue. Particularly when the escapist has been pretty good about showing a lot of different opinions on the subject. It's not unreasonable, that they wanted to create debate, as they often do, since in general, the Escapist crowd is quite open to somewhat respectful discussion. (just a few weeks before they had a similar article with a mostly critical view on GG)

So yes, the IGF and IndieCade should want to clear their name, and I think there's no downside or shame in doing so (I honestly don't think they've done anything wrong, it could be an honest overlook). Because then GamerGate would have nothing to say against them.

I genuinely believe it is not unreasonable to aim to clarify connections between press and devs (I'm not saying banning, but clarifying), I think any industry should do so. I think it's also quite obvious that there should be clarity as to the judging of contests so that no judges have any invested interest in the competitor's product. I think men and woman are equally capable and valuable, and I find that in fact there has been a lot of sexism in and around games.

(but this has very little to do with game, I just find this is common sense)

Thing is, we can't fight for respect calling all dissenting parties "fucking motherf*ckers".
People in general, are people, even if we try to make them look like caricatures.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

I don't know how anyone can be on the side of Adam Baldwin and fucking 4chan.

Also check out this fun edit to that Escapist story:

Editor's Note #2: We have removed the testimony of Slade Villena, known as RogueStar, after we've received evidence that he has harassed some contributors to The Escapist. Due to our strong policy against all harassment and abuse, Villena's opinions will no longer be presented alongside those of his colleagues.

And guess who vetted all these male devs for this article? GG's IRC group.

@sydlanel: But I do think there are some reasonable concerns in #GamerGate that are in fact being brushed under the rug because of their link to the aggression"

This is my concern as well

Which ones, specifically?

I don't know how they could have marketed D4. I bought and played the game and I still don't know how one would go about doing that.

That's pretty much when I turn off. If you're still arguing about Zoe Quinn, I just don't know where to go.

It is odd that GTA V on PS4 isn't using the fact that PS Move works with it. I would've thought that would help it sell like crazy!?

D4 is on the front page of the store right now in their largest ad, for what its worth.

@kingclip: well that particular never got resolved, or at least the last I heard was still in conflict. And that is the sort of unsettling allegation that should naturally be explained and clarified ASAP.

I don't have any issue with Zoey or her games, I think she's a talented developer, but for that same reason, it is doubly puzzling. (and I didn't even want to bring her up, just wanted to specify that particular incident that apparently faded into the ether) I personally find really awful that she got harassed the way she did.

You see, I have made no accusations, I have just asked, but you're immediately treating me as if I couldn't be reasoned with or something.

Anyhow as I said, I'm not on any side. If I had to pick on knifepoint, I'm technically closer to being anti GG, but I still think that when you see a problem you should try to address it. Even if it's presented in an awful way.

@sydlanel: When one side is doing what it's doing, I'm on a side. The other side. This is not about ethics. This is about harassment. If this was about ethics, the GG people would be talking about huge corporations and nine-figure budgets, not indies.

@patrickklepek@alex dunno if you guys saw this, but man, this is depressing, especially when there is a empty space right there

You two keep speaking out. If the gamergate people feel that the extremists in their ranks do not represent their viewpoints and harm their intentions, they would expose the people perpetrating crimes. People are committing felonies cause they don't like women speaking out for the hobby they love as much as we do. It isn't social justice, it is the social reality. Just because these e terrorists hold the gun to the heads of the industry are babies throwing a fit. Everyone deserves to express their views. Hate that the vocal minority feels they are in the right here. They probably are proud to fart in a crowded elevator.

@sylect: Dude, this is not the hill you want to make your stand on. The community is spoiled, and whether it be the work of a few rotten apples or not, putting yourself on the side of GG is putting yourself in the company of misogynists, harassers, and yes, actual NeoNazis. If you have legitimate concerns about corruption in journalism (which is what GamerGate claims to be all about, in spite of its origins and public actions), find another name for your cause, because like it or not there's nobody who will take GG's complaints seriously anymore. I hate journalistic corruption (like publishers paying YouTubers who have styled themselves cultural tastemakers to say how great their games are, for example) as much as the next guy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to use the GG hashtag to express my concerns, because that hashtag is now synonymous with death threats.

@patrickklepek, your work is great and honestly some of my favorite stuff here (especially the articles). Keep it up.

@kingclip: but you see? you shunned the question and diverted to something that I also expressly condemned. Even if the "opposition" are really horrible people (and it seems only a portion of them are), but even if ALL of them were, that shouldn't prevent you or preclude you from analyzing your own shortcomings.

That is the most literal fallacy. Not because some things they say and do are wrong, all of the things they say and do are wrong. and even less, not because I am correct, am I beyond improvement or reproach. And lastly, not because their crime is worse than yours, does your crime cease to exist.

@sydlanel: If you're first argument involves Zoe Quinn, and your next argument involves acting like that Escapist piece was evidence of something as opposed to an embarrassing shit show, I just don't know where the conversation goes. This concept that the GG people deserve some sort of logical, calm engagement despite living in this echo chamber of bullshit is not one I subscribe to. If you want to talk about journalistic ethics, lemme know. It's a subject I have great interest in.

I was fine with Shadow of Mordor ending with quick time event because quick time events where used through out the game for different reasons so its not like it came out of no where.

@kingclip: I already did, but you decided my particular points were not even worth mentioning. Selective coverage is in fact, a big part of journalistic integrity. I already described the points that I find are worth discussing, and you ignored them.. so.. that

But hey you can put your hands to your ears until someone thinks the same as you do. I don't mind.