Giant Bomb Presents: Checking Your Blind Spots

Its incredibly unfair to post this on the internet. Its damn near impossible to discuss these issues. Theres parts that are fair in this interview but then she goes on to use terms like boys club and they in reference to male gamers. If you want things to be equal use equal terminology. The second I hear a double standard is the second I stop taking people seriously.

I can't believe Patrick is still posting this sexist content. How can someone possibly render a valid opinion of an individual based on their skin color, gender, or age? This "diversity" based on those qualifications is naive at best. Why not, instead, base diversity upon morals, ethics, beliefs; rather than skin color or gender?

@purplespandex: I agree with this I want new perspectives in games and debate on this subject but a lot of gender criticism around games is just bad.
I'm just not sure if its mainstream games media presentation of the issue or people taking this violent binary for or against stance.
Compared to film analysis, games debate comes across as extremely juvenile and uninformed about representation and narrative construction.
I still found this interview interesting though.

@johnbakosh: there's a reason Colbert satires the "I don't see color" mentality. Essentially the idea ignores that people of color have different experiences due to factors such as institutionalized and internalized oppression.

@kgdowley: No it does not. It refuses to automatically prescribe the societal assumptions that those factors of which you speak will affect an individual in a preordained manner. It refuses to accept an individual as anything less than that. Your statement infers that one should be degraded to their race alone as a measure of what their experiences in life entail. It is not the experiences that make a human, it is what a human takes from those experiences.

P.S- You should not take ethics lessons from a comedian.

@johnbakosh: its not that race alone decides a persons character but instead is one of many factors that influence someone's personality. Where you grew up, who your parents are, your socioeconomic status are some others.

@kgdowley: Ah, I see. I feel it is ultimately an individuals choice as to who they are, rather than societies. I can see you do not share this view point. Agree to disagree.

I find conversations about sexism in video games devolve into a lot of bitterness rather than constructive debate, and maybe the comments on this interview will prove to be no different. However, it's heartening that these sorts of topics still crop up despite all that. As Anna pointed out, all forms of media have problems with sexism but only video games seem to be pushing forward the notion it can or should be better. As a woman and someone who loves video games I'm extremely proud of this.

I did disagree with some of the things Anna said. For example I reject the idea that some genres of video games, like shooters, are inherently not interesting to women. I love shooters and know plenty of other women who do too. However, I did enjoy listening to this interview and am bummed out I didn't get to see the panel she was referencing.

Anyway, thanks for continuing to post content like this, Patrick. I know you may get a lot of negative feedback, but as someone who is directly effected by this conversation, I deeply appreciate it.

@johnbakosh:

I think what @kgdowley was trying to point out is that factors like racism are external. A person can choose how they react to these factors, but they are still always present in their life. To pretend that they don't exist at all isn't going to make them go away.

I'm all for expanding the horizon of where games are going; I really liked Gone Home and want to see more things like it, just don't take potshots at the classics or even most current games please. Too many times when these discussions come up it's about tearing down existing games, often great ones, because the main character has a certain set of genitals (that you never see, and don't actually exist). Take all the potshots you like at the worst offenders, like Duke Nukem Forever, but I've seen people go after Spelunky of all games; for having a female as one of three rescuable "damsels", and a male as a potential choice of characters to save her with. It's silly.
Anyway, kudos Patrick for sticking to your guns, and bringing this up every week. It certainly breeds discussion.

@nerfgunassassin: Very right. But assuming you know something intrinsic about a person, or that a person has some quality to them as a result of those factors is, as I said, naive at best. That is what Anna Megill asserts, and what I deny. A skin color or gender does not alone grant value. The soul behind those superficial traits does.

Great listen Patrick. Thanks!

I think Anna gave a very eloquent and thoughtful interview about a dynamic and ongoing topic. The more conversation we have (in a sensible, and intelligent manner), the more progress we make, I think.

You're cherry picking and twisting words. She's a feminist, not a fascist.

Probably one of the biggest hurdles for getting discussions about inclusivity and just making game character BETTER overall is the persistent derailing from those opposed (for whatever reason). Hanging on every little word and perceived misstep from people like Megill, Sarkessian, Petit over at GS...all this uproar ignores the very real concerns--which goes hand-in-hand with love--about the gaming community.

I'm glad Patrick and GB is providing a forum for these ideas, showing these issues have "legitimacy" to the ragers who think anyone's trying to eliminate/dilute their precious power fantasies.

Persona 4 was definitely enriched by including a lot of the "uncommon themes" mentioned into the narrative. Kanji Tatsumi would have been just another boring tough guy if the game didn't go deep into his personal struggles in the way that it did.

That's really all these people are trying to bring about; some variety in our stories. I'm all for people telling stories that go beyond the endeavors of an ordinary straight, white dude.

Good interview. I was there at her PAX panel. Interesting ground covered. Made me think a lot about how I can write beyond the straight-white-male prism.

If you'd like to see the actual PAX panel, it's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScPFart_Rig&feature=player_embedded#t=10

90% of games are made about straight, white males. Games are already being made mostly for a "narrow demographic". You disprove your own argument.

Furthermore, you are implying strongly that if the proportion of games made about straight, white men drops lower than it is now, that would be undesirable...that you consider 90% of games being about this narrow demographic a fair and equitable balance.

I think it's pretty easy to prove you mathematically, socially, and morally wrong here... hell you even do it yourself!

@johnsutherland: Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for doing this interview, definitely an important subject matter!

Yikes! Okay, I don't think you really saw my point. Making games for any specifically narrow demographic is a bad idea. Straight white guys included. It's totally true that many publishers focus on that demographic because they think that they're the majority of consumers. That's a problem. And we've seen games that were actually changed or held back because of those corporate interests. That sucks.

But when a straight white writer wants to tell a story about a straight white character, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Although, now, developers are being demonized for just telling stories they want to tell with the characters they want to create, and that is a BIG problem.

Consider all of the nonsense surrounding people boycotting and otherwise complaining about GTA V's 3 male leads. It's crystal clear that they had these 3 well defined and deep characters that they wanted to make a game about. No higher power forcing their hand. R* has creative control over their content. And yet they get accused of horrible things for not telling a story that other people wanted them to tell.

Pressuring games to include 'person type x' because they're underrepresented isn't equality, it's pandering through shaming, and it will just get us even further away from the diverse place where we all want to be.

The real movement is already happening. Easy access to publishing on the PC and low cost engines like Unity are letting an unprecedented number of folks make the games they want, and access through the next gen consoles will only see those minority voices be heard even louder. We just need more personal and less corporate voices to shine through in games, and it's happening right now!

When someone then calls one of those voices horrible things for doing nothing but not including a type of character they wanted to see, everybody looses.

Lets be honest here, anyone boycotting the game over that probably didn't play GTA to begin with. Its just empty posturing....

I'm also pretty sure that those folks are statistically insignificant. GTA is going to be a monster game without those literally tens of people....

Pretty rocking intro song, I almost didn't want to get to the interview part!

As for the interview itself - I really dislike this notion that people, or should I say males, are "scared" of having "their toys taken away" through the inclusions of female friendly writing and design. I honestly don't think this is the case. Obviously I can't speak for men everywhere but I don't think that many people are scared and confused, thinking that suddenly all shooters will disappear and we'll only have Sims styled games. In addition, the large vocal majority on the internet is composed of very young, inexperienced, uncultured and quite frankly pretty stupid youths - both male and female. Pointing your finger at ridiculous comments coming from 16 year old teen boys and saying "see, this proves our point" is a bit silly. There seems to be a lot of miscommunication and misunderstanding over some of the major issues in the industry in large part due to the clutter of clueless teen comments that cloud the more reasonable responses. Putting the "blame" so to speak, of Anita's rise to fame on angry males alone is a bit shortsighted. Both sides of the issue were just as guilty in promoting someone who has a very skewed and extreme outlook on seixsm into a prominent figure.

I'm all for female writers, strong female leads, interesting plot devices. What I don't like is this strangely condescending tone a lot of these talks take on, about how they have to calm the erratic males down like children and slowly explain to them how this whole sexism thing is bad bad bad but don't be scared, you can still play your shooty shooty Halo you big lug, girls just want to have fun too, now see that wasn't that bad, run along now!

You have a point with some aspects of the discussion, but you could easily make the argument that women are told that all the time when they ask for games to be slightly more inclusive, have a few more female characters that aren't just eye candy, etc. "Don't shoehorn in stuff against the artistic vision of the creator" is a great way of being condescending without really saying very much.

If you've read the response to Gamespot's GTA V review (more than 10,000 comments...oh wait, 15,000 now) and for many countless examples, it's the teen males who make the death and rape threats and hate comments to writers. Moaning about having misogyny taken away when it's a part of GTA (that's an actual comment). These are the people who are taking actions. So yeah, you kind of have to point at them if they're the most active. It comes at a point where you have to disable comments completely, which has happened at many game sites (Kotaku, RPS) and not just youtube.

Ok, so I misinterpreted your tone, at the very least and I apologize for the stronger than necessary reaction. That being said I think you're dead wrong about pressure and equality. What minority group in history has ever... ever gotten equal representation by politely asking the majority for it? Let's ask Gandhi or MLK about it.

People have every right to boycott GTA if it offends them somehow, just as you have every right to buy, play, and enjoy it. We definitely need to be having the discussion about whether dissenting voices are being unreasonable, shrill, condescending, etc., but we also have to remember that it goes both ways. I see more condescending tone in the anti-feminism camp by a long shot; video game discussion boards are endless oceans of "grow up and stop being so sensitive". This sentiment is about as unsympathetic, callous, and dismissive a one you could muster.

Therein lies the crux of my issue with this anti-feminist lot. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to deny the validity of another's point of view and not have to suffer the deservedly negative reputation associated with such an incredible lack of empathy.

Oh, you just don't like the *tone* of diversity talks? Last time I checked, here were the results from using various levels of communication:

Keep your head down, support the problematic works: "See?! There can't be a problem because you didn't SAY anything!"

Don't speak up, but support new inclusive games instead: "Why should we take you people seriously?! You don't even PLAY real games!"

Politely speak about how certain portrayals or omissions make you uncomfortable: "Please, stop WHINING. Everyone's so goddamn PC these days."

Provide nuanced, long-form critique: "If you care so damn much, make your own games. Keep yapping, I'm through listening to this crap."

Yell and actively campaign against the BS: "WHOA, calm down little lady/white knight! I can't take you seriously, all angry like that."

Forgive me if your precious feelings aren't considered after advocates have been patronized time and time again.

You're right, it totally does go both ways! ;)

Really though, this is simple. Extremists on all sides of anything are assholes. If someone displays that 'incredible lack of empathy', just don't listen to them. But at least recognize that a lot of it comes from the "feminist" side of this issue too.

But also, I make it a point to consider the arguments from any individual before I make up my mind. Just because I may fall into the "anti-feminist" camp to you (which is actually really weird to me, but that's another whole thread right there), doesn't mean that I am the same/have the same opinions as the other people you'd also put in that group. Hell, there are people on this site that share many of my opinions, but as soon as they start talking in a thread I know it's doomed, because they take those opinions to aggravatingly weird and offensive extremes.

In general, the us-versus-them mentality is what got us (humans) into this fucked up state of inequality to begin with, but in this current "conversation" in the games industry that duality only seems to be growing because the extremists (Anita-clones vs. Dude-Bros) are the ones getting all the attention.

Divisiveness is poison to progress, but it's the mantra coming from BOTH sides. MLK and Ghandi marched and spoke with people of all genders and all nationalities, and thus gained strength for their cause. Most of the more vocal "feminsts" talking about this issue are talking the Malcom X approach, which we know from history does not turn out as well...

Okay, that's it, this has just gone right off topic for this thread. Sorry!

Maybe I'm secretly sexist, but I don't think saying that is condescending at all. Not to play a game of analytical ping pong, but the same could be said if the roles were reversed and a female writer was trying to craft a poignant, female inclusive story, and they'd be asked to shoehorn in a few more doods in there for the male demographic. Listen I'm sure that women get the worse end of the stick every time - hanging out on public forums is proof enough that in 2013 there are still plenty of racists and bigots out there, somehow against all odds. But if the two sides are ever going to meet halfway it will have to happen in a civil manner, and not in this pseudo semi passive-aggressive, tonally condescending Leigh Alexander way, or the outright hostile and outright inane Anita way. I completely understand the frustration that women must feel when they bang their heads against this thing that in this day and age should be a non-issue and get ridiculous kitchen jokes in return. At the same time, you need to pick and choose your battles very carefully, because when you start crying wolf in terms of sexism, and especially claims of misogyny which is a really serious offense, then you will eventually reap the consequences of no one listening when something bad really does happen. Civility, in my opinion, has to be the key here - because otherwise we're just stuck in a vicious cycle of mockery without ever reaching any sort of understanding.

How's about no one fight for control like that? There's been too much of that playing king of the hill for the zeitgeist in Gen 7, I don't want it to continue on for Gen 8 under a new form.

There's plenty of condescension to go around, but I know which side feels smug superiority.

EDIT: Yes, those straight, white males. They must be all the same, every single one. Not like other groups, they're all different and special.

Patrick, keep covering this stuff. Even getting viewpoints I would disagree with (not the ones presented here) would be interesting because gender and sexuality and diversity in games are the defining issue in solving the narratologist's issues. Discussions of gender/sexuality/diversity make a perfect companion to your coverage of avant-garde indie titles in Worth Playing, exploring the edges of gameplay.

Anna, nailed the interview, good job.

I find her viewpoint interesting considering the fact that she worked as a writer on playboy the mansion, about as objectifying as you can get.

You mean that PS2 game? Man, that game sucked. Or did it? Looking at its reception, it seems like it wasn't that bad, just flawed in its execution.

I will admit I haven't watched the talk, but even in this interview she uses that condescending tone on occasion. For example, she describes individuals who might oppose these ideas upfront as "ranting men's rights activists" who just need to "calm down". Now there are supporters of both men's and women's rights who take it a little too far, to the point where it borders on misogyny/misandry, but there are legitimate concerns that those groups lobby for. The characterization of either group as emotional, ranting individuals is condescending and offensive.

That being said, I did enjoy this interview, and I look forward to more content covering the subject. While I might be the "typical gamer", I appreciate new perspectives in video games and would love to see more of it. A good story in a video game is extremely important to me, and if a non-traditional perspective improves or changes that story, I'm all for it.

Keep up the good work Scoops.

@archer88: Hmm, interesting. I didn't think the tone in the interview was condescending at all. I don't think she was dismissing anyone who disagrees as a ranting MRA type, but rather that those specific ones who take it too far are always going to substitute ranting for listening. If someone opens a discussion with "go back to the kitchen," maybe condescension is a legitimate response.

Man, this interview was going pretty well until she gave an example of the changes she's made to Murdered: Soul Suspect.

Seriously, you'd think someone who believes they are presenting a balanced or moderate perspective would have even the remotest grasp upon subtlety instead of simply doing what so many fear from "feminists" (I put that in quotes as I'm not sure if she self-identifies that way or not).

Sigh. The entire conversation lost all credibility with me there.

ED: Also, I came here for The Last of Us and left disappointed.

I was on board until they both began to rag on the "straight white male stories are boring" talk, and even going so far to say "If you have a character who's gay, a person of color, or a woman, the story practically writes itself, and it's more original."

Um, no? I don't know about Patrick and Anna, but games like Nier, Shadow of the Colossus, The Last of Us, Asura's Wrath, Spec Ops: The Line, and others all have straight white male protagonists, but the themes of the story seem pretty universal to me. I doubt anything would change if Captain Walker was gay, for example, so no, writing non-traditional characters does not automatically make them interesting.

Naughty Dog apparently has an Ellen Page blind spot.