OK the beta dash has a new layout and lets just say there was more space for crap including ads and mark of the ninja was shown for at least a week as a icon on the home and game screen. when it was working right and then that bug was fixed after we bitched about it. oh and everybody in the beta or alpha testing has already bitched about the ads and still bitch at every test dashboard they do not go away they do somethings we ask but they will not get rid of this crap.

If you thought it was bad before we bitched you should have seen it before it was all ads and they took the biggist spaces.

When the update hits the xbox you will have more room for ADS and non ads on the screen and the xbox live game of the week is shown most of the time.

Also the games tab is not burried anymore it is closer to the home screen and it is bigger.

my braking of the NDA is over.

The apple fan boy should be in the beta I thought that was his job......OH wait it's to play and look at the crap nobody cares about like what games are on apple crap and macs... he must have been distracted by the over priced iphone 5 crap that has no real games on it and forgot to have microsoft update his xbox ....never mind

he Is is complaining about a Dashboard layout that is going away very soon Oh i fell sad console noobs have to put up with that windows 8 metro crap and do not have a choice I would hate to be you.

@Jamesesdad: Again agree to disagree, sir. You definitely are not a non-fanboy, you already coloured yourself as biased by the $ in MS, and .

I have all the systems too (two 360s, PS3, Wii, DS, 3DS, PSP, PC, Mac, etc), and choose to pay for the best services for my dollar, so I don't feel fleeced at all. I get the most out of my money, PS+ is just not worth MY money, you can do what you like with yours I don't care. I do like Steam but the argument was for comparing paid premium online services on game consoles.

I just expressed my opinion that GB does not have a dissenting opinion to Patrick's current tirade against XBL (ads, indie games, & fees) and his push for PS+ as a equivalent service worth comparing. I don't think it is after my 3 months of PS+ experience (that was gifted to me) and my +7 years with XBL the services don't compare, and it just lead to podcasts & articles with no debate on the subject. There are a lot of people like me are willing to pay for a good secure reliable service like XBL (remember the PSN downtime and stolen credit cards, I do and the hassle it caused me) and feel that it is a valuable, not because there is no alternative but because it is worth the money, so there must be a counter point to his. I would have liked a discussion on it.

And yes it is worth paying for well maintained publicly owned private courts at my local municipal community centre which don't have any of those annoying things you describe.

You will be the last person I'll reply to in this post as this is just sad to see that only Sony & Steam fanboys want to reply back spouting platform propaganda. At least I can be proud that the fools who did reply created accounts (1 post really, lol) just to reply back to little old me. Cool story bro.

Bad Klepek. "Build momentum forward" sounds like horrible marketing drivel. Are you auditioning for a PR job? And these process stories are pretty shitty. They have nothing to do with what's really interesting about video games.

Another way that Klepek doesn't really fit into the Bomb Crew.

Can't stand the new "Metro' UI for XBox360. After M$ changed it to Metro, I changed my 360 so it starts the game, and not the UI first, so I no longer see ANYTHING unless 'I" want to see it.

I use the games tab to find new games. I don't know why games journalists think that its impossible to navigate to where the new games are. You just go under the games tab then look under new games. Also TV and video games are two totally different mediums. Saying that putting a game out on Friday does not equal a death sentence. Most people work during the week and don't have time to play any games until the weekend. Also if you want to compare unrelated mediums you could use movies and say its the best day to release a new game. I love your articles Scoops but Idk about this one.

Lol, more than anything it probably was simply cue'd up for front page, and it just takes that long to go through the system.

Its one thing if this was a kick starter campaign where every day counts, but if it finally shows up a day later on the front page, then well, its still on the front page. news must be slow at ol GB, or Patty is just a bit of an alarmist.

also when I want to play games,(even when I have a new game in the tray) I always go to the games tab to see what new demos are out. so idea where you got that idea.

This is the most toothless and bland editorial I think I have ever read.

Ive disconnected from the 360 and 360 dashboard for the past year or so. But admittedly I haven't stayed with it either. PC gaming....Still last time I saw it it was horribly screwed up. Just really unbelievably terrible presentation.

Halo 4. ..maybe?

I actually browse the games tab every Wednesday to see what's new. But only because I know that is the only way i will see it.

I don't find this to be so much of an issue in the UK. We get rotating slides on the big square in the middle and generally covers a game and the big thing in entertainment for that week. However I do always navigate to the Games tab to see what's what's for that week. As I do know Microsoft can't cover EVERYTHING.. I think a good solution would be to have a slide dedicated to each tab on the front page that's scrolls.. Then showing you most things. But this will never change as Microsoft for years have been pushing digital entertainment. Mr Gates himself said he saw the future in digital downloads/streams for movies. So Microsoft need to build a brand imagine doing this and so Games will always take back burner on the system as they push for the all in one entertainment/tv box

Right now, navigating the Xbox 360 is one of the worst experiences I can think so. I hate it so much, it turns me off turning on my 360. It's poorly thought out, but still usable if it weren't for the messed up order everything seems to be in. I have had serious issues finding games at times and the adverts... don't get me started on the ads. Stopped paying for Xbox Live Gold a few months back and I wish I'd done it sooner. Hell! I even pay for Gold if it meant removing adverts (which in itself is a crappy practice I know, but I hate the ads so much). It's not like there ads I want to look at or relate to me, I'd accept them if they were game related or informed of something I might be interested in, but no. Can't help but sense that if Microsoft don't get their act together for the next console, they might find themselves slipping back.

Not saying PSN is much better, but least the subscription is better value by miles and the interface works, it's not great but it works. I'd hate to be game developer and see my game (which I'd worked so hard on for months/years) to be poorly treated by Microsoft... must suck balls.

@InsidiousTuna said:

@Dezztroy: That's because all Steam has are games. What about in 5-10 years when you're buying television shows off of your Steam Box?

Your computer IS your Steam Box. You can already buy television shows on it. This is irrelevant.

I see indie games a bit like indie music. The diamonds in the rough will come out to light eventually. I'm a bit tired of hearing both journalists and game developers bashing on the services that put out their games to the public. Not every great game needs to be a commercial success. Patrick, as long as you will see games as a "product of rentability" and not a work of art, you will always be disapointed in this side of buisness... From Microsoft, sony, steam etc etc. They will all, eventually, let you down. What won't are the games created by passionnate people. I'd say that 95% of the best music will never be listend by 95% of the population. And you know what. That's totally fine. As the game industry grows, it becomes impossible to know and be aware of all the game that comes out. And it will get harder to play them all too. It's up to site like yours and community like ours to share that knowledge and be part of what I could call : a living and breathing indie game world.

Don't write an article to whine about a service that almost created indie gaming, but instead write another article on how you believe Mark of the Ninja is the best thing you've played this year.

I check the games tab every time I turn on my 360. I don't, however, check the videos or music tabs. Because I mainly use my 360 for gaming.

I really how people cdan still be complaining about the 360 UI. When you learn where things are it's so simple to use.

I think people expect too much of Microsoft. First there are complaints that every two bit homebrew indie game isn't spotlighted on the front page of the dashboard and now it's that every XBLA game isn't plastered on the front page of the Dashboard. They'd run out of space if they put everything up there.

Besides, I saw the advertisement... then I heard about it on Weekend Confirmed, then Gamers With Jobs, then IGN, then Gamespot, then etc, etc, etc. I think it's a case of MS realizing that there are multiple ways for a game to get out there and they don't need to plaster every facet of the interface to cover every single release.

I think the bigger issue here is how damn slow and clunky the dashboard has gotten. I honestly don't care which specific ads Microsoft shoves in my face- I ignore them all.

@sickVisionz said:

Besides, I saw the advertisement... then I heard about it on Weekend Confirmed, then Gamers With Jobs, then IGN, then Gamespot, then etc, etc, etc. I think it's a case of MS realizing that there are multiple ways for a game to get out there and they don't need to plaster every facet of the interface to cover every single release.

You must realise that dedicated gamers, like yourself and I, are in the minority when it actually comes to high sales figures with games. More so with downloadable games too. Most 'gamers' don't frequently visit gaming websites, listen to gaming podcasts and do in-depth research when a new game is due to be released. I would wager that aside from the main page there are a healthy number of people who don't go into the stores to search for games. Heck, I know a few 'harcore' gamers who don't even bother to look at downloadable sections at all, so even a basic ad on the front page will enhance the number of downloads sold.

Just as an aside, a friend of mine who is probably the most invested gamer that I know didn't even realise that Journey came out when it was released, but not because the PS store didn't advertise it enough, but that he simply just doesn't care, however, when castle crashers first came out he saw it advertised on the Xbox dashboard and bought it with no previous intentions. My point is, product positioning is but one part of a successful marketing plan, but it's still a necessary and important factor that plays a significant role.

@BR4DL3I9H: The main thing is that I did indeed see the advertisement on the front page of XBL. I don't see what Patty's issue is. So what if it was later? Like you said, nobody comes to gaming sites or listens to podcasts so whatever day the XBL ad goes live will be the "launch" day for the tens of millions of people who aren't on gaming sites. It's not like the XBL ad says, "PS: this game is older than other stuff."

I think complaints that MS doesn't elevate every single game on the service to god-like status is a weak one, especially when it's used for a game that got a front page ad. What more do folk want? Unskippable video ads every time they load up the dashboard?

The main thing I got out of this article is maybe Brad of Jeff should proofread Patricks writing.

Patrick mentioned on the Bombcast the same thought he expressed in his article--that games sell best on their first day of release. I think this rule applies when the game is advertised, but if an unadvertised game is released, does it really hold true then that the first day of release is its most important? Mark of the Ninja's most successful day could very well have been the day of its first advertisement appearing on Xbox Live, as the game could have gone unnoticed before then.

Its no secret that all those ads are paid for, and regardless if M$ is publishing a game, it wont guarantee it gets front page.

But who actually navigates to the games tab to learn about new content on Xbox Live? I don’t. Do you?

See, that's what surprises me. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I just got into the habit of clicking over to games and checking the "new releases" section. It's just muscle memory for me at this point. I find it strange that others, particularly other (ugh) "hardcore" gamers don't do the same.

If I see an add for something cool, that's great, but I feel like as someone who is looking for new games to play, it's at least partially my responsibility to go looking for them.

It's no good for me to walk into a grocery store and get mad if I can't immediately see the milk.

What about the fact that people pay for Xbox Live Gold and still get adverts?

@cancerdancer said:

"and are often part part of contrats between Microsoft"

PROOF READ YOUR SHIT.

This, among several other examples pointed out. Are you a professional or not? You're paid to be a writer, act like it. These errors don't happen when the other guys write articles, but happen very frequently in yours. No excuse. The fu**ing huge tile of the article has a spelling error!

Also, whine much? Are you a PR rep for Mark of the Ninja or what?

@cancerdancer said:

"and are often part part of contrats between Microsoft"

PROOF READ YOUR SHIT.

This, among several other examples pointed out. Are you a professional or not? You're paid to be a writer, act like it. These errors don't happen when the other guys write articles, but happen very frequently in yours. No excuse. The fu**ing huge tile of the article has a spelling error!

Also, whine much? Are you a PR rep for Mark of the Ninja or what?

@Metal_Mills said:

@Nation764 said:

@cancerdancer said:

"and are often part part of contrats between Microsoft"

PROOF READ YOUR SHIT.

This, among several other examples pointed out. Are you a professional or not? You're paid to be a writer, act like it. These errors don't happen when the other guys write articles, but happen very frequently in yours. No excuse. The fu**ing huge tile of the article has a spelling error!

Also, whine much? Are you a PR rep for Mark of the Ninja or what?

I guess you've never written professionally. Some articles are riddled with errors, they get corrected when the editor-in-chief reads it. You know, like what Jeff did for a decade. That's why his grammar is perfect. And are you really bitching about Patrick whining after whining yourself?

Yes

Free comment! :D

I just wish there was a option to customise dashboard, choose what tabs you want and where they appear. The dash needs to show things like a top 10 weekly list on arcade titles on the games tab front page and a what's new. The tiles system doesn't show enough information. I'm starting to think Patrick does typos on purpose to generate more comments on his articles because how hard is it to use spell check and get a friend of the sites name right...

Oh boo-fucking-hoo, your pet game didn't sell very well and isn't going to get ported to other platforms because of it (and the fact that Microsoft owns the property). Normal people just deal with it, as opposed to trying to guilt people into maneuvering through 5 menus to buy a game that clearly nobody cares about.

@Toug said:

But who actually navigates to the games tab to learn about new content on Xbox Live? I don’t. Do you?

See, that's what surprises me. Maybe I'm alone in this, but I just got into the habit of clicking over to games and checking the "new releases" section. It's just muscle memory for me at this point. I find it strange that others, particularly other (ugh) "hardcore" gamers don't do the same.

Agreed, I didn't want to call Patrick out for this, but yeah. You want games, you go to the games tab, it's not exactly difficult.

I understand being upset about getting non-game related ads, somewhat.

But some people are taking it too far by saying "I'm paying for this, there shouldn't be ads at all!"

I pay for my internet, cable television, AND Xbox Live. There's ads all over them and I've never thought "this is BS, my money should go towards removing ads entirely". Just remember that we are all material girls, living in a material world.

The 360's dashboard has been an ever more enraging trainwreck. I'd love if it went back to 2008-era when the goal was functionality of finding what you seek not cram-assing shit they want you to want. The Durango's will be hell.

@Nashvilleskyline said:

I see indie games a bit like indie music. The diamonds in the rough will come out to light eventually. I'm a bit tired of hearing both journalists and game developers bashing on the services that put out their games to the public. Not every great game needs to be a commercial success. Patrick, as long as you will see games as a "product of rentability" and not a work of art, you will always be disapointed in this side of buisness... From Microsoft, sony, steam etc etc. They will all, eventually, let you down. What won't are the games created by passionnate people. I'd say that 95% of the best music will never be listend by 95% of the population. And you know what. That's totally fine. As the game industry grows, it becomes impossible to know and be aware of all the game that comes out. And it will get harder to play them all too. It's up to site like yours and community like ours to share that knowledge and be part of what I could call : a living and breathing indie game world.

Don't write an article to whine about a service that almost created indie gaming, but instead write another article on how you believe Mark of the Ninja is the best thing you've played this year.

This too. If it was dicked over, THEN we can talk about something else other than Dashboard's clunkiness.

Man.... NG+ is looking pretty enticing right now. Everybody play this damn game

This article represents a lot of my recent problems with this site. Patrick, as others have written, you need to step up your game. I know you probably don't have access to a copy editor (it's a position that doesn't make money, so why have one), but you are a professional writer. Have respect for your craft. With regard to the article itself, what's the point? There's an army of revenue managers at Microsoft who have crunched the numbers, and determined that the non-game stuff makes more money. They know that more promotional space for Mark of the Ninja isn't going to make any difference to the bottom line. This article treats a numbers decision like it's an unfortunate XBL glitch or oversight. It's business. This article, as well as your article on Steam's Project Greenlight, comes across as merely a means to post something rather than an attempt at real journalism. We can get complaints from developers about Microsoft or Steam's policies on Twitter - don't settle for being an aggregate source. You can do better. I know it.

@Terramagi said:

Oh boo-fucking-hoo, your pet game didn't sell very well and isn't going to get ported to other platforms because of it (and the fact that Microsoft owns the property). Normal people just deal with it, as opposed to trying to guilt people into maneuvering through 5 menus to buy a game that clearly nobody cares about.

Actually, they hinted that Mark of the Ninja is going to Steam.

@bkfountain said:

@Terramagi said:

Oh boo-fucking-hoo, your pet game didn't sell very well and isn't going to get ported to other platforms because of it (and the fact that Microsoft owns the property). Normal people just deal with it, as opposed to trying to guilt people into maneuvering through 5 menus to buy a game that clearly nobody cares about.

Actually, they hinted that Mark of the Ninja is going to Steam.

So did Phil Fish. Look what happened to him.

I'm Just tired of the 360 dashboard getting bigger and bigger (boxes) and showing more ads with every system update, to the point where my background is almost gone. Currently right now all I have as my background is a inside view of a 2011 Dodge Challenger. I used to have pics of good looking ladies untill the dashboard got bigger.

I'm in the beta for the new dash and I'll break my "confidentiality" to say the UI is constantly receiving tweaks. Almost like Microsoft doesn't have a strong idea of how it should be formatted. I'd personally like the marketplace only visible in that menu option & have a simpler menu. Like that'll happen...

I'm agree with Patrick. Well said :)

@Terramagi said:

Oh boo-fucking-hoo, your pet game didn't sell very well and isn't going to get ported to other platforms because of it (and the fact that Microsoft owns the property). Normal people just deal with it, as opposed to trying to guilt people into maneuvering through 5 menus to buy a game that clearly nobody cares about.

So you're kind of a butt, huh?

@hookem1883 said:

This article represents a lot of my recent problems with this site. Patrick, as others have written, you need to step up your game. I know you probably don't have access to a copy editor (it's a position that doesn't make money, so why have one), but you are a professional writer. Have respect for your craft. With regard to the article itself, what's the point? There's an army of revenue managers at Microsoft who have crunched the numbers, and determined that the non-game stuff makes more money. They know that more promotional space for Mark of the Ninja isn't going to make any difference to the bottom line. This article treats a numbers decision like it's an unfortunate XBL glitch or oversight. It's business. This article, as well as your article on Steam's Project Greenlight, comes across as merely a means to post something rather than an attempt at real journalism. We can get complaints from developers about Microsoft or Steam's policies on Twitter - don't settle for being an aggregate source. You can do better. I know it.

The point is, people are paying a monthly/yearly subscription to play video games on a video game console. The added media center options are nice and i'm sure some percentage of users might use Xbox360 primarily as a "media center device" and less of a video game console, but i can guarantee they are in the minority.

What value do you get from paying for XBL service? You get to play games online and there are sales, which are a complete joke except the big sale they do at the end of the year. If you compare that to Sony, and i'm thinking completely with business logic as I don't even own a ps3, these are things you don't have to pay for with an option for a premium service that gives you actual video games and video game deals.

Now that is kind of a tired/old comparison at this point, until you factor in how the XBL service has changed. It went from functional, to user friendly and focused on games, and finally to something slightly unrecognizable as primarily a video game service. From a business standpoint, you are right...it's pretty damned brilliant to have people paying a subscription that now focuses on advertisements unrelated to video game content and in many cases replacing updates/notices on games we could potentially be interested in.

This is a video game website and i'm assuming patrick wants what is best to further the industry. With the "indie boom" the relationship between game developer and end user has changed and users are getting more vested in the games they enjoy. So instead of microsoft helping developers with advertisement, instead you get to see a state farm insurance advertisement or MSNBC's funniest clip of the week. It's not good for gaming and that is the point you failed to see.

I think more people should be upset about it, personally if microsoft has a paid service again next console generation i'm not buying into it again, because it's hard to see what value i've got from it when you compare it to PS3 and Steam.

The new Xbox dash was what convinced me to ditch consoles forever and build a gaming PC.

So you won the battle since I still play my 360, Microsoft, but lost the war. If you are going to charge me yearly for something and STILL plaster ads on it, our business is through.

@abdo: Like pretty much ever other medium including tv, magazines, newspapers....

@lockload: But in relation to other games services like Steam and PSN, it's atrocious. You don't pay to use Steam and PSN, or to play online on their games, and you get ads on one and none on the other. Xbox Live Gold makes you pay for something you get free with its competitors, and still gives you ads. I've always wondered what those costs cover, since not all online games use dedicated servers, if not most of them.

@abdo said:

@lockload: But in relation to other games services like Steam and PSN, it's atrocious. You don't pay to use Steam and PSN, or to play online on their games, and you get ads on one and none on the other. Xbox Live Gold makes you pay for something you get free with its competitors, and still gives you ads. I've always wondered what those costs cover, since not all online games use dedicated servers, if not most of them.

The only response that will have any effect is to not pay for Xbox Live Gold. Vote with your dollar, and see if that has any effect. My guess, not so much. Like Michael Pachter always says , its a profit deal. Money, money, money, take it or leave it. All the whining and bitching will not change a damn thing.

@sickVisionz: You are absolutely right there. The average person whose only experience with videogames are off hand purchases and big releases probably has no idea that xxx is being released on xx/xx/xxxx on the market place, and thus gets annoyed when they don't see it on the front page of XBL marketplace. The day it IS on the front page is the day that they notice it.

I do think this article is making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.

If people ever want this nonsense to change then they should be blocking the ads and refusing to pay for Gold.

Proofreading?

@Katkillad: Thanks for the reply. I can see your argument, I just don't think Patrick is doing a very good job of presenting that issue. I think the way XBL skews toward triple A titles and media is a problem for independent developers. With regard to your point about paying for Xbox live and expecting video game ads/services, I think that's a general problem with subscription based services. They've got your money, so now they are going to try to find new ways to get more of it or get you to give some to their advertising partners. But unlike a subscription for a magazine or a website - where you can simply stop subscribing if you don't like the message - you need to stay on XBL in order to play online. I think people need to realize that from Microsoft's standpoint, Gold members are paying for the right to play online, use video services and receive certain discounts on games. They are not paying for the right to determine the ads or general presentation of the service. Perhaps there is a way subscribers can change this. My feeling is that the ship has sailed on this.

Maybe this will change in the next generation of consoles. With this generation, paying for Xbox live didn't seem like such a bad deal because Xbox had much better games and UI than the PS3. Now that the systems are entering the next console cycle largely neck and neck with regard to content/games, and Sony has seemed to learn their lesson with reference to UI and Online experience, it could mean that Microsoft will have to improve Gold membership in order to maintain the same success. Following on top of that, both systems will have to compete with other media units (Smart TVs, Roku, etc.) for advertising as well as game sales. Basically I'm saying that a change in Microsoft's approach will only come from market forces, and not from a group of users who, though disgruntled about the presentation of their service, have already proven time and again that they will pay for memberships regardless.

I agree 100% with this article. When I first heard about Mark of The Ninja, it was the day it came out and I read about it on this site. It literally came out of nowhere, because I had never known it existed until it released. I'm so glad I read about it here though, because I immediately downloaded the trial, fell in love and bought it all within the space of 15 minutes.