So I've been doing pvp in the Dragon Remnants for a couple days now, and I've noticed a trend with the casters.

Most of them will not fight in a fair dueling manner.

Some even going as far as to litter the battlefield around where you are summoned with pyromancy traps.

My main question about this is, why? Magic already has a very powerful advantage at the higher lvls, so why do so many mages feel the need to further tip the scales?

If they come up against another mage and they aren't using every trick they have, they'll just be crippling themselves. I can see why they wouldn't want to pull any punches. Beyond that, who's to say what is a "fair dueling manner"?

people want to rank up, of course they will try to get the win as unfairly as possible.

i'm gonna say because they want to win, and they're trying to win. you don't earn anything for playing according to fake internet honor rules, which aren't defined anywhere

There isnt any rule saying they shouldn't do this, I just want to know why they feel the need to not even wait for you to be summoned before throwing everything but the kitchen sink at you.

You cant even hurt somebody before they have finished being summoned, so there isn't even a point to it all

Here's the thing; there's no such thing as a fair fight in Dark Souls. While there is a sub group, a minority that engages in made up rules that include no healing, always bow, duel with honour, et cetera, that doesn't mean everyone else plays by those rules. At all. You shouldn't expect them to, either. Whether it's a summoned duel or an invasion, always expect the other player to try and win. If you want to feel good about being "honourable" then take a little cutesy bow after the fight is over, otherwise complaining that strangers won't abide by arbitrary rules you made up is just foolish.

That probably sounds a lot harsher than I meant it, but if you want to win, stab the shit out of them. They're squishy wizards. Use a Rebel Greatshield or go Full Havel and stab them to death. It's really not hard at all to roll through spells or pyromancy. In the time it takes a pyromancer to cast Firestorm or Flame Swathe, I'm already behind them and introducing them to the amazing backstab animation on the Mastodon Halberd. It's truly beautiful. The worst that has happened was getting tagged with a Firestorm spell after I had already killed my target.

I think it would be neat if there was some sort of barrier between the players for a few seconds after summoning, so that I could use my "duel bow" gesture before the fighting starts without getting wrecked. I suppose that would also solve your issue with the dueling system. But since that isn't there built into the game, this sort of play just doesn't surprise me.

Fighting a magic user is not the same as fighting another melee character. Their physical attacks are not as strong, so they rely, *gasp*, on their magic. There is nothing unfair about that. You just need to learn how to fight a magic user.

Im doing just fine thank you, they cant damage what they cant hit.

The reason I take issue is that ony 1/10 melee character will do something like this, but its seemed about 8/10 magic users will try.

Is there any real reason for such drastic difference here?

@sterling: Clearly you haven't had a pyro cast chaos firestorm on the spawn point as you're spawning.

@mosespippy: I can't say that I have. I take it this is only an issue for those in the dragon or who drop red signs. I've never had anyone use my red sign before. And I have yet to join the dragons.

Whenever I've been invaded, or have invaded (which I did, like, once) I've used magic. I'm a Sorcerer. I cast magic. That's how I survive in this game. That's how I've built my character for the entire game. If I wasn't using my magic then I'd be gimping myself for no reason.

Not 5 minutes after reading that, and I have to see it in person.

Thank you.

@marokai: im not saying don't use magic, but at least wait tell the guy is summoned before firing off a soul geyser. Otherwise you can't even do damage

@sterling: Happens to me in Belfry Luna, since it's a small area with very few spawn points. That's why I prefer to fight in Belfry Sol, but even then there are very few spawn points.

The most I'll do is enchant my sword prior to a duel. I always give the summoned a moment to get situated and bow, enchant, heal or whatever they need to do before attacking. Basically I let the summoned attack first since I'm at an unfair advantage as the summoner. Soul Spear is more than enough of an advantage.

Oh god, this so hard. Last week I fought a guy and I healed during the fight, and the guy actually left the match using the separation crystal (I came THIS close to killing him while he did it) and then sent me a message telling me "don't heal in pvp". I wanted to actually find him and punch him, but I fought back the urge to reply and tell him what he can do with his quaint sense of honor. EpicUserID. If I ever meet him again, I will wreck his shit with no mercy.

Seriously, don't expect everyone to play by the rules YOU MADE UP. Unless you're participating in a fight club, and people agree on the rules, anything goes in Dark Souls. I may not like it sometimes, but I've never sent anyone hate mail. To be fair, I've done some dickish shit and I never get any, either, except one guy called me a cheater(???). If I try to fight "fair" or don't use the most OP hexes, it's only because I want an actual fight, not because I feel some moral obligation to not use magic simply because the other guy is pure melee. That is literally the game. Guess what, asshole (not you or OP), there's a system for dueling in the game - the statues at the Blue and Red covenants. Anything goes everywhere else, because that. Is. The. Game. It's like telling a guy "don't throw" in Street Fighter. git gud or get rekt.

/rant

@oni: Black Separation is the ultimate anti douche weapon; so good.

Ive actually taken up just tossing corrosive urns at then tell all there things break.

Wonderful fun.

you seem to not understand the fundamental concept of PvP. You've made up these rules in your head about how people should be engaging you in combat, i.e. playing to YOUR strengths. That's not how it's going to go down son.

No, im perfectly fine with them using up some of the more powerful spells they have to throw at me before they can even do damage.

I am simply curious why only the mages seem to be doing this frequently.

I've been watching this exceptionally boring stream (for research, you see) for a bit, it's pretty exciting.

Damnit. I can't stop watching.

I summoned a dragon guy, then proceeded to use the 'duel bow' as a sign of respect. Amidst the animation he shot me with some massive insta-kill sorcery spell.

...Never again.

Speaking of sorceries does any one know if the magic that created a sword swing from the beta actually made it to the final game? Because Im already bored with sorceries being like always 4 variants of fucking soul arrow , and pleae dont tell me that it is another god damned covenant prize.

@aetheldod: It's called Soul Greatsword, and it made it in. And it's found naturally in the environment, like dishonorable wizards (they're the only people I can ever beat, so I'm thankful for them.)

@yummylee: yeah I dont even see how its fun for people to do things like that. It would just get boring.

And soul greatsword is wonderful fun. Makes for fun fights.

In my opinion the build doesn't matter on the question of players going for a fair fight.

There are a lot of guys who summon you to a duel, to just immediately backstab you, or that are running around for upwards of 10 minutes trying to lure you into a trap/to enemies. Which if you think about it, is just ridiculous since it takes more time than loosing once or twice in a normal fight.

Dueling fairly as/with a wizard is definitely possible, since most attacks can easily be evaded with a well-timed roll anyway.

Seriously?

I will bow, EVERY SINGLE TIME before a duel and I expect my opponent to do the same. I think this role playing series has set a certain number of PVP standards over the course of it's iterations and bowing or atleast greeting of players is one of those. This human interaction and courtesy distinguishes it from another random NPC invader fight and is very special in an online game nowadays. It's something I very much appreciate about Dark Souls.

When playing in the rat covenant (pharros' doors), I'm also the type of person that would not exploit the opponents weakness when he is fighting one of the monsters in that area, but actually wait for him to finish and heal. I know that may be taking it a bit too far, but it also resulted in a lot of funny moments when the opponent was so afraid of me interfering in his fight, that he actually lost to the creeps.

If I encounter any cheap tricks during fights (which has only happened once so far), as the ones stated in this thread. I will remeber the person's name and try to avoid fighting them again, since they are not worth my time.

If I encounter an enemy phantom, I will kill them NO MATTER WHAT.

To be fair I've seen plenty of people trying for a backstabe while I spawn and fail miserably. I can rotate the camera guys, cut the crap already.

I give as good as I get. If I get a greeting gesture, I'll give one back and I don't heal unless they do first because I've been through the arduous grass wars of Demon's Souls. However, if you try to gank me where I spawn, expect a Flameswathe up your ass (looking at you Rat King).

meh, I started a knight and branching off into pyro and miracles. Every single magic user I've invaded hides in a corner and starts spewing magic. I just cast acid surge and toxic mist and start chucking urns if I can't get close. If you don't want to fight with a little bit of honor or bravery I'm breaking your shit and leaving you with one hell of a repair bill at the very least. Rebels shield and lighting spear or flame swath usually help to end these guys real fast.

Life isn't fair and neither is Dark Souls

I haven't done much pvping, but of the little I have, it amounts to keeping the other guy away while I hope one of my many attacks catches them off guard. Never taking one or two spell hits to kill them. It's pretty much unavoidable to be cheap, since every magic attack can destroy you, all while mages stay very safe. You don't have to set traps, since stuff like fire swathe or whatever are pretty tricky, and powerful, as a standard attack.

I'm sure a lot of magic users only have soul arrows and have terrible casting speed. What's more likely is they are scared shitless, not trying to be cheap.

Mage tactics arent a problem for me. You can use whatever magic you want. The only problem that really bothers me is that when i get summoned for a duel... I. Cant. Heal. If you want to summon me in for a duel, i would expect a fair fight. But if im winning, and the guy turns tail and tries to heal, i lose all respect for them. Dont summon a guy to a duel if you cant stand to lose it.

As a melee-only person, mages are stupidly easy to dodge. The only times I ever lose to a mage are when they use a dirty trick like that, so I guess that's the reason right there. I don't think I've ever gotten hit by that soul-sword thing, although it looks really cool. I like what they've done with the other new spells, too... still, though, all magic and faith spells are easy to dodge. Pyromancy seems way better than the last game on multiple levels, but I still only die to it when they're doing what you said and planting "mines" everywhere or using that delayed-explosion fire orb while I'm fighting another dude.

@mano521 Yeah that shit sucks. Unless we both have options to heal I don't heal until they do... and even then I usually don't heal until they do. Yesterday I invaded a dude right next to the Drangleic Castle central bonfire and killed his White Phantom, then killed him, but the moment he died he yanked his cable. The penalties for death in this game aren't even that bad. If you're gonna yank the cable, yank it right away; don't wait to see if you lose the fight.

You don't have to worry about any of that if you just _____________git gud_______________

@jesushammer: it doesn't matter how good you are if they start spamming soul geyser on you while you spawn.

I just have no respect for people that do things like that.

I'm rocking a Str/Fth build with GMB and my character shrugs off most magic attacks. I fat roll since I'm at 99% weight, but it doesn't matter when most spells chip me for like 5% HP while blocking. Since mages like to keep distance, if one does tag me with a spell, I just duck behind a pillar and chug an estus flask then resume trundling after them with my Zweihander.

I think there is a big difference between the juvenile fun of effing with peoples game and an honest pvp battle. They aren't the same thing. That is why it is such a pity there is no way to have organized pvp like it was in Demon's. But yea, the way the game is designed the correct answer is "suck it up".

Ultimately this will of course lead to the honest pvp'ers dropping out so the kids can play among themselves.

Have fun children!