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    Team Fortress 2

    Game » consists of 12 releases. Released Oct 10, 2007

    The long-awaited sequel to the class-based first-person shooter Team Fortress Classic sports a unique cartoony visual style, more accessible gameplay, and a very large amount of updates and new features since its original release.

    TF2: Falls (PT 1)

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    Akrid

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    Edited By Akrid
     Hi there! This is a blog about all things polygonal. As in, those things you've been shooting, stabbing, and generally murdering since 1997.          
     
    It's been nearly two months now since my last blog. My utter failure to execute on my past two projects (and the outcome of one that I deemed not worth showing) brought my motivation down a few pegs. I've been feeling the itch to get back into working for at least one of those two months now (it's comforting to know that I've developed a genuine craving), but even then I felt the glaring absence of a kernel of a good idea. I felt that if I tried to execute anything lacking this element, my work would remain the same.  
     
    But you know what? That's bullshit. There are no great ideas, it's only the execution that matters, because I know that people will enjoy - on some level - the vision that I have in my minds eye. Following out that vision is the only barrier between me and where I want to be, and the only way you can possibly get to where you want to be is to keep moving towards that point, suffering through whatever is standing in the way. If you want it in a metaphorical format: It's a better idea to butt your head against a wall instead of waiting for a sledgehammer to be delivered to you. So that's my advice, I hope it wasn't too "motivational". Anyway.

     How 'Bout that Team Fortress 2?

     I've been playing a decent amount of TF2 since it went free-to-play, and I love it! When I began playing, I was immediately struck by the beautiful, truly timeless art style, and the sheer ingenuity found in the design of the game. It occurred to me that Team Fortress 2 may be the most well designed FPS I've ever played. If we compare it to it's peers in terms of map design, none of them hold a candle: COD has always been a somewhat rough collection of ideas (It would be like totally wicked if we had like a window here and you'd be like BLAT BLAT BLAT), and BFBC2 requires even less finesse as far as maps are concerned (Okay, middle-eastern town, scatter with vehicles aaaand done).  
     
    Of course, that's a pretty unfair summation, as there are very much "good" and "bad" maps for those games, but you can't deny that TF2 tends to take a little more finesse then many others in the genre. Balancing the games 9 classes is an absolute feat when so much of their effectiveness comes from the ways they can utilize and exploit the map to their advantage. It must have been an absolutely terrifying prospect for the folks at Valve, attempting to build around a game that had such a complex core, to the point where I'm even amazed they went through with it. And pulled it off to boot! 
     
    So obviously, that short meditation on this game led me to thinking: The tools are there, I have less than a quarter of the know-how: Let's do this. 

    And Lo, 

     
         It's pretty liberating to be able to run around the thing I just made after all the times I've waited for 10 hour renders...
         It's pretty liberating to be able to run around the thing I just made after all the times I've waited for 10 hour renders...
    thus began my journey into the source engine. I followed a short tutorial through their proprietary editor, Hammer, and the image above is the result. It's built purely with something they call "Brushes", highly adaptable pieces of geometry that will bear any type of reshaping with fairly clean results. That door works too! Courtesy of "Entities", simple and intuitive little functions that handle most of the interactive bits of the game.  These two tools and many more directly associated with them are what the editor comprises of.
     
    I found my first hitch: I have to use their kind of crappy editor to make this thing. It's certainly not bad, but oh how great it would be to be able to export a fully furnished map from my 3D package of choice. Importing/exporting is certainly possible (and necessary if you want to do anything complicated), but - from what I gather - cannot be used exclusively. The major parts of the level (I.E., walls, floors, ceilings) should comprise of brushes. Nevertheless, I thought it prudent to initially create my level in a familiar environment, and so I decided to go ahead and make it externally before finalizing as needed within the Hammer editor. 
     
    My first thought was focused on developing a theme for my map in order to establish a style from which to work from. Honestly, looking at the current list of maps it seemed like all the good ones were taken! A dam, a sawmill, a granary, and that one with the trains. How am I expected to beat trains? Eventually I settled upon the idea of a waterfall. Not as good as trains, but it's the best I could do. I also just kind of assumed it was possible to do a waterfall in source. I still don't know if it is. I have a feeling that I opened a large can of worms when I picked this theme. The implications are slowly sinking in.
     
    Art. 
    Art. 
    So, theme established, I began blindly designing my map. I did the quick and dirty schematic you see here, flying directly in the face of aesthetics for once and utilizing it simply as a drawing board for my vague ideas. What was produced through this steered me towards the idea of a CTF map, incidentally the hardest to make... 
     
    I even tried at developing some "concept art" at a point, but unfortunately my hands failed me again and I was unable to put what was in my mind to paper. I decided to take it in to the only medium I was capable in: 3D.                     
     
    Simple. Basic. Primitive. 
    Simple. Basic. Primitive. 
    Using my swiftly scribbled schematic as a reference, I made the land and buildings. It was fairly easy to get it to 'click' from there, as the idea in my head now gained a tangible dimension. I filled out the blindspots that were present and changed the idea of the map considerably. I created interiors for the base, something that I had previously not given a single thought to, and then turned my attention to the midpoint of the map. This still remains my biggest concern, since I'm not entirely clear on how I'm going to make the most important area in the map interesting to play in. 
     
    Current state of things. 
    Current state of things. 
    I then took my completely unrefined ideas and started to give them additional consideration, both aesthetically and design-wise. But mostly aesthetically. I admit, I am truly clueless when it comes to figuring out how to make this map an actually fun one.   
     
    I'm giving myself a meaty deadline for this one: August 21st. From my progress thus far it seems pretty likely that I'll need all, if not more then that time, but I'll mostly be engaged in other things past that date so I have little leeway. Till then, I will be reporting in on my progress at appropriate intervals.

     Help Me Out

    I've noticed from my older blogs that many expressed some trepidation when commenting and criticizing my work simply because they felt they lacked knowledge of 3D. First of all, I don't care; criticism really helps me out, so fire away. Secondly, in this case, you guys have just as much expertise as I when it comes to video games, if not more. As far as I'm concerned, most of you guys are qualified to be a designer already. So I'm calling on the collective powers of Giantbomb in order to figure out how to make this rough copy eventually work, in the gameplay sense.
     
     Rest assured, this map will get made, but I fear that it's primary function will prove less then fun if I'm the only one thinking on it. All you see is not even close to final. Hell, it's unplayable in this state. So I'd like to hear some suggested changes from you guys, drastic or small. It would help me out infinitely if you can provide me some sort of feedback.
     
     Here are a few more renders that are a bit more "diagnostical", to give a clearer picture of what I have going on here so far: 
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    Akrid

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    #1  Edited By Akrid
     Hi there! This is a blog about all things polygonal. As in, those things you've been shooting, stabbing, and generally murdering since 1997.          
     
    It's been nearly two months now since my last blog. My utter failure to execute on my past two projects (and the outcome of one that I deemed not worth showing) brought my motivation down a few pegs. I've been feeling the itch to get back into working for at least one of those two months now (it's comforting to know that I've developed a genuine craving), but even then I felt the glaring absence of a kernel of a good idea. I felt that if I tried to execute anything lacking this element, my work would remain the same.  
     
    But you know what? That's bullshit. There are no great ideas, it's only the execution that matters, because I know that people will enjoy - on some level - the vision that I have in my minds eye. Following out that vision is the only barrier between me and where I want to be, and the only way you can possibly get to where you want to be is to keep moving towards that point, suffering through whatever is standing in the way. If you want it in a metaphorical format: It's a better idea to butt your head against a wall instead of waiting for a sledgehammer to be delivered to you. So that's my advice, I hope it wasn't too "motivational". Anyway.

     How 'Bout that Team Fortress 2?

     I've been playing a decent amount of TF2 since it went free-to-play, and I love it! When I began playing, I was immediately struck by the beautiful, truly timeless art style, and the sheer ingenuity found in the design of the game. It occurred to me that Team Fortress 2 may be the most well designed FPS I've ever played. If we compare it to it's peers in terms of map design, none of them hold a candle: COD has always been a somewhat rough collection of ideas (It would be like totally wicked if we had like a window here and you'd be like BLAT BLAT BLAT), and BFBC2 requires even less finesse as far as maps are concerned (Okay, middle-eastern town, scatter with vehicles aaaand done).  
     
    Of course, that's a pretty unfair summation, as there are very much "good" and "bad" maps for those games, but you can't deny that TF2 tends to take a little more finesse then many others in the genre. Balancing the games 9 classes is an absolute feat when so much of their effectiveness comes from the ways they can utilize and exploit the map to their advantage. It must have been an absolutely terrifying prospect for the folks at Valve, attempting to build around a game that had such a complex core, to the point where I'm even amazed they went through with it. And pulled it off to boot! 
     
    So obviously, that short meditation on this game led me to thinking: The tools are there, I have less than a quarter of the know-how: Let's do this. 

    And Lo, 

     
         It's pretty liberating to be able to run around the thing I just made after all the times I've waited for 10 hour renders...
         It's pretty liberating to be able to run around the thing I just made after all the times I've waited for 10 hour renders...
    thus began my journey into the source engine. I followed a short tutorial through their proprietary editor, Hammer, and the image above is the result. It's built purely with something they call "Brushes", highly adaptable pieces of geometry that will bear any type of reshaping with fairly clean results. That door works too! Courtesy of "Entities", simple and intuitive little functions that handle most of the interactive bits of the game.  These two tools and many more directly associated with them are what the editor comprises of.
     
    I found my first hitch: I have to use their kind of crappy editor to make this thing. It's certainly not bad, but oh how great it would be to be able to export a fully furnished map from my 3D package of choice. Importing/exporting is certainly possible (and necessary if you want to do anything complicated), but - from what I gather - cannot be used exclusively. The major parts of the level (I.E., walls, floors, ceilings) should comprise of brushes. Nevertheless, I thought it prudent to initially create my level in a familiar environment, and so I decided to go ahead and make it externally before finalizing as needed within the Hammer editor. 
     
    My first thought was focused on developing a theme for my map in order to establish a style from which to work from. Honestly, looking at the current list of maps it seemed like all the good ones were taken! A dam, a sawmill, a granary, and that one with the trains. How am I expected to beat trains? Eventually I settled upon the idea of a waterfall. Not as good as trains, but it's the best I could do. I also just kind of assumed it was possible to do a waterfall in source. I still don't know if it is. I have a feeling that I opened a large can of worms when I picked this theme. The implications are slowly sinking in.
     
    Art. 
    Art. 
    So, theme established, I began blindly designing my map. I did the quick and dirty schematic you see here, flying directly in the face of aesthetics for once and utilizing it simply as a drawing board for my vague ideas. What was produced through this steered me towards the idea of a CTF map, incidentally the hardest to make... 
     
    I even tried at developing some "concept art" at a point, but unfortunately my hands failed me again and I was unable to put what was in my mind to paper. I decided to take it in to the only medium I was capable in: 3D.                     
     
    Simple. Basic. Primitive. 
    Simple. Basic. Primitive. 
    Using my swiftly scribbled schematic as a reference, I made the land and buildings. It was fairly easy to get it to 'click' from there, as the idea in my head now gained a tangible dimension. I filled out the blindspots that were present and changed the idea of the map considerably. I created interiors for the base, something that I had previously not given a single thought to, and then turned my attention to the midpoint of the map. This still remains my biggest concern, since I'm not entirely clear on how I'm going to make the most important area in the map interesting to play in. 
     
    Current state of things. 
    Current state of things. 
    I then took my completely unrefined ideas and started to give them additional consideration, both aesthetically and design-wise. But mostly aesthetically. I admit, I am truly clueless when it comes to figuring out how to make this map an actually fun one.   
     
    I'm giving myself a meaty deadline for this one: August 21st. From my progress thus far it seems pretty likely that I'll need all, if not more then that time, but I'll mostly be engaged in other things past that date so I have little leeway. Till then, I will be reporting in on my progress at appropriate intervals.

     Help Me Out

    I've noticed from my older blogs that many expressed some trepidation when commenting and criticizing my work simply because they felt they lacked knowledge of 3D. First of all, I don't care; criticism really helps me out, so fire away. Secondly, in this case, you guys have just as much expertise as I when it comes to video games, if not more. As far as I'm concerned, most of you guys are qualified to be a designer already. So I'm calling on the collective powers of Giantbomb in order to figure out how to make this rough copy eventually work, in the gameplay sense.
     
     Rest assured, this map will get made, but I fear that it's primary function will prove less then fun if I'm the only one thinking on it. All you see is not even close to final. Hell, it's unplayable in this state. So I'd like to hear some suggested changes from you guys, drastic or small. It would help me out infinitely if you can provide me some sort of feedback.
     
     Here are a few more renders that are a bit more "diagnostical", to give a clearer picture of what I have going on here so far: 
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    BombKareshi

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    #2  Edited By BombKareshi

    I like your theme. The buildings are looking pretty neat. I hope I get to play this one day!

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    RagingLion

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    #3  Edited By RagingLion

    I'm interested that you've started looking into Source as I'm currently aiming to create a game that I will probably make in that.  As things currently stand what would be the best way to make fairly complex 3D models (of a size that they would fit into a room) as far as you know?  Would you make it outside of Hammer or any other Source tools and import it in or do it in another way?  What are the issues that you know around putting 3D models into a level that a game designer in Source should therefore be aware of?
     
    Valve are definitely aware that Hammer isn't the most user-friendly editor.  They've said that one of the primary things they're currently working on in the company is to improve their tools for themselves and also everyone else who uses them.
     
    Isn't there a waterfall in the corner of the KOTH_Sawmill map or am I just imagining that and it's just a small lake with a tunnel around the edge of it?  It terms of thinks to think about in terms of gameplay with the middle of your map:

    • Should you create an alternate route to distribute the conflict so that is doesn't just centre on one choke point and allow for the element of a surprise attack?
    • Think about where the snipers will position themselves and very carefully about exactly what they will be able to see from that viewpoint.
    • Think about where likely places for sentry placement will be and how easy it will be for demomen to take them out.
    • Might be a good idea to have a route only accessible with the scout using the double jump.
    • Think about having a safe place for spies to uncloak behind enemy lines (or not!)
    • Where to place ammo and health crates - and if they are the big/small or medium pick-ups
    • Think about where teleporters might be able to go and how that will change the dynamics of the level.
    Those are a few things off the top of my head.
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    Akrid

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    #4  Edited By Akrid
    @BombKareshi: Thanks! I hope you do too! 
     
    @RagingLion: Yes, if you want to make anything more complex then basic level geometry it's necessary to import them from an external program. It's quite a complicated procedure, but they have a pretty decent developer wiki that will help you out. I'll lay down the basic procedure though, so you don't have to search around their wiki too much. Though I just started, so some of this information may very well be wrong...

      Valve are definitely aware that Hammer isn't the most user-friendly editor.  They've said that one of the primary things they're currently working on in the company is to improve their tools for themselves and also everyone else who uses them.

     That's good to know that they know it's kind of a pain.  
     

    Isn't there a waterfall in the corner of the KOTH_Sawmill map or am I just imagining that and it's just a small lake with a tunnel around the edge of it?

    Oh yeah! I'm pretty sure there is. I'll have to check it out and see how they've handled it. 
     
    1. The grey paths show an underground area that I'm planning on putting in. It's similar to 2fort's tunnels. But it does stem from the same midpoint... Maybe I'll make another route that goes under the lake or something. You're right, it is a little too chokepointy. 
    2. Yeah, my main concern with that is the visibility across the lake, but I really don't want to clutter up the view with blockades. I'm thinking I'll have to restrict line of sight severely near the base. 
    3.  Thinking now I don't foresee any particular advantage or disadvantage for engineers interior-wise, but there may be some issues with these wide open spaces. Especially with the wrangler. 
    4. I'm actually probably going to take out that ramp and make it a rocket-jump height sort of thing. Again cribbing from 2fort, I really liked how in that map the soldiers and scouts can get across and decimate the snipers. 
    5. That is an excellent point! I totally didn't consider that... I think I've played like 2 minutes of spy... 
    6.  I think it's safe to wait a while before I start considering those. 
    7. Good idea, also something I didn't consider. I suppose the uncloak shares the same sort of spot.
    Thanks very much for your ideas, once again you've helped me tremendously.
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    felixculpa

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    #5  Edited By felixculpa

    You seem to have gotten a fair deal of good tips so far and I'll just say that  for the center of the map to try and keep it simple. Have an open area where there are both a couple of choices for exists and entrances. It should be simple to get out and in. If you are feeling experimental keep it further back in the map where (probably) least of the action is happening. These are just things I'd want out of a map in tf2.

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    sweep

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    #6  Edited By sweep  Moderator

    This is awesome! I have bookmarked this blog and I shall return to read when I a sober. I have been meaning to make a TF2 map for ages, it's one of those things that I'm constantly forgetting to do...

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    wadtomaton

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    #7  Edited By wadtomaton

    Reading this makes me want to get off my ass (so to speak) and get back into doing levels and 3d in general. Looking forward to seeing progress updates :)

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    TaliciaDragonsong

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    #8  Edited By TaliciaDragonsong

    I'm keeping my eye on this, looks good.
     
    Good luck!

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    SoylentGreen

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    #9  Edited By SoylentGreen

    Oh man, this brings me back a few years. I never made anything for TF2, but I definitely screwed around enough in Hammer.

    I think that waterfalls were a weird texture/model mix, but don't quote me on that. Doesn't cs_militia have a waterfall? It comes decompiled with CS:S, so it couldn't hurt to look.

    Just remember to throw the "nodraw" texture onto everything the player will never be able to see, and have as many alternate routes as you can without cluttering up the map.

    I might be remembering incorrectly, or they might have changed this, but I think that you're only allowed to have one body of "fancy" (good-looking) water, and that all others have to be of a less graphically-intensive type. Something to keep in mind, I guess.

    Man, I gotta go look at my maps for a while.

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    Ron_Graphite

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    #10  Edited By Ron_Graphite

    Good stuff here. The Pencil Council will be contacting you shortly about possible product placement opportunities. 

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    Akrid

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    #11  Edited By Akrid
    @FelixCulpa said:

    You seem to have gotten a fair deal of good tips so far and I'll just say that  for the center of the map to try and keep it simple. Have an open area where there are both a couple of choices for exists and entrances. It should be simple to get out and in. If you are feeling experimental keep it further back in the map where (probably) least of the action is happening. These are just things I'd want out of a map in tf2.

    Noted. Thanks for the suggestion!  

    @Sweep said:

    This is awesome! I have bookmarked this blog and I shall return to read when I a sober. I have been meaning to make a TF2 map for ages, it's one of those things that I'm constantly forgetting to do...

    Thanks man!  

    @demonknightinuyasha said:

    Reading this makes me want to get off my ass (so to speak) and get back into doing levels and 3d in general. Looking forward to seeing progress updates :)

    Go for it! So far I'm finding it to be quite a fun - and challenging - project.  

    @TaliciaDragonsong said:

    I'm keeping my eye on this, looks good.  Good luck!

    Thanks! I'll do my best.  
     
    @SoylentGreen said:

    Oh man, this brings me back a few years. I never made anything for TF2, but I definitely screwed around enough in Hammer.

    I think that waterfalls were a weird texture/model mix, but don't quote me on that. Doesn't cs_militia have a waterfall? It comes decompiled with CS:S, so it couldn't hurt to look.

    Just remember to throw the "nodraw" texture onto everything the player will never be able to see, and have as many alternate routes as you can without cluttering up the map.

    I might be remembering incorrectly, or they might have changed this, but I think that you're only allowed to have one body of "fancy" (good-looking) water, and that all others have to be of a less graphically-intensive type. Something to keep in mind, I guess.

    Man, I gotta go look at my maps for a while.


    Yeah, I'm hearing about a bunch of "unconfirmed" waterfalls now. Gonna have to check them out. 
     
    Thanks for the tips! I have just the one body of water, but it's a pretty big one. Hopefully that won't be too much of an issue... 
     
    @Ron_Graphite said:
    Good stuff here. The Pencil Council will be contacting you shortly about possible product placement opportunities. 
     
    I await your call. 

    Am I to understand that this blog is now featured?! That's fantastic! Though for some reason I only saw it with my own eyes just the once and then it disappeared from the front page! But between my friends testimony, pimp my profile consistently proccing, and this influx of comments, I can only assume that it's up there for everybody else?
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    Kyreo

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    #12  Edited By Kyreo

    Awesome stuff. Be sure to send a link to Ahmad metallic when you finish the map so he can trhow it up on his server so we can all play. :D

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    KosmoK

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    #13  Edited By KosmoK

    A modo user. How refreshing to see. Make sure to post your stuff on the Luxology forums if you aren't already. Best resource there is. Keep it up.

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    Akrid

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    #14  Edited By Akrid
    @Kyreo said:

    Awesome stuff. Be sure to send a link to Ahmad metallic when you finish the map so he can trhow it up on his server so we can all play. :D

    That would be awesome! Hopefully I can make it fun enough to stay in the map cycle for a decent length of time. 
     
    @KosmoK said:
    A modo user. How refreshing to see. Make sure to post your stuff on the Luxology forums if you aren't already. Best resource there is. Keep it up.
    I've lurked there ever since I started using modo. It is indeed the best resource one could ask for.
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    medacris

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    #15  Edited By medacris

    I'm not a map person, so I'm not going to offer any suggestions other than to keep up the good work, and to finish as soon as you can, so we can all test it out.

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    ajamafalous

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    #16  Edited By ajamafalous

    @RagingLion pretty much gave you most of the best TF2 map tips you could ask for. My one word of advise, coming from a Scout main, is to have multiple open paths (which you seem to already have), and don't make narrow chokepoints. Narrow chokepoints aren't fun for anybody, except maybe a camping (read: highly skilled (read: sarcasm)) Demo or a Soldier spamming rockets. A narrow chokepoint, or a section with an easily-defendable/out-of-reach sentry completely invalidates a Scout, and that's the quickest way to make me stop playing your map.

    So please, I beg of you, don't make the chokepoints suck. I'd be glad to help you test out your map when it gets into its later stages too, if you need to enlist some people for that.

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    Akrid

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    #17  Edited By Akrid
    @medacris said:

    I'm not a map person, so I'm not going to offer any suggestions other than to keep up the good work, and to finish as soon as you can, so we can all test it out.

    Thanks, I'll try and make it good.
     
    @ajamafalous said:

    @RagingLion pretty much gave you most of the best TF2 map tips you could ask for. My one word of advise, coming from a Scout main, is to have multiple open paths (which you seem to already have), and don't make narrow chokepoints. Narrow chokepoints aren't fun for anybody, except maybe a camping (read: highly skilled (read: sarcasm)) Demo or a Soldier spamming rockets. A narrow chokepoint, or a section with an easily-defendable/out-of-reach sentry completely invalidates a Scout, and that's the quickest way to make me stop playing your map.

    So please, I beg of you, don't make the chokepoints suck. I'd be glad to help you test out your map when it gets into its later stages too, if you need to enlist some people for that.

    Good advice. As someone who has not a large amount of experience with the scout, an opinion from someone who does is very useful. I'm still pondering how to take some power away from engineers. Interior-wise I think I'm good, but I'll have to handle the platform beside the main entrance with care. As for chokepoints, the main one in the middle is the most choke-y as there's only one alternative path, and I'm thinking that a scout will be able to avoid actually going through the building. That sound good? Am I wrong in thinking that an enclosed space like that building is a scouts worst enemy? 
     
    I've just thought of a pretty dramatic change that I might make. It'll undoubtedly delay the map some but I think it'll be a lot better for it if I manage to implement it properly.  
     
    I'm really hyped now. If I come back next week in deep despair, remind me of how awesome I felt at this moment.
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    crushed

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    #18  Edited By crushed

    Think about where ammo and health would be located. Would they be near chokepoints or where the front lines would be so people can fall back to heal up? Near a good sentry spot? Can a Soldier or Demo rocket jump upon leaving spawn, and find a health pack nearby upon landing?

    And as Raging Lion pointed out, TF2 is based on flow. It's a game where it's very easy to defend, so multiple passageways allowing attackers to come through from multiple angles are a must. Chokepoints are killer. They should be good to defend with a coordinated team, but not too hard to attack. Chokepoints and large amounts of fighting should naturally be around or near the capture points, not random areas between them.

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    theguy

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    #19  Edited By theguy

    A lot of good suggestions so far, the only thing I can recommend (If you haven't done this already) is to play some valve maps on your own (Try training I'm not sure if you can remove the bots altogether) and really study them. Play each class and try to notice things you wouldn't when playing or viewing the maps in an editor. Of course you want to make an original map but you should definitely look at those already implemented for pointers on choke points etc. Also if you haven't already try the developer commentary, I think I remember some comments about good map design in there. 
     
    Looks great so far, I really like the waterfall idea. I'll keep an eye on the blog and look forward to playing the map.

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    Akrid

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    #20  Edited By Akrid
    @Crushed said:

    Think about where ammo and health would be located. Would they be near chokepoints or where the front lines would be so people can fall back to heal up? Near a good sentry spot? Can a Soldier or Demo rocket jump upon leaving spawn, and find a health pack nearby upon landing?

    And as Raging Lion pointed out, TF2 is based on flow. It's a game where it's very easy to defend, so multiple passageways allowing attackers to come through from multiple angles are a must. Chokepoints are killer. They should be good to defend with a coordinated team, but not too hard to attack. Chokepoints and large amounts of fighting should naturally be around or near the capture points, not random areas between them.

    Good point about the rocket jumping, I hadn't thought of that. I'll be thinking about item placements a little later though, after I'm fairly certain of what the map is going to be like.
     
    A change I'm in the process of making should allow me to make another path over the midpoint, for a total of 3 paths.  I can easily add a fourth if it's needed, but that may even be too much dilution...
     
    @theguy said:
    A lot of good suggestions so far, the only thing I can recommend (If you haven't done this already) is to play some valve maps on your own (Try training I'm not sure if you can remove the bots altogether) and really study them. Play each class and try to notice things you wouldn't when playing or viewing the maps in an editor. Of course you want to make an original map but you should definitely look at those already implemented for pointers on choke points etc. Also if you haven't already try the developer commentary, I think I remember some comments about good map design in there.  Looks great so far, I really like the waterfall idea. I'll keep an eye on the blog and look forward to playing the map.
     I feel like I'm cutting it pretty close in regards to my deadline. I'm not too sure how much time I can spend investigating maps and listening to commentary, though I'm sure it'll help me immensely if I did. I did take a look at CS_militia's waterfall last night however, and I think I know how I'm going to handle it. Gonna take a lot of elbow grease though.
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    LamoTheClown

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    #21  Edited By LamoTheClown

    I've played this game a ridiculous (unhealthy) amount. And from what I can tell you seem to be off to a great start. I spend my time playing evenly between 5 or 6 classes and I think that 3 routes is enough. So here's my two cents:
     
    Check out a modified version of ctf_2fort called ctf_2fort_saraya. It's the pinnacle of what a good ctf map should be (in my opinion). It allows for more variation a alternative routes. As in 2fort, make sure that not every route leads directly to the intel room. 2fort has three ways to enter into the fort, but only two ways to get to the intelligence. This allows for high variability in a player's attack options because theoretically, six different routes could be taken to get from your base to the enemy's intel. Its also great because the top entrance is only available to scouts, demomen, and soldiers. Any map with a top level like this where snipers are present need this kind of class-exclusive entrance. Koth_harvest has an entire roof available to snipers but the roof is easily accessed by certain other enemy classes. It also makes playing these three classes more relevant on offense.
     
    Speaking of top levels, they're just plain awesome for the scout. Maps with multiple levels are way more fun than maps with only a few. Try maybe allowing roof access for scouts to jump around on. Or even just tall rocks. It would be even better if there were an entire route from base to base solely above ground level (a la 2fort).  Also if the snipers can see each other, its pretty epic (a la 2fort). This is my main complaint against koth_lakeside.
     
    Here are some things to keep in mind when considering class balance:
     
    Tight, winding, short corridors favor pyros and heavies. 
    Paths which exit into wide open spaces favor snipers.
    Rooms with one entrance/exit favor demoman and engineers.
    Wide paths allow spies to easily get behind enemy lines.
    Upper levels make it easier for scouts to get away.
    Rocks and other obstacles in open spaces favor the medic (The medic needs something to hide behind while he heals other players, since he's most targeted class) and encourage clever engineering. You can see this in pl_badwater.
     
    BUT IF YOU REMEMBER ONLY ONE THING, it's that options are key.
     
    I you have a base with only one ground floor entrance make it two (like 2fort). If you have an intel room with only one entrance make it 2, etc. etc. even if the entrances are right next to each other and lead to he exact same place. This discourages camping. But of course there's a fine line between options and chaos.
     
    I'd love to be able to test this out once you have it ready.

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    #22  Edited By Akrid
    @LamoTheClown: I'm not really sure what you see in saraya, since from what I can tell the only significant change it makes is a ramp up from the water, but to each his own I suppose. I'm fairly happy with the routing I have at this point, but it's gonna take some testing to see how it really ticks. 
     
    My map has three distinct levels, but just the one houses the majority of the map. It might be a good idea to add a bit more interest to the other levels. 

      Tight, winding, short corridors favor pyros and heavies. 

    I don't have too many of those, unfortunately. But it's a conundrum on a CTF map: I don't want to extend the distance between the two flags by too much. If I do it may get to the point where it's impossible to actually capture a flag. 
     
    Thanks for the rest of the tips! I'll take them in to consideration.

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