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Sticking the Landing

Patrick's lengthy conversation with Entertainment Weekly writer Jeff Jensen on that ending, the concept of fan entitlement, and the perils of player agency.

No Caption Provided

UPDATE: Make sure you read my story from last week, too: "When It's Over, It's Over." I consider this a compliment to that.

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[Note: This story does contain spoilers about the ending to Mass Effect 3 and TV show The Sopranos.]

The conversation about Mass Effect 3 continues, albeit one that's died down in the past week. That's unsurprising, as players wait to hear about BioWare's next move.

Will the studio change the ending? I'm betting not. Will the studio release downloadable content that provides more context and closure, and will that probably have been the plan all along? I'd say that's likely, but remains unclear.

As part of my story last week about the intense, polarizing, and government-filled reaction to the ending, I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Entertainment Weekly senior writer Jeff Jensen, himself a fellow Mass Effect fan, devotee at the shrine of Lost, and a frequent commentator on pop culture. Much of our conversation did not make it into my piece, but it felt worth sharing, especially the discussions about the concept of fan "entitlement," the precarious nature of endings, and the design struggles of player agency.

Let's contextualize this a bit, too.

This chat happened just as BioWare made its first public statement to fans, and Jensen had not finished the game, though he had read about the endings. As such, we didn't dive much into the narrative misgivings players with the final moments of Mass Effect 3 (which, believe me, I'm with you on), and focuses on the bigger picture.

Hope you enjoy it. It's a bit talky.

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Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.
Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.

Jeff Jensen: I’ll be honest with you, I only began playing Mass Effect 3 about a week and a half ago. I actually wasn’t really into it in the beginning, and I got distracted by other things, so I have to return to it, but catching up to the controversy is fascinating.

Giant Bomb: It’s interesting because, unlike other mediums, when there’s a television show, when theres’s a finale, or there’s a movie that’s a conclusion to some multi-part series, you can consume that in an hour-and-a-half, two hours. Mass Effect 3 took me 40 hours to finish. It’s not as simple as just booting it up one night so you can catch up, and find out what happened.

Jensen: You felt burned? Were you burned, personally?

GB: Not really. I was disappointed. They were going for something a little more audacious and bittersweet, and I do think a lot of the reaction has stemmed from that. A lot of people play these games to be the good guy that accomplishes everything, and video game endings, as a whole, the trope is that you’re the hero that’s unbeatable and everything turns out alright in the end. They went for something a little more mixed: things are out of your control. Bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, what choice you make. People have some real trouble processing that. Some wanted this “you saved the princess” ending that games have always have. Personally, as a player, it’s really important that they’re having this reaction. You don’t see that very often with a video game.

Jensen: A couple things about that. To prepare for this interview and other things that I’m working on, I actually went and read some sites and actually spoiled everything.

What I find interesting about what you're saying is that...it’s an interesting nuance that you’re talking about. It sounds like whatever scenario you choose, Earth blows up, right?

GB: Earth doesn’t necessarily get destroyed, but the mass relays do get destroyed. The thing that has allowed the universe to be unified, that goes away. In some sense, it’s the universe starting over. Some of them, Shepard dies, some of them, Shepard lives, but as far as I can tell, none of the endings I saw, and none of the endings I’ve read about, involve you saving the day in every capacity. There is no way, no matter what you do, that everything’s going to be alright for everybody. Bad shit happens at the end of Mass Effect 3, and there are consequences for that. I do think that’s part of the reaction--it’s an interesting reaction for BioWare to purposely provoke, but I think it’s an important one. In some way, it’s a commentary on the fact that these games are largely about player choice, and at the end, there’s a subversion of that. Part of this is out of your hands. Maybe that’s looking into it too much, but I do get a sense that there’s a purposeful subversion of the player to reflect that no matter what you do, bad things are going to happen.

Jensen: I really like what you’re saying. It sounds like what BioWare really wanted exactly the kind of dialogue that we are having here, which is, I think, they hoped we could get to the end and everyone that plays this game...it’s having exactly the kind of emotional experience that you’re having but also the kind of reflective experience that you’re having, which seems really worthwhile, and pretty quality. But instead, it gets unfortunately minimized into just the simple issue of satisfaction and catharsis and all that.

No Caption Provided

GB: Specifically, Lost was the first analogy that came to mind. I’m sure, as someone that writes a lot about TV and movies, you witness fan entitlement, or the sense of entitlement that fans feel when they’re on this long journey. Whether it’s a series of movies over several years or a TV show over several years, fans come to expect certain things. I’m curious what you’ve perceived over the years, whether from Lost or other shows and movies, how creators in those mediums deal with that sense of entitlement from fans, given the creators themselves have a vision in mind for how they want things to play out.

Jensen: What I would say that the controversies around the finales of Lost and Mass Effect and other examples, too, that we see in pop culture, like for example last year with the television show The Killing, which also kind of flummoxed a lot of people with how they ended the first season. What we are reminded of is that in entertainment, and especially in the mediums of television and video games, they are ultimately service industries. Which is to say the customer is always right, and that’s going to be frustrating for storytellers to hear because ultimately you exist, your product exists, at the whims and desire of your consumer base. If they’re happy, if they’re unhappy, they’re right. Even if they’re wrong, they’re right. You have to deal with it, right? You have to deal with it.

You look at BioWare’s response to this, the Facebook post last [week], and they are basically out there saying “We hear you, we understand your complaints, we’re looking at some possibilities about what to do, but we want you to know that we hear you.” This just goes to show that even if, behind the scenes, the creators at BioWare are like “Damnit, they didn’t get our story! To address the complaints represent a compromise of our artistic vision.” That sucks, but they’re right. You just have to deal with it.

The similarities between Lost and Mass Effect--there’s another similarity, too. Over the past decade in television, we’ve seen a creative medium come into its own and take some bold leaps forward, but there’s still some room to grow. I think after The Sopranos--or, more specifically, after Twin Peaks--I think a lot of TV storytellers became enamored with this notion that TV writing can be an art and I can be an artist, and I can have my own show and tell my own story and it’s my story, my world, my rules, and I’m going to tell you a story and you’re going to listen to it, and you’re going to follow it, and if I bring you to a certain end that is maybe not necessarily a happy ending or the ending that you want, it’s still my story. It has to be my story if it has any artistic integrity.

The audience push back is “no.” As much as the viewer benefits in this era of artist auteur television, in which the most interesting television is being made by singular creators with singular visions that are just telling their own story, viewers who become fans and who immerse themselves and give themselves over to it and devote so much time to thinking about it and talking about it and dreaming into it, they get a sense of ownership. Their agenda becomes projected onto your agenda. If you’re a writer, if you’re a television network, you benefit from that and you can’t run away from that because they’re keeping you in business. When you get to the end, sometimes what you have is this effect, this clash between shows that the artist, the writer, was creating and the show that the viewer, the fan, thought they were watching. When there’s no sync-up, there’s profound dissatisfaction. For the creators of Lost or the creator of The Sopranos, David Chase, that kind of sticks. At the very least, what you hope for is “Well, okay, you didn’t like my ending, but can you appreciate it? Or can we talk about it?” But, instead, that hopeful conversation gets swallowed up by the vitriol that comes with a more consumer orientation that’s more “I expected one thing and instead you gave me a lemon,” if that makes sense.

When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.
When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.

With video games, it’s interesting because I think video games are on a similar creative trajectory. Video games, the art of video games, has grown by leaps and bounds, I mean, ever since its introduction. The entire history of this medium is defined by radical innovation every other year, it seems. The exhilarating part of watching this industry is watching a medium of entertainment grow and blossom before its eyes, and there’s another aspect to it, too, which is very different from watching any other entertainment medium blossom over the past, you know, 100 years of pop culture, which is...I don’t know if people who were fans of movies or fans of rock music during the golden age of those periods said things like “it’s really cool now, but just wait 10 years from now, because we can all be where it’s going.” Video games are different. The best video games not only are really, really good, but as of right now, they capture your imagination for what they could be 10 to 15 years from now. We have this weird dilemma where we’re exulting what the medium can do, even as we’re bucking up against its limitations here and now. And that brings me to Mass Effect.

The interesting thing about Mass Effect is that it’s on the cutting edge of this whole idea of player choice. There’s a sort of choose your own adventure kind of thing. My dilemma playing Mass Effect is usually, as much as I really appreciate the idea and I understand what they go for and I understand how it affects the story, at the same time, I’m always keenly aware that it never really does what I really want it to do. There’s some kind of creative, artificial intelligence within the game that is constantly changing the game in robust, profound ways in response to your choices, instead of just shunting you to one, two or three other options that don’t feel dramatically different from each other. They’re not choose your own adventure games, it’s choose your own nuance games. It seems like Mass Effect 3 butts up against that, especially with its ending, and also butts up against something else, too, which is...hearing about the controversy about Mass Effect 3, it makes me wonder if the artist creators of the game over at BioWare, how much control over their storytelling do these artists really want to seed to the player?

At the end of the day, one of the exciting storylines that is emerging out of the past 10 years of video games are these creators who see video games as a means of artistic expression, a way of telling a story that expresses ideas that they want to challenge people with, that they want to get people talking to. And the most impactful way to do that is to limit potential interpretations and choices in a story, instead of opening it up open source like and making it everything you want it to be.

It seems to me that these possible endings that Mass Effect 3 gives us at the end of the game are like “Yeah, your choices throughout the game have affected your fate in terms of whether you live or die, they affect, to some degree, your character, but we still want a certain [set] of pre-determined endings that are designed to facilitate the certain point that we have about the world, certain ideas that we want you consider, certain conventions that we want to debunk, and pursuing an artistic agenda like that is tricky when you also want to create a game in which the player, in some ways, is being lead to believe they are the defining artistic decision maker in the game, if that makes sense.

No Caption Provided

GB: There’s definitely that rub between the player and the creator. An unintended consequence of BioWare’s player choice model was an end where players felt like they were gonna have more agency over that conclusion. And maybe it's not so much that they had written their own ending in their mind, but they’d made all these decisions along the way. Knowing game development, a lot of this is largely just a function of they have 18 months to produce a thing, so there’s only so many outcomes they can produce in X amount of time, but my large takeaway from all of this is that it’s a positive thing, showing how much players can care about a story.

But you’re right, once you’ve handed over the keys of the kingdom to the player, they also expect certain things. You can fall back to the passive entertainment experience excuse with TV and movies because the interactive part happens on the periphery and the creators can always retreat back to saying “at the end of the day, what matters is what’s canonical in the television series--that’s a passive experience that we’re writing and presenting.” But games aren’t that way. Mass Effect is definitely totally separate from that--it’s not just you shooting from the beginning of the level to the end of the level. You’re choosing which characters live and die, which races live and die, which planets survive and don’t. Once you’ve given people that power, you’ve opened the box, the genie is out of the bottle. Players feel like they should have this unique impact on this world and how it plays out, and it’s what makes the world "entitlement" feel...it doesn’t seem to work as well for the reaction. Entitlement’s a really easy word to apply to it, but in some sense, players should feel entitled when they’ve been told they’re the ones who are entitled to make these decisions.

When they get to an end that isn’t satisfying, an end where BioWare says they want to make a statement, that goes directly contrary to the player and the agency they had during that experience. I imagine, as a developer, that’s really tough, especially as games try to embrace this whole cinematic appeal and trying to take what lessons they can from other mediums. Games are inherently interactive, and when you start to take steps further to involving player in the story, you’re going to have consequences for the player’s emotional reaction when you take that away from them.

Jensen: There’s something that you’re also touching on here that I really like, which is a really good point. Regardless of your story, whatever medium you’re experiencing a story, what do we want from endings is a really big picture topic here. Some of the themes that you talked about at the beginning of our conversation here come into play, things like the video game experience offers you the chance to be a hero, and hero stories are all about taking their fate into their own hands and are able to impose their will on a world. They may succeed, they may fail, a lot of that depends on skill, but they get to impose their will on the world for better or worse. You go into a very long journey in which you are executing this kind of heroic function--you expect the opportunity to save the day. You think that should be an option that’s available to you, and, in this case, that’s not. In that way, a traditional ending, or what we want from an ending to that kind of story, is subverted. In other ways, just in general, what we want from endings is catharsis, especially a series finale.

When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.
When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.

Even though my guess is we may not see the Mass Effect the franchise, it seems to me what was being presented to us was that this is the end, this is the last game at least with this character, in a really involving, immersive, creative endeavor. Here, we really do see analogs to things like Lost or The Sopranos, where a fan base that’s large and rabid and loyal and passionate and really, really invested--they’re not only getting what the final game or final episode, the end of a story, they’re getting the door slammed on a huge part of their lives, a significant thing in their lives. To that end, an ending, then, must give you something more. There’s an expectation of something more. There’s something like a massive emotional catharsis. The ending of Lost really tried to go for that, they tried to win on emotion. “This is the end for all of us, my friends, and we’re all going away, in more ways than one. It’s been a long journey--bittersweet, sad, wonderful, joyous.” And they send us out with tears and a surge fo emotion. Lost completely triumphed int hat regard, but in other areas that people were expecting, the more intellectual areas, payoffs of certain storylines that people were invested in and mysteries that they were really invested in, the storytellers never said “We’re not necessarily as interested in that.” For a lot of people, that was a huge part of that entertainment experience, and they didn’t get it. The catharsis was incomplete.

There seems to be a similarity here with Mass Effect 3, with a fan base that has gone through these games and come to the end, and they want the full meal catharsis--they want everything. They want a heroic end, or the possibility of a heroic end. They want an emotional send-off, they want resolution of certain mysteries, and they all want it to be coherent and skillfully done, and all that. It sounds like Mass Effect just didn’t nail that landing.

GB: When I watched the end of Lost, the emotional arc worked perfectly fine. Yes, I was there for the mysteries and that was the fun of the week-to-week nature of that show, but at the end, I got the emotional closure with each of the characters. It’s different from player to player, just as with each viewer of Lost or any other television show. But with Mass Effect, what they brought to the end was, yes, the mysteries were important, and, yes, the resolution of the conflict with the Reapers was important, but it was the player’s agency. People talk about it in terms of the ending, but it was really just about these very binary choices presented in front of you that didn’t seem to reflect the agency that players had brought in throughout this entire adventure. As a result, they didn’t get get closure through their own agency, which was the motivational factor for these three games, which is why they brought their saved games from one game to the next. It’s interesting to see BioWare run into that as they start to contemplate how they address the reaction.

Jensen: I’m reminded of that whole idea of the observer effect, as well as schrodinger's cat. There’s a world of possibilities inside that box, until you get to the end and you get to the action of opening that box, and looking at it, and in that moment, then, all possibilities collapse and one remains, and only that option remains. Ultimately, then, this experience that was defined by the romance of mystery and possibility suddenly now becomes only defined by this one concrete resolution.

I’m reminded that with Lost--this is a show, week after week, captured your imagination and allowed you to dream into it an infinite number of possibilities and they were really good and clever about it. “What is going on? What is going on?” The interesting thing that happened about the end of Lost is that I honestly think the ending of Lost was an attempt by the show runners to actually communicate a specific point that they had, but while retaining, for the viewer, the quality that they identified as the defining characteristic of Lost, which was mystery, which was should the legacy of this show be one in which we’re still debating and still wondering and theorizing and still speculating years afterwards. I think they thought that by not being clear and concrete and definitive on many of the mysteries that people wanted resolved, they felt they were remaining thematically and artistically true to their creative enterprise and the entertainment experience that we had, which was the conversation about it, the debating about it, the comparison of theories about it, the arguing over it. They tried to thread that needle right at the end with an ending about, “how can we give closure and how can we end the story on our terms that is also satisfying to the audience but is true to the greater whole of this show?” Tricky, tricky. Because it makes you aware that you fundamentally usually watch something and endings usually come to us.

When we get an ending to a story or a final chapter of a story or a final shot, you realize that they’re fundamnetally different animals than the entertainment experience that preceeded it as a whole. The entertainment experience that preceeds an ending is all about sustained tension and sustained mystery, and that final thing is just resolution.

Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.
Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.

Endings often just can’t win. Most screenwriters will tell you the hardest part of any movie, any story to tell, is just the end. It’s the thing that changes the most, it’s the endings that are the most fought over among collaborators, they’re the things that are just the hardest to land. Some people get it really, really right, some people get it really, really wrong, and some people land anywhere in-between and our attitudes about them can change. The thing about controversial endings, though, is this: five years from now, my friend, we will all say that the ending of Mass Effect 3 was genius! We’ll catch up to it.

I’m not going to say that people feel that way about Lost, but I would say that people feel that way about The Sopranos. Many, many years after the ending of The Sopranos, The Sopranos just ignited a storm of “oh, that was genius! Genius!” “Genius? Are you kidding me? They wimped out! They didn’t have the guts to tell us what they wanted!” Which is the final fate of Tony Soprano. Defenders of that finale said “Yes, they did. Don’t you get it?” and the people who hate it go “Wait, you’re saying that I’m stupid?” And you go into that downward spiral. Years later, the truth of the matter is, the people who hated it then are probably no greater fans of it now, but in the cooling of it all, the cooling of the vitriol, there is some appreciation. There is grudging appreciation in that camp of “I get what he was saying. I get what he was going for.” And, ultimately, what you remember is that “I defined my enjoyment of that series not by that final moment, but by seven, eight seasons of the greatest television show even written.” That’s how we remember The Sopranos. I think that’s how that’s the fans of Lost are going to remember that show. I think that, for better or worse, the final season of that show will be remembered as something of a cautionary tale. I happen to love it. Do I love it as much as the five seasons before? No, but I really respect and like and was moved by what they did. I think, the further we get away from Lost, it will get more defined by the things that it did right and revolutionary versus the issue of audience satisfaction.

I think Mass Effect as a franchise, these three games taken together, I just can’t see how it’s not regarded as anything less than a landmark. There’s so many things to enjoy about these games and this world and the creative accomplishment of this series than just those final moments. When I played those first two games, the narrative arc of it is maybe one of the things I like the least. I love the way it looks, I love the character design, I love these worlds--there’s so much to really enjoy and love about it. Given some time, people will remember all of what they loved about this thing and now the resolution of it all.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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jakonovski

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@pyrodactyl said:

@SpaceInsomniac said:

@pyrodactyl said:

Oh it will be pretty easy to ignore after the rest of the audience stab the guy who ask the question...

I'm sure the popular stance on the internet is becoming ''fuck the discussion on ME3's ending'' and that's very sad

I think the VAST majority of people thinking that way are NOT Mass Effect fans. Especially on this site, they're just pissed that they see ME3 ending threads all over the main forum page. Those people won't be anywhere near the ME3 panel at PAX.

@Hailinel was talking about the PAX east bombcast.

I'm sure if someone asks a ME3 question on that panel there's gonna be blood...

If it's not coming from the audience, Jeff is just going to pull out a handgun and shoot the guy

Naw, I trust Jeff's enough of a professional to realize that his thoughts on the subject are in demand, and it's entirely valid to ask questions about it.

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jakonovski

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@Darksideshadow said:

Have to make stupid insensitive comment. No don't do it! But, but I have to! No must resist!!....meh screw it.

IT´S A GAME. GET OVER IT!

.

I know, right. All these people on a gaming site, talking about games. What the fuck is wrong with them?

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Lugixx

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@pyrodactyl: I agree with Butz (tehe). Mass effect 2 was where it all fell apart for me. But as I've said, I merely pointed out to Liquidus that Mass Effect DOES break its internal logic, when he said it didn't. I'm sorry for any confusion that I may have caused :/

Now, if you were to say that Mass Effect 2 was narratively coherent, then you would have a real battle on your hands :D

EDIT: It also matters to what extent you break internal logic, obviously, otherwise my suspension of disbelief is entirely shattered (which is rather important in hard sci-fi)

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I hope we aren't implying here that Mass Effect is hard sci fi

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Magesx

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complement*

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@Lugixx said:

@pyrodactyl: I haven't played Mass Effect 3, so I can't say anything on the matter. I also said "off the top of my head. This is also only related to mass effect fields and biotics. And these aren't game breaking plot holes. these are inconsistencies. I can get into those instead if you wish.

@Liquidus: I don't want a giant quotation, so...

1. Yes, there is a huge distinction, which is that a supernova is a lot stronger.

2. No, I'm talking about when he's talking with Samara in her room. For the sake of clarity, I mean as the Normandy has Mass Effect shields. He stares directly at a star (not the sun, my mistake)

3. Yet you aren't hurt until they go down. You should be hurt directly by the sun.

4.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_core Yes, I did mean the galactic core. There is a massive, dense collection of stars there, and engaging FTL in it would be suicide. This isn't just debris which you can just push away. These are STARS. (capslock for effect)

5. I agree. I should have said "without any injuries". He was in a vacuum for roughly 20 seconds. That would result in loss of consciousness, frostburns, and swelling of skin. I cannot find any support for your claim that it is mass effect fields that keep air in the citadel.

6. Yet Samara and Jack doesn't have any protection power like Jacob, which he has been training for at least several years of his life. A power which is very similar to the task which needs to be done. I'm not saying that Jack and Samara shouldn't be able to do it, I'm saying that Jacob should be able to do it to.

Okay, I feel like we're gonna start going around in circles here so I'll try the best I can to wrap this up.

1. Yes, a supernova is definitely far more powerful than an asteroid hitting an object HOWEVER an asteroid is a large physical object while a supernova is emitted energy and radiation. That was the distinction I was talking about. The nature of their power is wildly different so I can accept the fact that a mass relay could survive a supernova. You don't. That's fine.

2. I'm still not sure what you're talking about. I don't remember any time when talking with Samara does Shepard stare directly at a star. The only view in her room is of space and there's billions of stars there, staring at those would have no affect on Shepard.

3. That's in service of gameplay.

4. Even so, I don't remember if or when Joker actually engaged FTL. He escaped and entered the galactic core using the Omega 4 Relay.

5. I think it was less than 20 seconds. Also, during that scene the Normandy is on fire and smoking.....in space. So, you'll have to accredit certain things to suspension of disbelief. Also, this is taken from the Mass Effect wiki copy of the in-game codex "The Wards are open-topped, with skyscrapers rising from the superstructure. Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields." http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Citadel_and_Galactic_Government#Citadel_Conventions

6. Samara is an asari justicar and Jack is the most powerful human biotic so wouldn't it stand to reason that only the most powerful biotics on your squad would be able to generate a powerful enough biotic shield? And once again, you're arguing something that was in service of gameplay. They wanted to make Jacob to be more of a tank during gameplay. Don't see what that should affect the story beats.

I see where you're getting at. All these are bending the rules that Bioware set with the games but none of them break anything at all. And honestly, all of those are REALLY nitpicking to find inconsistencies. Like pyrodactyl said, it didn't break narrative coherence. Getting back to the real issue, ME3's ending DOES break narrative coherence and if you haven't beaten the game yet, then really you don't understand what everyone is outraged about. Now, I'm not sure if you plan on playing ME3 or not but if you don't then this video absolutely sums up the reason why the ending is bad from a narrative perspective.

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trucksimulator

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@Liquidus said:

@Lugixx said:

@Liquidus said:

@Lugixx said:

@Oni said:

@golguin said:

@purplethoughnotquite said:

I hate to burst your bubble, but all this biotic power and mass effect tech nonsense is space magic.

This specific argument grates me. Yes, you could argue it is space magic, but there are limits to it throughout all of the games. Sure, the explanation is technobabble, but there's still an internal logic to the mass relays and biotic powers that the game respects and doesn't break. They're not catch-all plot devices used to explain away every ridiculous plot twist (nanomachines). It has absolutely nothing in common with the deus ex machina introduced in the game's eleventh hour.

I can think of a lot of inconsistencies with the mass effect technology and moments when they break the internal logic. They may not be catch-all plot devices, but sure as hell aren't consistent with it, and every time I notice it I'm drawn out of the experience. It may not be as bad as nanomachines, but it's still pretty bad.

Name them. Seriously, name "a lot" of inconsistencies with the mass effect technology in the games because I can't even think of one. Since the first game, the rules were set on what biotics, mass effect fields, etc. could do and could not and the series stuck by those rules pretty closely. Bending the rules slightly for a cool moment in the game IS NOT the same as breaking internal logic.

Off the top of my head?

1. A mass effect relay being able to survive a supernova, but can be destroyed by an asteroid.

2. Shepard looking right into the sun.

3. Tali's recruitment mission, where the sun is blazing yet the kinetic barriers protect shepard

4. Joker engaging FTL drive in the galactic core.

5. Joker surviving in the vacuum of space

6. Jacob being able to do the strongest biotic barrier in the game, but cannot do the bubble on the suicide mission.

I can find more if you'll like, this was just what jumped out at me.

Okay, (I numbered yours just for the sake of ease)

1. Not an inconsistency as there's a pretty big distinction between an asteroid hitting it and energy from a supernova hitting it.

2. Are you talking about when he's in the Illusive Man's office? That has nothing to do with mass effect tech.

3. Kinetic barriers don't protect you from the sun on that mission. They go down really fast which was part of that mission.

4. How is this an inconsistency exactly?

5. Mass effect fields, it was well established in ME1 that mass effect fields can protect someone from the vacuum of space(the Citadel for example). And if you're talking about those few seconds he is in the vacuum of space, that isn't enough to kill someone. NASA did some studies and found that a human body could survive in the vacuum of space without a suit for like a minute before you'd die. http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

6. Are you talking about him as a squadmate? Like statistically speaking? That doesn't mean much as Jack and Samara(the only two who can successfully do the bubble) were already established as extremely powerful biotics, Jack being the most powerful human biotic ever.

Besides, all these are pretty minor when compared with the ending of ME3 where the fate of the galaxy is at hand.

I'm not part of this conversation so I'm not adding in; I just wanted to point out how badly handled the quoting scheme is right now. It looks like I said the very first thing, which is just idiotic. I know what suspension of disbelief is, I wouldn't ever say that.
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@galloughs said:

This sure is an awfully masturbatory article. "Check out these great thoughts I have! This other random guy also agrees with them!"

When it comes down to it, regardless of the control players think they have over their story in Mass Effect, it's still a story being told to the player, rather than being written by her.

One of the greatest legacies of the series will be, I think, the fact that BioWare gave players the illusion of choice, so much so that when it comes to an ending where consequences are dictated to them it inflames the sort of reaction we've seen. Say what you want about the end of Shepard's story, people will definitely remember it for the uproar it's created.

And when it comes down to it, in a medium that has stagnated for years (maybe even decades), telling a story that actually excites the minds of those who the story is being told to is a much better legacy to leave behind than just "Man, Shepard sure did pull through in the end!"

I would say it's legacy is going to be "a major video game series that infuriate certain players with it's ending," not that it had a 'story' that excited people. And that is a rather bad legacy to have in my opinion. (Plus there have quite a few games out there with great stories (subjective) so, i disagree with your assertion that the medium is stagnated (which is also subjective, but than again, most of what we are talking about is, but since you presented your opinions as facts, i felt the need to point out that they aren't).

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My background on nerd media endings to prove I don't just hate everything first:

Lost - loved it (Vincent + Jack in jungle, so many tears)

The Wire - season 5 was a bit weird, but still great

BSG - no problems worth spergin about (IMO)

The Stand - Terrible! I grew up with that series and if there is anything that deserves to be redone, it is that last book, now that King isn't as afraid of dying before finishing them.

Red Dead Redemption - Best video game ending ever (both of them). That wasn't a happy ending, but people didn't cry about it because it made sense!

So, does this prove that I wont complain just because I'm entitled? ME3 was fine. But, the ending was not acceptable. At all. If I was 5 years old and bought a choose your own adventure book, and all of the endings turned to page 79 no matter what, I should expect my money back.

Also, the choices presented don't even fit with the themes of the rest of the series. The end is all based off the idea that creations will rise up and destroy creators, and this is a bad thing. But, the entire series was about helping new powers deal with problems of their elders.

Patrick, please note that there are way more people like me who were disappointed but didn't freak out over it. I'm just going on with my life but it is too bad that the most interesting new franchise in the industry honestly did have a worse ending than a CYOA book. If the indoctrination ending dlc already existed and is coming out soon, then I will be happy to play it. Something slapped together that says Shepard survived and got to have lots more sex will just make things wose.

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@pyrodactyl: I tried but I just can't make it through the faux Redlettermedia style. And I don't think they explain everything nor do I think they have to. 
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@Liquidus: Yeah I feel that as well, but It has been nice having a civilized conversation for once. Anyway...

1. No, I accept it as well. The narrative just doesn't give us enough exposition to why this is possible, which makes it seem very implausible. I shouldn't have to invent the narrative just because the writer felt lazy.

2. Well, I do. Don't really know what else to say. i can find a video later if you want.

3. They could've easily fixed this. Make it hard rain, hail or something like that. It never had to break the lore.

4. He totally does, which is very odd. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o-ocHDl0FI Around the 27 minutes mark.

5. It was around 20 seconds (I timed it for this argument because I'm a nerd) And the codex entry proves that Mass Effect shields can't hold oxygen on their own. I know it's weird to say, but explosions in space never bother me. I'm just to used to it.

6.Again, i don't see how this was in service of the gameplay. He could've still have been a perfectly capable tank. This would've made much more sense than him having leadership skills which we never see, and barely hear of. Heck, they could've even made him have multiple roles. This could've easily been rectified. In fact, all of these could've been. They just didn't give a fuck.

I'd agree that half my points are nitpicky. No more. And Narrative Coherence is relative to the person experiencing the narrative. It was never my intention to make a statement about the ending to ME3, as I've said I merely pointed out that Mass Effect doesn't have a well made internal logic put behind it. I replied to your claim that it did. I'll say it again. IT WAS NEVER MY INTENTION TO MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE ENDING TO MASS EFFECT 3. I never defended it in my posts, I never doubted anyone who was upset with it and I never claimed it to be coherent.

The only thing I said wasn't narratively coherent was ME2, but that wasn't even part of my argument.

*sigh* The more I think about it, the more I think this entire discussion has been a misunderstanding. Anyway, feel free to respond, but I'm probably not going to. It's getting pretty late here in Sweden.

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@Marokai said:

@Oni said:

This whole thing is beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other industry where valid criticism of a commercial product is widely ridiculed/marginalized by the press. Granted, we're seeing the tide change somewhat, and this article certainly isn't as patronizing/condescending as most, but it still feels incredibly pithy. The thrust seems to be "You can't please everyone with an ending" and "In time people will appreciate it." Empty platitudes. It doesn't really add anything to the conversation, and it's clear Jensen hasn't played it, so why is Patrick even talking to him in the first place? Not to be rude, but there simply isn't anything meaningful someone who's not finished the game can say, which this article plainly demonstrates.

Most of the responses in this thread have been pretty civil as far as I've seen, yet there are still plenty of comments to the tune of "I can't believe these whiny/spoiled/entitled/angry brats." Even Gerstmann's formspring (http://www.formspring.me/jeffgerstmann/q/310270218972699052). We have content creators sticking up for each other (press and developers) because they have a better relationship than with their fans and because both sides know what it's like to be "yelled at" in comments.

Mass Effect 3 is a commercial product. If you are not satisfied, let your voice be heard in a civil manner, as most of you are doing. You're being acknowledged, and maybe someday even the press in their ivory towers will come down to see what the noise is actually about.

What a completely insane formspring response from Jeff, there. Never before have I seen such a controversy in video games that seemed to rely on one side just making shit up out of thin air in how most people are reacting. 90+% of the responses here have been civil and right on point, and have focused on a really critical issue of how completely disconnected the games media seems to be from the general public. That's really important stuff that seems to get sidelined in favor of total copouts like that answer from Jeff. It amazes me so few people on this site seem to realize how much most of the bomb crew seem to hold much of this community in utter contempt and feel perfectly free to shit on their own creation with little reason. This has nothing to do with "entitlement" or people being "whiny," you're absolutely right. This issue is summed up by people in the media and the game industry that use those insults as an excuse to just dismiss anything legitimate. It's the business equivalent of calling something you don't want to seriously respond to "trolling" just so you feel like you can declare victory. Ugh, sorry. I guess I got a little sidetracked there, but this controversy is compounded by so many other problems at this point. It is the easiest thing in the world to beat up on a fanbase and that intellectually lazy nonsense has to stop, and not just with Mass Effect.

I agree that it's super fucked up that the entire media seems to be sporting blinders to the fact (and if you don't think this is a fact, you're really blind) that there is a MASSIVE disconnect between the writers and their audience at the moment. The disappointment and criticism of the ending isn't even the main concern to me anymore, it's that the press is simply not doing their job: They aren't being critical of the things that they're ostensibly critiquing, and they aren't representing their communities (fairly) at all. It should be the fucking press laying it on Bioware for this, not the fans! Of course I don't expect every critic to agree with the movement, but there is almost NO ONE willing to write an article that's calling out Bioware. Don't shit where you eat, I guess. It's incredibly disappointing, and I've lost almost all faith in this entire field of 'journalism' over this debacle. Games writers need to seriously reevaluate their role, their goals and the way they go about their business if this industry wants to be respectable.

Of course, I believe that this is the entire reason why the press isn't really speaking out: It's hard to admit that you're wrong, and maybe even harder to admit that you're not really in touch with your audience at all.

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@XNaphryz said:

From what I understand, people are upset about the ending because:

- It gives no sense of closure to anything in the game

- It ignores all of your previous choices and essentially gives you one ending

- It forces characters to break from their personalities in a very contrived manner

- It raises numerous questions and creates serious plot holes

- It does not fit with the themes and ideas from the rest of the game and series

I don't think a lot of people would've minded a depressing ending or whatever, as long as it was presented well and provided closure. They just want a well produced ending, not necessarily a "happy" one.

So in a nutshell:

This is exactly my feeling. I'm not mad at the ending, just disappointed by the lack of closure. It would have been nice to have a few paragraphs at the end talking about each character/race, like they did with Dragon Age: Origins. That is exactly the kind of ending I would have liked. Have a definite conclusion that made sense in the context of the story and then tell me what happened to all of the other people the main character interacted with. The ending came out of left field, and it seemed they could have had it happen at the beginning of the game, and it would have given me the same emotional impact: None. They could have at least made it make logical sense in terms of that world, beyond a sentence or two giving a quick, dismissive reason.

I ended up not really caring what happened to everyone else or anything else that happened in my journey, because the end just invalidated it. Even if they left the game in a cliffhanger, I would have felt better about the overall experience. They say the important part is the journey, but if the end is irrelevant to the journey, then what is the point? They are completely disjointed in a manner that gave me no other feelings than disappointment. So whatever point they were trying to get across just fell completely flat.

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lets put it simply:

the ending of mass 3 pissed people off, AND it wasn't what people expected or wanted

the ending of portal 2 wasn't what people expected or wanted, but they LOVED IT

Creativity is always acknowledged, the fans can see past the bullshit as a collective voice.

The Sopranos is a good example of die hard fans knowing a planned thing that never made it into the final work of art, and that knowledge of the creation process ruining the appreciation of the art. Maybe Mass Effect 3 is a victim of this.

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@Oni said:

@Marokai said:

@Oni said:

This whole thing is beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other industry where valid criticism of a commercial product is widely ridiculed/marginalized by the press. Granted, we're seeing the tide change somewhat, and this article certainly isn't as patronizing/condescending as most, but it still feels incredibly pithy. The thrust seems to be "You can't please everyone with an ending" and "In time people will appreciate it." Empty platitudes. It doesn't really add anything to the conversation, and it's clear Jensen hasn't played it, so why is Patrick even talking to him in the first place? Not to be rude, but there simply isn't anything meaningful someone who's not finished the game can say, which this article plainly demonstrates.

Most of the responses in this thread have been pretty civil as far as I've seen, yet there are still plenty of comments to the tune of "I can't believe these whiny/spoiled/entitled/angry brats." Even Gerstmann's formspring (http://www.formspring.me/jeffgerstmann/q/310270218972699052). We have content creators sticking up for each other (press and developers) because they have a better relationship than with their fans and because both sides know what it's like to be "yelled at" in comments.

Mass Effect 3 is a commercial product. If you are not satisfied, let your voice be heard in a civil manner, as most of you are doing. You're being acknowledged, and maybe someday even the press in their ivory towers will come down to see what the noise is actually about.

What a completely insane formspring response from Jeff, there. Never before have I seen such a controversy in video games that seemed to rely on one side just making shit up out of thin air in how most people are reacting. 90+% of the responses here have been civil and right on point, and have focused on a really critical issue of how completely disconnected the games media seems to be from the general public. That's really important stuff that seems to get sidelined in favor of total copouts like that answer from Jeff. It amazes me so few people on this site seem to realize how much most of the bomb crew seem to hold much of this community in utter contempt and feel perfectly free to shit on their own creation with little reason. This has nothing to do with "entitlement" or people being "whiny," you're absolutely right. This issue is summed up by people in the media and the game industry that use those insults as an excuse to just dismiss anything legitimate. It's the business equivalent of calling something you don't want to seriously respond to "trolling" just so you feel like you can declare victory. Ugh, sorry. I guess I got a little sidetracked there, but this controversy is compounded by so many other problems at this point. It is the easiest thing in the world to beat up on a fanbase and that intellectually lazy nonsense has to stop, and not just with Mass Effect.

I agree that it's super fucked up that the entire media seems to be sporting blinders to the fact (and if you don't think this is a fact, you're really blind) that there is a MASSIVE disconnect between the writers and their audience at the moment. The disappointment and criticism of the ending isn't even the main concern to me anymore, it's that the press is simply not doing their job: They aren't being critical of the things that they're ostensibly critiquing, and they aren't representing their communities (fairly) at all. It should be the fucking press laying it on Bioware for this, not the fans! Of course I don't expect every critic to agree with the movement, but there is almost NO ONE willing to write an article that's calling out Bioware. Don't shit where you eat, I guess. It's incredibly disappointing, and I've lost almost all faith in this entire field of 'journalism' over this debacle. Games writers need to seriously reevaluate their role, their goals and the way they go about their business if this industry wants to be respectable.

Of course, I believe that this is the entire reason why the press isn't really speaking out: It's hard to admit that you're wrong, and maybe even harder to admit that you're not really in touch with your audience at all.

This was what I was saying two weeks ago. I lost all respect for Vox Games and at least a dozen journalists because as soon as Ray put out that message, everybody was condemning the fans and shitting on us. I'm talking hardcore vitriol. It was fucking embarrassing. Never have I seen an entire industry rally against the fans in a manner in which they deceive their entire audience for the sake of, well, I don't know really. Nobody is willing to look at the situation critically, or even just read the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of well-thought out responses and why we feel the way we do. All they do is look at the Facebook Mass Effect 3 comments, assume everybody is an entitled brat and use that as their talking position.

And Jeff's FormSpring response just got my blood boiling. That is the type of bullshit that needs to stop.

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I would agree at some level that games are similar to movies in the sense that they are works of art which are derived from a singular mind or in this case a small group of minds. However the multiple game ending precedent and bar I might add was already established by Chrono Trigger so many years ago. They at least had clarity of thought to have 12 or so completely different endings! Mass Effect 3 dropped the ball in that this was their chance to do the same. There is no excuse for not getting the ending right here as the game was really designed for the poly-ending we really had been wishing for.

I think Biowares response however should be to change or add new endings. It would set a "good" precedent for showing how media isn't just owned by the people who make it, but is also voted on and consumed by the people who love it.

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@Napalm said:

@Oni said:

@Marokai said:

@Oni said:

This whole thing is beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other industry where valid criticism of a commercial product is widely ridiculed/marginalized by the press. Granted, we're seeing the tide change somewhat, and this article certainly isn't as patronizing/condescending as most, but it still feels incredibly pithy. The thrust seems to be "You can't please everyone with an ending" and "In time people will appreciate it." Empty platitudes. It doesn't really add anything to the conversation, and it's clear Jensen hasn't played it, so why is Patrick even talking to him in the first place? Not to be rude, but there simply isn't anything meaningful someone who's not finished the game can say, which this article plainly demonstrates.

Most of the responses in this thread have been pretty civil as far as I've seen, yet there are still plenty of comments to the tune of "I can't believe these whiny/spoiled/entitled/angry brats." Even Gerstmann's formspring (http://www.formspring.me/jeffgerstmann/q/310270218972699052). We have content creators sticking up for each other (press and developers) because they have a better relationship than with their fans and because both sides know what it's like to be "yelled at" in comments.

Mass Effect 3 is a commercial product. If you are not satisfied, let your voice be heard in a civil manner, as most of you are doing. You're being acknowledged, and maybe someday even the press in their ivory towers will come down to see what the noise is actually about.

What a completely insane formspring response from Jeff, there. Never before have I seen such a controversy in video games that seemed to rely on one side just making shit up out of thin air in how most people are reacting. 90+% of the responses here have been civil and right on point, and have focused on a really critical issue of how completely disconnected the games media seems to be from the general public. That's really important stuff that seems to get sidelined in favor of total copouts like that answer from Jeff. It amazes me so few people on this site seem to realize how much most of the bomb crew seem to hold much of this community in utter contempt and feel perfectly free to shit on their own creation with little reason. This has nothing to do with "entitlement" or people being "whiny," you're absolutely right. This issue is summed up by people in the media and the game industry that use those insults as an excuse to just dismiss anything legitimate. It's the business equivalent of calling something you don't want to seriously respond to "trolling" just so you feel like you can declare victory. Ugh, sorry. I guess I got a little sidetracked there, but this controversy is compounded by so many other problems at this point. It is the easiest thing in the world to beat up on a fanbase and that intellectually lazy nonsense has to stop, and not just with Mass Effect.

I agree that it's super fucked up that the entire media seems to be sporting blinders to the fact (and if you don't think this is a fact, you're really blind) that there is a MASSIVE disconnect between the writers and their audience at the moment. The disappointment and criticism of the ending isn't even the main concern to me anymore, it's that the press is simply not doing their job: They aren't being critical of the things that they're ostensibly critiquing, and they aren't representing their communities (fairly) at all. It should be the fucking press laying it on Bioware for this, not the fans! Of course I don't expect every critic to agree with the movement, but there is almost NO ONE willing to write an article that's calling out Bioware. Don't shit where you eat, I guess. It's incredibly disappointing, and I've lost almost all faith in this entire field of 'journalism' over this debacle. Games writers need to seriously reevaluate their role, their goals and the way they go about their business if this industry wants to be respectable.

Of course, I believe that this is the entire reason why the press isn't really speaking out: It's hard to admit that you're wrong, and maybe even harder to admit that you're not really in touch with your audience at all.

This was what I was saying two weeks ago. I lost all respect for Vox Games and at least a dozen journalists because as soon as Ray put out that message, everybody was condemning the fans and shitting on us. I'm talking hardcore vitriol. It was fucking embarrassing. Never have I seen an entire industry rally against the fans in a manner in which they deceive their entire audience for the sake of, well, I don't know really. Nobody is willing to look at the situation critically, or even just read the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of well-thought out responses and why we feel the way we do. All they do is look at the Facebook Mass Effect 3 comments, assume everybody is an entitled brat and use that as their talking position.

And Jeff's FormSpring response just got my blood boiling. That is the type of bullshit that needs to stop.

Yeah, I hate quotes within quotes within quotes as much as the next guy. But these all bring up a valid point or two. I as well have had my faith in the games journalism industry shaken to the core due to the handling of this controversy. For as many brilliant minds the gaming press has, one would think that there would be one notable proponent to the outcry.

And, no, I am not speaking of someone who should come alongside the critical masses and shovel shit in Bioware's face regarding the nitpicky logic holes in the ending. No. What I want is for someone to actually take a few hours, reach out to the community's most well spoken minds on the topic and put an ear to ground on this issue. (there are some here on GB and on neogaf's spoiler thread and I'm sure elsewhere) Then, in response to the massive collective attacks from the gaming press, post an article on a reputable site that not only brings attention to the more sane arguments, but also empathizes with said audience. After all, it would seem that the journalists in the most keen position to understand and give a well worded voice to an audience would be some of the guys here at GB and a few other select sites.

Instead, we are only getting articles from outside of the gaming spectrum in our defense. The California Literary Review, some no name contributor to Forbes who uses his contributory platform to have a small voice and maybe a few bits here and there come to mind. Whereas in the game's press, it is a complete circle jerk of defenders and mockers of the 'entitled'. Even PC Gamer Podcast's spoiler portion where they specifically claimed to stay away from what the remainder of the press had done to the fans, they too were too lazy to actually listen to why fans had issues with the handling of the ending. Not only did they not bother to actually read the quotes from Bioware and instead attempted to paraphrase them, but they got those and many other points of contention flat out wrong. Then their call out to the community to voice their opinions resulted in three voicemails at the end of the show. One was about the Javik DLC debate which to be honest, is the least of people's concern nowadays. And the other two were either mirroring points made throughout the podcast by the contributors or being 'that' guy calling out everyone who did not like the ending as being entitled. They merely used his voicemail to get around their promise to stay civil, and more or less agreed with him in the end. And of course, there was not one voicemail to represent the other side of the coin.

I could go on, but this is already entering TLDR territory.

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@Najaf said:

@Napalm said:

Yeah, I hate quotes within quotes within quotes as much as the next guy. But these all bring up a valid point or two. I as well have had my faith in the games journalism industry shaken to the core due to the handling of this controversy. For as many brilliant minds the gaming press has, one would think that there would be one notable proponent to the outcry.

And, no, I am not speaking of someone who should come alongside the critical masses and shovel shit in Bioware's face regarding the nitpicky logic holes in the ending. No. What I want is for someone to actually take a few hours, reach out to the communities most well spoken minds on the topic and put an ear to ground on this issue. (there are some here on GB and on neogaf's spoiler thread and I'm sure elsewhere) Then, in response to the massive collective attacks from the gaming press, post an article on a reputable site that not only brings attention to the more sane arguments, but also empathizes with said audience. After all, it would seem that the journalists in the most keen position to understand and give a well worded voice to an audience would be some of the guys here at GB and a few other select sites.

Instead, we are only getting articles from outside of the gaming spectrum in our defense. The California Literary Review, some no name contributor to Forbes who uses his contributory platform to have a small voice and maybe a few bits here and there come to mind. Whereas in the game's press, it is a complete circle jerk of defenders and mockers of the 'entitled'. Even PC Gamer Podcast's spoiler portion where they specifically claimed to stay away from what the remainder of the press had done to the fans, they too were too lazy to actually listen to why fans had issues with the handling of the ending. Not only did they not bother to actually read the quotes from Bioware and instead attempted to paraphrase them, but they got those and many other points of contention flat out wrong. Then their call out to the community to voice their opinions resulted in three voicemails at the end of the show. One was about the Javik DLC debate which to be honest, is the least of people's concern nowadays. And the other two were either mirroring points made throughout the podcast by the contributors or being 'that' guy calling out everyone who did not like the ending as being entitled. They merely used his voicemail to get around their promise to stay civil, and more or less agreed with him in the end. And of course, there was not one voicemail to represent the other side of the coin of course.

I could go on, but this is already entering TLDR territory.

I too have given the benefit of the doubt to the gaming press, hoping they had the integrity to minimise the apparent conflict of interest.

For me it's not about Mass Effect anymore though I applaud the articulate and civil critiques the communities have provided.

This entire debacle has just opened my eyes to how hostile the gaming press is to their audience and the contempt they have for the communities.

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Well I pushed to the end faster than I would have normally because I didn't think I'd be able to remain spoiler free much longer.

And now that it's over.. I have to say-- I was fine with the end. In fact, the more I mull it over, the more I like it.

I'll never know to what extent I've been swayed by the sheer force of the hype (expecting the worst). It's also true that I tend to be pretty forgiving of endings in general (the less explicitly they're written, then more room I have to make up my own resolutions).

I guess I shouldn't say this out loud-- I may be lynched! ;^)

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@Diachron said:

Well I pushed to the end faster than I would have normally because I didn't think I'd be able to remain spoiler free much longer.

And now that it's over.. I have to say-- I was fine with the end. In fact, the more I mull it over, the more I like it.

I'll never know to what extent I've been swayed by the sheer force of the hype (expecting the worst). It's also true that I tend to be pretty forgiving of endings in general (the less explicitly they're written, then more room I have to make up my own resolutions).

I guess I shouldn't say this out loud-- I may be lynched! ;^)

Nope I'm glad you liked the ending, I didn't, though I suspect I hated it less than most people. But kudos to you for not calling people entitled, crybabies, or whiners for expressing their opinion.

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@bucky: Yes, but that question was asked assuming the players did not get the "happy ending" that they wanted and they feel entitled to a "happy ending". This question was asked based on a context that is already flawed, thus the response will also try to answer a point that is entirely not the main cause of the problem. However, because it is answering "entitlement" people will feel that it is addressing the real problem at hand. It is basically asking questions that tries to lead the person into giving an answer the interviewer wants instead of the actual truth.

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if they make some kind of epilogue dlc it better be free at least or ill have a hard time buying from Bioware ever again

if they make some dlc that deals with side stuff like playing as anderson on earth or something i would be down for that

if they happen to make epilogue dlc and make it free i would be down for paying for side story dlc.

they dont have to, but it would be nice.

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Chubbaluphigous

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I really appreciate what Patrick is doing with this story, but there is too much emphasis on the "happy ending" aspect. I don't know if it is because it is an easier article to write or just a more interesting one. For me the absolute breaking point of the ending is misuse of the technological singularity and the delivery mechanism for it. It is a way over done Sci Fi cliche, and doesn't logically fit in the Mass Effect Universe. I am completely fine with an open ended bittersweet ending as long as everything makes sense and is executed well. Instead at the end Bioware dropped its pants and started doing Spirit Fingers while going on about Jazz Hands.

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@JasonGeorge said:

@Diachron said:

Well I pushed to the end faster than I would have normally because I didn't think I'd be able to remain spoiler free much longer.

And now that it's over.. I have to say-- I was fine with the end. In fact, the more I mull it over, the more I like it.

I'll never know to what extent I've been swayed by the sheer force of the hype (expecting the worst). It's also true that I tend to be pretty forgiving of endings in general (the less explicitly they're written, then more room I have to make up my own resolutions).

I guess I shouldn't say this out loud-- I may be lynched! ;^)

Nope I'm glad you liked the ending, I didn't, though I suspect I hated it less than most people. But kudos to you for not calling people entitled, crybabies, or whiners for expressing their opinion.

Just the opposite-- I can see where much of the heat is coming from. And now that I'm finally free to read all the details, I can dive into the counter-arguments to the ending. There's a lot of good points made that I hope don't get lost in general rage.

For my own part, what I like about the end is the room it gives me to connect my own dots, and to leave certain dots unconnected. I often feel boxed in by neat resolutions, and I think the attempted scale of the ending is appropriate to the vast scale of the life/death cycles in the game itself.

What I can't imagine however, is that BioWare thought that an ending this abstract would be popular. I'm very curious to see where this all goes.

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honkyjesus

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Way to take a stand and talk about Mass Effect more.

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benspyda

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They should have got Hideo Kojima to write their ending.

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DTKT

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@Diachron said:

@JasonGeorge said:

@Diachron said:

Well I pushed to the end faster than I would have normally because I didn't think I'd be able to remain spoiler free much longer.

And now that it's over.. I have to say-- I was fine with the end. In fact, the more I mull it over, the more I like it.

I'll never know to what extent I've been swayed by the sheer force of the hype (expecting the worst). It's also true that I tend to be pretty forgiving of endings in general (the less explicitly they're written, then more room I have to make up my own resolutions).

I guess I shouldn't say this out loud-- I may be lynched! ;^)

Nope I'm glad you liked the ending, I didn't, though I suspect I hated it less than most people. But kudos to you for not calling people entitled, crybabies, or whiners for expressing their opinion.

Just the opposite-- I can see where much of the heat is coming from. And now that I'm finally free to read all the details, I can dive into the counter-arguments to the ending. There's a lot of good points made that I hope don't get lost in general rage.

For my own part, what I like about the end is the room it gives me to connect my own dots, and to leave certain dots unconnected. I often feel boxed in by neat resolutions, and I think the attempted scale of the ending is appropriate to the vast scale of the life/death cycles in the game itself.

What I can't imagine however, is that BioWare thought that an ending this abstract would be popular. I'm very curious to see where this all goes.

The issue is that the abstract part of the ending is one of the dumbest thing I've ever seen. It's pseudo "high-minded", it's not well presented and it doesn't make any sense.

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Bourbon_Warrior

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@strings19: I agree about RDR, pretty much any Rockstar games have great endings. But RDR wow! When you started controlling Jack and you hear the gunshot in the distance I gave the TV a slow clap.

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Lord_Punch

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@Bakaneko said:

Not a great article, BTW... It really was too long in the sense that it expended a lot of words on exploring very few concepts or concerns. Also, in that it was essentially two people talking about what they thought other people were talking about about a game/movie... I try to avoid conversations like that since my college days 20 years ago.

I'll summarize my issue with the ending here. I played 2 7/8 games that were strictly space opera: gun fights, humanoid aliens that largely mirrored narrow aspects of the human condition, space battles, action action action... Then at the end, they thought they were writing something high concept akin to 2001 A Space Odyssey and went for a massive tonal shift, and the dilemma they proposed wasn't particular thought provoking OR "bittersweet". It largely was just "puzzling," a non-sequitur there mainly just there to unsettle you. That's a problem with a lot of modern drama writing, that they think that's clever. High Concept Sci-Fi is hard to do, and they didn't succeed.

Oh hell, who am I kidding? I didn't like the ending because it essentially made me realize I'd invested 3 games and 120+ hours into what was essentially Mannequin 3: Seth Green Gets Some.

This demands reposting. Well-done!

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The real ending

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redgonzo

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happy endings

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I don't think that many people realize what the ending to Mass Effect 3 actually is.

That entire last sequence is most likely indoctrination.

Harbinger is using the child to get an emotional response out of Shepard (seriously, why in the fuck would the catalyst be the same child that has been hounding Shepard around in his dreams for the entire game), and there is some debate whether the child ever existed, because Shepard is the only one that ever sees him and he isn't noticed by anyone when he climbs into the shuttle (meaning that harbinger and the other reapers have been planing to indoctrinate Shepard for a long time). The "control reapers" option is colored blue, and when you choose it the child smirks before disappearing, while the "destroy reapers and all synthetics" option is colored red and the child disappears almost immediately after Shepard starts shooting. If you decide to shoot and kill all synthetics, then Shepard wakes up on earth having just recovered from the barrage of lasers that were fired before the dream/indoctrination took place.

So yeah, Bioware is most likely telegraphing that the last choice you make, the three pathways, doesn't really mean anything precisely because it never took place--it was all in Shepard's head. If this is not what they intended, then I would be really surprised. I personally hope that the dlc that shows what happened after Shepard wakes up is free, but the day one dlc doesn't give me much confidence.

Hope that cleared everything up.

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Lord_Punch

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@Thyson said:

I don't think that many people realize what the ending to Mass Effect 3 actually is.

That entire last sequence is most likely indoctrination.

Harbinger is using the child to get an emotional response out of Shepard (seriously, why in the fuck would the catalyst be the same child that has been hounding Shepard around in his dreams for the entire game), and there is some debate whether the child ever existed, because Shepard is the only one that ever sees him and he isn't noticed by anyone when he climbs into the shuttle (meaning that harbinger and the other reapers have been planing to indoctrinate Shepard for a long time). The "control reapers" option is colored blue, and when you choose it the child smirks before disappearing, while the "destroy reapers and all synthetics" option is colored red and the child disappears almost immediately after Shepard starts shooting. If you decide to shoot and kill all synthetics, then Shepard wakes up on earth having just recovered from the barrage of lasers that were fired before the dream/indoctrination took place.

So yeah, Bioware is most likely telegraphing that the last choice you make, the three pathways, doesn't really mean anything precisely because it never took place--it was all in Shepard's head. If this is not what they intended, then I would be really surprised. I personally hope that the dlc that shows what happened after Shepard wakes up is free, but the day one dlc doesn't give me much confidence.

Hope that cleared everything up.

The Bad ending of Silent Hill on PSX did something similar. It ends with showing the protagonist bleeding to death in his car, promoting the idea that the entire game was a hallucination or dream before he finally dies.

But that is why they call it the "Bad" ending. It's the net result of the player doing everything wrong. You can go back into the game, improve upon your decisions, and score a better ending. One more fitting of the effort you put forth.

So, while the Indoctrination Theory is cool to ponder, it is no better an ending than the one we take at face value.

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JABEE

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This article is interesting. I wish Patrick would have represented fan complaints better, though.

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EXTomar

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I don't believe this has been an issue with "player entitlement" but with a developer promsing something they didn't deliver on. This has happened before where Fable 3 is an example I can think of off the top of my head where it feels like the difference with Mass Effect 3 is the degree.

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@Sooty said:

The reason why so many gaming "journalists" are citing fan entitlement is because they don't want to upset their buddy status with BioWare and/or EA. It could risk them getting review copies of games.

That's the only reason I can think of for such ignorance. Don't get me wrong the idiots demanding a new ending are indeed acting entitled, but I still think people are throwing that word around far too easily lately.

Well, that and said journalists just trying to act above the common gamer because they have a job writing for some website.

That's my feeling on all this. EA is huge. EA is sleezy. EA has it's hands in many, many, many pockets. Even Giantbomb can't do anything to ruin their relationship with EA; they still has people in the lower echelons that are worth talking to and GB doesn't want to be cut off from that kind of access by angering the giant overlords.

It's a uncomfortable balance between both the publishers and the journalists and it sucks. It's really everyone's fault.

Personally, I don't even care about the endings. I had already thought about holding off on ME3 when it was announced to be forced Origin, and I solidified that decision when I heard about the abusive day one DLC. Then when I heard that there was a splash screen after the end credits that advertises DLC, I was convinced to never to touch an EA product again.

This anger is much more than just the endings, it was just the last straw in a long line of 15 years of customer abuse.

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No Caption Provided

Hey Patrick,

Just a little diagram to help you out. Feel free to pass it on to all the other "game journalists" out there.

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I think there was way to much hand holding. The was a part of the game where you could not kill that guy who takes that prothien data on theasa. I would shot him and he takes no damage it was like the game machinics took over and the hand hold dragging you along the rabbit whole began. I reloaded and even cheated and could not kill the guy and what got more frustrating is that you go back up to your ship waiting at the coms to say missin failed. Like some dramatic event beyond your control has just taken place. Which was infact what was happening bioware was taking over your flow, your future, and your effect on the out come. That wasn't even the end content. In the end I had edi and tali then as I ran for the beacon they some how left me to run a cross open ground to go back up to the Normandy and escape through the mass effect relay? That made no sense ? We are on a suicide mission you don't just bail on the savor of your home world tali or gave edi a chance at existing. Hey no return ending I am ok with that but some things don't get to be so senseless on the way there. The journey with broken logic out of character happenings is where I got most frustrated with. As for entitled ending I believe that the A B C D got mixed up. Who is with you? how far did they get ? where did they go? and are they and you alive? These basic ending questions are where bioware failed. But I remain believing the biggest reason is when EA bought bioware and 18month rushed this game out. Yes it looks good, what's with multiplayer, but the multi linear story telling and embellishment was left on the ideas table without proper implementation. Tali home world was good I might add I reloaded to see the full spectrium and wow to tali off a cliff.

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@Mike76x said:

The catalyst said it created the reapers to kill organics, so organics wouldn't be killed by synthetics....like the reapers. IT'S STUPID.

Amen. I'm sure everyone has their own personal #1 issue with the ending, and this is mine. A piece of circular logic that is so blatant that I smacked my forehead the moment that piece of dialog was delivered.

Also, as part of this issue, is the fact that Sheppard for the first 150 hours of the game (at least the way I played him) called bullshit on every bit of nonsense ever spouted by another character, but in this instance where even my 12-year-old nephew watched and went "so they're killing you to save you from being killed? That's ridiculous", Sheppard suddenly has nothing to say...

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@Klei said:

People shouldn't bitch about the ending. You don't like it, fine, but it's not yours to change. Want to write a better story? Write a fucking book.

Yup, and some of us could have written and published a book with the time and money spent on Mass Effect over the years. I should have done that, I suppose, but it's too late now. Live and learn. At least the next time I have the option to go buy and play a story-based Bioware game, I'll go work on my book instead. Thanks for the advice.

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Tennmuerti

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@Thyson said:

I don't think that many people realize what the ending to Mass Effect 3 actually is.

That entire last sequence is most likely indoctrination.

Harbinger is using the child to get an emotional response out of Shepard (seriously, why in the fuck would the catalyst be the same child that has been hounding Shepard around in his dreams for the entire game), and there is some debate whether the child ever existed, because Shepard is the only one that ever sees him and he isn't noticed by anyone when he climbs into the shuttle (meaning that harbinger and the other reapers have been planing to indoctrinate Shepard for a long time). The "control reapers" option is colored blue, and when you choose it the child smirks before disappearing, while the "destroy reapers and all synthetics" option is colored red and the child disappears almost immediately after Shepard starts shooting. If you decide to shoot and kill all synthetics, then Shepard wakes up on earth having just recovered from the barrage of lasers that were fired before the dream/indoctrination took place.

So yeah, Bioware is most likely telegraphing that the last choice you make, the three pathways, doesn't really mean anything precisely because it never took place--it was all in Shepard's head. If this is not what they intended, then I would be really surprised. I personally hope that the dlc that shows what happened after Shepard wakes up is free, but the day one dlc doesn't give me much confidence.

Hope that cleared everything up.

Most people in this thread heard the indoctrination theory dozens of times.
And it is mostly found wanting, by a lot of people.
It has been discussed to death. It has more plotholes then the actual ending. If true it actually makes the ending worse on a narative level, because then there is none.
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@Thyson said:

I don't think that many people realize what the ending to Mass Effect 3 actually is.

That entire last sequence is most likely indoctrination.

Harbinger is using the child to get an emotional response out of Shepard (seriously, why in the fuck would the catalyst be the same child that has been hounding Shepard around in his dreams for the entire game), and there is some debate whether the child ever existed, because Shepard is the only one that ever sees him and he isn't noticed by anyone when he climbs into the shuttle (meaning that harbinger and the other reapers have been planing to indoctrinate Shepard for a long time). The "control reapers" option is colored blue, and when you choose it the child smirks before disappearing, while the "destroy reapers and all synthetics" option is colored red and the child disappears almost immediately after Shepard starts shooting. If you decide to shoot and kill all synthetics, then Shepard wakes up on earth having just recovered from the barrage of lasers that were fired before the dream/indoctrination took place.

So yeah, Bioware is most likely telegraphing that the last choice you make, the three pathways, doesn't really mean anything precisely because it never took place--it was all in Shepard's head. If this is not what they intended, then I would be really surprised. I personally hope that the dlc that shows what happened after Shepard wakes up is free, but the day one dlc doesn't give me much confidence.

Hope that cleared everything up.

Stop hallucinating bro & take it for what it is...Very bad writing on Bioware's part.

It seems that people are still in denial of what their eyes have seen (The Crap endings of ME3). I guess seeing really isn't believing for some people.

Example:: I see the number 13 everywhere, only because it's my favorite/lucky number. It doesn't mean it's true, but I would like to think so.

My point:: If you look for something long enough, you will find what you are looking for. Whether it's the truth or not.

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Mike76x

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@Hailinel said:

@Mike76x said:

@Hailinel said:

@BabelTower said:

This may or may not have already been mentioned, but to all the people who are completely baffled by the 180 degree turn of the story in the end... Well, there's this theory going around the net about Shepherd having a very sad times in his head. Something that gnaws at the edge of his mind and tries to distract him from the real problem. The theory is that the ending is Shepherd being indoctrinated. It's all in his head. A battle to be controlled or fighting it off. There's more to see on an interesting Youtube video. Just search for Mass Effect 3 Shepherd Indoctrination, or something. This does give some compelling arguments on what it all means, but nothing is certain of course.

There isn't a thread out of the hundred or so Mass Effect 3 ending threads that currently exist on this forum in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at least seven times. And no, it doesn't answer anything because it doesn't work.

As much as I would love to see the torrent of threads about ME3's ending stop, I would settle for at least one thread in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at all.

The Indoctrination theory works because they put it there on purpose, and the Illusive Man was supposed to be the final boss.

They left it there to intentionally create confusion over the ending, which is the same reason they cut the dialogue where the Catalyst actually explains things.

They had real endings planned and instead decided to make it intentionally vague.

They also had the Prothean mission cut from the game to be DLC. It was not created after the game was finished.

It's in the Mass Effect 3: Final Hours documentary

...Fuck it, I give up up. Arguing with Indoctrination theorists is like talking to a brick wall.

Indoctrination isn't a theory, it was written into the script along with an Illusive Man boss battle and a more informative discussion with the catalyst.

It was decided to mash everything together and remove dialogue so the real ending wouldn't be clear, because Casey Hudson wanted to deliberately troll ME fans.

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caseyg

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Once again this guy has some insightful comments this time on the indoctrination theory rather than the ending:

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@Mike76x

And you have full access to this script how and why? Your claims hold no ground without proof, and I highly doubt you'd supply us all with that proof because you simply don't have it. You have a severe case of denial my friend. No offense but your claims are utterly absurd. The risk is too high and Bioware isn't going to risk the company's reputation by "Trolling The Fans" as you so lightly put it. The game sells itself, why would Bioware need any negative attention? All you really have are speculations and hopes....be honest.

I've seen all the Fan made Videos on this theory and still find myself shaking my head "NO" at every one of them. People are going to see what they want to see.

Too much would have to be changed for the "Indoctrination Theory" (Which is only a theory) to work. Seeing as though you are doing all of Bioware's work for them, making this theory "sorta" make sense...This would be Biowares "Easy way out" because you all seem to want Shepard to be just a tool for the Reapers. Be careful what you wish for...

My point:: If you look for something long enough, you will find what you are looking for. Whether it's the truth or not.

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When Mass Effect is hard sci-fi, where does that put Heinlein, Gibson or Lem, you may wonder.

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Good read but I'm wondering why I care about someone at Entertainment Weekly? I feel we should be trying to book interviews with people at Bioware, but perhaps they aren't talking about the endings or t talking about the endings in a way we want them to.

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Tennmuerti

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@Mike76x said:

@Hailinel said:

@Mike76x said:

@Hailinel said:

@BabelTower said:

This may or may not have already been mentioned, but to all the people who are completely baffled by the 180 degree turn of the story in the end... Well, there's this theory going around the net about Shepherd having a very sad times in his head. Something that gnaws at the edge of his mind and tries to distract him from the real problem. The theory is that the ending is Shepherd being indoctrinated. It's all in his head. A battle to be controlled or fighting it off. There's more to see on an interesting Youtube video. Just search for Mass Effect 3 Shepherd Indoctrination, or something. This does give some compelling arguments on what it all means, but nothing is certain of course.

There isn't a thread out of the hundred or so Mass Effect 3 ending threads that currently exist on this forum in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at least seven times. And no, it doesn't answer anything because it doesn't work.

As much as I would love to see the torrent of threads about ME3's ending stop, I would settle for at least one thread in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at all.

The Indoctrination theory works because they put it there on purpose, and the Illusive Man was supposed to be the final boss.

They left it there to intentionally create confusion over the ending, which is the same reason they cut the dialogue where the Catalyst actually explains things.

They had real endings planned and instead decided to make it intentionally vague.

They also had the Prothean mission cut from the game to be DLC. It was not created after the game was finished.

It's in the Mass Effect 3: Final Hours documentary

...Fuck it, I give up up. Arguing with Indoctrination theorists is like talking to a brick wall.

Indoctrination isn't a theory, it was written into the script along with an Illusive Man boss battle and a more informative discussion with the catalyst.

It was decided to mash everything together and remove dialogue so the real ending wouldn't be clear, because Casey Hudson wanted to deliberately troll ME fans.

Most of the above is speculation.
You take facts in FH as a basis true, but then assign them intentions of writers on your own.

Mass Effect 3: Final Hours documentory does not specify the writers intentions fully one way or another.
In just the same way the Final Hours can be used to completely deconstruct the indoctrination theory.

Indoctrination part was there, they took it out.
Therefore all speculation on Shepard being indoctrinated is by default false, since Bioware decided they did not want to go him being indoctrinated route.
See?
 
They had no plans on post ending DLC.
Hence the end of ME3 is what it is, if your theory is that it is indoctrination then the galaxy is not even saved and Reapers still be reaping, seeing as it's all a dream from the lazor to you waking yp. This makes ME3 ending even worse, considering now there is no real ending.
 
Endings were cut due to the fact that they did not have their shit together towards the end and were limited by time.
Anything infered further is speculation.
 
"You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"
Hence the cut down "high level" conversation with starchild.
This just reads like: "we dumbed down the endings to keep them accessible."
 
If anything Final Hours shows just how much of a giant clusterfuck ME3 ending process was, with shit being undecided right up untill the end.
Stuff was getting cut and changed everywhere.
This isn't some single coherent vision, where they intentinally seeded speculation on indoctrination. This is hooks on Shep indoctrination being left over, when they decided to go in a different direction.
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AlfredoSloth

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@Tennmuerti: Can you explain the plotholes in the indoctrination theory? It certainly can't be as horrible as what we were given.

If Bioware never tells us what happened, then the indoctrination theory could be correct, but so can many other interpretations because they wanted the ending to be open to different perspectives (like the sopranos ending, except worse because almost everything doesn't make sense).

Also, mass relays are supposed to have about the same explosive energy as a star going supernova, which means no more earth (and pretty much every other planet), so I just don't buy the three choices at the end being canon.