There's no difference between buying a game on a PC vs a console. It's all application software meant to run on computers.

You don't need alternatives when you're service is better than the alternatives and Valve had no track record for this sort of thing when they launched their console.

I love how now that MS are doing this U-turn, people are coming out of the woodwork saying that they actually liked the original DRM policy! You guys should've made your voices heard earlier. The people who shouted the loudest got what they wanted. That's how it works.

Well yeah, because every single forum thread with someone bemoaning this DRM policy you'd eventually have someone chiming in with "Well, how is this unlike Steam?".

Oh I dunno, because Steam is an easily navigable system, focused squarely on games, it doesn't show me any adverts despite paying a premium subscription, the client supports a wide range of community features, and the catalogue has a flexible pricing structure.

Other than that, I guess it's exactly like Steam.

It's amazing what 2 weeks can do in the gaming industry. 2 weeks ago I was convinced Sony and MS were going down this DRM always online future together.

Both Sony & Xbox One have said there would be no more ads on the front page except for first party games so you're wrong on that point.

The only reason why there's a flexible pricing structure is because Steam has locked down their system. You have a thread right now on the forums with people bemoaning the loss of the sharing functionality, and they don't understand that that functionality only worked with the 24 hour checkin. Without the checkin the system wouldn't know that you were subverting their system and just stealing the game.

This was Steam's model but with more forward thinking and expanded features.

As for what you said @dexterkid. I have been saying this thing, but it's hard competing with the gamers who only watched the press conference & didn't bother to read how the actual policies worked before being outraged.

Clearly you're missing some big things here.

• Steam didn't launch a console, but you probably meant platform/service/whatever.
• Of course Steam didn't have a track record when they started, they were hated...but they built trust over time.
• Microsoft was/is in the same situation with no track record and little trust...but the difference here is that at least on PC there are other options. I'm not trapped by the hardware manufacturer.
• Steam may be better than the alternatives but they didn't start like that, that took time and Valve understands that the Internet is quick to change so if they fuck up, the Internet will be sure to let them know that tenfold.
• I want the Steam model to work on consoles; it's fucking thriving on PC, but to trust MS at launch (and especially now that they showed how flexible they can be to accommodate by quickly changing policies) and expect them to do the right thing is simply too much.
• Now this is only a rumor but it appears that Valve may be paving the way for trading/borrowing digital games. Valve has a good tendency to not be tone deaf so I wouldn't be surprised if they took the opportunity to trail blaze this stuff while the console manufacturers continue to try to get their shit together about this DRM nonsense.

There were a lot more benefits for gamers with their proposed system but they did such a shitty job explaining it everyone now loses.

The changes are what they are and I can't blame Microsoft to caving in to the will of the people, but right now the stance on DRM and online connectivity is going to remain unchanged despite the system currently in place isn't ideal for developers and publishers, especially when it comes to used games.

The Steam model has worked fine for me and maybe Microsoft should look into something similar to that.

All goes to show you can never please everyone no matter what you do.

Sadly, there's so many ways to spin advertising through creative semantics that I just don't trust them.

Hey bro, want to download these sweet 7-Eleven gamerpics? How 'bout this Yaris game?

Promoted content, right? No, it's a fucking ad.

1. No I meant what I said, both Microsoft & Valve are selling application software to run on computers. Just because we have an expectation for consoles to work a certain way doesn't change the fact that they're both computers to run software.
2. Should be no expectation that Microsoft couldn't do the same.
3. I don't understand why this matters. On Android & iPhone people are perfectly willing to give up their rights with no alternative. These are all computers that run software. You might as well not bring up the other options, 70% of the market is Steam, and it's completely closed. The market has voted.
4. Valve said to the internet, take our service or don't, we'll be here when you calm the fuck down. And people calmed the fuck down & now it's great.
5. They should have had your trust when they did something no other company ever offered before, the ability to share digital licenses & sell your game digitally used.
6. Valve is doing it because it's a smart idea. An idea that Microsoft came up with and console gamers weren't ready to accept. In order to have that future you need a closed platform. Sorry if you can't accept that.

MS definitely did an abysmal job selling the idea. Not once did they ever imply that the 24h connection was specifically necessary for those features (to my knowledge at least; I watched every bit of news pretty thoroughly).

I don't know if most people would willingly accept a 24h check-in just to get game sharing though. I take comfort in buying Steam games because I can play almost all of them perpetually in offline mode, no matter what happens. With MS, knowing that my games are held hostage at the whim of their servers makes me queasy about the whole idea, and that was the huge difference between the two services. The complete lack of flexibility is the crux behind why the interned exploded on them.

@granderojo: You're comparing a console (still a modified PC, sure) that is designed for entertainment to a standard PC that has numerous purposes and happens to run Steam...ummm ok? But whatever I'm not here to argue semantics. Anyways, I'm not sure how comparing to smartphone users does anything I don't care if they are more willing to give up rights. Their (MS) online share plans are great but poorly communicated but they still have more to prove that will only happen over time and I'll be more than happen to watch them evolve that surface from the safety of my PC.

Sorry I'm not so quick to trust and trap myself in an ecosystem that is still unproven?

Not needing a disc is still possible. Just buy it over XBL.

I'm sure the rest of us with the soldout preorder could have proven that for you while you waited. Shame we never will because a bunch of people complained.

No, no it wasn't.

I've already been through this. You're wrong.

If I buy a game digitally on PC, I do not have to worry about backwards compatibility. If I buy a game digitally on console, it may not run on Microsoft's next console (if there even is one). Granted, the console cycle is a lot slower nowadays, but that's still a big difference.

I'm already going to effectively cease to own some of my favorite games of this past generation once Microsoft eventually shuts down the 360's XBLA servers. Maybe not a lot of people care about that, but I consider a digital distribution service which does not support past purchases to be complete garbage and will refuse to buy into it until they meet that expectation

I liked it the way it was...can we get an opt-in program please, MS? (Now that I know you're actually out there and listening..). Can we have the option of doing the things (family share, cloud library) that sold me on pre-ordering an Xbox One in the first place or did I just pay an extra $100 for what amounts to a PS4?

Actually quite a few games you do have to worry about backwards compatibility. Many games won't run on newer or older operating systems.

It really didn't matter to me. I was never going to be a early adopter of the Xbox One regardless of the DRM. I don't share, lend, buy used, or borrow games and I'm always connected to the internet. I can see why people can be extremely mad about the decision, but I kinda wanted to see how it went. Though, I wouldn't recommend people be day one purchasers of a unproven ecosystem. Let the fanatics, press, and tech junkies test it out and see how it goes. If the system proved itself, then I would buy one next year.

18% of lunatics up in this thread, shame on you!

Older OSes and older games, obviously, but one of the nice things about Steam and the current era of PC gaming is that tweaking for compatibility has almost entirely disappeared. I have never had a PC fail to run a game I bought digitally, except in cases where my machine didn't meet a game's minimum requirements. I don't know whether that's because of services like Steam and GOG or because of better compatibility on the OS level (probably some of both), but it's just not a relevant issue anymore.

And even if you're trying to run something ancient, it's always possible to emulate older OSes and dosbox and whatnot on the PC. You have a ton of options to tweak in the rare case that something doesn't run seamlessly. That isn't an option on consoles, and it'll probably be a long time before it is (if ever).

I'm wrong because you say I'm wrong. Great reasoning.

Except no, it's not. You have to explain why this theoretical service that will now not see the light of day, at least in the near future, is somehow better than Steam if you want me to take you seriously, chuckles.

It's a good change, motivated by their bottom line potentially suffering, though, not consumer feedback, as they'd like us to believe. I simply don't buy that when they had all these restrictions planned in the first place.

As for me, I'll continue to play on PC, then eventually get a PS4 after a price drop or two.

so all the people that voted for the ps4 with their money are wrong in saying they want their options of used games and rentals? cause you do know, no matter how you slice it in terms of how big or small the lead is, ps4 is winning in preorders.

(amazon has 5 skus of ps4 bundles in the best sellers list, with the launch day edition of the ps4 completely sold out since last week, and gamestop and best buy have the ps4 as number 1 consistently in preorders, and keep in mind ,

gamestop and gamefly are multimillion dollar corporations, they would not be multimillion dollar corporations if there wasnt a large audience of users that dont use rentals and used games, and sony would not have gotten an applause for their policies and wouldnt be one of the biggest news out of E3 if it didnt matter to people, GB said they had 3 times the traffic on this news story than their entire E3 coverage)

you must realize that MS only did this cause there wasn't enough of you elitists out there to support the thing vs the people that depend on their options to play games you know? If it was the other way around and MS was in the lead, there is a big guarantee that they would have revoked nothing.

just cause PC's use steam and has those rules does not mean everyone follows suit just cause. if PC owners had the benefits of used games and rentals from the start, it would be a much much different story but sadly that was never an option for PC games and valve was able to come in and established themselves with steam,

but sadly you zealots cant seem to understand that there are a lot of markets that depend on used games and rentals to even experience games at all. digital is eventually going to happen, but you cant goddamm funnel people and restrict them on consoles, it has to be gradual.

just get a steambox and shutup for christ sake. steam is investigating sharing digital games, so its not like thats never not going to be an option for you.

I guess I just don't see the problem in the fact that older games run on older hardware/operating systems. If you want to run those games whether it be a 360 or a Ultima, run them where they were intended, not on The One or Windows 8.

I did explain it in detail in this thread. I also did so on my blog. I won't continue repeating myself because you're late to the discussion. If you want to continue our discussion we already been having in this thread, I would be more than willing.

@mrfluke: Both the PS4 & Xbox One are soldout everywhere that's released data on such things(gamestop,amazon,etc) so your argument kind of falls on it's face. I don't think what I'm arguing here is elitist at all, Steam is completely closed & it's the most inclusive with how aggressive they are with pricing.

That was Microsoft's clear intent initially with their policies, they just did a terrible job at messaging & now they flipflopped.

@granderojo: I'm not "late to the discussion." The discussion is taking place all over these forums, not to mention game and social media sites across the internet. To expect me to have come into this thread having read your blog is narcissistic and foolish.

@hailinel: I didn't expect you to read my blog but I've explained in detail how Steam is similar to Xbox One in this very thread. So I apologize if you expect me to repeat myself merely a few posts before.

@mrfluke: Dude you really need to stop using dumb pre-order rankings, gametrailers activity feeds statistics, and online polls as an argument for your case. It's easy to pre-order a console when you don't actually pay any money to do so. I pre-ordered Duke Nukem forever and yet I don't actually own a copy of Duke Nukem Forever.

It's a problem because my digital purchases through XBLA are tied to the existence of the 360 XBLA servers. Once those shut down, which they almost certainly will one day, I basically won't own those games anymore. It's not even an issue of wanting to run it on different hardware, since I've kept my SNES for 20+ years and wouldn't have a problem doing the same with my 360; it's an issue of Microsoft continuing to support its digital distribution platforms.

If they want to usher in an all-digital console future, or whatever, then I think that supporting digital purchases indefinitely should be a minimum requirement for that, regardless of what systems they're compatible with. Obviously we don't know yet whether the Xbone's digital distribution servers will be tied into those of the next console (or just some broader Microsoft Live account servers, as gamertags seem to be), but I already considered it a basic expectation going from the 360 to the X1 that they have failed to meet.

Yes and no. I wasn't interested in the X-ONE specifically because of the restrictive DRM, but I freely admitted that Microsoft was designing the future. The Kinect isn't a very good controller, but we'll see a ton of positive impact from it in how we interact with our homes and workplaces in twenty years. Twenty-four hour check-ins aren't appealing, but accessing licensed experiences instantly, globally is most certainly the future.

I've never bought anything from iTunes, but Apple was brilliant to drag people away from their compact discs. People disliked the DRM but they accepted the package, and now people have entirely digital music libraries and they're streaming Game of Thrones in HD.

There were a lot of issues with Microsoft's previous plan, but now both Sony and Microsoft are repeating this generation with better AI and prettier graphics.

everywhere are taking preorders, check again, dont be stupid.

http://www.amazon.com/best-sellers-video-games/zgbs/videogames/ref=vg_homepage_quicklinks_bestsellers?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-leftnav&pf_rd_r=E0AB80B5F8BA4500B15C&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1567748922&pf_rd_i=468642

http://www.gamestop.com/browse?nav=28-xu0,135

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Sony---PlayStation-4-Gaming-System/8240103.p?id=1218866963585&skuId=8240103

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Microsoft---Xbox-One%3A-Day-One-Edition/9008207.p?id=1219013502536&skuId=9008207

http://www.walmart.com/cp/1105474?&_prevTerm=xbox+one&redirect_query=xbox+one&search_redirect=true

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Playstation-4-Console-PS4/24274267

and also the ps4 alone on launch day is completely sold out, while the day one edition of the one is still in effect, and the hard data from a while back showed that ps4 was beating xbox one in preorders.

http://www.examiner.com/article/ps4-launch-edition-sold-out-on-amazon-but-bundles-still-selling-pre-orders

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/14/e3-2013-ps4-outpacing-xbox-one-pre-orders

http://www.examiner.com/article/ps4-is-outpacing-the-xbox-one-2-to-1-with-gamestop-pre-orders

also to your point on steam prices, and its inclusiveness, microsoft has no track record of doing sales aggressively as steam, (they had 8 years to drive home that they are aggressive like steam) its a big assumption to make that they would do so now, and even as frequently and as deep discounted as steam.

and it is definitely not the most inclusive system,as the PC the primary configuration is a keyboard and mouse, which is not how console gamers play games, they use controllers ( yes yes, you can buy the wireless dongle and controller to set things up properly and use steam big picture, but keep in mind for the average consumer, that would be 500 dollars to get a good rig to run things well, plus the addons or the controller, then plus buying the game)

also you are grossly underestimating how big the userbase is for game rentals (something which Ms has said was TBD)

Download them on your harddrive. Then they last as long as that harddrive does, just like any disc based game only lasts as long as the disc does. I don't see how as a business they should be required to offer anything more than that.

If Steam was going belly up today I would buy another 3 TB harddrive & download all my games.

@granderojo: Look what you've gone and done. You had him post more of his dumb online statistics that don't mean anything cause nobody has actually paid for anything.

so all those people dont count? all that statistics dont count? (especially when its most likely the number 1 reason MS revoked the policies when they were VERY adamant on them was due to their sales probably not being up to expectations?) the news 2 days ago that ps4 is outpacing sales dont count?

http://www.examiner.com/article/ps4-is-outpacing-the-xbox-one-2-to-1-with-gamestop-pre-orders

the news that sony has raised their sales forecast due to preorders dont count?

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/13/sony-raises-its-sales-forecasts-for-playstation-4

dont be stupid. if those are your assumptions, then you know nothing about how business works, and what an analyst does

@mrfluke: The PS4 is only selling more preorders of The One because they have more preorders offered. They're both sold out. I don't understand how I can make this more clear. They're both selling as many as they allotted.

Maybe I can put this in terms you can understand. The Wii was killing PS3 is sales when they both launched, but they were both sold out. Sony only allotted a certain number to be sold during that period which is why it sold less but they were both successful at launch.

@granderojo: They should be required to offer more because that's what seemingly all other digital distribution platforms offer. I don't see any reason not to consider it a very basic expectation.

As long as Steam continues to exist as a service, there will be some record in some server or database somewhere of all the digital games purchases I have made, and I can access them as long as I have access to my Steam account. As long as iTunes exists as a service, there will be some record of my music purchases made through it. And so on for various other services.

When I bought games through Xbox Live, I expected that there would be a record of those purchases for as long as Xbox Live continues to exist as a service - this does not seem to be the case, despite Xbox Live accounts existing independently of the 360. As I understand it, those purchases are tied specifically to 360 servers, and the 360 XBLA servers will one day be shut down. We don't know if the X1's digital distribution servers will work in the same way, but I no longer have enough faith in Microsoft to trust them to meet that standard.

@granderojo: ultimately you're dodging a big point here, Microsoft was extremely adamant on this always online feature,

they seem to care less about minority groups, they are a very data centric company that looks at statistics (the 360 was majorly used for entertainment, hence why they are taking the full step of tv integration with the x1).they wouldn't flex full on system policies for minority, for them to revoke all the policies, they must have had data that shows that there is a gap in preorders that they were not happy with or that there was a very very negative reaction to the console that wasnt just forum boards complaining.

and also dude, Retailers are sold out of machines, that does not mean online retailers wont take preorders. and all those links ive showed you, they are very well still taking preorders. dont be stupid.

These are my thoughts exactly.

@mrfluke: Again, just because you pre-order doesn't mean you bought the device. The internet is easily manipulated especially since you don't have to pay money to actually pre-orders. Are pre-orders taken into account? Sure, but not the amount that you seemingly think they do. As easily as preorders can be made, so to can they be canceled. I have to think Sony is way too smart to base their future on the "Geoff Keighley logic".

You obviously don't know how the internet works or business for that matter either (see I can do that too).

@jazzycola: ive never said its the be all end all and there is a definite winner, just based on those trends and the data available the ps4 is in more favor than the X1 with consumers. how much so, we'll never know . i agree that people cancel their preorders and basically troll the hardware companies big time if a mass amount cancel preorders.

but preorders and media buzz are enough for companies to gauge how much more consoles to make and to allocate to retailers.sony wouldnt be raising their sales FORECAST if they dont look at buzz and preorders.

Laws of supply and demand dude,

http://www.polygon.com/2013/6/17/4438644/sony-raises-sales-projections-for-ps4-after-favorable-e3-reception

"Demand may well outstrip supply," said House.

"We're excited about the momentum," added Sony Computer Entertainment of America's CEO Jack Tretton.

I guess you'r right. I'm one of the crazy bastards who preferred the original plans for DRM and a more digital-focused system. The loss of the family sharing plan isn't a huge deal for me, but I'm really bummed that the "discs as repositories of data" plan didn't materialize. Now I'll probably have to buy Forza 5 on a disc at launch and not have it included in my digital library. Microsoft had a good plan, but they did a horrendous job at marketing it. It will be interesting to see how they manage to convey these changes to consumers.

But then again if this means that the Xbox One ends up selling more units and the "console race" will be more neck-and-neck then I guess it's only good for competition and in the end good for consumers.

@mrfluke: And again no where in that article does it specifically mention that Pre-orders or some sort of sales ranking is the primary reason. All you've been doing the past week is flaunting those activity feeds, polls, and pre-orders like they're the end-all-be-all. You can keep posting the same links over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, but I'm still going to take them with a grain of salt just like anybody else should. If you wanted to prove your point you'd post articles from mainstream papers and media. The WSJ article or even the Jimmy Fallon game interview to show that Microsoft stumbling is getting out. And even then you don't need to post the same god damn articles each time you find somebody online that doesn't quite agree with you.

I don't understand some of the posts in this thread. If you're so upset about needing to have the disc in the tray or not being able to access all your games from the cloud, then just buy all your games digitally. The loss of the family sharing thing is a shame, but this change puts the power in the hands of the consumers, where it should be.

If you want to share your games with friends, sell them on ebay, or rest easy knowing that your collection will be fully functional in 25 years, buy your games on discs. If you want to access your library from the cloud, clear out all your game cases, and tell your disc tray to go fuck itself, then buy digitally. It's your choice.

You can still download games if you don't want to deal with the 'disc crap'.

Even Hitler wouldn't have wanted the original Xbox One DRM.

THERE, I DID IT
GODWIN RULES!

I'm kind of disappointed that the Xbox One will no longer be a car wreck. Still think that Sony won more hearts and minds with their attitudes and business practices and E3 showing. Good news for Xbox fans anyway.

Cloud gaming is a badly thought out concept, and anyone supporting it should feel bad...or at the very least reconsider.

so apparently all those other outlets are shit now cause i haven't posted mainstream links and they did source wall street as well? (cause you know they do say the same thing that they have raised their sales forecast and others have cited from them you know if you actually read the links) http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2013/06/14/video-sony-boosts-ps4-sales-estimates-after-e3-response/?mod=wsj_streaming_stream

and here's one from forbes that cites the same thing. cause mainstream media according to you is only legit

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2013/06/15/sony-playstation-4-launch-edition-already-sold-out-at-amazon/

and again, where have i said its the be all end all? your missing this point that ive said before, where have i said its the be all end all?, never have i said that, for the 2nd time, again, i agree with you, that preorder numbers can fluctuate, but the corps still use them for forecasts and its enough to show to the very least that sony has excellent momentum. you obviously do not understand how business analysts work, they look at the data and make their assumptions (cause you know its not that hard of an assumption to make IF their are more ps4 bundles in the most anticipated section on the gamestop website versus the xbox one bundles and over time the xbox one's bundles start to drop off, that the ps4 is doing better)

they can be wrong you know, if im wrong on my assumption then cool!, if someone has the better argument and have the sources to back it up, then great!, but straight dismissing the data thats available,nope.

all im saying is that my argument is that preorders must have been good enough for sony to raise their sales forecast and for MS to revoke these policies when they were extremely firm on them,, and if you are going to take these articles and the public data with a grain of salt, then good for fucking you, just cause you've seen the articles doesn't mean that others have not you know? and im not the only one referencing the data thats available in their arguments, if you think my arguments are invalid, then again good for fucking you. but like coming on and bugging me specifically cause YOU seen them, like fucking deal with it dude, im sorry that its a problem that im showing data to people to find out what they think of that