Bombin' the A.M. With Scoops and the Wolf! 09/06/2013

I seem to remember being frustrated with you and deeply disagreeing with you in another 'contention' thread but unable to reply due to a browser crash...

But I did want to say I respect you very much for looking past your personal feelings to promote a contrary opinion you felt was well reasoned and intelligent. That isn't common internet fare. Top marks.

I said this on Facebook to several friends who were boycotting PAX and it bears repeating, there are around two dozen major comic book conventions that are held across the United States every year, and yet there are two conventions for video games and they are both run by Penny Arcade. So, instead of everyone boycotting and saying they hate PAX because of Krahulik's insensitivity and bullish behavior but quietly going with their head bowed in shame, step up and help do something about it. Put on a convention.

@patrickklepek said:

@neckbear said:

Saying that something offends you is a nice way of criticizing it without constructive about it. It's lazy and worthless.

I am so, so tired of seeing that pasted everywhere. And I love Stephen Fry.

So you think the argument is invalid? I have yet to hear anyone with their feelings all hurt talking about taking offense to something add anything substantial to any argument in my 34 years on this planet. If you disagree with someone's argument or actions and the best you can come up with is "that offends me" you should've just kept quiet until you could figure out WHY, and then argue that instead.

I want all game trailers from now on to have Johhny V screaming into a microphone in them.

@amafi said:

@patrickklepek said:

@neckbear said:

Saying that something offends you is a nice way of criticizing it without constructive about it. It's lazy and worthless.

I am so, so tired of seeing that pasted everywhere. And I love Stephen Fry.

So you think the argument is invalid? I have yet to hear anyone with their feelings all hurt talking about taking offense to something add anything substantial to any argument in my 34 years on this planet. If you disagree with someone's argument or actions and the best you can come up with is "that offends me" you should've just kept quiet until you could figure out WHY, and then argue that instead.

In the same speech that this comes from, he talks about how sexism, racism, and homophobia are all actively harmful things that need to be removed from society.

This is a comment section, not a dumping ground for essays. Idly dismissing someone who doesn't go into full detail of WHY they find something offensive doesn't make you sound intelligent, especially since it's usually pretty damn obvious. If you're forcing people to explain why they're offended by something and you actually already know why, then you're just being needlessly pedantic.

@kentonclay said:

@amafi said:

@patrickklepek said:

@neckbear said:

Saying that something offends you is a nice way of criticizing it without constructive about it. It's lazy and worthless.

I am so, so tired of seeing that pasted everywhere. And I love Stephen Fry.

So you think the argument is invalid? I have yet to hear anyone with their feelings all hurt talking about taking offense to something add anything substantial to any argument in my 34 years on this planet. If you disagree with someone's argument or actions and the best you can come up with is "that offends me" you should've just kept quiet until you could figure out WHY, and then argue that instead.

In the same speech that this comes from, he talks about how sexism, racism, and homophobia are all actively harmful things that need to be removed from society.

This is a comment section, not a dumping ground for essays. Idly dismissing someone who doesn't go into full detail of WHY they find something offensive doesn't make you sound intelligent, especially since it's usually pretty damn obvious. If you're forcing people to explain why they're offended by something and you actually already know why, then you're just being needlessly pedantic.

I'm aware. You'll also note his argument for why those things need to be stamped out is not that they offend him. If that's your one argument, I don't care if it's dickwolves, piss christ, or danish mohammad cartoons, you're not doing anyone any good at all, you're just whining.

Great feature!

It's kind of simple, actually. Firstly, violence is justified in a lot of forms of media and fiction. There is conflict, and extreme measures must be taken to overcome it. In better written forms of fiction, the protagonist morally struggles with it, but let's face it, this is a concept almost everybody around the world grasps, not just people who play video games.

Secondly, in a video game, we're getting a buzz out of interacting with the environment in wild ways. It's fireworks. If you are playing Sleeping Dogs, and hit a dude with the door of your car while driving by, you're hyped up. Because you had to put skill in it to pull off, because "i wonder if I could..." actually worked, because you just created this sensational (somewhat ridiculous) moment. Because the game is set up like a playground. It's NERF. It's never "yeah, I just made orphans out of this man's children! His friends sure are gonna miss him!" I've gotten that very same kind of buzz evading dudes in Mirrors Edge. It's the action, not the act.

Some games do violence poorly, so I don't think we can label all of it as OK. In the intro of Silent Hill: Downpour, you're instructed to shank a man in the prison showers. NO CONTEXT. Players were not cool with this. If you can't tell the difference between this kind of violence, and just messing with an environment in wild ways in Sleeping Dogs, then, I don't know where to go from here.

Now, what are the benefits (in character, or for the player) of virtual rape? How is it justified in game? I've never seen John McClane have to do something like that in a Die Hard movie in order to save hostages. Killer is Dead proved to us that putting unlockables behind the sleazy date sim game didn't make it any more cool with the player (in fact some became even more disgusted by it.) There is just no place in interactive fiction for the viewer to act out sexual abuse. We look down at that hentai shit for a reason. It shouldn't be seen as the same thing as Wolfenstein.

Hotline Miami isn't my cup of tea. I won't play 2 anyways, so I won't pretend to understand it. How about this compromise... When you're prompted by the game to rape, if you walk away from the scene or hesitate for a few seconds, the director yells CUT anyway. Let's be honest, the scene is nothing more than cheap shock, and they're being dishonest by not letting you know it's a movie right away (your character knows this, but you don't). If they want to keep that in though, at least don't force the player to push a button to see what NOBODY should want to see. I don't know what anybody gets out of that.

Yeah, Hotline Mami is great, you guys.

Also, I can safely say I don't give a fuck about that PAX thing at all. On both sides, it seems dumb to care too deeply about and protest the event over.

I wish this show were available on Stitcher.

Really dug the Hotline Miami-talk, I've been having a similiar discussion on a message board the last few day and wish I could relay my thoughts as well as you do.

Lots and lots of love to Scoops and the Wolf! <3

No truer words have been said about PA.

@roomrunner: You can't find any narrative reason for rape? Anywhere? In any medium?

Even if we only addressed sexuality the guy's point stands. Besides which claiming that no one gets any buzz out of the 'act' only the action is dismissing pretty much every narrative focused game. It regulates games into a toy bin. No one was enthralled by the 'action' of Walking Dead's cursor manipulation, it was all buzz from the Act. Acts which were frequently horrifying and completely socially unacceptable by our current existence. Those games won awards on 'this game FORCED me to make a fucked up decision."

Games are about living a fantasy (in the strict definition of the word) in a safe fictional space. Until someone rolls up the serious scientific research showing it causes harm in the real world video game violence, sex, and yes even rape, infidelity, and the conquest of empires are just harmless fantasies. I don't have to be into any of them to say that any fictional media is permitted to address, use or even abuse those concepts. It is the nature of art.

This whole "I'm contemplating my future involvement in PAX because I take serious issue with the latest rotten thing the Penny Arcade Guys said/did and they need to be held accountable but uhhh, PAX is so big so I'll probably just go next time anyway so I guess they don't need to be accountable, but I still want other people to contemplate this so that PAX becomes small enough for me to boycott" thing that the games press does every 3-4 months? It's really tired and increasingly disingenuous with each cycle. Either have the balls not to go or just cop to the fact that you want to go and are going no matter what vile crap these clowns say. The empty threats veiled as taking a stand just look silly at this point when there are developers actually walking the walk despite needing that con far more than journalists do.

I have not listened yet but is there a time stamp for the discussion so I can skip over it? I am so tired of these conversations and I don't want to hear it anymore.

1st. paragraph: Not for the protagonist, no. Not for the avatar you control. For villains, yes. Should also point out that narrative reason and moral justification are not the same. Unless you're making Clockwork Orange: The Video Game (maybe someone should, to drive home the point between fictional environment goofing off, and just being plain sick), I don't see what you as a player get out of performing such acts.

2nd paragraph: Given the structure of the argument presented to me (which was "should violence be thrown out with the bathwater, since sexually abusing people in a game is wrong?"), I used toybox as an example of context. Not all violence in games is the same. Walking Dead is a good example of serious and horrifying adult content in a video game, because it addresses the consequences, the fallout, and the guilt of horrible acts, not just the moments of violence. Which brings me to what I've said all along... these problems with addressing sex, violence, and gender issues in games is mostly solved by better writing. Just like in comedy, the edgier your material is, the better it has to be written/presented. Video games have a lot of edge, but rarely do they have good writing.

3rd paragraph: This sounds like an argument against censorship. Not what this is about. You and I should have the right to put out whatever we want. Sometimes the goal of it is simply to punk or troll. So be it. The public should have the right to voice their disagreement of it. This is a two way street. All this time I've only been arguing for people's right to feel uncomfortable with material without being labeled as "soft" "prude" or "narrow minded" and being told to shut up.

I want material that pushes the envelope to be out there, and I want the public to push back.

Absolutely agreed! The Alex/Patrick duo has been invariably awesome so far. I love these videos.

Patrick, you played Earthbound with a walkthrough, right? You can just do something similar for Dark Souls if it starts frustrating you. I watched a whole Let's Play of someone who had never played a Souls game before. Later on I watched my flatmate play through it himself, giving him hints when he asked for it and explaining the systems the game was poor at explaining(I also played music for him, what with the game hardly having any except for bosses). Only after that did I try it myself and I had a great time with it even if I had seen a ton of it. It probably negated some of the frustration I would have had with it otherwise.

Porco Rosso, Whisper of the Heart and Castle in the Sky for me, by the way. But most choices are good choices when it comes to Miyazaki movies, definitely Mononoke and Spirited Away.

The Black Flag videos aren't bad, I like the long sessions, but there are a ton. A couple would do. It's not just you guys' impression.

Personally, I find that the dickwolves thing has been exploited out of proportion, a lot of people get offended more from the concept than from the problem itself, it is a matter of the meaning THEY extrapolate from the initial issue.

Evidently I think everyone knows that no one is effectively promoting rape. It is possible that they are unintentionally belittling the problem of rape in society, and making it a joke, but I feel that by making it an untouchable theme, people marginalize themselves as much, antagonizing in a superficial point more than in any real meaningful level.

I feel that modern media culture has generated a certain entitlement in people that prompt the general audience into being "offended" and jump up in arms for abstract causes on principle.

In all honesty, I understand getting behind a cause, but to me, all of this seems like a shallow attempt at having a meaningful opinion. Principles are nice, but they rarely apply effectively to real life conflicts, and maybe we should be focusing on those more. No one has even mentioned that the original comic's topic was not trivializing rape, but how ridiculous mmo logic is. The mention of the dickwolves is actually an intent at extreme ridicule and not a reflection or approval of rape. But no one seems to care about that... Everyone has just exaggeratedly escalated into meaninglessness in principle.... Annoying

Hmm about Dark Souls, I feel the stress or the challenge is only 50% (or less) of the appeal. I think most people misunderstand it by thinking it is just a really challenging game, and that's its goal.

I feel that is a major misconception about what makes Dark Souls great. For me, unexpectedly, the most interesting aspect of Dark souls is how it builds narrative from exploration and gameplay. I feel that you only really get a grasp of the extent of this after you finish the -Anor Londo- section of the game. The lore is scattered in pieces, unexpectedly placed in the levels, hinted in objects, portrayed in Items, and spoken nebulously by npcs, it even builds up from the lack of guidance to the player about most systems. A few people have made this connection, but in many ways, the appeal of Dark Souls to me, is similar to the appeal of Gone Home, as different as it may seem. We as players are taxed with discovering a universe shrouded in mystery, the challenge only extends the mysterious and hopelessness of the world even further.

This whole Penny Arcade debacle is worth talking about, but maybe we should be including the progenitors of the problem in a more active dialogue rather than just call them horrible monsters so that they can retaliate and have this awful cycle continue.

Can someone give me some viewpoint alternative to my own on the Penny Arcade Kerfuffle? I've been peripherally paying attention, but the truth is that re: dickwolves, I just don't care. The position of Mike, or his detractors, or the troll squads on either side just doesn't interest me, when there's so much more TO Penny Arcade and PAX. Do people really care so much about one or two lines in a PAX panel that it ruins the whole endeavor for them? Makes them feel unsafe? It seems a little overreactive to me, but then again, I'm not the one to whom this conversation resonates.

Before we roll into this I actually really like your post. It's by and large clean, consise, makes clear points and states clear positions. You don't find that often in as heated and emotional a topic as this. There might be a bit of projecting my words onto someone else's argument, but I can completely understand that as it's a common topic that comes up

I completely agree that what we really need to advance the medium is better writing, I'll defend the licence for the artist to make what he pleases good or bad, but video games could really use some more powerful games that aren't just text (there are a great many VNs that are real solid works of art, but frankly, there's just not much 'game' there.)

The 3rd paragraph may sound like an argument against censorship, (and I guess if it comes up I'm certainly against it) but since it hasn't it's just serving it's main function which is as support to the idea that even if we can't imagine it now with our current average writing quality, I could see someone using rape in a strong narrative fashion. After all, the only other thing you can do to push people's buttons harder is to hazard a child, and we've already sorta done that already with Bioshock and suchlike.

Keep in mind I know a guy who is a psychologist that specializes in relationship troubles between couples, so he's got a huge chops in the sexual interactions of people and people's personal sexual interests in the most candid of settings. The stuff he's told me about what people are into when they open up their secret hearts is harrowing, and surprisingly (at least according to him) totally and completely healthy. Rape fantasies are shockingly common among both men and women, and he says at least that's nothing to be ashamed of and is a well studied area that has found no 'danger' or 'bleed over' into life. The main thing is to make sure whatever kink you've got you have a safe harmless outlet for it. Until you feel you might hazard someone else, you can be as horrible a person as you want to be, you can write/draw the ugliest pedo/necro/besdial/phelic stuff and indulge, even revel in it and as long as you have a 'safe' outlet that harms no one you get a clean bill of health from him.

You can probably see where I'm going with this. If I assume he's telling the truth, that implies at least that no matter what you do in a game, no matter how ugly the thing a protagonist does, in how savage and horrible a fashion, it's not 'dangerous no matter how depraved the fantasy is you're embodying. Video games are a fundamentally fictional world that has a clear demarcation away from reality. (at least for now, super serious VR will need it's own studies to clear it.) Gamers have known that for ages with violence in video games and science has backed us in that. Between the psychological sciences saying normal rape fantasies are healthy, and behavioral sciences showing there's no fundamental difference between consuming violent video games and other violent media. I don't see video games being a 'unique' media in where we have to draw lines over what and what isn't acceptable for a protagonist or any character to do. If someone thinks they've got an amazing idea that involves a video game rape. I'm skeptical, but I'll listen.

To your last point that sorta came onto the table I completely agree that people should be totally free to voice their disappointment or disapproval of a work, however I think what we're both responding to is the more extreme language of the other side. I personally don't see any reason people who are dissatisfied should 'just shut up if they don't like it' criticism is the name of the art game. but on the other hand I've also seen people attacking authors when they don't like their work.

Arguably the dickwolves thing started from that, (and yes I recognize that the PA guys completely botched their response in tone and content) and by the time it got to people threatening real people with rape and other people encouraging people to *kill mike's family* it's clearly out of hand for everyone. People should voice their criticism, but just my sense of it on twitter and the like is this is getting into some real scary digital lynch mob territory. There's these major PR scandals coming up for fairly minor infractions. Dragon's Crown as the most recent example is a T rated game. not even M. Yet you'd have thought the world was ending by the outcry over it. I've seen people arguing that if a game even implies rape exists, or puts a woman in a powerless role it's hazarding women in real life by affecting men's brains. I'm just not sure I can buy it in light of all the counter evidence in other stronger associated media. Not without some serious science and study to back it up.

Criticism is totally fair, but I feel that both sides need to tone their rhetoric down a bit to conversational levels. It's an emotional issue, but all the savagery is just pushing people away from the conversation that is clearly a conversation we still need to have. The writing in games should be encouraged to get better. We should be thinking of a wider spectrum of experience. We need to figure out how we're going to do that since most of the game designers are hetro white males who probably don't have much experience with and likely cannot write a gay/trans/woman character from a position of knowledge particularly well... *Hell most aren't even writing the hetro white male parts particularly well :V). How do we shift that demographic and why? How do we make it profitable so those game designers that offer their services reap financial rewards? It won't do us any good if the narrative becomes "Studio makes game to appeal to sexual minorities, sells 20,000 copies and closes following month"

I dunno, this has gone long and went way into the AM, I know we disagree on some fundamental points, but I hope I've explained where I come from enough that you can understand me even if you might not particularly like what I think. Even if we can't find common ground, we can perhaps agree to disagree in a civil manner.

Either way I appreciate you taking the time to listen.

I find it amusing that someone making a game or any other form of media is somehow supposed to have some deep meaning behind anything that someone takes offence to. That they have to justify it's existence and the reason they wanted to show it and how they decided to show it. Why can't the answer be because it's my game and I wanted to?

Also this supposed furor about the Hotline Miami 2 thing makes absolutely no sense. So there may or may not be a rape scene that is about to happen (see above point), then a director yells cut effectively making it a simulated simulated rape scene. Why are people upset? They weren't even depicting rape, they were depicting someone making a movie depicting rape. Rape is depicted in movies all the time a game showing not rape but a movie depicting rape is bad? Am I missing something here?

Last thing when discussing the above point @patrickklepek says that the artist has to take into account the intended meaning and should tailor his message to make sure his point is received exactly as it was meant to be delivered (impossible for everyone) but then goes on to say that the piece written about HLM2 by forgot her name (sorry) and then state that she isn't responsible for how people took her piece and their reactions.

Patrick could play Vita games anywhere in his house instead of lugging the Wii U around.

Patrick could play Vita games anywhere in his house instead of lugging the Wii U around.

@shingro: Thanks, I enjoyed reading your post as well. It can get pretty confusing and frustrating on forums at times with people hopping in and out, some being fair, others just hoping to get a GOTCHA quip in and make someone look stupid. Glad this is one of the rare times that isn't happening. And I certainly agree, the drive to shame the other side of the argument needs to dial down.

Dragon's Crown is probably something people have soapboxed on a little too hard. I'd simply just be embarrassed to be seen playing it, because of what it would say about me as a single guy who just turned thirty and plays video games. Totally can grasp that other people can enjoy it, and not be a "deviant". The problem is definitely not enough representation of women in games, not too much misrepresentation. Shit like that is sooooooo dumb, but would have less of a light on it if we had more of the alternative.

One last point, I thought The Last of Us used the implication of rape (hah, I sound like Dennis Reynolds) successfully. Again, great writing. It was clear to an adult, and also something probably a more naive mind could not pick up, but still be wrapped in the drama and conflict of the situation. It wasn't used as shock, and I thought they didn't make it so obvious so that it would stir up enough feelings/memories of the viewer to make them stop playing.

But having the player take part in something like that... man... personally, it seems impossible to ask that of a player and for it to come off as justified. If a game ever pulls it off, that would certainly be something. It feels like a 2+2=5 in my head though.

Alright, time for football. It's been real, duder.

-Cheers

Thank you!

I want to marry you. I've tried writing basically this exact rant multiple times, but it keeps getting longer and nonsensical. I wish someone like you could sit down with people like Christine Love (whose work I love, but attitude towards Mike leave me confused and angry) and have a reasonable conversation or something. The kneejerk reactions of "oh Mike said something new? WELLLP time to fire up the sexist bigot sirens and grab our pitchforks" just baffle me completely. I mean, I guess it's a good excuse to get up on your soapbox and preach (and admittedly, the initial reactions to The Sixth Slave are what got me to look at how I was overusing and devaluing the word "rape" when, like, playing video games [I was like 19]), but seriously, come on... Mike is an asshat from time to time, but he's not, like, the Westboro Baptist Church or something, which is what everyone seems to want to make him out to be.

really, a shitty comic does a rape joke and That's the first time you have problem with rape or ever mention it?What about the prison rape or the involuntary exams when are you talking about those REAL RAPE

I like to finish the games I'm playing before jumping into the next one...I def want to play Persona 4, it's on the office Vita on my desk!

I don't think anyone apart from the criminally insane and actual rapists condone rape. I don't think anyone in any of these arguments is saying that, It's whether we can use the word rape for its obvious incongruity in a comedic context. I don't think the strip was bad and in any event it was highlighting, hypocritical nature of role playing in an MMO's rather than glorifying rape.

Penny-Arcade are in the former of that argument, the initial joke was not laughing at rape victims and in no way condoned rape.

The responses after that were just plain-old bad P.R. especially with the internet gaming community being especially sensitive right now as it tries to adapt to a more inclusive world, maybe we are still finding what our correct levels of outrage should be for any given situation? But they did bring all this on their own heads.

The world has many problems, especially with rape, convictions are low and it is a horrible crime, but I honestly don't think anyone in this situation, except the more puerile and ignorant are seriously saying rape is a good thing?

I think the term rape culture is itself a bit loopy and dishonest. Rape is criminal. This is a VERY widely held view. It is not easy to find anyone who supports rape as a good or tolerable thing. Portrayals of rape or mentions of rape or jokes about rape really do not constitute declaring a pro-rape position or membership in a rape culture that supposedly somehow enables, propagates, promotes, and or normalizes rape. Do we make up strange stories about the existence and transmission of a Bank Robbery Culture or Arson Culture to explain the existence and persistence of those antisocial and violent behaviors? Is a game about hijacking cars really trying to make people embrace and celebrate the car jacker culture? Is a fantasy about promoting a reality?

"In the same speech that this comes from, he talks about how sexism, racism, and homophobia are all actively harmful things that need to be removed from society."

Removed how exactly?

@djm389: Well said. In this entire debacle, neither side has put forth a position I find persuasive or compelling. Too much fingerpointing, not enough inquiry.

America Fuck yeah, rape joke ends with nukes dropping. Talking bout 1st world problems lol.

It looks like Alex has lost weight. Good job, man.

I still don't understand this pax controversy! Can anyone link me to an article on it cause from what I heard he said something bad. but what~!!!

@neckbear said:

Saying that something offends you is a nice way of criticizing it without being constructive about it. It's lazy and worthless.

Jesus Christ, how many times is this thing going to get posted? It doesn't even hold up in most situations.

Black Guy: Hey, please don't say the n-word, it offends me.

Stephen Fry Quote: So fucking what.

Gay Dude/Gay Chick: Hey, please don't say the f-word, it offends me.

Stephen Fry Quote: So fucking what.

The quote was said during a debate in regards to the UK seeking to punish people who blasphemed. It was said in defense of comedians mocking an institution that oppresses women, rapes children, and lobbies to have homosexuals denied equal rights. Logic and reason are anathema to religion, which is why Fry is making an appeal to logos instead of pathos in the quote.

Using it to defend every dipshit who says hateful things, or makes other people feel small is not the proper context.