Someone explain Protoss and vs. Protoss to me

#1 Posted by YI_Orange (1172 posts) -

Before I took a 5-6 season break from SC 2 I had an all right understanding of all the races, both playing them and versing them, but recently getting back into SC 2 I'm at a complete loss when it comes to Protoss. I've been watching GSL and NASL, but for some reason protoss isn't clicking as much as the other races(MKP basically changed TvZ for me).

This is important to me though since I like to play random, but as it is, that leaves 5 possible matchups I don't really understand. I get the basic late game unit comps, but outside of that I don't know much. I'll tell you what I know about each of the matchups.

PvP - I know how to 4gate. I know 3 stalker, 2 gate, robo, expand. If that's an actual build and not something I made up. I know late game unit comp is primarily zealot, archon, colossus.

PvZ - I know how to FFE into a 7 gate, ~3 immortal timing. That's it.

PvT - I know late game is all about proper High Templar and Colossus use. Lots of zealots, some archons. That's it.

ZvP - I know to double expand at the start but be aware of cannon rushes. I know to max out on roach/ling before the timing I described earlier hits, because it's probably going to. Late game is infestor/brood lord and whatever other support can afford.

TvP - Late game is mostly marine, marauder, medvac. Ghosts and Vikings as appropriate. Drops are really important.

As you can see, one of the biggest problems is expansion timings. Aside from ZvP and and PvZ I don't know when to take the natural, and aside from ZvP I don't know when to take the 3rd. I only know one timing attack and I only know late game unit comp. Even for TvP I don't know the proper balance of marines to marauders at various stages of the game. So please, help me understand Protoss so I can be not afraid to ladder anymore.

#2 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

4gate is a trash all in.

If you have map where ur main has a small ramp/choke 1FF and you hold against anything.

I 3gate robo every pvp and I win most of the time vs dia P's... it allows you to do drops, have detection and get immortals. Do that build and play alot and you'll have a better grasp on it.

You can only expand if you have an advantage in the game, if they see you have expanded quickly... they can just come and kill you. 3gate robo with immortals and getting a prism can allow you to warm in there main and attack the front...

#3 Posted by Ben_H (3439 posts) -

PvP in a nutshell: Take a coin. Flip it. Sometimes you will win, sometimes you will lose. In reality, no one wins PvP because it is such a bad matchup. It's either done in 5 minutes or it drags out for 45 minutes. Either way it sucks. 
 
@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

No it isn't. No one knows how to hold it anymore because it has been out of the metagame for so long and everyone plays really greedy now. I 10gate 4gate every PvP and have around a 70% winrate at diamond level. A lot of people don't even get a sentry to prevent it anymore so you just push with a stalker and zealot while mineral walking two probes in, throw down 3 pylons and win (that is if they scout your hidden probe in their base, which many don't anymore. In that case you just get a build order win).
#4 Posted by Jace (1094 posts) -

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

#5 Posted by killacam (1278 posts) -

oh god... i was just going to get back into starcraft but now.. i dont even..

#6 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

Sorry, but if you can't hold a 4gate and your not playing on tal'drim what ever you where doing, you where doing it wrong.

4gate is pretty easy to scout and the timing of it is so well documented that its super easy to hold, and unless your playing in and around masters/GM there isn't a meta game.

#7 Posted by YI_Orange (1172 posts) -

@Jace said:

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

Most of what he said makes sense to me, and I do tend to agree that 4gate isn't very good. Yeah, if people stop playing for it then it can work and it can punish people trying to take expansions too quickly, but I doubt it will work anymore on anyone who is even somewhat looking for it.

@killacam: Don't be scared away. This is just me. I'm way into starcraft and super competitive so I like to be good at things, and playing every race makes it pretty difficult. The GB community for SC 2 needs it's second wind though. We need more tournaments!

#8 Posted by Jace (1094 posts) -

@YI_Orange: 4 gate works in every NA ladder up to GM. xSixMaximus has proven that time and time again.

#9 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

you can't fe in pvp unless your in bronze playing against people who dont scout.

#10 Posted by Ben_H (3439 posts) -
@YI_Orange said:

 The GB community for SC 2 needs it's second wind though. We need more tournaments!

It will return with HOTS, I'm sure. Just keep in mind for every person who continues to play now, there will probably be 5 who jump back in when HOTS comes out. A lot of people are taking a break. 
 
@baldgye said:

you can't fe in pvp unless your in bronze playing against people who dont scout.

It's actually happening more frequently at the pro level now, though still not all that often. But they can do it because they have much better understanding than any diamond or master protoss and can tell if their opponent has the potential to all-in them or not.
#11 Edited by baldgye (757 posts) -

@Ben_H said:



@baldgye said:

you can't fe in pvp unless your in bronze playing against people who dont scout.

It's actually happening more frequently at the pro level now, though still not all that often. But they can do it because they have much better understanding than any diamond or master protoss and can tell if their opponent has the potential to all-in them or not.

I've only seen someone FE in a PvP at pro level once, and it failed hard and that was GSL CodeS and that was on Antiga Shipyard which is bigger than any map I've actually seen played at pro level.

#12 Posted by haffy (674 posts) -

@Jace said:

@YI_Orange: 4 gate works in every NA ladder up to GM. xSixMaximus has proven that time and time again.

Something working doesn't mean it's viable. I could probably do baneling busts every game to masters on NA. Doesn't mean it's particularly good.

4 gate basically relays on doing early damage, otherwise you're behind in tech and gas income, which makes it much harder to defend an expansion.

Also OP in ZvP if your maxed out army can't do damage to the Protoss you need to back off and spine crawler up to have a safer way of getting a broodlord/infester army out. If you lose your army without doing much damage your going to be really vulnerable to attacks.

#13 Posted by Jace (1094 posts) -

@haffy said:

@Jace said:

@YI_Orange: 4 gate works in every NA ladder up to GM. xSixMaximus has proven that time and time again.

Something working doesn't mean it's viable. I could probably do baneling busts every game to masters on NA. Doesn't mean it's particularly good.

4 gate basically relays on doing early damage, otherwise you're behind in tech and gas income, which makes it much harder to defend an expansion.

Also OP in ZvP if your maxed out army can't do damage to the Protoss you need to back off and spine crawler up to have a safer way of getting a broodlord/infester army out. If you lose your army without doing much damage your going to be really vulnerable to attacks.

I understand what a 4 gate is, thanks. And if a build can keep you near top 8 masters, how much better does it need to work to be "viable" in your book?

Oh, anything but standard isn't viable right? Yeah, ok.

#14 Posted by haffy (674 posts) -

Play 10 games standard vs the same person.

Play 10 4 gates vs the same person.

Which is better? Just because something works on ladder doesn't mean it's good. The second you start playing people who you've played before it turns into shit.

#15 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

@Jace said:

@haffy said:

@Jace said:

@YI_Orange: 4 gate works in every NA ladder up to GM. xSixMaximus has proven that time and time again.

Something working doesn't mean it's viable. I could probably do baneling busts every game to masters on NA. Doesn't mean it's particularly good.

4 gate basically relays on doing early damage, otherwise you're behind in tech and gas income, which makes it much harder to defend an expansion.

Also OP in ZvP if your maxed out army can't do damage to the Protoss you need to back off and spine crawler up to have a safer way of getting a broodlord/infester army out. If you lose your army without doing much damage your going to be really vulnerable to attacks.

I understand what a 4 gate is, thanks. And if a build can keep you near top 8 masters, how much better does it need to work to be "viable" in your book?

Oh, anything but standard isn't viable right? Yeah, ok.

#16 Posted by NickL (2247 posts) -

@Jace said:

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

4 gate is trash now, assuming you are playing a competent opponent. So basically it will work 80% of the time on ladder.

#17 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

@NickL said:

@Jace said:

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

4 gate is trash now, assuming you are playing a competent opponent. So basically it will work 80% of the time on ladder.

LOL unless your below gold, 4gate wont work 80% of the time in PvP

#18 Posted by NickL (2247 posts) -

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@Jace said:

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

4 gate is trash now, assuming you are playing a competent opponent. So basically it will work 80% of the time on ladder.

LOL unless your below gold, 4gate wont work 80% of the time in PvP

I don't play much anymore and don't care to keep up with the current PVP metagame so I 4gate every PVP and win 80% of my games. I bounce between platinum and diamond. Maybe you just need to 4gate better.

#19 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

@NickL said:

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@Jace said:

@baldgye said:

4gate is a trash all in.

OP, I'd disregard everything this guy says from here on out if I were you.

4 gate is trash now, assuming you are playing a competent opponent. So basically it will work 80% of the time on ladder.

LOL unless your below gold, 4gate wont work 80% of the time in PvP

I don't play much anymore and don't care to keep up with the current PVP metagame so I 4gate every PVP and win 80% of my games. I bounce between platinum and diamond. Maybe you just need to 4gate better.

LOL I'd like to see your stats to back that empty claim.

I'm in top plat or was when I last had time to 1v1 so mostly only played dia's and I won nearly all of the PvP's I played becasue I didn't 4gate. There is no meaningful metagame below masters.

#20 Posted by NickL (2247 posts) -

@baldgye: Good for you, you are in the 20% of competent opponents then. Go 4 gate a few people and I bet you win most of them.

#21 Edited by baldgye (757 posts) -

@NickL said:

@baldgye: Good for you, you are in the 20% of competent opponents then. Go 4 gate a few people and I bet you win most of them.

I wont against people who can play. I'm sure you do great against trash p's who don't do an actual build, but most of the P's I play on ladder do know what a build is and can make a sentry....

and OP if you want the best build in PvP look for the 3 stalker rush build, not only does it totally crush a 4gate before it can even start, it gives you total map control and will allow you to either get a robo or expand depending on how far ahead you get

#22 Posted by NickL (2247 posts) -

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@baldgye: Good for you, you are in the 20% of competent opponents then. Go 4 gate a few people and I bet you win most of them.

I wont against people who can play. I'm sure you do great against trash p's who don't do an actual build, but most of the P's I play on ladder do know what a build is and can make a sentry....

and OP if you want the best build in PvP look for the 3 stalker rush build, not only does it totally crush a 4gate before it can even start, it gives you total map control and will allow you to either get a robo or expand depending on how far ahead you get

A monkey can make a sentry. That doesn't mean it will and it doesn't mean it will use it right.

#23 Edited by baldgye (757 posts) -

@NickL said:

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@baldgye: Good for you, you are in the 20% of competent opponents then. Go 4 gate a few people and I bet you win most of them.

I wont against people who can play. I'm sure you do great against trash p's who don't do an actual build, but most of the P's I play on ladder do know what a build is and can make a sentry....

and OP if you want the best build in PvP look for the 3 stalker rush build, not only does it totally crush a 4gate before it can even start, it gives you total map control and will allow you to either get a robo or expand depending on how far ahead you get

A monkey can make a sentry. That doesn't mean it will and it doesn't mean it will use it right.

hey I'm sure your gosu and 4gate 4life no worries bro I belive your sick 80% w/l ratio in pvp as your a total BOSS

Though, it really should be noted that if you 4gate properly, its an all in cheese that can, if scouted be defended as easily as a 6pool.

#24 Posted by NickL (2247 posts) -

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@baldgye said:

@NickL said:

@baldgye: Good for you, you are in the 20% of competent opponents then. Go 4 gate a few people and I bet you win most of them.

I wont against people who can play. I'm sure you do great against trash p's who don't do an actual build, but most of the P's I play on ladder do know what a build is and can make a sentry....

and OP if you want the best build in PvP look for the 3 stalker rush build, not only does it totally crush a 4gate before it can even start, it gives you total map control and will allow you to either get a robo or expand depending on how far ahead you get

A monkey can make a sentry. That doesn't mean it will and it doesn't mean it will use it right.

hey I'm sure your gosu and 4gate 4life no worries bro I belive your sick 80% w/l ratio in pvp as your a total BOSS

LOL i didn't come here to brag. I'd prefer people knew how to play right but they don't. I just exploit it to get out of a matchup that I couldn't care less about. I would still 4gate even if it won 20% of the games because I hate pvp that much.

#25 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

Yeah and its obvious why you hate it, you have no grasp of it.

#26 Posted by YI_Orange (1172 posts) -

What about TvP? Anyone have any insight there?

#27 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

@YI_Orange said:

What about TvP? Anyone have any insight there?

have to say from the P side, the only time that T becomes a problem is when they actually use there bio how it should be, constant dropping and mineral line harass, sniping ups... if you can keep the P on a low gas count and slow down his ups you will be ahead when they eventually push out

#28 Posted by Ben_H (3439 posts) -
@baldgye said:

Yeah and its obvious why you hate it, you have no grasp of it.

Or he genuinely hates that matchup. I can't stand PvP either. There is nothing fun about it. All it ends up being is both players sitting in their respective bases until 200/200 because they can't attack each other or they'll be taking too much of a risk. Plus if 4gating is working for him, why stop? He plays to win, not to follow some stupid hidden rule set that most of the community seems to think is the required way to play the game.
#29 Posted by baldgye (757 posts) -

@Ben_H said:

@baldgye said:

Yeah and its obvious why you hate it, you have no grasp of it.

Or he genuinely hates that matchup. I can't stand PvP either. There is nothing fun about it. All it ends up being is both players sitting in their respective bases until 200/200 because they can't attack each other or they'll be taking too much of a risk. Plus if 4gating is working for him, why stop? He plays to win, not to follow some stupid hidden rule set that most of the community seems to think is the required way to play the game.

I actually enjoy PvP.

And I opened with 4gate is an all-in trash build, becasue it is. It's like 6pooling and winning games, just becasue you win dsn't make the build anyless trash. Defending 4gate and making out that its anything but a dumb all-in is its self dumb.

The last time I 4gated was actually in PvT when the T went CC first on a map thats too small to defend cc first.. and it was 'super effective' dsnt make it any less of an all in...

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