I wanna talk about Heat!

Thanks to Dan Ryckert and Jim Gaffigan for the subject.

I know everyone loves the shootout, and it's great. But the real star is the story. And the ending, far from "were you okay with the ending?", the ending is great. It's perfect.

Pacino can't stop being a cop no matter how much it hurts him. It ruins his love life and estranges him from his daughter.

But De Niro is different. He can stop anytime. He tells us all about it. He's not a dumb criminal holding up liquor stores with a born to lose tattoo. He's got a plan, just ensure you can leave everything behind at any time. He's never going back. Ever.

And he can't do it. He has everything he needs, he has plans, money and he has the woman he always wanted but didn't even meet until recently in the car with him. And all he has to do is leave.

He enters the tunnel. The light in the tunnel is playing across him, it's is going to wash him clean. He enters the tunnel a criminal on the run and he's going to exit it a new man with a new identity, a beautiful companion and head to a new place to start over. All he has to do is just drive through the tunnel and he's gone.

And he can't do it. He can't stop being a criminal. He turns around and returns to what he should run from and he pays the price for it. He couldn't escape the pitfalls of the life he said thought he had beat.

I should watch Heat again.

It's a great movie with a really good ending. The music that plays during the last few scenes before the credits is the best.

I moved this to the Heat forum.

Nailed it.

I really like Digital Devil Saga.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCuOjfyUHnA

That one scene in the movie "Heat" in the bank is pretty cool too.

@sweep said:

Man, you've outdone yourself.

Heat is kind of more a story about neurotic men than it is a crime movie. A lot of machismo and testosterone and poor decisions. It's actually not even one of my favorite Michael Mann movies.

Heat is a little overrated as Pacino had slipped into his "I'M GOING TO YELL EVERY SINGLE LINE IN THIS MOVIE COCKSUCKERS" mode, and while De Niro was still good he was a little bland in this case. However since it's a Michael Mann film it's really nice to look at and the audio is top notch so that's cool, I'd recommend Public Enemies for anyone who wants more bland-ish characters and fantastic shootouts/atmosphere.

Here's a test, do you find this scene humorous ironically or not ironically (or both, I suppose that's possible):

I watched it for the first time a few months ago and didn't really like it. It does okay as a movie about its characters, but I was a bit disappointed by how little theft there actually was, considering how everyone praises it for being one of the best heist movies. I feel like calling it a heist movie is a bit of a farce. There are far better heist movies out there that focus more on the actual heists.

The sound/music is pretty good though...

I fucking love Heat but every time I think about watching it again I remember that it's like a 3-hour commitment.

Great movie, though, even if Pacino is a little hammy.

Heat is one of those movies I know I've seen, and I know I enjoyed quite a lot, but I can't remember a single thing that happened in it. Crimey-gangster stuff I'm sure.

@sinusoidal: I with you, I only really remember the sound mixing being great.

By the by, this and Die Hard 3 were also the first (and some of the only) movies where a real Native American was able to play a real character instead of some stereotype.

The film really drags in the middle and takes fucking FOREVER to get to the actual heist. Its not a perfect film but it has some great scenes, including what might be the best Al Pacino scene of all time:

EDIT: Beaten to the punch, of course!

I am really disappointed that this thread isn't about that guy from Digital Devil Saga.

@fredchuckdave: I'm with you. I am kind of blown away by the idea that it's considered a classic. It's not even my favorite Mann film. How do you feel about The Town (2010)? Another heist film, but I don't think it overstays its welcome, and it does much more interesting things with its characters. But, in all fairness, it's probably been three or more years since I've watched either of these movies, so maybe I should revisit.

@hatking: How about Thief, which is actually kind of a heist film that is by Michael Mann?

Love that movie ... The shootout on the street is probably one of the best action sequences ever made.

@ramone: Me too cuz apparently I don't remember anything about it other than black turtle necks.

@veektarius: I don't think I've seen Thief, but I do like James Caan. It's been a while since I've watched any of Mann's films, I remember liking Collateral a bunch though.

@hatking: I think you are 100% right about The Town being a better film, in most respects.

But I think you have to account for film being a product of its time - it's an ever-changing medium and progressively better things are done with it all the time. New art is always built upon the old. The Town may be the better film, but I'm not convinced it would exist if Heat had never been made.

@laszlokovacs: I think it's fair to say that The Town was inspired by and influenced by Heat, and I guess credit can be given where it's due. But, I don't really care about influences or time periods when it comes to this stuff - good art is good art. If in a decade something isn't as enjoyable as it once was, it probably wasn't that good to begin with. I think good art should subvert time and trends, maybe I'm an idealist. And sure, things take the best ideas and attempt to build on them, but I don't think that takes away from where those ideas came from either. Some of my favorite films, and films that I'd consider some of the best ever created, are the ones that came before people built on top of them. I don't think Heat is a worse movie because people were inspired by it and made better films, I just don't think it was that great to begin with.

@hatking: The only place I'll disagree with you is on the subject of aging. I do think that time and place matters and that even if a work does not age well, that shouldn't necessarily reflect its importance to the medium. I'm not saying that makes it a thing that is objectively good still, but I do feel like it's important to acknowledge those kinds of accomplishments.

Obviously it's up to you if you like or dislike a thing and there's nothing wrong with it either way, but I don't think that something not holding up well means that it wasn't good in the first place.

@flippyandnod, I actually got the Jim Gaffigan reference. Well played. @hatking, Collateral is indeed fantastic, and The Town was much better than expected. Although I'd contend The Town was at minimum, heavily inspired by Heat, and some would say it's a flat-out ripoff of Heat. I tend to not give The Town that much credit for this reason, though it is a good film. (Edit: I see you and @laszlokovacs are on this already. I'm with Lazslo.)

Heat is a terrific movie. Everyone remembers the shootout, but there's way more to the movie than that. DeNiro/Pacino's restaurant conversation is still one of the best ever put on film. I loved that Neil was out clean if he could have just passed on getting vengeance on Waingro. Also, a part that never gets enough credit is Dennis Haysbert's character's recidivism. Man, that was really dark and probably more realistic than most people probably want to acknowledge about post-prison life. The "you want to know what they're looking at? Us." scene is a great bit of cat-and-mouse. Bonus points for brief appearances from the always awesome William Fichtner and Mykelti Williamson, and from Henry Rollins, who is just there to get comically thrown through a plate-glass window. Ashley Judd tipping off Kilmer at the end was a good scene as well.

The only part of Heat I didn't particularly enjoy were the scenes with Vincent's wife and stepdaughter Natalie Portman. I mean, they served a purpose towards his character, but seeing a woman be super-dramatic is never enjoyable (even if it's highly realistic), and the stepdaughter's suicide attempt was pretty messed-up. I'm not sure that stuff actually added anything to the film that the "I don't have a normal life" bit of the Pacino/DeNiro restaurant conversation didn't do on its own, but then again, it gave us the "but you do NOT get to watch my fucking TV!" scene, which was hilarious and made that whole part worth it.

I think the film is absolutely a classic, and deservedly so. It's inspired countless video games, movies, etc. It also features one of the best action scenes (arguably THE best shootout) of any movie, has some great dialogue and solid acting, explores some deeper themes than it had to, and told an interesting, engaging story. It's a must-see.

There are two sides to that coin. It's true that there are some movies that were good in their time but which do not seem as earthshattering to us today. Citizen Kane is an example, huge leaps and bounds cinema, but most people who don't appreciate the history of that movie don't particularly care for it. But there are also movies that people weren't able to look at objectively at the time they were created. DENIRO AND PACINO meant a lot more in 1995 than it does in 2015. Realistic shootouts were in shorter supply amidst all of the Schwarzenegger/Seagal action nonsense that inundated the genre. The negatives of the movie are, to my mind, less a result of changing social mores and advancing effects technology and more actual issues with pacing and characterization.

@laszlokovacs: I guess I don't really subscribe to the time and place thing, personally. If I like a movie, I don't quit liking it with age, unless I notice problems with it that I hadn't before, but those problems always existed. It's not like I quit liking silent films because they don't have sound. And I don't quit liking comedies because I know all the jokes, or because the jokes get referenced too much. I understand the sentiment, I guess, but I think it's pretty harsh to dismiss something because it's no longer relevant.

I'm totally with you on the letting people like and dislike what they want, I try really hard never to judge people for those choices. I've said this before, judge work not its audience. Discussing stuff like this is a lot of fun for me, so making that distinction is pretty important. And there's been plenty of times that people have pointed out unique ways to enjoy a film that has allowed me to go back and take something away where I thought there was nothing.

The thing about Heat is that it made me seriously invest a lot of time into finding an FNC to be a sear host, when I really shouldn't have been ok with dropping a couple thousand dollars on anything.

I think Collateral is is Tom Cruise's best role and a better movie, but not by much. Michael Mann's commitment to tradecraft and firearms accuracy kind of makes other action movies a bit of a slog.

I thought Heat had some good moments, but came away not that impressed when I watched it earlier this year. It is WAY TOO LONG, and the characters are kind of so-so. Good soundtrack, and some great action scenes, but just kind of overrated.

So many good actors in it:

1. Al Pacino
2. Robit De Niro
3. Batman/Jim Morrison
4. Jon Voight
5. Tom Sizemore
6. Ashley Judd
7. Magua
8. Bubba the Shrimp Restauranteur
9. The President from 24
10. The evil FBI man from Prison Break
11. Matilda from Leon
12. Moe Szyslak
13. The Captain from Monk
14. Danny Trejo
15. Henry Rollins
16. Waingro
17. Tone Loc
18. Ari Gold

Heat had a great soundtrack and dialogue. The Town wasn't bad, but it just seems over the top in comparison.

Two to the body, one to the head is the "failure drill". It's tactical/SWAT/personal defense training.

I'm in agreement on Cruise in Collateral, BTW. I think the real-life Tom Cruise is an insane assclown, but he was outstanding in that movie (and most of his movies, actually). So was Jamie Foxx, who I previously hadn't thought much of. Michael Mann does tend to do the firearms better than most.

The correct technical term is Djibouti Shooty but some people like to call it a Failure to Stop drill. Those people are just spoof'n and goof'n.

Mann should make a movie about Executive Outcomes.

Sometimes I wonder if Ronin is just the poor-man's Heat.

Heat is my favorite movie of all time, no contest. I love it so much that one time, my girlfriend and I even went to the restaurant where Vincent and Neil had their face off and got to sit at the actual table where the scene was filmed.

This is the first thing I thought of when I read that title, even though I knew deep down there was no way it was actually about him. That probably says a lot about me as a person.

Carry on.

It's mostly an overblown, self indulgent film that lasts way too long, but there are some great moments with some very quotable lines.

The only reason people still feel nostalgic for it is because it was the first time Pacino and Deniro faced off in a film and before the movie came out the advertising was all about that fact. In retrospect it's not a very interesting face off- beyond them both being very good actors.

It's not one of my favorite movies- it's not even a movie I look on fondly anymore. It's incredibly boring and I have never ever been able to watch the whole thing without falling asleep. I almost never fall asleep during a movie so that says something.

@hatking: The Town was directed by Ben Affleck and is a really good movie, thanks to Jeremy Renner being fantastic. The big issue with it is that every other transition sequence is an aerial shot of Boston, which gets to be pretty ridiculous after a while. If you want more Boston crime movies that aren't plagiarized (sorry Departed) then watch Mystic River (which is probably in my top 25 movies ever) and the Drop, both fantastic. The weirdest thing about the Town is that it was sold out in my city of 130k people in Michigan, totally baffling; but we did still wind up seeing it.

From my review (which talks about the Departed and Heat ironically, that 4 year old prescience):

"The largest criticism I've heard of this film is the enormous number of aerial shots. Whenever they go somewhere else from where they already are on screen there is only rarely an actual transition, instead this is replaced by an aerial shot of Boston. Only a few of these seem necessary, the rest become sort of comical by the end. We're going to rob this bank, aerial shot, here we are, aerial shot, car chase, aerial shot, back home! Hurray. I'm all for aerial shots (and goodness knows Heat had a hell of a lot of them too) but using them to replace scene transitions feels quite odd and humorous in retrospect. While it doesn't harm the film too much it makes you wonder if they could've made this a masterpiece with better transitions."

I re-watched Collateral recently, a film I found merely okay the first time I watched it and for some reason I liked it better the second time; I didn't like Michael Mann's commentary however as he had a lot of weird projections onto Tom Cruise's character that are much better off being left ambiguous (he implies that Jamie Foxx is right about him somehow though the movie never points to that in any way really).

@fredchuckdave: Oh yeah, it's because of The Town and Gone Baby Gone that I was pretty excited for Argo, and then pretty disappointed with it. Everybody else seemed to love it though, so more power to him. And since you mention it, thinking back about The Town, I do remember a significant amount of aerial shots. That is pretty weird. Like I mentioned, it's been years since I've watched any of these movies, maybe I should revisit The Town. I recently watched the fifth season of Louie and Jeremy Renner kills his bits in that, so I'm in the mood to see him play something more than a guy who shoots arrows.

I've never actually seen Mystic River, but it's been on my list of movies to get around to eventually, for a long time.

I wont go into it much other than to say Heat is probably one of my favorite movies of all time. @fredchuckdave is on the money though in that Mystic River and The Drop (why in the hell don't more people watch that movie, it is the best movie Gandolfini has ever made by a long shot) are both great crime films that are perhaps on par with it. Personally I really do like The Departed though regardless of any issues it may have :P. People should additionally give Cruise some respect, he is a good actor despite being in some lemons and he knows how to make a great action scene... not to mention will do his own stunts. Whatever his life choices are in the real world he is great at his professional craft. So yeah, Collateral is a great movie too.

The Town though.... It is isn't bad.... but be real. It is the Ben "I am from Boston bro" Affleck version of Heat. To say it was "inspired" is crazy, it is practically a straight up ripoff almost.

And before I forget don't snub that other Michael Mann crime movie. You know, Traffic.

@karkarov: I like the Departed too but there's no denying that it's literally a copy paste with a couple of characters added and a way more over the top villain.

Traffic was Steven Soderbergh, also it is extremely dry; I appreciate the performances but not a whole lot happens in the movie.

Creating a 3 movie that's THAT re-watchable is such an incredible feat. Heat is fucking great. An unbelievable cast of character actors and both the opening armored car robbery and the street shootout are some of the best directed action scenes you'll find anywhere. And you got one of the single most hated characters in film history. Fucking Waingro. That fucking guy.

Heat is one of the best movies.

@fredchuckdave I do not disagree that Pacino gets it wrong in some scenes. He's bad in that "GREAT ASS" scene you mention. He's bad talking to Tone Loc out in the junkyard. But he has a lot of good scenes too. He's the right man for the job, even if he doesn't get it right in every scene. If we just could have gotten Ricky Roma Pacino it'd be even better.

I don't really agree with those who say the movie drags in the middle. Sure, the action drags, but all the setup with Waingro and the smarmy businessman is important to make the ending. There's tons of character development going on so I don't see it as a waste.

No, it's not a heist movie, although it does have two good ones in it. It's really about DeNiro's character and Pacino's and how they cannot escape their nature.

Say... how did we get this far without anyone mentioning the GTA V armored car heist? You use a tow truck to tip over the armored car and IIRC you do it in about the same area of town even.

Are you guys serious about The Town? I liked it and all, but no it's not nearly what this movie is.

And yeah, the music at the end is amazing. Remember when back when Moby was great?

I recommend the soundtrack, both the song at the end (God Moving Across the Face of the Waters or something like that) and the music as they pull off the big bank heist (Force Marker) is also awesome. I love how in the movie how Force Marker ends the moment as the shooting starts. But then again everyone loves that, don't they? That no-score shootout is basically the gunplay equivalent of the chase scene from Bullit.

I have never successfully mentioned the movie Heat without someone confusing it for that shitty comedy that came out a year or two ago _ The Heat

At least they don't confuse it with that other Heat movie. You know the one with Burt Reynolds in it. It is freaking terrible.

Speaking of Heat, One Perfect Shot just tweeted this out. I just love the cinematography and locations in this flick!